Where / how do they learn their trade?!!!

DougS, the first thing you need to realize is that the girls who post on that other site are a very small select group who are not typical of strippers in general. If you read their posts you'll discover that most of them work in very upscale clubs and have been at it a long time. Many of them are career strippers and many of them despise men. Many of the girls we're likely to meet in the smaller downscale clubs that we all seem to prefer aren't like that for the most part.

But having said that, the one thing they all have in common is that this is their job, they're doing it to make money. And it makes no difference whether they like you or not, it's mostly about money. Never forget that. Some of them become con artists but thankfully the majority do not. But even the more honest ones will put on an act for you, they assume that's why you're there, that you know it's a game and that you understand how the game is played.

So where do the new girls learn? They learn from each other, they see what works and do more of it.

Doug: I think we make it easy for them. The best con games are only made possible by a willing victim, aka sucker. With an audience like that, they can look like brilliant actresses without even trying. Indeed, many of them really aren't trying to lead us on.

Great topic and I've noticed it more an issue with the strippers with college degrees or a better than average people skills, who can quickly learn to perceive the needs of a customer. The second factor would be a patron seeking more of a GFE type experience with a dancer, particularly one where the patron starts focusing on one dancer over time, the AFT deal etc. In theory the patron should understand that the girl is playing exactly the role the customer wants even though the customer may have never explicitly stated what that role should be, and with the GFE type deal the boundaries between fantasy and reality can be very very close. The most sophisticated technique (I believe) I've encountered is somehow (either through DJ collusion or not) a certain song containing the words "I love you" (3 words streched over 4 seconds) is played. The dancer who during the extended session dance (with her relatively new and monetarily promising client) happens to be singing along with various tunes, certain parts of songs etc - when the "I Love you" part (in several places in the song) comes up - she's looks the patron in the eye and sings the words to the customer or says it in his ear. Then later she can deny she remembers singing anything unsual when the patron questions her about a certain song. However, the dancer has successfully planted in the customers's mind that there is some element of reciprocity or mutuality - between her and the client in terms of the attraction and so forth. Anyone happen to know that precise song that's used for that? Its a bit hard to find apparently.

Yes, it's terrible how dancers take advantage of the customers. Almost always charging for every single little thing, pretending this, pretending that. Then if a dancer stops pretending and starts doing things for free, you're really in trouble because she really wants you. I actually seem to prefer dancers who tell me like it is rather than lie about a fantasy world if they feel a need to reveal personal information. Dancers learn fast because they are lying to guys every single day they are working and they can make more money by lying a lot of time.

Some dancers are so used to lying they can't even tell that you didn't just fall off the turnip truck and realize she's lying through her teeth pretending to be interested in going out or staying in touch. Maybe I should occasionally surprise a dancer like that and say "I don't think your boyfriend would appreciate you going out with me." That would probably cause a slight surprise reaction. Then you could pretend to have already met her boyfriend if you want information.

I believe that these dancers, that have been at it for a while, have probably learned from an early age how to "play" a guy and get their way. It is a skill that has sustained them up to this point, especially if they are young and relatively good looking. The sad truth is that, unless they have other marketable skills, once the youth and good looks are gone, they will be waiting tables or racking clothes at Wal-mart some day.

Now I as a dancer, I choose not to play people, and have customers, for that reason.. I am so tired of watching girls lie, and or con/play, whatever you want to call it..I know I have somewhere in that past commented that this is one of the biggest pet peeve's I have about this job.. I love dancing, I love to be someone's fantasy, I love to turn someone on, or if they just want company, to put a smile on their face..I do not want to lead them on to think that anything but me doing my job is going on.. I don't ask to be tipped for any and every little thing, if we dance please just paid what is owed, and please don't bitch that I don't drink alcohol, so if you by me a drink it will be bottled water or coffee.. So where other girls have learned the trade of playing people, I have gone to thee other end completely and pride myself very much in being an honest stripper.. David9999, I have to say music is so powerful, I would never think to use a song in that way, but certain customers, get certain songs played for them when I am on stage because that is what they want to enjoy.. I dance to Blues, and metal, so its one extreme or thee other..

This all gets back to the discussion we've had before on honesty. Does anyone here really want a dancer to tell us what she thinks of us? We're paying her to get naked and rub herself all over us, and some of us are 30-40 years older than she is. What do you think she's going to think of us? Personally I want her to pretend she's interested in me, that she enjoys my company, that's what I'm paying for, that's why I'm there. And to me that's no more dishonest than an actor on stage playing his role.

