Op-Ed column

Scott, you have to be member of Times Select to read that article. Can you summarize it for us?

Here is the article. Obviously (I hope), nobody believes that underaged or emotionally vulnerable people should be in any position that could endanger them in any way. Why the vulnerability of some people should limit the activities of everyone is something I don't understand. The Supreme Court, in some of its pornography decisions, has said that the permissible norms of society are not to be determined by the sensibilities of its most sensitive members.

Other than that, I'm not sure what the man's point is.



BOB HERBERT: Escape From Las Vegas
Amber is 19 years old and on Sunday she caught a flight out of Las Vegas’s McCarran International Airport and went home to a small town in Minnesota, not far from the Iowa border.

I’m rooting for her. She’s low on funds (“I’ve got my ticket, that’s about all,” she said), and she’s at a crucial turning point in her life.

The question is whether she will go off to college in Florida, and stick with it, which she insists is what she wants to do, or whether she will slip back into her life as a stripper and lap dancer, which is so often the start of the descent into the hell of prostitution.

“I hate the dancing,” she told me. “Sometimes I think I don’t have a strong enough mind for it, because of the way people treat me.”

I met Amber in Las Vegas last week. I was with Melissa Farley, a psychologist and researcher who was asked by the head of the U.S. State Department’s anti-trafficking office to do a study of the sex trade and its consequences in Nevada.

(She published the book-length study this week under the title, “Prostitution and Trafficking in Nevada: Making the Connections.”)

Amber’s story is far more typical than many Americans would like to acknowledge. There are many thousands of Ambers across the country, naïve kids from dysfunctional homes who are thrown willy-nilly into the adult, take-no-prisoners environment of the sex trade with no preparation, no guidance and no support at all.

They are the prey in the predatory world of pimps, johns and perverts that goes by the euphemism: adult entertainment.

Amber’s parents are divorced. Her mother, with whom she lives when she’s in Minnesota, is both physically and emotionally ill.

For awhile, she said, she had a stepfather who physically abused both her and her mother.

“He was on meth,” Amber said. “He’d hit us, scream at my mother. We’d make dinner and he’d go into a rage and throw away the whole dinner. So we’d go without dinner that night.”

Amber was both shy and rebellious and began dancing at a strip club in Minnesota on a dare. That was several months ago.

One afternoon a wrestling coach from her high school came in while she was dancing. “I was topless,” she said, “and I just wanted to crawl into a hole.”

She saved enough money to go to Vegas and tried out for a job there. “The manager told me, ‘You can’t work for me. You’re too big,’ ” she said. “So I didn’t eat for four days. All I had that whole time was one bowl of cereal and some water. It was horrible. I lost 10 pounds and went back. He made me take off all my clothes and dance for him. And then he said I was still too big. You have to be practically anorexic to dance for him.”

I asked why she continued dancing even though she hated it. Her face took on the puzzled look of a kid who had no good answer for not doing her homework.

“I don’t know,” she said. “It’s not very logical, is it?”

She got a job at Sheri’s Cabaret on South Highland Avenue, which trumpets to all and sundry that its dancers are completely nude. The owners of the cabaret also own Sheri’s Ranch, a legal brothel about an hour’s ride outside of Vegas.

“It’s unbelievable the way the customers degrade you,” Amber said. “Their hands are all over you and they’re always trying to have sex with you.”

I asked if she’d ever been tempted to give in. She waited a long moment before answering.

“Sometimes I am,” she said. “Sometimes a guy will offer a lot of money, and I might think that could help with whatever I need for that month. But then I think, I just can’t do that. Nobody should violate my body like that.”

I asked Amber why she was willing to talk candidly and on the record about her experiences. She said, “I want people to know what it’s like for us. They think we’re just a bunch of lowlifes who like to get naked for money. We’re not. We go through a lot.”

When I asked her if she ever wanted to get married and raise a family, she was unequivocal.

“No” she said. “I don’t want any of that. I just feel if I get married the guy will change and show his true colors. I don’t want that to happen to me.”

She swears she’s going to school and will try to find work in the fashion industry.

I asked if she thought she would ever go back to dancing.

“Probably not,” she said.
posted by See You

To me, what he is doing is ignoring the vast majority of all dancers and looking for the one who "proves" the point he wants to make. Only there is always going to be one who wants to bail out of the business and those are the ones who talk to NY Times reporters.

In my job, I work with a former dancer and she always talks about it like it was exploitation like Amber does in this story. But then again, every dancer thinks everything Amber thinks at some point and every job out there is exploitation to some degree.

