Comments by chitownlawyer (page 7)

Comments on previous threads have indicated a consensus that DFK is the "holy grail", the last and least attainable of physical incursions that a customer may make on a dancer. I have in fact gone DATY on several dancers who would not let me kiss them (on the facial lips). I enjoy DFK, and have never turned it down when offered. One of my favorite s.c. memories involve an hour long make out session with an Indy dancer that Chandler introduced me to (first headstands, then DFK..what an hour!!!). Older dancers seem more receptive than younger, and a younger dancer once told me that she saved DFK for her boyfriend...that, apparently, alone among her favors. I thought that was such a funny statement to make under the circumstances that I laughed so hard, I almost knocked the headboard off of the hotel wall!!!

njscfan, you and I have many of the same operating tactics. For example, when I go somewhere innocent during the evenings, I make a point of taking one or more of the children, which gives the impression, even when I am alone, that I am going somewhere that I could/would take the kids.

My wife is actually fairly oblivious, to the point that I sometimes wonder if she really suspects, but figures it's not something that she cares about or wants to know about, so she just "looks the other way." Accounting for time is not a problem, as I am self-employed in a job that can be very demanding in that respect, and can legitimately have me working any time, day or night. I sometimes really do go to the office from 10:00pm. to 2:00 am., just because I can be so much more efficient then...no phone calls, few e-mails, etc. Accouning for money is not a problem, as my wife has no interest in keeping track of our money, as long as the ATM card works (She's not a mercenary bitch...she has a good job, and she and I trade off about every year as to who is making more money--we both have professional practices, so our incomes vary from year to year. She also spends very little money). She gives me her paycheck in the sealed envelope that in comes in from the accounting office at her workplace. So she sure the hell is not going to be opening credit card bills or bank statements. So, the only way I can get in trouble is a really stupid mistake on my part (the condom wrapper in my shirt pocket, for example), or some unforeseeable and unpreventable bad luck (having a heart attack in a club, for example, or getting in a car accident on a strip club lot). Last summer, we were on vacation. I don't carry a wallet, instead have the bare necessities of identification (driver's license, insurance card, debit card) in a money clip in my top pocket. For reasons too complex to go into, I also had my "industry card" (free entry, 24/7, to any club in a national chain...comp from the manager). Wifey got up before I did and, in looking for a keycard, looked through that stack of cards. When I awakened, she was in the hotel dining at the complimentary b'fast buffet (thus, her concern for the keycard), and the remaining cards were in a stack on the dresser. To this day, I don't know if she noticed the strip club pass, or appreciated its significance. My wife is an extremely intelligent woman (maybe the smartest woman I've personally known), but also has an extremely focused way of thinking. The way her brain works, she probably just discarded anything that didn't look like a keycard, and didn't worry about what anything else might be (Like sculpting an elephant by carving away anything that doesn't look like an elephant.) In any event, she never said anything about the pass.

Will you marry me?

How about condom wrappers? One dancer tucked the wrapper into my shirt pocket during an afternoon encounter. I was in my bedroom that evening getting undressed when I found it. A score of years practicing law has given me the ability to explain away a lot of atrocious, indefensible stuff...but I have no idea how I would have dealt with that, if, for example, at the dinner table, my lovely, inquisitive daughter had checked out the bright purple wrapper in my breast pocket.

When I first saw this topic, I thought of "conversate". A couple of weeks ago I was at my usual club, and a cute waitress with whom I talk shit a lot tried to get me to buy an hour of her time for $350.00 an hour, based on buying a bottle of champagne. This is a new thing at this club, and does not involve any private time-it is, in my opinion, a shrine to PL-dom. In any event, when I asked her why I should spend $350.00 for a bottle of Moet that retails at $40.00, she said, well, we could sit and _converate_." I had never heard that before. On the other hand, about a year ago in court, I heard a young lawyer say "allegate" when he meant "allege", so maybe the level of formal education isn't determinative in all cases...

Actually, I think the appropriate procedural step is a Motion to Dismiss--the dancer--wtih Prejudice.

Chandler, I learned that the hard way. You're absolutely right.

"if the first dance does not involve some substantial contact with my dick (albeit still in my pants), there will be no subsequent dances." Would using their knee against your groin qualify as substantial? " Yes, even the dreaded knee against the peter counts. My experience is tha girls who will, early on, make some contact with the dick will escalate that contact on subsequent dances. However, I have also found that girls who will not touch the dick with any part of their body on the first dance will not breach that gap on subsequent dances. For some reason, I have always found rubbing their head against your crotch--the infamous "skull blow job"--to be particularly offensive, and that _does not_ count as "substantal contact". I think I find that maneuver particularly offensive because it is two removes from anything real...the first remove being contact between the dancer's mouth and your covered package, to mimic a blow job...and the second remove being contact between her head and your package, to mimic contact between her mouth and your clothed package. It is a bad imitation of something that, in itself, is a bad imitation of something good (a real blow job), and that really pisses me off.