FONDL, I didn't say I would tell some of them what I think of them, I just won't lie or play games on what they can get... Will I "stroke" an ego, or feed into a fantasy for someone, sure, I play the game of fantasy, just not the head games of anything else... Your right, it is acting, and that part of it, is the job... I hate the, I need money game, feel sorry for me Cause this, and the sure I'll see you OTC to get money games....

I took the question to be about the central con we all buy into that strippers "actually like us", not necessarily evil schemes to defraud customers. If some guys aren't able to leave the fantasy behind at the club, I don't think strippers deserve all the credit or blame. But seeing how gullible some customers are, it must be very tempting for strippers to take the game beyond fantasy to outright fraud. I don't think it takes a great deal of talent or training.

Evilcyn, my comments weren't directed at you. It sounds to me like you have your game just about right. The point I was trying to make is pretty much the same as Chandler's, I don't think strippers deserve all the blame when guys feel like they've been taken. Guys need to understand the rules if they're going to play.

I don't blame the girls one bit, nor am I bothered by "the game". I only asked the question because I truly would like to know how they learn their "acting skills' and persuasion techniques, and all that goes into making them look and act seductively.

I know if the roles were reversed, I would not be able to warm up to women that I had no desire for. I would not be able to convince them that I was hot for them. I could not keep the conversation rolling along with someone that I could careless to talk to.

Just acting seductively must take some practice. Maybe it just comes naturally to them. Maybe they practice in front of a mirror. Take my ATF for instance (err... not literally). She just oozes sexuality, without seemingly trying. She has all of the facial expressions down to a science; a slight lift of an eyebrow, a tilt of her head with a flip of her hair, a sexy "I want you to fuck me now" smile. Can that just come naturally?

Of course the cons (at which I don't think my ATF excels, 'cause I don't think she's like that) and the lines that make you keep forking out the money. Do you suppose they sit in the dressing room comparing notes on what lines work in which situation?

Sorry for jumping on the high horse. I misunderstood it at first, and went on a tirade, because it is a sore topic with me, so anyway, as for sexuallity, I think to some of us just have it.. I am known for my "cum fuck me eyes" that I can give anytime, some women just get it, and enjoy using it.. I have other dancers that come to tip at the stage, and ask me, "how do you look at me like that... " I have a few girls I can make squirm in their seat when I give them thee eyes..Making another stripper squirm like that is a nice feeling.. Like me I think for some its just part of who they are..Others learn it over time, from watching others, and the desire to make money..

DougS asks: "Do you suppose they sit in the dressing room comparing notes on what lines work in which situation?" Not sure about the dressing room, however since the business is very competitive and has a zero-sum nature to it, I believe most girls keep what works to themselves, maybe making a general comment but nothing very precise, lest they lose out to another girl. Now one exception is where the girls have some kind of built-in group interest and take their jobs very seriously, e.g Brazilian girls, usually with limited english skills, and might (among other things) in fact be sharing the same house or apartment. Since most moderately upscale clubs have to maintain a near constant (high inventory) of girls even during off-hours, you will often see groups of girls sitting together idle just waiting for customers, and with Brazilians (to cite one example) they are no doubt working strategy, and you will sometimes notice them giving pointers to each other, all of course in Brazilian Portuguese. Most of these girls arrive out of grinding poverty - they're not likely wasting time talking about the nails. They also know what guys are dumping money, and will share that with their friends. So if you happen to spend 500 or 1000 on a girl one day, their friends seem to quickly acquire this information. I even saw 2 Brazilian girls intertwined together sitting in a back bench/couch (while awaiting customers) and at first believed it was some kind of kinky thing - then later realized one was actually showing the other how to bring a dance in close - a regular training session going on, right in the open

Doug S.(RE- How do they do it??)- Think of Andrew Dice Clay, where he asks fella about his date: "Is she good in bed"? Fella nods yes a couple of times, Dice shoots back "How do you think she got to be that way"?

I think we're talking about two different things here: (1) how do girls learn how to be sexy, and (2) how do they learn to be strippers. The first comes from society as a whole - eg. you can't watch TV or a movie for very long without seeing some girl acting sexy, it's everywhere and girls learn to copy it at an early age.

The second they learn from talking with and observing the other girls at work and seeing what's effective. There's a little bit of con artist in everyone, we all learned how to be manipulative as babies, the question is how far are they willing to go with it to earn a buck, and that's an individual decision, they all drew that line at different places.

Each girl has her own unique style and I think they're almost always better off to go with that rather than try to copy someone else. For example, my ATF is very much the tomboy and at first glance she isn't sexy at all. But she's very flirtatious and has a great smile, and the combination really works for her. But if someone else tried to copy her style it probably wouldn't work for them.

