Why do we get so attached?

I'm just enjoying a second childhood before I get too old.

This is easy. Your favorite dancer meets most or all the expectations you would want in a ladyfriend. Sexy, Smart and has a Nice personality. What more could a guy want in a woman??

I don't think that's really it, Jpac. Those are qualities to admire, not love. I think we get attached when they show themselves to be imperfect, human and approachable. Onstage, a dancer may appear to be an inattainable goddess. Then, she comes down and sits with you and confides a few embarrassing personal details, and your heart goes out to her. You make a connection, and the difference in years seems to evaporate your bliss. Of course, it doesn't hurt if she is extremely sexy.

My take on it is that she's a fantasy--of course we're attached to her. The fantasy is terrific. The trouble starts when we manage to forget it's a fantasy.

What's not to like? Where else can you go from a casual greeting to seeing her naked within minutes? And it's easy (albeit expensive). With a few bucks (sometimes hundreds) you can obtain the undivided attention of a goddess who is generally in a playful mood and is all too willing to stroke our egos -- among other things. She laughs at our jokes and is always interested in what we have to say.

FONDL,

For me it was easy. First, she was Asian. Secondly, we had music in common at the club. Metal and not the typical club BS! Third, as we've both stated, I think I was the father figure in her life.

There are so many ways to answer this question FONDL, and I would guess the answers would depend on our own differences as well.

For me, I think a part of it is that attachment comes from two people opening themselves up and being vulnerable to one another. I think of many dancers as being quite vulnerable, but often with elaborate defenses. When they let their guard down, that is a welcome sign for us. They will only do that if we reciprocate. And so, the hidden dance begins, and sometimes it achieves some beautiful synchrony, yes?

Hey, thanks for agreeing with me, Harrydave. I'm not sure about the hidden dance bit, though. Might be a regional feature.

FONDL, You know I like you bro but don't say "we". I never was able to fool myself into believing anything other than what it is. ENTERTAINMENT. Just take it for what it is and enjoy the evening. Fuck falling in love with a stripper. Who needs that shit?

I can't say, since I'm not in my 60's, but it has to be the part about opening up to a dancer. After all, we don't attach ourselves to every dancer, but its got to be about honest communication. I can't speak for the married here, but my some point and there just become things you can't talk about with her you can with a stripper. Hell, it doesn't absolutely have to be a stripper, really, but it's nicer with one, because she shows off her naked self and talks about stuff you could never talk about with your wife or girlfriend.

parodyman->,

You ought to read what FONDL typed BEFORE you post here. He typed "Many of us, including me, have...". You can be one of the NOT "Many of us...".

The "hidden dance" I referred to is the dance of non-verbal communication that goes on between two people. It's not about hormones. Our brains have very active areas that mediate our social and interpesonal behaviors. We do communicate even with our mouths closed, mainly through very subtle facial expressions and body posture. We can read and process these signals from other people and respond, all in less than a second, and before our brain has the chance to form words. We encounter a girls in a club, get a chance to look her in the face at close range, and before we think "Hey, she's attractive". we are attracted and we send her our sign of approval, and she reacts to that. Then our frontal lobe gets in gear, and we open our mouth and speak (and things usually get f**cked up from there on out!).

For the exceptionally nerdy and patient, read "Social Intelligence" by Daniel Goleman. It will make you think differently about communication between two people.

So, I was partially right. It's a regional feature of the brain.

I wonder if some of us are forgetting that the question is why do WE get so attached. Whether or not SHE gets attached is usually a completely separate matter. I think we tend to project onto her what we want her to be like and what we hope she feels about us - lover, buddy, father figure, whatever works for you. Even an ATF you think you've come to know intimately has kept vast parts of herself private from us, and we fill in the blanks with traits and feelings that are nice to imagine. In this way, strippers are like what they say about the greatest movie stars - they leave much of themselves a mystery into which audiences project their deepesgt desires. That's powerful stuff to grow attached to.

Interesting responses. I especially agree with Chandlers "imperfect, human and approachable" and harrydave's "opening themselves up and being vulnerable." Those are both big parts of it for me.