Jerks like this have blinders on, they only see what they want to see. The article reminds me of a recent editorial in my local paper following the arrest of some hookers and their customers. The editorial argued that prostitution isn't a victimless crime, then pointed out all the bad things that often accompany it. But what they totally overlooked was that these bad things weren't the result of prostitution itself, they result from the fact that it's illegal and therefore by definition it's forced underground and controlled by criminals. Legalize it and regulate it the same as any other business and all those bad things disappear. Same is true with the strip club industry. Same is true for most illegal drugs too for that matter.

I don't see what his point is at all, except that stripping is bad and many girls who strip wish they were doing something else (such as going to college!) I don't have any argument with that. However, Bob Herbert is a naive simpleton to think that this is some revelation. I wonder how much "Amber" took him for with her mawkish tales of victimhood and "swearing she's going to school".

blah blah blah....this guy went looking for the case study to prove the point he was going to make regardless. if he had met my atf, he wld have disregarded everything she had to say and plowed right ahead, i'm sure. look, every society is going to have some losers. i love the part where he asks her....gee, lil girl, if you hate stripping so much why ever would you do it, and she blinked her big puzzled retarded eyes and says dunno. um....same reason anybody does any job they hate....they need the $ and nothing better has come up. sad fact, can't live without $. btw, i have met dancers who have a degree, my atf has her bachelor's and cld care less about getting a master's or working in her field. there's no real reporting here, just a guy who doesn't like sc's. and that's fine, i guess.
also, i have never heard of a sc telling a girl to drop weight. ever. i live in atl, have spoken to many dancers. and there are some somewhat heavy girls that dance and make good $ here. so i like the way he hits on another very sore topic, women being exploited by having eating disorders forced on them, when everyone knows most men don't care so long as you're not obese. if anything i think sc's and porno mag's can help women feel better about their bodies after looking at that nasty runway ribcage-and-spine-sticking-out standard.

Ok, let's pick out the information that might give us some clues. These are quotes from the article with my "caustic" commentary:

1) "kids from dysfunctional homes" - no surprise there

2) "thrown willy nilly into ...the sex trade" - not sure how she got thrown in; never told by a stripper she was forced or coerced into it.

3) "stepfather physically abused her" - yeah, that's is a common theme; now we're starting to get somewhere, it was meth-head stepdad

4) "began dancing at a strip club...on a dare...several months ago" - most likely the dare was from another girl; and several months is not exactly a descent into hell

5) "you have to be practically anorexic" - the owner wanted slim girls, that prick!;actually, plenty of clubs with heavy girls, even in Vegas

6) "I asked if she'd ever been tempted to give in..." - and her answer was "No", so what the f**k are we talking about here; seems like she set her own personal limits.

7) "I just feel if I get married the guy will change and show his true colors" - can't blame her for that attitude after the bad time with mom and step dad.

So what does this add up to? Girl runs away from crappy family life, discovers she can make easy money, doesn't trust guys, nows wants a better life. Call or write your congressman today!

The worst sin of the article was being so boring. I wouldn't mind reading somebody make a case against stripping, but you better bring something stronger than a bunch of tired old cliches. Stripping should provoke a reaction, so if you're not gonna at least come out and say what you think, you're just a pussy and a waste of time.

Angelfly, I've known of many instances where managers told strippers they had to lose weight. It's a fact of life in an industry where appearance matters. I wish a lot more managers insisted on it instead of letting out-of-shape women take the stage.

Yes, but Chandler that's just wrong, A girl's weight is her own business and no one else's. I mean can you imagine a manager of a professional ballet troup telling a fat girl to lose weight? How insensitive can you get?

I am sure that some SC manager's tell there girls to lose some weight. Some clubs are known for having the hottest girls do not want an overweight girl working there.

I have been in strip clubs where I wish they would tell the girls to lose some weight. But on the other hand those girls give more mileage most of the time.

FONDL: I don't know what I was thinking. I should know that strip clubs exist first and foremost to allow fat girls to feel better about themselves so that they don't pass on second helpings and become anorexic.

Fondl: What's wrong about Chandler's statement? Yes, I HAVE heard of professional ballet dancers being told to lose weight... and waitresses and models and yes, strippers. If you own a business and the business is influenced by the looks of your employees, I believe you have every right to ask that they make themselves as presentable as possible. My niece was a Hooters girl for a while, and the manager "suggested" that she get a breast job. It happens.

Doug, it looks like your sarcasm detector is due for a tune up.

