WHAT is going on with the "Top Ten"?

Forgot. No copy and pasting from MS Word.

Ack! Okay, I must've clicked on the wrong club: Dancer's doesn't seem to be a dive at all. But it does seem to be near BBF, which I thought was the most popular in the area.

MIDancer raises some interesting points, and remember that FOUNDER has a standard disclaimer -- everything you read on this site should be regarded as FICTION. We know that isn't strictly true but it is good to keep in mind there is a lot of BS posted. I don't know how many of the HOT LAP DANCE postings are fake to boost the ratings but anybody who scrolls through the reviews can reasonably surmise that a lot of DIFFERENT people who review DIFFERENT clubs have rated it high. Still it does seem odd. All I can say is that I hope people we know and trust like FONDL, Bones, Shadowcat, etc., find an excuse to go to Manhattan and spring for the stiff admission fee and then give it tous straight. The reputation of the reviewer is very important when the review is exceptional. THAT BRINGS ME TO ADELITA. I have never been there but I've been to several places that operate by the same rules. To me it is totally legit to rate it as a strip club. The limited experiences I had with true brothels was that the emphasis was on finding the girl and getting into the locked room. That is NOT the case and that is why it is just fine to be listed. After all, a guy can go to Adelitas and have a good time - chat with pretty, scantilly dressed girls; swig a few beers, just hang out. You are not FORCED to go upstairs. Be that is it may, there are plenty of brothels - look at Houston for example - the AMPs - that are listed on this site, but they get very VERY few high-point reviews so it never becomes visible. I say, congratulations and commendations to FOUNDER for keeping places like Adelitas, Lipstixx, etc. on this site. As long as my fellow mongers are interested in visiting these places and reviewing them I am interested in reading their opinions.

Okay, now that I've read through Dancer's reviews, I have to say that I'm surprised it's in the Top Ten due to its apparent LACK of mileage. Excuse my initial statement.

arbeeguy: I have no problem with founder listing these sorts of establishments, but it seems to me that it might be more appropriate if there were some sort of disclaimer, or perhaps an entirely seperate Top Ten list for these places.

Hey everyone, I'm going to the NY area at the end of the month, and would be happy to check out HLD for you! Just send your check or money order to the HarryDave HLD Fund, Phoenix AZ.

As for Adelita, I have been there. Most of the guys there do not partake of the upstairs activities. But the format is different from many US clubs, with very little stage dancing, and mostly girls circulating, socializing, "cuddling" and trying to find ways to extract $$ (or pesos). Come to think of it, this seems to be the pattern at Northern NJ bikini joints, too.

Also going to Tampa this month, and likely will partake of the ever reliable Mons Venus. This club will always be in my top ten no matter what the TUSCL ranking.

There's a fine line between brothel and strip club when you go international IMO. I don't have a problem with Adelitas based on what the reviews say. Honesty, the only club on there that I know much about is Sundowner. Weren't there a few from MA on the Top 10 a while back too?

That's an intertesting idea on financing a trip to see some of the Top 10 clubs...maybe we should have a contest and see who wins a free trip to one of them?

One important thing to remember is that the column that shows the number of reviews is actually the number of reviewers. A club with a small amount of reviewers can easily get knocked out of the top 10. It only takes one or 2 bad reviews and its rating drops. I believe that the only reason Hot Lap Dance is still in there is because the savy guys are not going to spend $50 to get in the door. Any time a guy gets laid in a club he is going to rate it a 10.That is why Adelitas is still in there. Mexican border towns are the worst when in comes to bordellos. Lots of ROBs etc. Any of you old enough to remember the Blue Fox or the Green Door in TJ? I believe that the Platinum Plus deserves its standing. When I first started going there 6+ years ago it was not even in the top 40.I have watched it grow in popularity and believe that it is being properly reviewed. Once in a while it gets a bad review and when it does I check out the reviewer and then post a comment about his review in my next one. As I did last month. I fly free and can visit any club that I want to. Anytime. But I have never read a review that has convinced me that I am going to have a better time and better prices than what I am receiving at my favorite club.I will be in the club Feb 14,15 and 16 if anyone wants to join me.

Dancers in Indy is actually more of a "gentlemen's club." It seems to hire the most beautiful girls of any club in Indy...based on what I have seen, and what I have heard from dancers at other clubs. They have opened some high-cost "private VIP room", but I have not been there since that innovation. I have been to that club several times, and always rated it in the 7-9 category. The mark-down from 10 is due to the lack of extras, which I have never heard of as available at that club. I would not consider it a top 10 club, or even a top 40 club. Every metropolitan area of any size has a comparable club, and cities like Houston and Dallas have several. I would compare it to the Mens' Club in Dallas, or Colorado in Houston.

I guess you, as a northamericano, can sit in Adelita's for a protracted period of time without going upstairs with a puta--but you will sit there alone, after the first couple of girls to stop by your table have told their colleagues that you are not up for going to a "hroom". In fact, I would go so far as to say that the club is really two different clubs, based on the clientele. The Mexicanos do seem to go there just to hang out. In neither of my two visits to that club have I seen a Mexicano in the hallways of the hotel that services Adelita's (other than as staff, of course), or going up the stairs thereto. On the other hand, the gringos, like myself, do seem to be there for sex. There are better bars nearby if one wants to hang out and dance with local girls.

The other way that the girls at Adelita's extract money from you, besides turning tricks, is by getting you to help them fulfull their quota of overpriced drinks that they have to sell each shift (usually 20 per shift at 7$US.) So, unless you know the girls well (in a way that you only can if you go to Tijuana regularly), in any given period of time, you are going to be giving girls money in two ways--fucking them upstairs, or buying them drinks. I don't think that they are going to stay with you for any significant period of time if you aren't doing one or the other. And at the rate that some of those girls can chug, the burn rate is about the same. So, given the choice between watching the girl chug beer, or fucking her, I will choose the latter, or find a different girl.