But I think the biggest draw for me is that there were things missing in my life and my ATF came along and filled the void. I had needs that weren't being met to my satisfaction, and she was both willing and able to fill them and vice versa. She also was totally nonjudgmental, she accepted me the way I am, flaws and all, which meant I could talk about anything with her. How many people in our lives are willing to do that?

I also found it interesting that very few people here disagreed with my premise that many of us become very attached to these girls. I expected more argument on that. And parodyman has it wrong, it's not falling in love, it's something very different. I doubt if any of us would think of it as falling in love, especially those of us for whom there's a big age difference.

We get attached to them because they are a perfect fantasy. We go home and imagine how perfect we think they would be if it were a real relationship. The rules of the club stop us from going far enough into reality to find out they are people with problems, problems probably bigger than our own. But we never see that because when they are with us they are on their best behavior in order to get the money they charge us. They are attached to us because if we are a regular to them the average dancer desperately need regulars to have a successful business. Only the knock-outs or girls that provide high mileage can go to work each day and meet 20 new guys and be successful. They become attached to us much like we become attached and passionate about our work. If you like your job, you become attached and passionate about it. The girls do the same regarding their regulars. It's the part of their job they like. We are the perfect friend to them because we too are on good behavior and they never really see our negative sides. For the reasons above, OTC relationships almost never have a chance of success, because taking the relationship into the real world becomes difficult for both sides.

I'm in the same boat as FONDL and shadowcat!

Like parodyman, I'm not really fooled by the dancers, as it is always about the money, to which I am ready to depart with, for my ENTERTAINMENT. But, a lot of us are vulnerable (not sucker-wise), because we care about people in general, even strippers.

My current problem is that I am attached to my massage therapist, 27 year old divorcee (8.5), flaming long red hair, and a nicely packaged body! Her massages run $43 per hour and are full bodied (except the genitals - damn it!). No happy endings with her (YET?), but still slowly working on it. She is very adament about keeping things 'in perspective' at least at her place of business. As she is new in business with her cousin, she tells me that I am her No. 1 regular (which I am). When in town, I drive 32 miles (one way) to get my massages, so I usually get a two-hour massage, with a smoke break inbetween the two hours. I pay her $100 (hence a $14 tip). I've taken her out to dinner several times. I partied with her and friends once & she drinks like a fish and blacked out.

So, why am I so attached to her? Challenge! Yes, a challenge to see how far she will go to FULLY please me!

>I also found it interesting that very few people here disagreed with my premise that many of us become very attached to these girls.<

FONDL, I can feel attached to the teller at my bank if she smiles like she remembers me. It's a natural impulse.

As for the age difference, we've discussed this before, but it's often much easier for both parties to let their guard down. With your peers, you tend to care more about being judged with approval.

Great topic... and very profound and enlightening answers.

I think the majority of the reasons that we get so (too?) attached have been mentioned, so I really can't add to much, other than to say why >>I<< have gotten so (too?) attached.

-> you have to start from the beginning. You CHOSE your fav / ATF, picking her over the other girls because she turns you on physically. Personally, I only get dances from girls that I find totally attractive and who has the traits that I desire.

-> the open conversation, and learning about one another makes me feel closer to her. Seeing that vulnerable side turns up the heat another notch. I like taking care of and looking after girls that want / need to be taken care of. (another reason that when we hear to much about SOs it has a negative impact, unless of course he's a jerk that can't or won't take care of her)

-> the way she fills a void. I wouldn't be going to clubs in the first place if I was completely happy with my marriage and wife. There is definitely something lacking there - mostly because we've been together so long that the "spark" is not there. Getting that "butterflies in your stomach" feeling when you see her has not been there for a LONG time, but is WAY strong with my ATF. You get to experience all of those "firsts" again... first kiss, etc. How exciting that can be!

-> ego... you have to admit, it's pretty cool to think to yourself that you are spending time with a stripper, especially OTC. It's an amazing and an ego-stroking experience to walk into a restaurant with her in your arms, seeing other guys take notice of her, then look at you - you can see the envy in their eyes.

-> age difference.. there's 23 years difference between my ATF and myself. Honestly, when we are together, I have never once thought about the age difference. She makes me feel younger, AND she makes me feel like it doesn't matter to her and it doesn't matter to me. Through her, everything seems fresher. There's probably also the element of trying to grab onto the time slipping away. It could be mid-life crisis-esque.

