davids give it up man, these guys aren't going to change their mind

AN: Didn't see anything indicating haircuts for kings were painful.

I guess I'll just leave it to the readers of the board to consult the information and decide for themselves if it's more likely that the king was scared of a haircut because it would hurt or whether he just did not have time for idle chit-chat of an insincere/uninteresting barber.

I think I first read it in a Roman history, can't recall, but the reference to the barbers bronze razors stuck with me. Here's an online reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber_shop

AN: reference?

Even Romans were still using bronze for razors and scissors. Just because iron was around doesn't mean they could afford to use it for everything.

Oh, and to my larger point re: haircuts. A haircut and shave was not a trivial or even pleasant matter in ancient times. I dunno about you, but my lapdances are usually pleasant experiences, therefore i find your analogy inappropriate. And no, I am not interested in any further discussion of Philip of Macedon's razor or scissors.

I don't even remember what davids was trying to change. I thought he once stated that strippers were wonderful people or something like that. I'll agree that most strippers are very nice to me.

Davids: And by the same token the dancers I talk to would think you where a bitter customer. Probably a newbie that got burned and fell in love with a girl in a g-string only to find out that the fantasy ends at the front door. Get over it Davids, move on.

Take what you can get.

I may never stop...

I still remember Davids' promise to leave the board for a few months. It was a good few hours.

I'll go away once people stop asking me to. ;-)

Yoda: I'll leave it for the readers of this board to decide for themselves whose opinions are more valid.

Certainly the strippers and other club employees I talk to about the culture think that I am on track and know what I am talking about, so if some stripper worshippers (dupes) don't agree with me, it's no big concern to me.

It's no concern to you? Then why don't you just go away?

Davids: I'll ask you again. What makes your opinion of dancers any more true or false than mine?

AN: The Iron age was well under way in Europe by the time of Phillip and scissors had already been invented. Enter "iron age" and "history of scissors" into google to confirm.

Do you have a reference that hair was cutting using bronze instruments which weren't scissors around Phillip's time?

Yoda: The two big fantasies are:

1) strippers are no more likely to lie, steal, and scam than any other group of
2) even if they do lie, steal, or scam it is justified because
a) of the environment they work in
b) if they did that would mean they weren't wonderful and since you continuously say they are that would mean you wrong, and everyone knows that someone with a name like "Yoda" is too wise to ever be wrong.

One more thing. Remember that Philip of Macedon's haircuts probably involved scissors of questionable sharpness made of bronze in the best case scenario. Requesting silence in what was most likely a painful process hardly applies to a lapdance... in my case at least.

Davids: As usual you keep insisting that I say all strippers are angelic and can do no wrong. That is simply not the case. My stand has always been that, as a group, dancers are no more or less honest than most people. Your "statistics" and credibility ratings make for fascinating fiction....but that's abut all they are.

It's very convenient for you to ignore that part of a dancers job is to be nice to a guy that she may not give the time of day to outside of the club. Weather you like it or not, that's the gig. Any guy that doesn't understand that it's all make-beleive shouldn't be going to strip clubs with a full wallet.

DavidS. Well we obviously have the bar set vastly differently. When I go in to a club I expect a certain ammount of flattery, ass kissing if you like, a certain ammount of "I was having such a terrible day till you came in" and the like. I consider that all part of the atmosphere. If all I wanted were a quick grope I could get that and more from an escort. I like the fantasy aspect, being pursued and flattered by girls who are half my age, but I know it's a fantasy so I don't indulge any more than the club visits. I also seek out the more seasoned dancers who know the game and don't get too caught up in the idea of landing the big fish. In other words the ones who have been at it long enough to realize it's a job, and like all jobs keeping customers happy and coming back is the best long term strategy. With a few simple rules in mind, and a grip on reality you can avoid the scams pretty easily (based on what you define as a scam). I will admit there may be some intangibles. I didn't start visiting clubs till my '30's, but there are plenty of variables for everyone to endlessly argue. Strip clubs are a culture, and it sounds like you expect the same rules outside to apply inside. If that were true we wouldn't enjoy them so much.

AN: I don't like insincere waiters or bartenders or taxi drivers or anything either. Being polite is fine. Lying crosses the line.

