Comments by FONDL (page 40)

Whghlost, I don't know if you're putting us on or not. But assuming that you're serious and actually looking for advice, IMO you are putting yourself at major risk. If you keep pushing, the next time something bad happens at that club or to one of the dancers who works there, you are going to be a prime suspect. Is the risk worth it ot you? Give it up, man, before you end up in jail and/or labeled a sexual predator. It ain't worth it. Find another club where you're welcome. And spread your money around, don't get attached to one girl, you can't handle it.

Harrydave, I know you meant that as sarcasm, but that is a small difference compared to my ATF and I. I've said it before but I think some strippers like us old guys because we treat them a lot better than do guys their own age. It's a big reason why so many of us geezers go to strip clubs. Works for me.

Bones, I've never tried to convince either of my massage therapists to do anything extra. But I once did have an interesting conversation with my local girl (who unfortunately moved away) - we were talking about the differences between her massage technique and my ATF's and I mentioned that one difference was that she covered me from head to toe with a cotton sheet while my ATF usually only covers my midsection with a towel. To which she responded that she hade some customers who she didn't cover at all. She explained that covering the customer is mainly an East Coast thing, that in the West and in Europe the customer is usually naked. I asked her if she liked that and she said yes because she felt she could give a better massage that way. She also said that in the West there are fancy upscale spas where both therapist and customer get naked, eg. places that have natural hot springs. (There's actually a school of massage in California that teaches nude massage.) We never talked about it again and I don't know what might have happened if we did. But it's an example of how you could approach the subject - get her talking about how massages are done in other parts of the world where nudity isn't as big a deal as it is here.

Casualguy, that's a big reason why us Yankees like to vacation in the south, everything including the strip clubs seems cheap to us. I rent a waterfront condo in FL for less than half what it would go for in NJ. Even the restaurants in the resort area that I go to are cheaper then my restaurants at home.

Harrydave, it sounds like there isn't a huge age difference between you and most strippers. In my case there is, and I think that makes it easier for an in-club buddy relationship to develop into an OTC friendship that lasts a long time. My ATF and I have been very close friends for over 10 years, she considers me family. We talk on the phone almost every day; I vacation in her town (she lives at the beach.)

Clubber, you missed the whole point. The locals hit the Green Parrot around 8 am, that's when you get the true flavor of KW. At night it's all tourists. I can't access the reviews - did you like Teasers or has it become too touristy? The thing I always like best about the old place (aside from the naked LDs of course) was the laid-back atmosphere. I met my #2 ATF there - wow what a sweetie. It's a good thing I was only there for 2 weeks.

The other nice thing about it was that when I went to this club all the girls knew I was there to see my ATF - they'd be friendly and say hello and maybe ever sit and talk for a bit if my ATF was tied up, but they never pestered me for a dance or to buy them drinks. That's never going to happen in a big place.

Yes it is obvious. But when I raised the issue I was thinking more in terms of overall strategy rather than the obvious tactics - eg. I've always thought that a girl is better off working in a place where she can be one of the stars rather than a place where there a lot of girls who are better looking than she is. Obviously in any given year the really gorgeous blonde working in the really expensive GC is going to make a ton of money. But how long can she keep that up? I think the highest earners over time are the above average girls with pleasant personalities who work in a local place for a long period of time and have a long list of regulars who come in every week and donate $100 or so each visit. Such clubs usually have little payout so the girls get to keep most of what they take in. In other words, I think a girl who is a 6 or 7 will earn more in a locals place surrounded by 5s than she will in a bigger fancier place surrounded by 9s.

It all depends on the club and what they're trying to sell. In clubs that push LDs there isn't usually much emphasis placed on stage dancing. But there are plenty of clubs that still feature good stage dancing, some of which don't even offer private dances. But I think most people posting here avoid clubs like that. So maybe it's your own choice of clubs that gives the impression that stage dancing is dying.

Bones, I guess every state is different. PA doesn't license massage therapists so anyone can offer massages although most therapists advertise that they have a national certification. In FL, where my ATF lives, you can't charge money for a massage without a state license. Even the place where they give it has to be inspected and licensed. I too would rather get a massage from a young, attractive and personable girl than go to a strip club. But since my regular therapist moved I haven't been able to find anyone I like. Just be careful how you approach your girl if you're trying to convince her to do more, it could all come to a screeching halt- some therapists are very sensitive about that stuff. I think you'd be better off discussing it sometime when she isn't giving you a massage, like over dinner or drinks.