One time I called a dancer who had given me her 'phone number, and did the blocked number thing. She ripped me a new asshole over it. I just use my cellphone, unblocked, although I changed the voicemail message to omit my name. For a while I used a "Boost" pay-by-the-minute phone for my erotic adventures, but it got to be too much trouble to keep track of two phones, remember to keep them both charged (I'm a cell phone retard), keep loading minutes into the phone, etc.

Shadow: I'll happily take your comment in the spirit in which it was intended, but I do feel the need to point out that I don't dress up to impress strippers-I just generally tend to dress well, mostly for professional reasons. Generally, "business casual (khakis, an oxford or polo shirt, topsiders and a sports jacket) in about the most casual that I dress. I haven't owned a pair of jeans since I was an undergraduate. I do have "grubby" clothes that I wear to clean out the gutters, but there is a hole in my wardrobe from "business casual" to "grubby" that I am not inclined to fill, just as a matter of personal taste. I don't dispute that it probably does send disadvantageous signals to dancers when patrons wear expensive clothes, esp. in the current buyer's market. But just as I am not going to let dancers influence me to dress "up", I'm not going to let them influence me to dress "down."

Not in the way you might think. For one of them, my client had an emergency, and had to leave the Courthouse right after the jury went out to deliberate. When the verdict came in, I called him with the message, "Justice has prevailed." Mr. Client then sent back the following text message: "Appeal immediately."

Bobby1 is exactly right. To use HarryDave's taxonomy, most dancers are dick avoiding. They justify that orientation by telling themselves lies along the lines of Bobby1's analysis: that guys like having pretty young girl's sitting on their laps, being teased, etc. The reality, or at least "my" reality, is that I like high contact dances--or, to follow HarryDave's outline, "dick-centric" dances. When you think about it, all our social training is in the direction of the "dick avoiding" category, and it makes sense that most women, even strippers, would be inclined in that way. Unfortunately, that gets them little of my money. As I have told several of you privately, and perhaps said on this board, if the first dance does not involve some substantial contact with my dick (albeit still in my pants), there will be no subsequent dances. At clubs where there is some discount for multiple dances, I am frequently asked, at the beginning of the session, how many dances I am getting. I always respond by saying, "I'll have to see have the first one." That seems to work to get me the kind of dances I like. Unfortunately, a lot of dancers think being young and hot is enough. However, to quote the dancer I most frequently patronize: "These young girls think they will make a lot of money because they are cute. Cute don't mean shit. The main thing the guy wants to know is, what are you going to do for his dick." I could not have said it better myself.

"Number of dancer hours"...another example of how to mislead with statistics...very innovative though. " "the trouble with statistics is they can be swayed any way to sell your point." Thank goodness that twenty-one years of trying jury cases hasn't been wasted!!!!

I know that some dancers do work a circuit, like migrant farm labor. But I sometimes wonder if some dancers lie about doing that to make themselves seem more desirable. I once had a dancer in a nasty, hole-in-the-wall club in ESL tell me that she would travel to Dallas to work at Baby Dolls, and to Houston to work at Treasures. There was just such a disconnect between where I saw her, and the other clubs that she claimed to work at,that I had to doubt her story. In terms of making enough money to justify it, I wouldn't think that would be a problem. If a dancer is traveling for a specific event, she can buy a cheap plane ticket on Southwest in advance. And there are certainly enough cheap motels, a la Red Roof Inn, Motel 6, etc., near most strip clubs that cheap lodging shouldn't be a problem--although the event that draws the customers might draw so many other people that getting cheap digs becomes a problem. Over the years, I have represented various hotel franchisees who have told me about girls who come to the St. Louis area each weekend to dance, and have "standing reservations" each weekend. For some reason, a lot of girls seem to come from Milwaukee to dance in St. Louis...or so I've been told.

MG: Women at Macy's take "off their clothes in a place"--the changing rooms. Is Macy's a strip club? Actually, not to be a smart ass, because your post does raise an interesting issue: what defines a strip club? In the local club I frequent in the St. Louis area, there are generally about 20 girls, working 8 hour shifts. They run three stages in the evening. So, over an eight hour shift, you have 160 dancer hours worked (20 dancers x 8 hours), and 24 stripping hours (3 dancers stripping hours x the number of hours in the shift). Therefore, of the total time that all the dancers spend in the club, 24/160, or approximately 14% of all dancer time in the club is spent stripping. When I have been to Adelita's, there have been about 60 girls in the club, and they also work 8 hour shifts, for a total of 240 dancer hours. I have never seen more than oe girl dance at a time, and never for more than about a third of the time I was there (About three hours each time). Let's assume that my experience is wildly unrepresentative, and a single girl is dancing for half of a shift. In that case, total dancing time per shift would be 1(dancer actually stripping) x 4 (hours per shift when someone is taking her clothes off), for a total ratio of stripping time per shift of 4/240, or approximately 0.18%. Now, I obviously believe that a club where 14% of total dancer time is spent with girls taking their clothes off (or being essentially naked) IS a strip club, and a club in which only 0.18% of total dancer time is so occupied IS NOT a strip club. However, I don't know where you draw the lines inside that range. Like Justice Potter Stewart said of pornography, I can't define what makes a strip club--but I know it when I see it. By the way, if Adelita's were truly a strip club, where the most of the girls were unclothed most of the time, it would make a BIG difference as to who I would take upstairs. As we know from our experiences with civilians, clothes can cover a lot. In particular, Mexican gynecologists use c-section techniques apparently not seen since the time of... well, Caesar.