I remembered an interesting quote: When Phillip of Macedon (Alexander's father) was asked how he liked his hair cut he answered "in silence". I think I'll try that one the next time a stripper asks me what kind of girls or dances I like: "silent ones".

It looks like the fundamental problem though is that we have fundamentally notions of what kinds of lies, scams, and robberies are acceptable and which aren't.

A BS hard luck story is clearly an out of line scam in my view.

As you say it could be true. And in that case, if I did like the girl and thought I could trust her, I would be inclined to *loan* her the $100 or whatever. But because it's so likely to be a scam I can never do that.

That's who the scammer is hurting the most: the person genuinely in need of help who won't get it because others will assume she is just scamming.

I conjecture that body languague, age, clothing, and projection of confidence will play an important part in determining who will be targetted for scams and who won't. Gonna ask some of my stripper "friends" about that one. Some of FONDL's rule are good, some are junk, but I think more needs to be said about appearance.

DavidS I don't regard the sob story as a scam, mainly because it is a pretty obvious request for more money and asking for more money is what these girls do. It is also possible that it is true, even if unlikely. A scam to me would be the sob story followed by promises of extras for the money, then the extras aren't delivered. As for the strippers complementing you and telling you that you're a friend that's part of the buisness too. They are selling a fantasy in addition to the simple comodity of access to their bodies in the form of a lapdance. The girls that are most sucessful are the ones that can make a connection with a customer. Is that connection genuine? As I've said many times, I totally understand what the strippers mean by a friend. They certainly like some customers more than others, and some customers may make their job easier, or the time pass quicker, or are better tippers. That is simple human preference. Do I expect them to take me home to meet mom, or invite me to their wedding? Are you kidding? A little exaggeration of the depth of friendship, which I consider a part of the whole deal you apparently consider a scam. Do you consider the bartender or waiter who laughs at your jokes no matter how lame to be scamming you? It's simple customer courtesy. In the clubs, given the nature of what they sell, the courtesy extends a little further into the ego boosting area. I say no harm, no foul. As far as keeping myself out of scamming situations I think FONDL has a lot of common sense suggestions. In my experience, and this extends to strippers too, if you deal with people on the level, most will deal with you the same way, but when you make yourself a target you'll attract the scammers. It's blood in the water to the sharks, so don't swim in the ocean with an open wound. The drunk guy in the corner flashing a huge wad and flinging it about with abandon will attract the wrong kind of attention in any bar, not just clubs. As for RL's posts, I just look at them and ask myself exactly what does this guy expect?

AN: No, no, you misunderstood. I said you have more credibility than Yoda. I did not say you have little credibility. For example let's say credibility were measured on a scale of 1 to 10. Then Yoda's credibility would be 2 (if he did not occasionally back down from his positions when cornered as he does then it would be 1). So anyone with credibility greater than 2 has more credibility than Yoda. It could be high: 8 as RL has, for instance, or 3 as FONDL has.

I find it hard to beleive you never been scammed in 10 years. For example no stripper has ever told you she is your friend when she is not in an effort to try and get you to spend more money? No stripper has ever told you a BS hard luck story and how she needs to borrow money from you to pay her rent tommorow else she and children get evicted?

If that's true then I want to know how you have been able to avoid scams all these years? Maybe because you are older? Do not project a "too nice" image? Maybe it's just not an accepted part of the culture in the clubs you go to?

Maybe I need to consult my inside sources about that one: Are there customers who conduct themselves in such a way that they will not be the target for scams to begin with?

DavidS, What I can't figure out is why you are so determined that everyone agree with you regardless of their own opinions or experiences? I've found strippers to be over-represented in the catagories of single mom, drug user, tatooed, pierced, bisexual and having a hot body when compared to the general population, but I haven't experienced any more propensity towards scamming or crime (except maybe prostitution) than any other service industry employee.

AN: Ok, you admit that strippers are more likely to be single mothers than other girls their age. Thanks, you have more credibility than Yoda. But I guess that's not saying much.

In the "newbie rules" thread some posters like FONDL started to admit that scamming is pretty common amongst strippers. Usually if you wait long enough and examine enough of their posts, the posters will admit it at some point.

