Comments by chitownlawyer (page 18)

Well, if only a lawyer could come up with that explanation, at least I come by it honestly....

BookGuy: Intentionally or inadvertently, you have hit upon one of the problems with having been married in your younger years (as most people are) to a close contemporary (as most people are), and wanting to maintain an active sex life--from a sexual point of view, how do you deal with your spouse's aging body. My wife takes good care of herself, and as a young woman had a 6-7 face, but an 8-9 body. And, if you compare her to women her own age, those statistics probably still apply. But the fact is, for women in particular, gravity bats last, and all things go down in the end. (In all fairness, she may feel the same about me and my body). I tried for years to get her to blow me, and about four years gave up when it occurred to me: I didn't WANT a blow job from a forty year old woman. I'm not sure what the answer is to the conundrum that you raised, but it certainly struck a chord with me.

Jennifer Love Hewitt, just barely beating out Salma Hayak (only because I think that JLH would be more congenial to live with when you weren't in the sack. I find them equally sexy.)

Yes, FONDL, if one is going to take an active role, there does come a "point of no return." However, in my case, the dancer has always taken the initiative in that direction. But, even under those circumstances, once you accept, you have crossed the line.

The David Mamet film from 1988, "House of Games." Apart from the title, it involved a world in which everybody was scamming everyone else, no one was honest with anyone else, and nothing was as it appeared to be.

Yes. my only OTC experiences so far have involved a dancer who, within the confines of the club was a wholeome, small town girl, in fact a little on the prudish side. I certainly wouldn't say that she was a "whore" in the hotel room, but she WAS IN the hotel room, doing most things that customarily go on there, which obviously indicates a substantial degree of bad girl-dom.

I have had the concerns that DougS mentioned. None of them have ever come to fruition. I still laugh out loud when I think of the delicate pas de deux my OTC and I engaged in at the beginning of our first hotel meeting, in an effort to determine that the other was not a cop. For me, the downsides of OTC have been along the lines listed by Chandler. They are largely the result of trying to coordinate moderately complicated logistics with a member of a group of people who are collectively impulsive, disorganized, and moody (obviously, there are exceptions to this rule). Most of the problems mentioned by DougS can be avoided by discretion and caution, and by keeping the upper hand in arrangements. For example, if you are concerned about getting the shit beaten out of you by a boyfriend, meet in a public place, then adjourn together to a hotel that is unidentified to the OTC girl until the last minute. With respect to to entrapment, the key is to let the dancer take the lead on proposing arrangements. I know that some will say that a passive approach will never lead to a bed. However, I would repond that it is not entirely passive--you can lead the conversation by inf erence. Second, I doubt that very few dancers are "seduced" into OTC.. I suspect that they come to an OTC meeting with every intention of what will happen. Personal to Chandler: Is your e-mail down? I keep getting messages bounced back.

I like porn that features some of my favorite brunette actresses, like Christy Canyon, Erica Bella, Liza Harper, or Nikki Dial. I like to see them getting fucked from behind, sucking dick, or doing Russian. (If it involves Liza, there will be anal) Therefore, I don't mind the presence of a male, but I expect he will play little role other than bearer of the penis on which the star works her magic. There doesn't have to be a lot of dialog, but if there is, and it is good, that is a plus. One of the few porn DVDs I own is Christy's "Sex Secrets of a Mistress." When she has just finished blowing the male lead, looks up at him and says, "I don't want to love you, Jack--I just want to fuck you," it almost makes me then and there bust a nut. Some of the BangBus videos are good, depending on the looks of that week's "victim." There is one involving a "white trash" blonde named "Sheila" that is the equivalent of Viagra in the disc drive. The presence of an attractive dark-haired girl is key. Since my tastes run from Christy Canyon to Liza Harper, boob size is obviously not key. Girl/Girl always seems contrived to me, and is therefore not interesting. Bukake does not nothing for me, nor do gang bangs.

In "Casino", Sharon Stone's character is a high-class call girl, but I have sometimes wondered if the sad end she comes to in the movie is sometimes experienced by a substantial number of dancers.

I think that BookGuy is on to something with his explanation about women tending to decisive types. I also think that Chandler is right about the dangerous type of excitement that can be involved with "bad" boys. The bottom line is that I can't be too critical of the women with those tastes, because as I've gotten older, I've developed increasing tastes for "bad" girls. I think that's why I hang in strip clubs so much.