I stand by my prior objection: given that the emphasis on guys with roughly my melanin count is to get us upstairs with a puta, I consider the place a whorehouse, not a stripclub.

But what a whorehouse....

Sounds like you're pumping up the PP cat, which I'm sure a lot of people do for their favorite clubs. As far as I'm concerned, if there are girls dancing and/or taking off their clothes in a place...then it's a strip club...no matter what goes on upstairs/next door.

MG: Women at Macy's take "off their clothes in a place"--the changing rooms. Is Macy's a strip club?

Actually, not to be a smart ass, because your post does raise an interesting issue: what defines a strip club? In the local club I frequent in the St. Louis area, there are generally about 20 girls, working 8 hour shifts. They run three stages in the evening. So, over an eight hour shift, you have 160 dancer hours worked (20 dancers x 8 hours), and 24 stripping hours (3 dancers stripping hours x the number of hours in the shift). Therefore, of the total time that all the dancers spend in the club, 24/160, or approximately 14% of all dancer time in the club is spent stripping.

When I have been to Adelita's, there have been about 60 girls in the club, and they also work 8 hour shifts, for a total of 240 dancer hours. I have never seen more than oe girl dance at a time, and never for more than about a third of the time I was there (About three hours each time). Let's assume that my experience is wildly unrepresentative, and a single girl is dancing for half of a shift. In that case, total dancing time per shift would be 1(dancer actually stripping) x 4 (hours per shift when someone is taking her clothes off), for a total ratio of stripping time per shift of 4/240, or approximately 0.18%.

Now, I obviously believe that a club where 14% of total dancer time is spent with girls taking their clothes off (or being essentially naked) IS a strip club, and a club in which only 0.18% of total dancer time is so occupied IS NOT a strip club. However, I don't know where you draw the lines inside that range. Like Justice Potter Stewart said of pornography, I can't define what makes a strip club--but I know it when I see it.

By the way, if Adelita's were truly a strip club, where the most of the girls were unclothed most of the time, it would make a BIG difference as to who I would take upstairs. As we know from our experiences with civilians, clothes can cover a lot. In particular, Mexican gynecologists use c-section techniques apparently not seen since the time of... well, Caesar.

The top 10 list has always been a real mixture - some places are fancy expensive GCs, others are dives that feature high mileage LDs, still others are basically whore houses, etc. The only way the list will ever make any sense is if clubs are somehow broken down into several different types and a top 10 list is made for each type. As it is the list is pretty meaningless because every rater likes something different. I've been to some clubs that were on the list at the time and I thought they were terrible, but all that means is they weren't the kind of place that I like.

Chitown, I defer to your experience with Adelita. I went there once, and made the same calculation as you. Half way through my first beer, I decided I needed to go upstairs to get my money's worth. The rest of the beer was for deciding who with.

But back to Northern NJ bikini clubs, where the girls only flash their boobs, but the mileage can be astronomical. What are these? And what about some clubs in rural Quebec, where there is some naked dancing on stage, some socializing with guys who are melanin challenged, but the dance booths are primarily for extras?

A mixture, a melange, a fine kettle of fish. I must read more reviews and learn.

chitown...if you find a Macy's that allows other customers to watch the undressing...let me know. "Number of dancer hours"...another example of how to mislead with statistics...very innovative though. :) The clubs in Quebec were exactly what I was thinking of...at a lot of those FS clubs, the stage dancing is quite limited (even non-existant during the daylight hours). Those clubs are still strip clubs IMO.

chitown-the trouble with statistics is they can be swayed any way to sell your point. Bikini bars or places that do lingerie shows technically would not qualify as strip clubs, if they did than the public beaches would. Ultimately I think the term needs to apply to any establishment where the actual or suggested/simulated sexual acts are performed by entertainers for the exchange of money. It may also be simply defined as any place where your S.O. gets pissed at you for going to. For some this may include something as lame as Hooters restaurants.

I think there is a problem with breaking them down by type, which is that not all clubs can be neatly pigeonholed into a type. Granted, some are easy (Adelita's very clearly belongs in the whorehouse category, for example), but others are not. Even bikini bars have variety, as the four I know about are different. One has one-way contact, one has airdances, and the other two are essentially places where the only way the dancers make money is stage tips (and they both have the same owner).

You're absolutely right, DandyDan. But the alternative that we have now is worse IMO. How can anyone compare a huge glitzy expensive GC with a tiny inexpenxive neighborhood bar-type place? Your rating will reflect your preference for the two types of places, more than the places themselves. It's obvious that some people rate clubs based solely on the mileage available regardless of what else the club has or doesn't have. So why not at least separate clubs into two categories - high mileage and low mileage? Or maybe high degree of privacy, low privacy?

"Number of dancer hours"...another example of how to mislead with statistics...very innovative though. "

"the trouble with statistics is they can be swayed any way to sell your point."


Thank goodness that twenty-one years of trying jury cases hasn't been wasted!!!!

I think if we had 2 distict categories - true strip clubs and whorehouses - the latter being defined as any club where illegal sexual activities routinely take place, it would help a great deal with the ratings. I think we could agree with which clubs fit into which category. And think how much easier LE's job would be.

"Thank goodness that twenty-one years of trying jury cases hasn't been wasted!!!!"

I dunno...did you win all those cases? ;) You're insane BTW FONDL.

Not in the way you might think.

For one of them, my client had an emergency, and had to leave the Courthouse right after the jury went out to deliberate. When the verdict came in, I called him with the message, "Justice has prevailed." Mr. Client then sent back the following text message: "Appeal immediately."

lol