DavidS, I've stated very specifically in other posts that I've never been scammed or robbed by a stripper in 10 years of going to clubs, and you say I have little credability because I don't agree with you? So I'm supposed to substitute your judgement for my own, and your experiences for my own so that I agree with you? So in order to have credability my conclusion must match yours, regardless of my experiences. That's what we call begging the question. Is it possible that you and I have had different experiences with the clubs leading to vastly different conclusions? I think so, I don't question your experiences as being genuine, and you have every right to hold strippers in the low esteem you do. I don't totally agree with you, because I haven't seen anything to support your conclusion. My disagreement with you is that you seem to view any opinion or set of experiences that differs from yours as somehow illegitemate, and you continually deride anyone who disagrees with you as misguided or naiive or lying. I'll ask you, why are you so determined that we all agree strippers are bottom feeding scum? Do you need others to agree with you to validate your conclusions? I'll agree with you then, the strippers you've dealt with are all scam artists and criminals. I however have apparently been much luckier.

Yoda: You are really have trouble comprehending this, don't you? Strippers lie, steal, and scam WAY more than other members of society. Try TALKING to some strippers some time. Even they will admit that that it is true. Why can't you? Do you have a financial or other stake in the whole affair? Do strippers, as a group, have to be good or average to offer you some redeemption for all the resources you devote to them?

Davids get a life.

Davids: I haven't taken a vacation in five years. I just find this thread to be a re-hash of stuff that's all been said before.

Strippers are not "losing" anything. They dance for money and, the last time I checked, dancers where still dancing and customers where still paying. If you want to apply bogus statistics and your twisted sense of right and wrong to the occupation that's your business. What you or I say here really dosn't effect what goes on in the clubs.

Yeah, I have a twisted sense of right and wrong: I think lying, stealing, and scamming is unethical even when it happens in strip clubs. You're the twisted one who tries to kiss ass and rationalize these things.

I say that being nice makes it more likely that the strippers are going to try and scam you. The solution though is not to be a jerk. Although being a jerk will lower your chances of getting scammed compared to being nice, it will also ruin how you get along with the good strippers so it's not worth the cost.

The real solution is to be nice, but not a sucker. Part of not being a sucker is knowing how common and condoned lying, stealing, and scamming is in the SC culture.

Casulaguy, politeness is only one of the things that helps to keep from getting scammed. Look at my list under "how not to get scammed." If you do all those things I think it's impossible to get scammed. You're right that I do tend to talk to girls quite a bit before buying dances, and if they don't appear to be fairly open and honest I won't spend much money on them, because the girls who come on with a phoney line just don't appeal to me.

Plus i'm betting that my definition of "getting scammed" is different than some other guys'. To me the only thing I care about is, in my opinion did I get my money's worth? Was my experience in the club worth what it cost me? Seems to me I'm in total control of that. So if the answer to my question is "no," I lost control. And that's my fault, not hers. As long as I maintain control of myself, I can't get scammed.

FONDL you are just plain wrong if you are accusing everyone who has ever been scammed as not being polite to a dancer ahead of time. I bet you put every dancer through an extensive interview process though before you get a dance and/or your club screens dancers before they are hired. Some people like to just do things (Nike commercial drummed this into some heads years ago) such as get a dance on occasion and don't always wait to interview the dancer first.

ChitownLawyer, well said, I couldn't agree more. Plus I think it's really easy to avoid getting scammed in a strip club, probably alot easier than avoiding getting scammed by your neighborhood auto mechanic. So easy that I've posted a separate thread on it. Which loosely traslated is: be polite and use common sense. Obviously that's difficult for some guys to do when meeting a naked woman or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I believe strippers are both nice and evil. It's just the luck of the draw as to who you run into. davids must have really bad luck. :)

casualguy: "There are still a few people who will return wallets with all the money still in it but there seems to be less people like that around nowadays. If you're in a strip club, your chances probablydropped dramatically"

Looks like casualguy is admitting here that he agrees with me that strippers, on average, have less ethical integrity than members of the general population. Somebody call Yoda back from his vacation: The strippers are in deep trouble now, and in serious need of some mega ass-kissing to salvage their good name!

