tuscl

Strips as an affair substitute

Friday, September 7, 2007 4:04 AM
Lets assume hypothetically that you have a guy, who in fact is in a good marriage with a very attractive wife, that starts going to strip clubs precisely to avoid the temptation of having affairs, then the person is quite surprised to find out that the vast bulk of dancers are not drug addicted exhibitionists and in fact (at least) 10% of dancers actually are relatively normal, excepting their membership in a very odd profession that (by definition) requires them at a minimum to be fondled and groped by typically 100 to 200 men per month - and actually would be in the range of women the man might have wanted to meet in real life, 20 to 25 years earlier. There is alot of talk on the various boards throughout the net of the PL type, generally either the younger complete loser/social-misfits or the stereotypical old, fat, short, bald guys. Sometimes you see posts by dancers expressing their rage against these customer types, yet rarely do they mention certain other categories of men. Basic question is whether anyone else started to going to strip clubs as an affair substitute, but ends up finding out that the temptations being offered are either equal or worse than real life?

37 comments

  • Bakersman
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    17 years ago
    I go to strip clubs as an affair alternative. My wife is fully aware of the time I spend in the clubs and has on many trips went with me. The strip club things helps to satisfy my desire to see young hot girls grind on my lap without having to risk as much. Me and the wife play and have included others in our love making but we are not into dating other people. I go to the clubs about once a week and spend about 2000 on each trip it is a fun way to play around also the tease for me is a very powerful and sometimes just as pleasurable as actual sex.
  • scott1971
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    17 years ago
    I think it's self-deception to think of it as an "affair substitute." It strikes me (as a happily 10+ year married family man kind of guy) as just another way of trying to tell oneself that "it's not really cheating." It is an affair and it is cheating. It's a different kind of "affair" than one that carries emotional/romantic elements but an affair nevertheless. I think that's what we're paying for. In exchange for money we have a "safer" affair--no attachments, no courting no emotional investment--a financial investment instead. The money replaces those elements of relationship building one would have to put into a "traditional" affair. For some, that's a level of "cheating" one can live with on occasion when a "traditional" affair would be unthinkable, undesired, and just plain would/could never happen. But it doesen't surprise me a bit that in your last sentence this hypothetical guy who went telling himself "it's not really an affair--it's an 'affair substitute'" discovers the reality doesen't match the deception. Seems to me better to be honest with oneself and go in with one's eyes open--decide to do it if one wants, but don't try to do it while pretending it's really something else. Sorry if that sounds judgmental.
  • driver01
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    17 years ago
    David9999, Let's see if I understand this correctly... so this hypothetical guy is in a good marriage with an attractive wife and he thinks putting himself in a room containing a fully stocked bar and is full of good looking young naked women who want to take him into a private secluded area for purposes that generally involve more than just good conversation, is a good way to avoid temptation???...I like the way this guy thinks...lol
  • DougS
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    17 years ago
    I don't think of it as an alternative to an affair at all. I think of it AS an affair. Whether it be all in one's head (the one with the brain), or something more substantial, it's still an affair. Actually, I think strip clubbing opens the flood gates to having an affair. I never would've considered having an affair, either. I also have a very attractive wife, etc., but after years of clubbing, striking up a relationship with another non-dancing woman didn't seem like taking that much of a step. Once that ended, that was about the same time when I started having deeper relationships with the dancers ITC, which then led to the string of OTCing that I've been doing ever since. This attitude sort of escalates, which led to some emotional ties being formed with my last two favs (prev-ATF and ATF). Currently, I find myself with a whole lot more feelings for my ATF than I should have, and I don't see that decreasing. If anything, it's going in the other direction, and I'm thinking it's becoming more and more mutual. I don't know if it's the result of this relationship, or not, but I think it's certainly at least affected both of our marriages negatively. She's, at least temporarily separated - possibly permanently. Rambling aside, there are most definitely a lot of temptations being offered in the clubs, and it is all too easy to find yourself in a situation that is not the least bit conducive to maintaining your marriage.