Do you think that there are greater dangers of STD's from strippers than from any other woman you might end up with (unless she just walked out of a convent)? I remember as a young lawyer practicing in a major metropolitan area, there were a lot of "dinner whores" and other young women who fucked around A LOT, and probably ended up fucking as many men as would a dancer who did the occasional, but not frequent, OTCs. OF course, those girls were lawyers, bond traders, etc., so it didn't draw the looks that normal

I think that there might also be something of a "mothering" instinct and desire to save the man that might be at work here.

This one worked last week: A couple gets married. They are very religious. Not only have they not had sex before marriage, they haven't even seen each other naked. On their honeymoon, the husband takes off his shoes and socks. They wife sees his toes, and screams in fear. The husband says, "When I was a small boy, I had toe-lio." The wife says, "You mean poliio." "No, toe-lio. It's a disease of the toes. It isn't contagious or genetic. It just makes my toes look weird." The wife calms down. The husband takes off his pants. The wife screams again. The husband says, "When I was a small boy, I had knee-sles" The wife says, "You mean measles." "No, knees-les." It's a disease of the knees. It's not contagious or genetic. It just makes my knees look gross." The wife again calms down. The husband takes off his underwear. The wife takes one look and says: "Don't tell me. Small-cocks."

The very first dancer that I ever got a dance from, at the very first club I went to, told me during the pre-dance SS that her boyfriend was a Houston police officer. As naive as I was then, even I understood that she was telling me to stay in line. She then proceeded on to the most nasty dances I have ever had!!! Actually I like it when strippers lie, because it makes it very clear to me that this is all fantasy--it helps keep me out of RIL territory. I see SCs as Disneyland for grown men. As much as you like to play along with the game while you are in the Enchanted Kingdom, when you walk out, the fantasy is over. Once a dancer told me that she was going to graduate school in a field that had been my major in college. I asked her some extremely arcane questions about the field--and she knew the answers to all of them. Not all dancer conversation is stripper shit, I guess.

My attitude is, it's pure fantasy. As someone on another board says, "this is all fiction." That's how I feel about strip clubs. If a dancer ever wanted to meet me outside the club, I would consider "the real world" to start with our first meeting outside the club. But anything that happens inside the club should be considered 100% fiction--including a dancer's promise to meet you in the real world. Harsh, but I think that's the only realistic way to look at is. So, to answer the presenting question, I would not be mad/feel betrayed if my ATF (and I have had them) left the club and cut ties. I might be mad at myself for feeling betrayed. Even with my ATFs, my attitude is like that toward an actor/actress who plays my favorite character on a tv show/ in a movie...it's all an act.

About $400.00, although I usually end up spending between $250 and $300. I am always willing to spend the whole wad, but it takes good cause, and hasn't happened since my ATF retired. I make it a rule never to take plastic into a club, although I broke the rule on one occasion when I happened to run into a strip club in a distant city that looked interesting, so I made a very rare unplanned trip. Fortunately, it was in a small town, and the "foreign ATM" fee was no greater than anywhere else--$1.50 or $2.00, as I recall.

FONDL: I'll ignore your gratituous slur against my high professional calling, only because I like you and your take on matters concerning our mutual hobby is generally so accurate... As a writer above said, the opinion held that local governments can take ("condemn") private property for mixed private-public uses, like increasing the tax base through a shopping center development. Before this case, there was a respectable argument that private land could only be taken for solely public uses, like road expansion. In a marginal way, this might make some strip clubs vulnerable to condemnation, if they are located in run-down, arguably "blighted" areas, and the local government can get a developer to agree to take the parcel of property that a club is on, and develop it for ostensibly more "public-oriented" usages. By the way, this won't have any effect in states that have their own constitutional prohibition against the State taking any property for private use. I know of several in this category. That's enough law for a Friday afternoon.

I guess I evaluate my experience with dancers in two ways: First, when it comes to out-and-out larceny, such as a dancer trying to lift my tiproll from my pocket, that has definitely never happened. Nor have I had to deal with quasi-dishonest things such as inflated dance counts or outrageous puffery to get me into a VIP/Champagne room, etc. Second, in terms of the integrity of the exchange, I have always liked the straightforward nature of the transaction: I bring to the transaction: Money (and, I suppose, some minimal level of social grace and hygiene). The dancer brings: a hot body with little or no clothing on it, and a willingness to rub same all over me, and a moderate level of social grace. The transaction continues by mutual agreement, or until one of the parties no longer brings the above commodities to the table. It's so clear that it could come out of a Milton Friedman book on Economics, or out of a calculus textbook.. No subtlety, no nuance, no guesswork. In the above exchange, the dancer will never tell you: You said you would call... If you loved me, you would know... Do have to do everything myself... She is MY mother, after all... etc., etc. A big part of my attraction to dancers is the fact that the arrangement is a very simple and straightforward one, unlike relationships with women in real life. That being said, I don't use my time in strip clubs to substitute for relationships in "real life," just as a break from them.