I remember someone once asked me (don't know why someone started this line of questioning with me) if you found a bag of cash and no id and the bad was full of lots of cash, would you just keep it or turn it in to the police so that the rightful owner could be found? I believe my answer was that I would investigate what the law was if it was a lot of money. I know if I found a small amount of cash such as $5, I would just keep it and not worry about it if there was no obvious owner. Now if there was id with the cash or specifically a wallet, it's ethical to return everything since you can determine the rightful owner. Of course in the example above, I probably would try to determine the owner (with help) since I wouldn't feel right about the possibility I was spending some old lady's entire life savings. When I hear someone would keep something that someone else lost with their id in it, I think that is the same as stealing. I don't really know if the general population has higher ethics than strippers but I get the feeling that money hungry people would likely keep any money they can even if it's wrong. Unless the money hungry people have high ethical standards against stealing and scamming.

In my lifetime, I've had two coats stolen from public places. One was from a strip club. One was from a courthouse, in an area generally only frequented by lawyers, judges and court personnel. I'm not sure if there is any conclusion to be drawn from this, but such are the facts....(In both cases, I was an idiot to leave the coat unattended..But at least I was enjoying myself in VIP while the asshole was stealing. Probably not enjoying myself as much in court when the other coat went AWOL,)

chances probably dropped dramatically I meant to say.

I have to agree that many strippers and I believe many people in the general population have what I consider to be bad ethics. As I was getting a dance from a stripper who has a nice attitude towards me, she was talking a lot and mentioned some dancers are good at getting things out of guys pockets. However if a guy was so stupid as to not check if he still had his wallet after leaving the lapdance area, she would take half the money out and then ask around if someone forgot his wallet. I find myself checking all pockets for my wallet, car keys, and possibly tip money now if I get a dance. I know if something slips out of my pocket by accident, I probably won't get it back. So I will agree bad ethics are everywhere. There are still a few people who will return wallets with all the money still in it but there seems to be less people like that around nowadays. If you're in a strip club, your chances probably dramatically.

That's an example of bad management. I see where some of your anger comes from now. I feel differently because I had a different experience and got my money back. I even felt like I had the ability to make the dancer who stole my money have a miserable life getting her in trouble or fired at other clubs but I felt like working as a stripper for the next 10 years just scrapping by would be enough punishment for her. She'll probably find someone by then and then leave the business. Just the way I saw things in my mind. It seemed real strange when I kept running into her though.

Management at the club I had money stolen from me at told me "well you just have to watch your money better in a place like this". Needless to say that was my last visit there. Apparently not to many other people go there either, coincidence?

I'm not going to change my mind either. I know some strippers are bad apples and will scam or steal money hoping to never get caught or have to pay for it. I successfully got one stripper fired for picking my pocket. I even got my money back from the manager. Apparently management was already getting red flags from a mysterious loss of business and customers who she already had encounters with. I got invited to the manager's office and confirmed her identity after they did an investigation. Many people might not think the management of a strip club would listen to customers but they do listen if it's affecting their business.

lets face it ther are nice strippers and there are not so nie strippers. I've met both at the club I go to. I like the current girls at the club I go to and I understand that they want money and I want to give them money. That desn't mean that one can't have a little fun with it.

I think I had unrealistic expectations when I started: I thought strippers would just be good looking, college girls looking to make a little extra money for tuition by having some harmless fun. Little did I know about the sleazy, but strangely fascinating world I was about to enter. (How I got the naive expectations in the first place I'll never understand.)

I definitely disagree that strippers have no discernible significant statistics differences from other girls their age. But that dead horse certainly doesn't need another whack here.

I wonder if older or younger guys are more likely to mistakenly feel they have a "special relationship" with a stripper? On the one hand, I can see young guys as not thinking that it is unrealistic for a young woman to like them (and in some cases it won't be unrealistic if they guy wasn't paying money!). But on the other hand, the young guys are also more likely to be looking for (and getting) free, hot pussy OTC... Also most young guys won't have the money to sustain the hobby for very long.

I predict most "PL"s are guys in their late 40s or 50s who either have some sort of psychological problems and/or have recently had some major martial problems and are now forced to find (or are semi-consciously contemplating finding) a new mate even though they are past their prime so are unlikely to find what they really want...