-> attention and playtime... how can you not fall for a pretty girl that showers so much attention on you, and lets you play with her, too (even if you are giving her money for it - directly or indirectly)

-> positive sides ... since we always see only their good sides, what's there not to like. We don't hear the nagging, complaining, etc., from them that we might hear from our SOs. There's an expression that you never know what a person is REALLY like until you've fought with them and lived with them. Since neither one is likely to happen, she remains the princess.

-> when we spend time with them, it's usually in a party-like atmosphere, so good times are being experienced and fun times are had by all. I'm sure there's a Pavlovian thing going on, and we associate our dancer friend with good times. Kind'a like now, when I smell the shampoo that my ATF uses, it's like an instant tent is pitched in the front of my pants.

I think that pretty much sums it up, however I'm not sure where harrydave's "hidden dance" theory comes into play. I guess if I relate it back to the Love Corner at the Hip Hugger, where it's nearly completely dark and thus the dance is hidden... There it's very easy to get addicted to the "hidden dance".

Ok, forget about the "hidden dance". My dad was a psychologist. But, as we all know, communication is a two way thing, with both the low road and the high road fully engaged.

As for attachment, I think Doug nailed it.

>...so I really can't add to much, other than to say...<

Famous last words.

Well I haven't agreed or disagreed with any statements so far because I just read this thread a few minutes ago. I don't feel that attached to dancers. However if she's pretty and putting on the charm and smiles, what's not to like about that? The dancers that I may get a bit attached to at least temporarily have usually invited me to meet up with them outside the club environment. We might go out to eat or spend time at her place. Often it seems like the more you know, the less attracted you are to her. Reality sets in. You're no longer seeing the fantasy especially when you start getting in arguments with her. Sometimes the arguments don't last long at all because you may simply break everything off with her. Sometimes you run back into each other and end up seeing each other again. She puts on the charm and smiles again and by that time, she may even feel like she knows you and may start trusting you more. She's like a former girlfriend by that time. There hasn't been as big an age difference between me and many of the dancers though. One of the first dancers that asked me out for a bite to eat was 2 years older than me. She even said to me she liked being with someone around her own age. That was many years ago though. I am older than most dancers now.

Parodyman has a point since at least in some cases it's a form of being in love. There is no way around this. Its very similar in many cases to a flat out "being in love" kind of affair or relationship, just generally minus full blown sex. DougS is talking about "butterflies" that are "way strong". The poster on the other thread who gotted banned from the club because the club and the dancer thought he was a stalker, is now apparently in deep agony "missing" his dancer. These longer term ATF type arrangments are not just like the attachment formed by seeing the smiling pretty bank teller in your town every week. What's most amazing is how the entire subject of ATFs is understood by so few in the outside world. They don't seem to have a clue and the media continues to ignore it and instead continues focusing on the seedy side of stripping, which is probably best for everyone anyways.

Those 6" platforms don't exactly hurt and if the deal is kept in the club -that's all you are generally going to see. So you got a major fantasy just with that. Figure it this way, in the real world if a woman happens to have a nice personality and a nice ass, she will tend to attract alot of guys. Most strippers know how to turn up the charm for the money, so assuming she has a good personality to begin with, it then can become a super-personality, and the platforms take care of the rest, turning a good/avg ass into great ass or if she is lucky enough to already have a great ass - into a world class ass. Great personality and world class ass - hard not to get "attached" to

Chandler: Sorry... as usual, I got a little carried away...

David9999: Yeah, it's very similar to "being in love". I'd say that it IS "being in love", but I can't bring myself to saying that. It just sounds too pathetic, and way too early. For sure it's a strong case of "being in lust".

The dancers certainly know certain regulars are "in love" at some level. While its true romantic love is sort of a pass/fail deal where one is either "in love" or they are not and there is not much in-between and it either some kind of "magic" or not, (especially the way chicks fall "in love" with guys) - there is however degrees of being "in love" (the intensity of the butterflies, missing someone, thinking about them, believing the stars are aligning etc)

It appears that most established dancers have at least one and perhaps several guys consistently spending (lets say) 1500 to 2000 a month or more on them month after month, I would guess typically those kind of guys are "in love" - lets assume its Third Degree love in most cases, with First Degree "in love" being the real world/real deal/head over heels/full sex situation - although in the real world one can and will experience this so-called Third Degree "in love" situation also. or for that matter Second Degree.