But what a whorehouse....

Dancers in Indy is actually more of a "gentlemen's club." It seems to hire the most beautiful girls of any club in Indy...based on what I have seen, and what I have heard from dancers at other clubs. They have opened some high-cost "private VIP room", but I have not been there since that innovation. I have been to that club several times, and always rated it in the 7-9 category. The mark-down from 10 is due to the lack of extras, which I have never heard of as available at that club. I would not consider it a top 10 club, or even a top 40 club. Every metropolitan area of any size has a comparable club, and cities like Houston and Dallas have several. I would compare it to the Mens' Club in Dallas, or Colorado in Houston. I guess you, as a northamericano, can sit in Adelita's for a protracted period of time without going upstairs with a puta--but you will sit there alone, after the first couple of girls to stop by your table have told their colleagues that you are not up for going to a "hroom". In fact, I would go so far as to say that the club is really two different clubs, based on the clientele. The Mexicanos do seem to go there just to hang out. In neither of my two visits to that club have I seen a Mexicano in the hallways of the hotel that services Adelita's (other than as staff, of course), or going up the stairs thereto. On the other hand, the gringos, like myself, do seem to be there for sex. There are better bars nearby if one wants to hang out and dance with local girls. The other way that the girls at Adelita's extract money from you, besides turning tricks, is by getting you to help them fulfull their quota of overpriced drinks that they have to sell each shift (usually 20 per shift at 7$US.) So, unless you know the girls well (in a way that you only can if you go to Tijuana regularly), in any given period of time, you are going to be giving girls money in two ways--fucking them upstairs, or buying them drinks. I don't think that they are going to stay with you for any significant period of time if you aren't doing one or the other. And at the rate that some of those girls can chug, the burn rate is about the same. So, given the choice between watching the girl chug beer, or fucking her, I will choose the latter, or find a different girl. I stand by my prior objection: given that the emphasis on guys with roughly my melanin count is to get us upstairs with a puta, I consider the place a whorehouse, not a stripclub.

"You smell Gooood"="I love the smell of cash on a customer." It's a line. Whenever I am in a strip club, I always feel grateful to the guy I get my suits, etc., from, because every suit, tie, shirt, set of cufflinks, shoes, always looks great to the strippers--the strippers tell me so all the time.

She better stop using my name, which is a registered trademark of Chitown Enterprises, Inc. Perhaps I need to get a cease and desist order.

In this discussion of the relative merits of sc's v. escorts, I have to bring up the issue of LE involvement. LE is much less of a factor with sc's because, ostensibly, the activities said to be found at a SC are legal. Escort services are, by their nature, illegal (NO ONE, including people you find on juries, believes that men pay beautiful women half the mens' ages just to hang out with them, or that "any compensation is for time only, and not for sexual acts." Sorry.). I have never heard of a patron being arrested for extras in a strip club (I have sometimes heard of the dancer being arrested). The worst that I think will, realistically, happen to a patron who gets caught with his unit under a dancer's thong is that he will be kicked out of the club, and quite possibly banned for a period of time, maybe indefinitely. On the other hand, I have often heard of men getting arrested, charged, convicted and sentenced for acts having to do with procuring the services of a prostitute (escort). Even escorts who operate out of hotels tend to get busted when they set up for a long period of time ( a week or longer) in the same hotel, and LE gets a chance to draw a bead on them. Granted, the frequency of action is less predictable at a strip club. But I have never heard of a man having to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life due to activities that happened at a strip club...but that can very well happen as a result of a solicitation conviction.

If I was in San Diego, I would never go to the local strip clubs...not with the Tijuana border only 10 miles away. Much more mileage for much less money. Ay caramba!!!

Hello, Bobbyl

I am generally a conservative, probably a libertarian. I do have a soft spot in my heart for kids, so abortion is a problem for me. I do support fairly aggressive zoning of all socially disruptive behavior--sexually oriented businesses, liquor licenses, etc. In other words, I really don't mind people getting the entertainment they like, but I don't object to them having to travel a little bit for it, in order to ensure that people who don't want to partake aren't exposed to it. So--have strip clubs, but keep them out by the airport.

OTC is the practice that best exemplifies a dancer's understanding of economics, in my opinion. The dancer gets all of it, no tip out, and the customer pays for the room. A thing of beauty.