Maybe a more meaningful (for here) topic is, what's the best way for a STRIPPER to maximize her income? I think it depends on the girl. A real knockout is probably better off working in a fancy GC, while a more average girl might do better in a smaller club where the competition isn't as great. There's also the question of regulars - that probably depends on the place but I'd say that most girls are better off to have some regulars but not so many that the girl becomes dependent on them or that they create conflict with each other. There's probably an ideal percentage of their business that comes from their regulars - maybe half or so? IME the most successful girls always seem to be tied up with their regulars. Although the ideal is probably to have regulars who come see them during slow times but not during the busiest evenings. That's what I always did with my ATF, I don't think I ever visited her on a weekend night.

David, you probably weren't here then but in the past we've discussed at great length trends in the strip club industry. Some of us (like me) think that the number of strippers (and clubs) is growing much faster than the number of customers, which results in a steady decline in individual stripper incomes. I believe this has been going on for a long time. And it makes a lot of strippers more desparate (and more willing to do extras.) I personally think this accounts for the "economic decline" that so many strippers claim to see. I've been hearing that complaint for many years. And as I'm sure you know there hasn't been a national recession in a very long time, although some regions, particularly parts of the Northeast, have done poorly at times. Just curious, where are you from?

So do we conclude from the responses here that south Florida and a few other places in the Sunshine State are the only places in the US where nude LDs, virtually unlimited 2-way touching and a full bar all in the same club is legal?

I can relate to being a big fish in a small pond, it's what I like. And that's pretty much how my ATF and I became friends. She worked in a small local place where most of the customers were young guys who spent little money and either made fun of the girls or pestered them for dates. There weren't many guys like me there, older guys who came in to see the same girl every week, spent some money on her and treated her with respect. That made me stand out and meant that whenever I came in she really went out of her way to please me. And it made it easier to convince her to get together OTC.

Bones, your situation with your massage therapist doesn't sound like a problem to me, in fact it sounds just about perfect - don't screw it up by expecting too much. As you know, my ATF is also my massage therapist, but she lives 1200 miles away so I don't get to see her very often. Massages around here cost about $75 an hour and even at that I haven't found anyone I like. But I'll keep looking.

I don't think intelligence is the most meaningful criteria, I'd also add willingness to work hard and opportunity as being at least equally important. A girl of average intelligence who comes from an upper class background and is willing to work hard will often do better than a more intelligent girl from a disadvantaged background. My ATF, for example, is well above average in intelligence and a very hard worker, but it's taking her longer than most to get into a high paying field because she came from a family that provided no guidance. I also think where a girl (or guy for that matter) goes to college and what she majors in are becoming more and more important. This is another advantage the girl from the upper class family has. She's likely to go to a more exclusive school, while the lower class girl goes to the local community college. A general degree like marketing or liberal arts from a third-rate school isn't worth much in the market place, no matter how intelligent the girl is. Unless she has super looks and personality she isn't likely to get a very good job. I'd add nursing to the list of high paying opportunities for young girls who are willing to work hard. There's a tremendous shortage and salaries are heading into the stratosphere. That's what my ATF is now pursuing. When she finishes she'll finally be back to making as much as she did 10 years ago. Stripping may pay well for a few years but over the course of a lifetime it isn't a high paying field, unless the girl is smart enough to invest well when she's young. Few do that.

Interesting responses. I especially agree with Chandlers "imperfect, human and approachable" and harrydave's "opening themselves up and being vulnerable." Those are both big parts of it for me. But I think the biggest draw for me is that there were things missing in my life and my ATF came along and filled the void. I had needs that weren't being met to my satisfaction, and she was both willing and able to fill them and vice versa. She also was totally nonjudgmental, she accepted me the way I am, flaws and all, which meant I could talk about anything with her. How many people in our lives are willing to do that? I also found it interesting that very few people here disagreed with my premise that many of us become very attached to these girls. I expected more argument on that. And parodyman has it wrong, it's not falling in love, it's something very different. I doubt if any of us would think of it as falling in love, especially those of us for whom there's a big age difference.