I think once someone is in their 60s they can so clearly see that sex with a 20 something is so unrealistic that they won't get taken in as often. That and people that age are (hopefully) just plain wiser in the ways of human affairs. :-)

I'll have to ask my stripper "friends" about that one sometime.

davids, I don't subscribe to the "strippers are wonderful" school of thought. I find just about all variant characteristics of humanity to be represented in dancers about as much as in the general population. However, I will say that I have never felt cheated by a dancer. Maybe this is my good luck, and is atypical. But I do like the straightforward transaction involved with a dancer: she knows what I am offering, I know what she is offering, and we exchange the terms of trade to live out the adage of classical economics that "every voluntary exchange enriches both parties to it."

I can see how people can get burned, or think that they have been burned, if they have some unrealistic expectations, be they expectations of a higher level of concupiscence than will be forthcoming, or expectations of a more emotionally personal relationship than will be forthcoming.

As for me, I apply my well-worn "Disneyland for Grown-ups" model, and it works fine for me. I might like to get my picture taken with Minnie Mouse, but she's not going to leave the park and come home with me to be my own special "E ride."

As I have said before, it's all about context.

johnny: I wish we lived in a society in which prostitutes and other sex workers were just another profession which was perfectly legal. I think alot of the problems with SCs arise from the fact that "sex for money" is considered immoral by many. I think the sex trade might even evolve high standards on business on its own in such a climate. Unfortunately probably decades off in the future given the recent resurgence of religion. Have to adapt to what we have in the meantime.

I think you both have good points.

Let's face it - things boil down to they're there to make money and we're there to spend it. Try to put yourself in the dancer's shoes. I consider myself a pretty ethical person, but in order to survive in that situation, I'd have to alter my rules a bit. The real question has always been when does it go from hustling to scamming? Davids has a few pretty clear examples, but when we get in the grey area, acceptable behavior might vary based on your own beliefs and experiences.

It would be really interesting to see someone protest at a strip club, not on due to the sex factor but just due to the scam factor. If anybody did that, gotta say, I'd probably laugh at first but in some ways would admire their balls for doing so.

Davids, you got burned for a few bucks and know want everyone to know. Why not look at it that it helped you to learn about people, not all dancer.

A lot of people tell you stories and you buy it. Did your local politicians tell you the truth and used your tax dollars wisely?

Do not look at your experience and project that all actions by dancers are bad. Some of them do it to survive, they learned it from their friends and think it is okay.

If you are so repused by the action of dancers, why do you go to SC? Why don't you wear a sign and protest outside the club and warn others? If you see someone hurt on the street, do you just leave them lying there? If you know everyone at SC are scamming, why support them or not let everyone know about the problems.

Ok, you caught me Yoda, yeah, I've was burned by a stripper once: She stole money from me which I never got back: $80. Then the stupid bitch has the nerve to come by another night and ask me to get dances from her! Incredible! Goes to show you how stupid strippers think their customers are.

Anyway, another tried to steal $100 from me, but I got it all back. 5 or 6 tried to overcharge me for dances, but in each case I just stuck to my guns said take it up with management and got my way.

As for thinking I had a special relationship with a stripper, this was always pretty easy for me to tell using the "well I'll stop paying her money and see how she responds" test. This always seemed to me the completely obvious thing to do: I mean if she really likes you she isn't going to charge money to spend time with her, right? So I never fot burned by that.

I had countless strippers tell me "we were friends" or had some special relationship, or variation of this. Mostly I just laughed and put them to the test and watched them squirm: Kind of amusing to be honest.

Then there were strippers with countless stories about how they had family tradgedies, car accident, and desperately needed money to pay their rent. Pathetic. Never gave 'em money for that.

My real problem with strippers is that they are lying, stealing, and scamming so often. You see it pretty much constantly in SCs. It must be working on someone else they won't try it, right? I'm sure it would never work on the veteran customer, but it must be working on a non-negiigible % of customers else they won't be trying it right?

The bottom line is I think strippers, as a group, are rightfully regarded as just a step above a prison population when it comes to ethics. Many, in fact, do have rather INTERESTING rap sheets, but that's a topic for another day...