But seriously, I've never heard of a manager insisting on an unhealthy degree of weight loss. Whenever I hear dancers complain about "anorexic" standards, like Amber does, I take that to be a red herring from an overweight girl who doesn't want to summon the self-control necessary to look fit.

I wonder if there are any strip clubs called Fat Girls (or maybe Phat Girlz?) I've been to a couple that should have been.

Hint regarding sarcasm: since this board is OPEN TO ALL COMERS, if you are gonna go sarcastic, you have to either go HEAVY SARCASM or expect someone to misunderstand. I still remember my mortification as a teenager when somebody finally got around to telling me that Jonathan Swift was just kidding with his "Modest Proposal". Later I was happy to learn that he had misled a lot of other readers. Anyway, here's my take on the OP-ED piece (I will ignore the issue of whether managers try to get fat strippers to lose weight -- that is even more boring than Herbert's drivel.
My take on Herbert: move on to the next subject, buddy. you totally blew it this time but hey, ya got a contract, better get another column ready ASAP. You could talk bout dogfighting or the lottery, for example. Or about the mean mortgage brokers who took advantage of naive first-time underfinanced buyers. Hey I just had an original idea: why not write a column comparing the evil strippers who lie to take our money with the evil mortgage brokers who lie to take our money. Now there is a WINNING TOPIC. Oops I have inadvertantly fallen into my low-impact Jonathan Swift satire. Outtahere!

Arbeeguy, thanks all the same for your hint, but I don't see a problem. FONDL's sarcasm was directed at me, and I got it. Somebody's always going to misunderstand, no matter what you post, so I see no reason the board being open means we must aim everything to the lowest common denominator (no offense, Doug).

I agree, Bob Herbert is a naive simpleton. Although I guess we all have to admire him for taking on such a vocal and powerful force as the pro-abusing teenage girls into a life of stripping lobby. In fact I admire him almost as much as I revere princess Di for taking on the powerful pro-maiming children with landmines lobby.

I wish I'd read this thread before my review of DC's Royal Palace. Phat Girlz would have been the perfect line for that.

Am I too late with the fat dancer stories? 6 months ago my favorite club's management went on the rampage to get rid of over weight dancers. I know of 3 that were on that list. Pleasure quit. Braxton lost a considerable amount of weight and Carmen got fired. Braxton is now more confident in herself and is making more money.

I'm confused. How could I possibly have made my sarcasm any heavier? That's as heavy as I know how to get. Usualy I'm much more subtle than that. But Chandler and I have a history here, we've had some fun repartee. So I guess if you didn't know that ...

AN, haven't been to Royal Palace in years, but I always thought it was THE DC raunchy club. I don't recall any fat girls but I do recall lots of tatoos and spikey hairdos and muscules. I always assumed that all the girls there were lesbians, after all it is in the gay part of town. Isn't it like that anymore?

FONDL, I've occasionally joked about feeling like you need a shower after leaving Royal Palace. I literally had to shower after my last visit. Luckily I have a locker at work with a change of clothes. It is still the nastiest club in town, but unfortunately that title isn't earned by the "raunchyness" in a good way anymore. The dancers will masturbate on stage, but I really had no desire to even see any of them naked.

In about a week I am going to be near enough Erie to visit Partner's Tavern. I'll e-mail you my review if you can't read them presently.

AN, a word of caution about Partners. It's a very unusual and popular place. There's no bar or anything, just a bunch of seats around a dancing area in the middle of the floor. And it's BYOB, guys bring in coolers. The girls all sit at the rail with regular customers when they're not dancing, they don't dirculate. So you have no chance to either sit with a girl or talk to her. The only way an outsider can hook up with a girl is to go to the dj and reserve a dance with a specific girl, then sit and wait for her to get to you, and you have no idea how long you might have to wait. There are two private dance areas, one for individual dances, the other for the private booths that as I recall rent by the half hour or something like that. Take a girl for a single dance first, then you can follow up with the private booths if you like the girl. I know this all sounds very annoying and it is, but if you are patient enough to find the right girl the aggravation will be well worth it. The night I was there the girls were quite attractive and very very friendly. Very - LDs are done in the nude and 2-way touching is virtually unlimited. Which is no doubt why the place is so popular. Finding the place is also a bit of a problem, it's easy to find but you'll think you're in the wrong part of town because it's in an upscale residential neighborhood in a relatively new commercial building - you'll think you've gone too far out of town. It's been a while since I've been there so it may have changed. Enjoy.