  • David9999
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    17 years ago
    I used to be a good guy, not sure what happened. No doubt it's delusional to think its anything but cheating, even though initially it was done in good faith - to avoid precisely that. Unfortunately the problem is worse than some describe above, I'm not just talking lap dances with different dancers, instead I'm clearly following the track as described by DougS in the prior post, headed toward either full blown involvement or some involvement at some level with varying levels of mutuality with certain dancers, including in my case the ability to drop large amounts of money on certain girls that I like, or in one situation fairly small amounts of money, but nonetheless a degree of involvement anyways. Fortunately (or unfortunately) a very high net worth accrued in recent years makes this doable any major problems.
  • Ironcat
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    17 years ago
    I have been married for 17 years in Oct. and love my wife and family. I'm not looking for an ATF but I do have some dancers that I like more than others. To me the fantasy is to have this virtual harem in which I can pursue a wide variety of different women (the operative word being different). I believe that men are hardwired by nature to be serial monogamists (hence the high divorce rate in our society), and that SC all for a relatively safe environment to fulfill. I guess it all depends on your attitude in terms of how it affects your relationships. My attitude is that this keeps me from looking for another relationship.
  • Ironcat
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    17 years ago
    I meant to say "offers a relatively safe environment"
  • David9999
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    17 years ago
    (I'm not referring to all women only certain women so apologize for too much generalizing) IronCat mention serial monogamy well actually its worse, for example Alpha male seed spreaders were the winners of the survival game for 5 million years - and they were highly nonmonogamous and they randomly banged every fertile female in sight, with pair bonding/2 parent investing being a late stage evolutionary device, with high volume seed spreaders having a huge edge, which explains why even today so many women (carrying all this evolutionary) baggage are themselves hardwired to be attracted to the bad boy/cheating/controlling males - who can offer the illusive (ultimateley false of coursse) promise of genetic immortality. Non-cheating "nice guys" are subconsciously perceived as evolutionary dead-ends and thus boring. Of course don't expect women to admit this. Many women don't even understand any of the reasons for their innate desires. Some believe they select mates like they selecdt a dress when it fact its 99% of of their control and clearly flows from deep primordial/evolutionary urges that make these decisions. Other day I'm with this drop-dead level 10 scale girl, and I happened to have found out 2 weeks earlier precisely what her monthly clock schedule would be, so I made sure I had her alone 2 weeks later, in fact I even mentioned I was going to do that. So the day arrives and she's going on and on about how completely wet she is and tries to attribute it to some romance thing between us. I said: your ovulating and any guy could do this. She apparently has never made the connection between ovulating and increased desire.
  • driver01
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    17 years ago
    David9999, No sale brother...You forgot one seemingly small but significant thing in your evolutionary tale...God may have planted in you the seed spreader gene but he also planted the FREE WILL gene in all of us...You my friend, are responsible for your decisions and for the actions you take, same for every one of us. God gave us the "need to eat" gene too. Some people eat healthy some choose to eat their way to a heart attack at 50. Same for any activity in life. Sex included. Some choose monogamy, some choose abstinance and some choose to pay strippers obscene amounts of money to play naked with them. In all cases, you exercise your FREE WILL to act as you see fit. But hey, you never know- maybe your wife is more into anthropology than you give her credit for. Try the "it's in man's nature to spread his seed a plenty defense" out on her. Let us know how that works out for you...lol
  • David9999
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    17 years ago
    Explanation and advocacy are quite different. There is no question that most women, especially very atttractive women, have an innate subconscious attraction toward men that either cheat or they believe are cheating. Such men best equate with the Alpha seed spreading male ideal that most females are hardwired via their DNA to be attracted to. This has nothing to do with what women at the conscious level want (actually most sincerely believe they want monoagamous nice guys), instead this has to do with the raw chemistry of attraction and flows not from rational modern-day logic but from the deep dark logic of evolution and genetic survival. All of this is entirely consistent with basic evolutionary biology - where genes seek survival long term over everything else
  • FONDL
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    17 years ago
    I have no interest either in attaching pejorative labels to strip club visits or trying to justify them. It is what it is. If you're comfortable with it, enjoy. If you aren't, go play golf or do something else instead.