Most established dancers also seem to have (guesstimate) 1 to 4 other regulars who are either broke, live far away, only see her once a month or every few weeks - some of these guys I would wager can be "in love" also - some of course just there for the pure physical deal

Any dancer that could lets say get 10 customers, preferably married guys, with lots of money and/or willing to spend lots of money and the time to see her every week -to "fall in love" with her, and she could juggle them w/o too much club time overlap, and assume that each guy understands the innate limitations of the "relatinship" - I believe this would be near ideal arrangement for many dancers, as they are certainly going to make huge money

A big problem with that many guys of course is that the in-between time (assuming it exists) (VIP/CR time vs hanging in the regular club time) a dancer and a customer spend together, other customers might see them together, which is especially problematic if the girl is doing the head on the guys shoulder routine/handholding stuff "in public" - meaning in the club. Skipping that "public" time I suppose is possible in theory

I enjoyed reading DougS's analogy in his thread. It was long, but very detailed, and true, especially the 'ego' thing. Bravo Doug!

-> ego... Like Doug & the rest of us, our EGO needs stroked and it's great when done by a much younger beautiful girl. 33 years difference between me and my therapist. I enjoy the looks I get from other guys, even if they see me as a 'sugar daddy'.

Clubbing helps me stay and feel young. I like to keep tan and workout to keep my appearance up, so I can continue getting the compliments from the dancers, whether it's SS or not.

Nothing to be sorry about, Doug. I thought you'd be amused by the irony.

Another reason we grow attached is because our feelings always appear to get reciprocated. A stripper's job is to make us believe the attachment is mutual, so we receive an automatic reward for feeling that way, even though we know it's actually our money that is being rewarded.

Chandler: Yes, I was amused by the irony of my statement. Until I read your response, I'd forgotten that I'd even typed that phrase. I guess it's easy for me to get carried away talking (typing) and thinking about topics that are "near and dear" to me. Besides, SOMEone has to fill the void created by the absence of BookGuy!

Very well put chandler. Kudos!

On the reciprocity issue, in an ATF situation obviously very very rarely would the dancer actually be "in love" (in the traditional sense) or even on the brink of it with the customer, however a customer can sometimes sense when there is an element of mutuality, whether its even 1% or 10% or whatever -and (as many in here would know) that can be hugely important to the customer.

It would seem logical for a customer considering building an ATF arrangement to avoid dancers that they know (very early-on) are in the typical intense/all consuming early phases of real life "in love" situations with real life boyfriends, as basically the customer is all but assured the girl cannot give anything back, sometimes even for years. Either dancers out of current relationships or in a troubled or dead marriages or relationships - would seem to be much better prospects, assuming the customer wants and needs at least a small element of mutuality.

CasualGuy you posted "Sometimes the arguments don't last long at all because you may simply break everything off with her. Sometimes you run back into each other and end up seeing each other again. She puts on the charm and smiles again" I take it the meeting is sort of like the ATF equivalent of (real world) make-up sex. I've noticed even with non-AFT situations, for example girls you "dance" with now and then, there can be this kind of intensity and furiosity when (for whatever reason)you've not seen them or they seemed angry other times when you've previously refused them for dances. The parallels to real life are very strange

a bit of a side note but related to the ideal 10 regulars comments as being ideal made earlier with this just posted today on the Pink site how difficult the issue is for dancers when juggling multiple regulars

"Last night was sooooooooo frustrating. I had two very good spending regs ITC at once and I handled it bad. Reg 1: PL, annoying as fuck to deal with, worst breath in the world, has been my reg for 8 months and comes in once or twice per week Reg 2: Nice and fun to have ITC, not a PL, smells nice, has been a reg for a few months and comes in once or twice per week also

So Reg 1 was in first and I did $250 worth of dances for him and he planned to get the same again when I finished on stage. Then reg 2 came in by surprise (he usually comes in MUCH LATER in the night). So I say hi to him and then reg 1 tells me to dance for reg 2 (he didnt realise he was a reg but he always tells me to do dances for other customers in between him). So I dance for reg 2 and then I go to speak to reg 1 and to do the rest of the dances he wants BUT NO he wants to friggin talk!! Ok his breath is the worst smelling shit on this earth. He is boring and annoying and I just wanted to get away from him so I said "oh that other guy wants more dances should I go?" and he told me to.