Davids: Most of us know about the "other side". We use common sense and self-control to stay out of trouble in SC's the same as we do in all aspects of our lives. In my experience, most guys that come onto this site trying to save the rest of us from evil strippers have just been burned and have an ax to grind.

I'm just here to provide balance to the "strippers are wondeful" camp which I feel is over represented on the stripper related discussion forums.

Don't you think the other side needs to be heard too?

I'm realistic: I realize that some here have deeped seated reasons for behaving as they do, and won't be changing their minds any time soon if ever!

A lot of this is well plowed ground, but here goes. I've been going to clubs for about 10 years, and I have never been scammed or robbed. Now have I felt cheated? Yep, a few times I've felt what I got was a lot less than I was promised. In my mind getting an airdance from a total knockout you saw all over another guy is disappointing, but not a scam. It's my fault for assuming I'd get the same treatment. I simply said no thanks to another dance and paid her. To me a scam implies explicit dishonesty, such as inflating the price or count. Having your tiproll lifted is robbery, not a scam. As far as the dancers go, I find them to be pretty honest in general, much as I find most of the general public, but then I make sure not to put myself in the position to find out, in either case. Yes, finding the wallet full of money is where most people start to fail, but I think short of that people will generally be honest, like if you see the guy drop the wallet, most people will return it full. My favorite honest dancer moment came when I was nearing the bottom of my tiproll and accidentally put a $20 on the stage. The dancer saw it and saw the look on my face as I realized what I just did. She came over to dance and said "Pick up the $20 and give me what you meant to."

davids: Lying , cheating and stealing go on every day among both men and women in all walks of life and in many other occupations beside dancing. You have chosen to single-out a specific group of women who are no more guilty of bad behavior than any other. Your inability to comprehend what a dancer's job is does not make them all bad.

Strippers are R-rated prostitutes - R-rated sexual service for money. Plain and simple.

I guess I evaluate my experience with dancers in two ways:

First, when it comes to out-and-out larceny, such as a dancer trying to lift my tiproll from my pocket, that has definitely never happened. Nor have I had to deal with quasi-dishonest things such as inflated dance counts or outrageous puffery to get me into a VIP/Champagne room, etc.

Second, in terms of the integrity of the exchange, I have always liked the straightforward nature of the transaction:

I bring to the transaction: Money (and, I suppose, some minimal level of social grace and hygiene).

The dancer brings: a hot body with little or no clothing on it, and a willingness to rub same all over me, and a moderate level of social grace.

The transaction continues by mutual agreement, or until one of the parties no longer brings the above commodities to the table. It's so clear that it could come out of a Milton Friedman book on Economics, or out of a calculus textbook.. No subtlety, no nuance, no guesswork.

In the above exchange, the dancer will never tell you:

You said you would call...
If you loved me, you would know...
Do have to do everything myself...
She is MY mother, after all...

etc., etc.

A big part of my attraction to dancers is the fact that the arrangement is a very simple and straightforward one, unlike relationships with women in real life. That being said, I don't use my time in strip clubs to substitute for relationships in "real life," just as a break from them.

chitownlawyer wrote "However, I will say that I have never felt cheated by a dancer. Maybe this is my good luck, and is atypical."

I would have to say you definitely can consider yourself lucky. I think anyone that visits strip clubs at any sort of regularity is going to get scammed sooner or later. I am by no means a huge strip club veteran but have been scammed a few times over the 5 years I have been visiting them. Nothing major, things I chalked up as experience as well and just made me more cautious in future interactions with strippers.

Everyone has made good points, but I think if I had to pick a side I would be with davids on this issue. I think that stripping is a pretty corrupt business, and the girls on average do not have the ethics as more other professions. In general, the conscious goal of a stripper is to get men drunk and irrational so they can fleece as much money as possible from them. Sure, if you are a astute guy and watch yourself as well as the girls you are talking to, you can spend only what you want and have a good time. But they are surely moving on to another guy after you hoping they can hit a jackpot.

I guess it really just comes down to personal experiences, and I have seen my share of bullshit go down at clubs to make me think this.