  • chandler
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    17 years ago
    This has be the first time I've seen the bad boy seed spreader theory used to explain the attraction cheating SC customers hold for women. Stripper boyfriends, yes, but not customers.
  • chitownlawyer
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    17 years ago
    Remember, re the evolutionary theory--all of us who are alive today are the descendants of the most successful "seed spreaders"--so all of us have those genes to some extent. That having been said, I agree with driver 01's "free will" theory. And, I have to confess that I find myself on the same trajectory that Doug describes...I have pursued a path of sexual license that has moved one step at a time. I'm sure that I never would have had the guts to have an OTC with my secretary, a colleague, etc. But hanging out in strip clubs gave me access to strippers, a group of women whose attitude toward sex is much more free than any women who I normally am around _would admit to__. The next thing you know, I was having OTC. One thing that encouraged my descent was, as another post-er has referenced, having available money. I once asked myself why I didn't go to strip clubs in my twenties, when I wasn't married, and all these moral issues didn't figure into it. I then realized...I didn't have any spare money. Now I have disposable income, and a flexible schedule in which to spend it. We can see how much good it do with it....As you can see, I have a lot of ambivalence about this whole issue. Fortunately, or unfortunately, as I approach the middle of my fifth decade, I can tell that my sexual drives are much less than they were in my 20s or 30s. I think that biology will save me.
  • ThisOldManPlayed1
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    17 years ago
    First off, welcome to TUSCL David9999, Bakersman, and scott1971! Good to see new members posting on our popular Discussion Board. When I was married, I went strip clubbing with my son and his friends, but not very often go alone. I never used it as an affair substitute, as I never wanted to be in an affair, while married. Old fashioned! However, when my wife passed, I started frequenting strip clubs only as a means of sexual excitement, sometimes sexual relief, with very little chance of finding a sweetheart, which I didn't want to do at that time. I surely wasn't ready to begin romancing another woman during my grieving period. Now that I have a SO, I still frequent strip clubs (mostly out of habit now), because there is no 'legal' committment, and because my SO is located hundreds of miles from where I currently live.
  • chandler
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    17 years ago
    Chitown, I recognize that all men may have inherited the desire to spread their seed. What I found amusing was the implication that, by cheating on their wives at strip clubs, customers take on the bad boy seed spreader profile that women can't help throwing themselves at. I always thought SC customers tended to have a shortage of that in their genes.
  • FONDL
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    17 years ago
    Chitown, I can relate to your being saved by biology theory. The older I've gotten, and I'm quite a bit older than you, the less sexual has been my attraction to strip clubs and strippers. I still enjoy looking at and touching a young pretty girl, but the most important aspect for me is their companionship. My OTC relationship with my ATF is all about companionship and friendship and isn't the least bit sexual. And I hope it always stays that way.
  • pinhead
    •
    17 years ago
    I'm from Mass. where there's a no touch rule in effect. The girls at the club I frequent pretty much stay within the parameters, but I recently went to another club for the first time where the no touch rule appeared to be mainly a guideline. As much as I enjoyed it, the thought did cross my mind that this must be cheating. In any event, I shall return.
  • David9999
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    17 years ago
    Actually the fairly common inclination many strippers have of being attracted to various sorts of bad boys whether criminals, shady characters, druggies, lay-abouts, abusers, or cheaters etc - I think the politically correct explanation is they have "low self esteem" and/or were products of bad parenting or distant fathers. Many strippers do not fit this profile, and as I indicated earlier many (of course) except for their profession - are relatively normal. The premise that nonmonogamy in males (in and of itself) can subconsciously be a turn-on in the "chemistry" sense to women is very unpolitically correct, because the premise depends upon another (more commonly accepted) premise: that male nonmonogamy is part of the natural order of the human species - thus arguably (for some)providing a built-in excuse by males to justify cheating. On the side issue (which I didn't assert) as to whether the fact that a patron is now by definition being tagged a cheater, yes, all things equal, its probably a plus, certainly married guys hanging out with scantily clad women and paying them for nude dances arguably would at a minimum take these guys out of the "nice guy" category, however if patrons fit the usual PL profile, its not going to matter anyways.