AN, a word of caution about Partners. It's a very unusual and popular place. There's no bar or anything, just a bunch of seats around a dancing area in the middle of the floor. And it's BYOB, guys bring in coolers. The girls all sit at the rail with regular customers when they're not dancing, they don't dirculate. So you have no chance to either sit with a girl or talk to her. The only way an outsider can hook up with a girl is to go to the dj and reserve a dance with a specific girl, then sit and wait for her to get to you, and you have no idea how long you might have to wait. There are two private dance areas, one for individual dances, the other for the private booths that as I recall rent by the half hour or something like that. Take a girl for a single dance first, then you can follow up with the private booths if you like the girl. I know this all sounds very annoying and it is, but if you are patient enough to find the right girl the aggravation will be well worth it. The night I was there the girls were quite attractive and very very friendly. Very - LDs are done in the nude and 2-way touching is virtually unlimited. Which is no doubt why the place is so popular. Finding the place is also a bit of a problem, it's easy to find but you'll think you're in the wrong part of town because it's in an upscale residential neighborhood in a relatively new commercial building - you'll think you've gone too far out of town. It's been a while since I've been there so it may have changed. Enjoy.

Whghlost, are you kidding us? When you say that you are comfortable with each other you are deluding yourself. She clearly isn't comfortable with you. It's over with her. You're scaring the shit out of this girl. If you care at all about her, move on. Forget about the details, they don't matter. Time to cut your losses and start over somewhere else.

I'm confused. How could I possibly have made my sarcasm any heavier? That's as heavy as I know how to get. Usualy I'm much more subtle than that. But Chandler and I have a history here, we've had some fun repartee. So I guess if you didn't know that ... AN, haven't been to Royal Palace in years, but I always thought it was THE DC raunchy club. I don't recall any fat girls but I do recall lots of tatoos and spikey hairdos and muscules. I always assumed that all the girls there were lesbians, after all it is in the gay part of town. Isn't it like that anymore?

David9999, I don't find that puzzling at all. A young girl who is a single mom doesn't have a lot of choices available to her. Unless she has a family who will support her, she pretty much has to find a job that will pay well for someone with zero job skills without her having to work many hours. There aren't many jobs like that.

Chandler, I don't know about Shadowcat, but I used to hope that my ATF would take advantage of my gift-giving, it's why I initially did it. Fortunately that turned out not to be the case. Sometimes not getting what you hope for is the best result. Funny how often the universe seems to understand that.

The idea that a man find total fulfillment - sex, love, mother of his children, homemaker, friend - in one woman is a relatively recent concept, pretty much unique to our society's middle class and the last 100 years or so. And frankly, if you look at the number of unhappy marriages, dysfunctional families and divorces, it hasn't worked very well. It's a noble experiment that has largely failed. For the sake of social stability we pretend otherwise. It's the ultimate hypocrisy and we're all guilty of it. The strip club is perceived as a "safe" way for many married men to take a little break from their self-imposed monogamy. For a brief while they can pretend that they have a girl friend. The fact that the girl is often a lot younger adds to the appeal. It's a way for older married men to escape the pressures of their reality. And the fact that there's some danger involved adds to the appeal. If society didn't strongly push us in that direction, how many of us would freely choose to spend our entire lives working for someone else all day long to support a wife and family? How many of us have fantasized about chucking it all and pursuing a totally different kind of life? The strip club is largely unique in allowing us to do that for a short period of time. I think a lot of strippers understand this fairly well, if not explicitly at least intuitively, and take advantage of it. I once asked my ATF what she thought of older married men in her strip club. She said that she admired them, because they're not out somewhere else cheating on their wives. I think that's pretty perceptive.

If a girl can't handle rejection she's in the wrong business. I don't care what product you're selling, you're always going to get no more often than yes, that's the nature of sales. The only time I've ever felt bad about saying no, I was in a club in Providence and spent a lot of time with a really cute coed-type who I really liked at first, except that she had a bad cold and complained about it all evening, which got really tiresome. I went back the next night hoping to try someone new (this place had a lot of hot girls), unfortunately she immediately spotted me and came right over. I should have gone to a different club, it made me very uncomfortable.

I don't go where I'm not wanted. If any service establishment or provider, strip club or otherwise, ever makes me feel unwelcome, I'm no longer their customer. Whghlost, I suggest you do the same. It's time to move on. Nothing good can come from you pursuing this. It makes no difference what the circumstances are or if you've been misunderstood, that's irrelevant. It's over. Find another club. And in the future, don't ever wait 3 hours or even half that for a dancer to be free, that alone is likely to freak them out. If the girl you want to see is busy, find another girl.