My personal perspective (Not to be taken as legal advise by anyone reading this) is that the main concern of bouncers/LE is drug dealing, and they aren't prowling around looking for guys with John Thomas hanging out. The worst that could happen would be that you might be asked to leave the club by the management, which should be embarrassing. However, I've practiced law long enough that it would take much more than that to embarrass me. The other thing that could happen would be that you could be charged with public indecency, which would be a misdemeanor, that you could likely plead down to something like "disorderly conduct." The likelihood of any of the above happening is quite small, and the dancer in question likely isn't doing this for the first time, so knows the necessary components of discretion. To use the standard that I apply to assess the real (not paranoid) likelihood of something bad happening: when was the last time that you were in a club, and a guy got kicked out for _anything_? the only times that I've ever seen anyone kicked out of a club was for shorting a dancer on money (argument over dance count...and I knew from firsthand observation that he was wrong), and a guy who cold-cocked another patron, who was in a wheelchair...and the assailant was an off-duty cop. To further extend the analysis, when was the last time you were in a club and a patron was arrested for _anything_? When was the last time you saw a police officer in a club (including undercover who invoked his authority)?

My personal perspective (Not to be taken as legal advise by anyone reading this) is that the main concern of bouncers/LE is drug dealing, and they aren't prowling around looking for guys with John Thomas hanging out. The worst that could happen would be that you might be asked to leave the club by the management, which should be embarrassing. However, I've practiced law long enough that it would take much more than that to embarrass me. The other thing that could happen would be that you could be charged with public indecency, which would be a misdemeanor, that you could likely plead down to something like "disorderly conduct." The likelihood of any of the above happening is quite small, and the dancer in question likely isn't doing this for the first time, so knows the necessary components of discretion. To use the standard that I apply to assess the real (not paranoid) likelihood of something bad happening: when was the last time that you were in a club, and a guy got kicked out for _anything_? the only times that I've ever seen anyone kicked out of a club was for shorting a dancer on money (argument over dance count...and I knew from firsthand observation that he was wrong), and a guy who cold-cocked another patron, who was in a wheelchair...and the assailant was an off-duty cop. To further extend the analysis, when was the last time you were in a club and a patron was arrested for _anything_? When was the last time you saw a police officer in a club (including undercover who invoked his authority)?

RL, what's this judgmental attitude about FAILED MUSICIANS? Life is a journey, not a destination. They are not failures, they are merely still on the journey to success. And they have succeeded in two crucial ways that you have not...they are being supported by a dancer, and they are (presumably), sleeping with that same dancer. There are many paths to the mountaintop, Grasshopper. (Sorry, let's make that....There are MANY paths to the MOUNTAINTOP, GRASSHOPPER.)

Have you ever seen a dancer who was "gruntled"? It's not a pretty sight.

Since posting the original question starting this thread, I decided to do some original research, and asked a dancer. She told me that she would like it...the cash wins out. My tiproll normally includes about twenty one dollar bills...I'm now debating whether I need to drastically increase that portion of the portfolio. Not a statistically significant sample, obviously, but it does go to the source.

Re: "I was talking to one of the dancers at the time and she told me that the club would pick up and pay all of the citations." I'm not sure that this really addresses the issue. Even if the club "picks up" all the citations, these aren't like parking tickets, guys. If the citation is simply paid, and depending on the offense charged, you might not want a conviction for it on your record.

What keeps you from asking for what you want? Opinions or Insight? Actually, bouncers. Seriously, it is generally not necessary to be so direct about it. Most dancers drop fairly subtle (or unsubtle) hints. For example, in my own experience: *The dancer who told me, as part of our pre-dance conversation, that she lived with a Houston Police Officer. Whether or not that was true (and I quite seriously doubt it), she was signalling that, if I got a dance from her, much below-the-belt merriment would NOT follow; *The dancer who asked if I wanted to go into VIP with her, and, with no prompting from me, explained that, "It's basically like dry sex." She was signalling that, if I got a dance from her, much below-the-belt merriment WOULD (and did) follow.): *The dancer who approached me while I was sitting at the tiprail and, while we were sitting there, took off my tie, unbuttoned my shirt halfway to the waist, and had unhooked my belt when I hustled her into VIP. A blind, deaf man with an IQ of 45 could tell what she was signalling. So, you just have to be alert to these subtle non-verbal cues By the way, I agree entirely with something that a poster above said: The princess-types who just sit there at the table with you, making no conversation, just waiting for a clock to run down until you buy a dance to relieve the monotony....pure air..