  • AbbieNormal
    •
    17 years ago
    Some interesting comments. A few points to think about. The alpha male seed spreader described was not monogamous, but traditionally was a very powerful man (chief, king, sheik, etc) and he made damn sure his women were monogamous. Male monogamy is arguably not biologically natural, but remember we are a social species too and most societies have settled on monogamy as socially more stabalizing. All males want to reproduce and when denied that opportunity tend to get angry. That anger can be channeled into revolution, overthrowing the king, whatever. A king with 100 wives with enough men around him with 2 or 3 wives can piss off a lot of men. Eventuallythis becomes a problem, what to do with a lot of angry men with nothing to lose. Look at the societies where an alpha male can still monopolize multiple women or where there is a high bar to obtaining a wife (dowry, cousin marriages, within the tribe, whatever). Most are in the middle east and Africa. The very models of stability. Societies have always made devils bargains, tolerating a level of hypocracy for the public good. Prostitution, mistresses, homosexuality, a certain level of corruption, organized crime control of certain sectors of the economy, police brutality, all have been allowed to exist with a certain understanding that public condemnation is required and engaging too obviously in certain activities is not acceptable and will require public repudiation no matter the status of the offending party. So yes, strip clubs are part of that tradition. They are one of the few places men can act like alpha males, ogling, groping unapologetically horny men, so long as it is kept from public view.
  • AbbieNormal
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    17 years ago
    I also meant to comment on "the path" that strip clubs open. I think this is a common theme in what are typically socially controlled behaviors, tolerated at a certain level as described above. We're taught something is bad (sex, drugs, rock and roll, whatever). In a limited way we experience the bad thing, and find out we enjoy it. Since we were scared to be breaking this great societal taboo we were very careful and secretive. The sky does not fall. We start to understand that as long as our public and professional appearances do not suffer and we are discrete, there really is no penalty, save our guilt. Guilt, most people can handle.
  • David9999
    •
    17 years ago
    "most societies have settled on monogamy as socially more stabalizing" Yes, no doubt and in geologic/evolutionary terms that's a recent development, however the problem is that genes have long memories and are very slow to change, 10's of thousands or millions of years with man's development in the range of 3 to 5 million years total as the best guess (currently), unlike evironmental factors which (in relative terms) can change rapidly - e.g a few centuries of less. Such legacy genes hardly recognize such modern constructs such as marriage and committment and these genes are operating for the most part out of an earlier timeframe when primordial urges ruled day to day existence. I am constantly amazed at how few women will actually admit that subconscious factors control their "selections" in men - while at the same time freely admitting such decisions are controlled to a large degree by the all important "chemistry" - the kind they crave like crack-cocaine. In reality no matter how well intentioned they may be they "select" mates they fall "in love" with primarily based upon where their DNA and genes direct them, with enviromental factors such as societal,upbringing and family etc being a much less significant factor.
  • chandler
    •
    17 years ago
    Speculations on the "natural order of things" aside, anybody who posts here can attest that it's possible to get sucked into the strip club habit more than you anticipated when you started. Somewhere in the back of your mind all along, however, has been the desire that it would lead to a real affair. Even though you have no idea how it could play out other than to get you in trouble. Over time, the "safe environment" ceases to make any difference, and you find a way to make the substitute everything to you that an affair would be. In your heart, it's what you have wanted from the start. While I like the common sense points AN makes, which amount to "don't be too hard on yourself", I keep coming back to another rule of human nature: people are fallible. Fidelity requires cutting yourself some slack, but it also means not putting yourself in too many tempting situations where only a saint could remain true. Some guys can enjoy strip clubs without diving in so deep that it equals cheating. I know I'm not one of them, but I don't envy them. I've tried going to clubs when I had to behave, and it left me bored. I can only enjoy it when I feel like there's no limit what it could lead to. When I'm in a relationship, it feels as much like cheating as any affair would. But is it really all that different when you're single? If you let your strip club habit become a substitute for a real romance, are you cheating on yourself in a sense? I don't think I'm being too hard on myself to at least feel conflicted about it.