Evilcyn is completely honest in her statements on her threads of this topic.

I've been with her many many times in her club and she is very upfront and honest, and won't lie to you. Like she says, she provides the fantasies and builds the ego. Her dances are very seductive and alluring.

My opinion, 'most' dancers who lie or fabricate/stretch thruths, learn it from more experienced dancers. I have been in many clubs where 'new' dancers are being guided around my experienced ones, and they're probably telling the new dancers what to say, etc.

Maybe I'm with evilcyn on this being a bit of a pet peeve with me too. I don't like dancers lying to me and leading me on. I might be ok with just getting lap dances from them in a club. However I have had one dancer start giving me suggestions like "we should go out somewhere sometime". She gave me her phone number. Then after repeatedly telling me we should go out sometime several times on different nights I finally tried to arrange to meet up with her later on her off time. Then it became one excuse after another why she wasn't able to meet up. She even acted like such and such a date and place would be ok in the club. Time came and she didn't call to confirm. I can't stand it when someone keeps telling you they want to meet up but then when you try to meet up, excuse, excuse, excuse. Someone didn't tell her about 3 strikes and you're out apparently. I will still get dances from her if it suits me but I do not like someone to lead me on when they have no intention of following through especially when she intiated all the lead on without me asking. I don't know, maybe I got it all wrong and she just wants to have sex with me and nothing else. I doubt that though. I've met more than one dancer who will lead a guy on without him even suggesting he wants to meet her later. I think some dancers feel that is necessary to keep a guy to keep getting dances from her. Maybe those dancers suffer a lack of self esteem. I have gotten dances from married dancers and had no intention of ever meeting them later. Fake lead ons are turn offs. Sorry, I guess it's a pet peeve of mine too that I didn't even realize it was.

Somehow though, if I'm not attracted to a dancer and she talks about how much she likes me or likes something about me, I tend to believe she probably does like me and start thinking, oh no. I can't get away from her.

I saw cut throat dancer activity on Thursday night. Kind of enjoyed it a bit though. Not too many guys in a big club for the number of dancers. I was sitting at the stage. I had dancers walking around cutting off the dancers on stage. The dancers walking around wanted to get a dance. The dancers on stage wanted a tip. A number of dancers were blocking and cutting off other dancers. I guess I was the new meat in the club. Several times while sitting at the stage, I was going to tip a dancer but another dancer would sit or stand next to me or sit on or near my lap before one of the girls on stage got to me. I enjoyed that a bit but there were a couple of dancers on stage I would have liked to watch and tip. I'm sure it was all about the money and I wouldn't be surprised if one or two dancers played payback time by blocking me off when she tried to get a stage tip. I don't know, it all became a blur of dancers coming at me.

As soon as one dancer realized I wasn't going to get a dance from her, she ignored me. Funny thing though, the last time she asked me I'm not sure what she heard but I started to say "ummm" and she got disgusted and walked off. I was simply going to ask a question before I got a dance from her. She had asked me probably anywhere from 5 to 12 times in two nights. I guess she thought she heard noooo or naaaa instead of uummmm. Then she appeared to look a bit mad at me. Oh well, the dancers are competing for the money you spend in a club and some will go to different lengths to get that money.

I'm sorry in advance if this sounds attacking because nobody deserves to be attacked but this thread has a slight mysogynistic overtone to it. Many people believe that SC regulars are sexually immature woman-haters who can't cope with reality and maybe this is part of what contributes to it. I have 2 ATF's, and neither one has deceived or defrauded me in any way. Neither one has my phone #. If I want to see them I have to go to their place of business on one of their scheduled shifts. If I want a real date, in real life, I can ask out a chubby, 40-year old woman, my physical equivalent. When my ATF smiles at me, gives me a hug, tells me its great to see me, gives me a great dance, I can't imagine being so rude as to ask her how she got to be such a great actress. If I wanted reality I wouldn't be in the SC. Now, if you think a particular stripper is being a total biatch, blocking other strippers, just politely say, I'd like to be alone right now, or, I'm here to see my favorite dancer, I won't be getting any dances from you tonight. And be done with it. Or if you think a girl is being phony by asking for your #, just decline taking it. But I think it's wrong for men to go into the club and judge these girls. Some of them are messed up in ways you can't imagine. Avoid the bad ones, find the good ones. But don't judge them for playing on their sexuality. My #1 ATF has told me that's the whole fun of the job, to wear heels and a costume and bat her eyelashes and toss her hair...they're strippers!

oh....and i'm curious...what other site?