Anyway later on when I went back to reg 1 he was PISSED. He told me he had been waiting for 2 hours and then he left without giving me anymore money. It was a disaster. I wanted to spend more time with reg 2 because I actually enjoy spending time with him ITC but coz he isn't a PL I dont expect to have him as a reg for too much longer hence why I dont want to completely piss off reg 1. How the fuck should I have handled this?"

Bones, your situation with your massage therapist doesn't sound like a problem to me, in fact it sounds just about perfect - don't screw it up by expecting too much. As you know, my ATF is also my massage therapist, but she lives 1200 miles away so I don't get to see her very often. Massages around here cost about $75 an hour and even at that I haven't found anyone I like. But I'll keep looking.

FONDL - Actually, I'd rather go to my MT rather than SCs, because everything is straight up! No hassle, no stories, etc. The reason the massages are so cheap is that she is still a Massage Technician (graduate of massage school, but not yet state board certified). Once she passes her state board exam, she becomes a Licensed Massage Therapist (LMT), thus her prices will go up some.

What usually happens is after visiting her and getting a one-hour or two-hour massage, I'm so frustratingly horny, I sometimes end up at a local SC (if you want to call them that in Columbus) for more 'detailed' attention. LOL

Bones, I guess every state is different. PA doesn't license massage therapists so anyone can offer massages although most therapists advertise that they have a national certification. In FL, where my ATF lives, you can't charge money for a massage without a state license. Even the place where they give it has to be inspected and licensed.

I too would rather get a massage from a young, attractive and personable girl than go to a strip club. But since my regular therapist moved I haven't been able to find anyone I like. Just be careful how you approach your girl if you're trying to convince her to do more, it could all come to a screeching halt- some therapists are very sensitive about that stuff. I think you'd be better off discussing it sometime when she isn't giving you a massage, like over dinner or drinks.

FONDL - Yeah, I've done that already. I once told her that I would love the opportunity to make love to her. She came back with, "Well, you can't have both". Meaning, I guess, that she couldn't be a lover to me as well as a MT. I don't know if she was infering that she would expect money as a lover vs. expecting money for massages, and I wasn't about to go into that.

I'm not going to press the issue with her, but I know for a fact, that I bring in more income (roughly 90%) to her and she counts on that money to survive. I'm her only regular client, getting massages twice a week when I'm in town. I'll tell her when I leave for out of town and my expected return. She won't even write the dates down, but textes me on my returning day, asking me how the trip was and when she can expect me in. That pretty much tells me the income is important.

I'm just going to keep approaching it slowly, one step at a time. I don't think she'd ever tell me to never come back, because of the income issue. She now, lets me give her quickie neck & back massages before I leave, helping me along with instructions. LOL

Thanks for the advice, as I know you know exactly what I am going through.

Bones: You young whipper snappers are always thinking with the little head. We got an MT at my favorite club. Dee Dee. The club can't advertise it anymore because they do not have a license for it. If that doesn't work, there is always M.H.

Bones, I've never tried to convince either of my massage therapists to do anything extra. But I once did have an interesting conversation with my local girl (who unfortunately moved away) - we were talking about the differences between her massage technique and my ATF's and I mentioned that one difference was that she covered me from head to toe with a cotton sheet while my ATF usually only covers my midsection with a towel. To which she responded that she hade some customers who she didn't cover at all. She explained that covering the customer is mainly an East Coast thing, that in the West and in Europe the customer is usually naked. I asked her if she liked that and she said yes because she felt she could give a better massage that way. She also said that in the West there are fancy upscale spas where both therapist and customer get naked, eg. places that have natural hot springs. (There's actually a school of massage in California that teaches nude massage.) We never talked about it again and I don't know what might have happened if we did. But it's an example of how you could approach the subject - get her talking about how massages are done in other parts of the world where nudity isn't as big a deal as it is here.

Bones, one other thought - have you ever offered to give her a massage? Ask her to teach you, you might even offer to pay her to do so.