  • FONDL
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    17 years ago
    The idea that a man find total fulfillment - sex, love, mother of his children, homemaker, friend - in one woman is a relatively recent concept, pretty much unique to our society's middle class and the last 100 years or so. And frankly, if you look at the number of unhappy marriages, dysfunctional families and divorces, it hasn't worked very well. It's a noble experiment that has largely failed. For the sake of social stability we pretend otherwise. It's the ultimate hypocrisy and we're all guilty of it. The strip club is perceived as a "safe" way for many married men to take a little break from their self-imposed monogamy. For a brief while they can pretend that they have a girl friend. The fact that the girl is often a lot younger adds to the appeal. It's a way for older married men to escape the pressures of their reality. And the fact that there's some danger involved adds to the appeal. If society didn't strongly push us in that direction, how many of us would freely choose to spend our entire lives working for someone else all day long to support a wife and family? How many of us have fantasized about chucking it all and pursuing a totally different kind of life? The strip club is largely unique in allowing us to do that for a short period of time. I think a lot of strippers understand this fairly well, if not explicitly at least intuitively, and take advantage of it. I once asked my ATF what she thought of older married men in her strip club. She said that she admired them, because they're not out somewhere else cheating on their wives. I think that's pretty perceptive.
  • chandler
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    17 years ago
    FONDL: Exactly, and my solution has been to settle for sex and love from one woman. OK, maybe sex from two, or three, or... Now, my only problem is finding another who'd be cool with being just mother of my children/homemaker/friend.
  • AbbieNormal
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    17 years ago
    David9999, you highlight my point very well. Genes and biology are very slow to adapt, but socially we are very nimble and can shortcut genetic and biologic dead ends with social adaptations. True, the hard wiring will still attempt to rule, but society and our upbringing can add another layer of wiring. That is why I've always hated the nature/nurture arguments. It is blindingly obvious both are very important. I'd agree with FONDL to a limited extent on the recent nature of marriage. The idea of picking your own mate for love is very recent. The idea of marying and working together exclusively to raise a family is much older. To an extent I think we have unrealistic expectations of love and marriage, hence countless "open" marriages throughout many societies, as long as the indescretions were discrete and the social norms and sanctity of the family respected. Chandler, I don't think I meant or said "don't be so hard on yourself" was a philosophical touchstone. My argument was more of a "this is reality" line of reasoning, absent moral judgements but recognizing that society does impose them. As far as guilt goes I really don't think most people dwell on it much. Feeling guilty for going into a strip club is not likely a big factor in preventing that behavior. Getting caught and the public shame would be a far more powerful deterrent. I think most social sins are like that.
  • chandler
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    17 years ago
    AN: Pardon me. I didn't mean to say that lay at the core of everything you wrote, only what I took to be the practical upshot for the kind of transgressions we're discussing. Don't feel you're a monster for cutting yourself a little socially-condoned slack. Better?
  • DougS
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    17 years ago
    Guilt.. Maybe - okay, definitely - I am morally deficient. I SHOULD be filled with guilt when going to the clubs, and doing the things that I do there. I should feel especially guilty for having these pseudo-affairs, affairs of the mind or whatever you want to call them. Why don't I harbor those guilt feelings? Avoidance? Compartmentalization? Lack of morality? Probably a combination, but another aspect is likely to be the fact that the enjoyment factor is so high that it outweighs everything else. Sometimes I feel like I live two totally separate lives. When I'm with my ATF, nothing else matters.