Anglefly, I assumed DougS was referring to stripperweb.com aka the pink site (there's also a blue section for guys.) It's kinda amusing to read once in awhile but don't bother disagreeing with any of the outrageous comments that you read, it's a very politically correct site - which is what makes it amusing.

Bones, I have to disagree with you a little that dancers learn how to be dishonest from more experienced dancers. My guess is that the really dishonest ones have been that way all their lives, they earned it from their families at an early age and are no different outside the club than they are inside, they're just not very nice people.

Putting women on a pedestal sounds great in theory, however in practical terms, in regards to the raw chemistry of relationships, I've found a very high percentage of women seem to crave a bit of disrespect from men. Any single guy that doesn't figure this out by age 25 is going to be in for a big surprise

my atf told me about that site, said she used to look at it before starting dancing, she didn't mention money making tips, just to get an idea if dancing was for her. LOL says she hasn't been on the site since started dancing. Says it's full of girls whining and complaining about every last little thing that happened the night before....saying every other girl at their club is a drunk and a skank except them and their little clique....vowing that the "industry" as a whole is going downhill....typical stripper nonsense. She actually does funny impersonations of long rambling stripper posts, she's funny. All my girl has to do to get my $ is be really hot and really sweet. Also I agree with Fondl, a lot of these girls grow up in homes with a single mom who's always one step ahead of the bill collector, so they learn petty little hustles and scams. it's not just customers they do it to. And I don't think it has anything to do with being a dancer, some people are JERKS. But I think this thread relates to something else, which is men who get attached to a stripper in the hopes that she really likes him and a relationship will develop in the future. Well, you have to be a willing believer to allow that "con" to work on you. Believe me, they're not that good of actresses, you are a willing participant, you got smoke in your eyes. I'm sure my atf is quite fond of me, don't get me wrong, but I don't think she thinks of me for one second once I'm out of her sight. And I hope one day she marries a handsome man her own age, b/c she's a great gal. It's called reality. It's like saying gee that Jimmy Swaggart must have been a great evangelist to get all those people to send in all those tens of millions of dollars. He wasn't all that. Those people just needed to believe what he told them. Lots more people would have changed the channel. Hope any of that makes sense.

That's what I said (last paragraph), in so many words.

A couple of years back, I visited the pink site. I posted a reply to a discussion and made myself very unpopular. I have not been back since. They have their site and we have ours.

Very interesting posts on that Pink site. Note that they freely admit within-club most of these girls will not help other girls with their "hustle", too much risk for them losing dollars. Also note how many cannot take the rejection. On the other side of the equation a large issue and very bothersome and constant issue is how best to handle patrons asking them out, sometimes after one dance -and how to deflect these customers ongoing (and admittedly idiotic) attempts to date them. On working the "hustle" I like the post that says her best technique: sit down with the guy for 2 songs - then say "ready"? She says it works most times and gets dances

FONDL - You may disagree with me which is fine. Maybe MOST dancers learn this from their upbringing at home, I will totally agree.

But, I've seen my share of new dancers, who most have seem to have been guided by experienced dancers, not only in dancing ability, but in talking (lies) to customers also.

When I see a new dancer in a club, I sit and talk with her and find out a little about her. If I can determine beforehand that she might go 'beyond' club expectations in her dancing skills, I'll take a chance and buy one or two dances from her. This all stems from "challenge and achievement" on my behalf. Kind of like, "can I break you in on 'extras'?" Just part of my pervertedness.

Angelfly, the thing that really makes me gag about the pink site is the gusy who keep telling all the girls how wonderful they are. I can handle the girls complaining all the time but some of the guys are too much. My experience has been similar to Shadowcat's, most of the regulars who post there don't want to hear any idssenting views which makes for very boring discussion.

Bones, the point I was trying to make is that a person's basic morality doesn't suddenly change by being put in a different environment. If a girl is basically an honest person, she isn't going to change because she gets a job stripping. The opposite is also true.

AngelFly: The "other SC website" to which I was referring is STRIPCLUBLIST.COM. It can be fairly entertaining and depending on what you are looking for, can be mildly helpful. Of course TUSCL is THE source and is loaded with information and knowledge.

I didn't take your post as being an attack, at all. I am not the least bit misogynistic, though. I am definitely skeptical when it comes to the sincerity of most dancers, though, and keep a keen eye out for scamming. Like I said, I do not blame them... it is their job, and it determines how successful they will be.

Having said that, I don't believe that I've ever been scammed or conned, however, like the theme that keeps repeating on this board implies... how can we ever be sure? I have never caught any of "my girls" in any lies, and believe me I've tried to do so. Some of the stories that my prev-ATF told me were on the far fetched side, and some resulted in a request for money. Bail money, in one case (I guess I should add that to the "Gifts" discussion thread). However, everything added up and pointed to being true.

I guess what I'm rambling on about is that we are bombarded with news articles and web postings describing how PLs have been taken advantage of, so naturally you have to approach the dancers with open eyes - to be used for more than just oogling them. This skepticism causes me to look at everything that goes down (err, no pun intended), analyzing and scrutinizing and otherwise judging whether it's grifting or just another day in the life of a girl forced into dancing for the need of money.

The thing that really sucks about all of this is I THINK my ATF is a very special girl. We seem to have a lot in common and have a great time together (OTC), and I believe there could be something there between her and I, however my skeptic eye keeps hanging in there, trying to find discrepancies in stories, and cultivating doubts in what she professes to be feelings.

Fondl says "If a girl is basically an honest person, she isn't going to change because she gets a job stripping." One exception is large amounts of cash. For one otherwise very honest nice-girl educated type dancer, who I was typically spending approx 1000 a week on for several months, when I happened to drop 2700 on her one week -the lies started coming which apparently was part of her attempt to ratchet up the situation, but ultimately undid the "relationship" (or whatever one might call it between a dancer and patron)

Bones has the right idea. When dealing with dancers, patrons are not helpless and can employ various strategies too. Its part of the challenge.

A year or so ago I got to break a new dancer in at my favorite club. It was her first night working at the club and I was her first customer. She was a Filipina. Early 20's. Cute and about 10 lbs overweight. A "7" in my book. We talked for awhile and then she hit me up for a dance. I asked "Will you do 2 for $20?" She said "Yes". I asked "Are you going to let me touch you anywhere?" She said "Yes." I asked "Are you going to touch me everywhere?" She answered "Yes" again. Off we went to the couch room. Everything went as she agreed to. By the 3rd song she had my dick outside my pants and was jerking me off. Btw we were alone. They were having an amature contest on stage. I blew my load.

The following month, I ran into her again. But things were different now. The other Fillipina dancers had gotten to her and undid all my training. She wouldn't do 2 for $20 and wouldn't go as far as she did the last time. All my hard work right down the drain. I saw her again last month. She came over and sat with me but I just ignored her. She finally got up and left. I got better fish to fry...

I have 4 sisters and I don't usually put women up on a pedestal. I'm also still at the same age of some of the older strippers working. I think a few are even older than me. I just wanted to clarify since it would not look strange if I was dating a girl in her late 20's or early 30's. I've had many experiences with strippers most of which I didn't feel comfortable posting in a public place. Many do try scams and rip offs. I even had one pick my pocket but after talking to the manager of the club, she was fired and I got my money back. Not all at one time but after I informed the manager and we talked later. Most dancers have been very nice to me. However if you have a fun night with 25 dancers being nice to you but the 26th dancer lies to you and scams you, you may leave the club unhappy and upset. I thought having 4 sisters qualifies as knowing something. I'm just clarifying where I'm coming from.

I only go to stripclubs to have a little bit of entertaining fun. Most dancers in my experiences haven't played games with me except for the little ones that involve trying to get dances. In my experiences, if a dancer told me she wanted to meet me later away from the club, she was telling me the truth. Maybe that's hard for some people to believe, however I found long ago that telling the truth was often the best way to make some people think you are lying.

Of course strippers will tell lies to get dances, I think everyone realizes that, I think the larger issue is how far the lies or deceptions will go to convert a random customer into a regular customer -that's when the lies can go from (arguably) white lies to major lies. I seen some cra.p going on up here in the northeast USA that I am not even comfortable with posting in terms of how far some of these girls are going, and I'm assuming its partly related to more girls fighting over less dollars - and the next few months - in terms of the economy and its effect on super-discretionary spending like strip clubs - will tell us whether the summer slowness was just typical seasonal or something worse.

David, you probably weren't here then but in the past we've discussed at great length trends in the strip club industry. Some of us (like me) think that the number of strippers (and clubs) is growing much faster than the number of customers, which results in a steady decline in individual stripper incomes. I believe this has been going on for a long time. And it makes a lot of strippers more desparate (and more willing to do extras.)

I personally think this accounts for the "economic decline" that so many strippers claim to see. I've been hearing that complaint for many years. And as I'm sure you know there hasn't been a national recession in a very long time, although some regions, particularly parts of the Northeast, have done poorly at times. Just curious, where are you from?