  • ThisOldManPlayed1
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    17 years ago
    DougS - I can understand your predictament well. Try not to feel guilty. You've got to remember that we are "men" and have different chemical makeup than "women". Sure, there are a few men that wouldn't ever think twice about 'stepping out' on their SOs. But, I think, in the long run, there are more men than women that will lead 'secret' lives of which could be judged by morality. Mentally, I don't think about what is morale or what is not anymore. Even when I was married, I still had my 'secret' fantasies of other women. Now, with a S.O. living far away from me, I have to endulge in 'guilt-ridden' trips to SCs? NOT! I have no legal committment to my S.O., therefore I have no moral committment either. I'm my own man and am bound and determined to live the remainder of my life the way I want. DougS, you are of the majority, not of the minority. Throw guilt out the window and enjoy life, while we can good buddy!
  • David9999
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    17 years ago
    Pseudo-affair is a good description in this alternative reality world, and this is particularly true I noticed in the strictly in-the-club deals when extended kissing starts with some of these girls, whether AFT or semi-regular types- that's when the guilt starts going way way up.
  • chandler
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    17 years ago
    For me, a little guilt definitely adds to my pleasure. A big part of my attraction to strip clubs is the feeling of transgression. Although I don't have an SO to feel guilty about (and I would be too consumed by guilt if I did), just the awareness that anything this pleasurable must carry a cost that I'm not reckoning with is enough for me.
  • shadowcat
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    17 years ago
    Bones said " I'm my own man and am bound and determined to live my life the way I want." On another thread he suggested that he and I were hatched from the same egg. He may be right.
  • ThisOldManPlayed1
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    17 years ago
    That's why I like hangin' around shadowcat.... it's almost a "mirror" image of me. He's like my OLDER brother I never had! Only by 5 years though.
  • ozymandias
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    17 years ago
    It can be too personal to be a safe "affair substitute"... indeed, it can develop into an actual affair. Trust me on this, I know of what I speak ;) ESCORTS are an affair substitute. Well, and AMP girls. Pay your fee, fuck her an hour, and leave. Rinse and repeat as needed. Steer clear of SWs though - wouldn't it suck to have your wife bail you out of jail, suddenly realizing where she got that vaginal infection? Thankfully, I DON't know of what I speak there, but I can imagine worst case scenarios! O.
  • FONDL
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    17 years ago
    Ozymandias, seems to me it's the opportunity for some emotional involvement that many of us like about strip clubs. Seems to me that's generally going to be missing with either escorts or AMP girls, unless you keep seeing the same one over and over again. No one said that involvement with a stripper was safe, but I think the idea of it being an affair substitute is an interesting way of looking at it. I'm sure that for some customers that's exactly what it is.
  • ozymandias
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    17 years ago
    I agree to a point. The problem is that most strippers are, frankly, pretty unprofessional - they get as caught up and confused as the customer in many cases. I know it's happened between certain dancers and me. IN that sense, the affair is "real" not "substitute". An escort tends to be better at compartmentalizing the sex from the emotional involvement. It feels like an affair for the appointment (if she's "GFE") and then it ends. Substitute. Now, if you mean just sitting in a club chatting with the girl then sure, I can see how that's a substitute for the flirtation element of an affair. When it leaves the club though, it becomes just as real as an office or any other kind of affair. O.
  • FONDL
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    17 years ago
    I don't consider it a problem that many dancers are pretty unprofessional, in fact those are exactly the ones who I seek out. And there are also plenty of unprofessional escorts out there. The degree of professionalism and ability to compartmentalize is more a function of age and experience than it is what segment of the sex industry they may choose to participate in. And I think most SOs would prefer to have their guy hang out with a stripper in her club now and then instead of hiring FS escorts, regardless of the degree of emotional involvement he may develop with the stripper.
  • David9999
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    17 years ago
    Agree with FONDL, the "unprofessional" dancers (in the context of being unprofessional by being unable to always compartmentalize) are actually what makes it all that much more interesting, these are the most interesting dancers. Just reading between the lines, sensing, understanding, interpreting their various reactions etc - can itself be alot of fun, and this is particularly the case with dancers that are into the more sensuous (no extra) type of "dance", and you are responding in-kind. We all know the basic equation: PL has private dance with Miss Fake-it, and I can agree that's the way it is 95 to 99% of the time, however when it goes off script, that is what makes it all worth while.
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