discussion comment
16 years ago
While I am probably one of the first people here to enjoy the spectator sport of watching shadowcat and parodyman trade their insults, I also find it rather pathetic that the name calling so quickly devolves into references to sexuality. (And, yes, parodyman is clearly using homosexuality as his main trope for insulting shadowcat.) Surely you folks have the maturity and wit to come up with a better insult than calling each other "faggot." Or is panic about sexuality still a male's most vulnerable spot?
discussion comment
16 years ago
I think this is the art of being a happy strip club patron. Finding the strippers who are going to show you a good time (however you define that; you and I define it relatively similarly), but who are not filled with contempt for what they do. Whether that kind of stripper comprises a large or small percentage of the population, I don't know, but I do know they exist and can be found.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Bobby: You,re right, stripping and other sex work is different than other kinds of work. Whether it is inherently more degrading than ALL other forms of work is debatable. In my personal experience, I have performed various forms of low level, unskilled manual labor that is arguably more unpleasant than being a stripper. But I admit I cannot make a comparison because I have never been a stripper.
But that whole debate is irrelevant, respectfully, to the point I was making, which is only that sex work is a job. So the relationship with the customer is a commercial or business or customer relationship, not a "friendshp". I hope you don't disagree with that.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Bobby: it does not appear that we have a disagreement here.
discussion comment
16 years ago
This is a false dichotomy, and I don't know why this is so hard to grasp. When I see my dentist, he's nice to me. We chat a lot. He's really friendly. He likes me. I likewise genuinely like the people who are my customers, and we even exchange gifts, go out to dinner, etc. Hell, I even traveled once internationally to a customer's home (with my children) and stayed for a week (and not for work).
But, but, but -- we're still not "friends," not in the normal sense. It's a business relationship, and if it were not for the business relationship, we'd never know each other. If I stopped paying my dentist money, he'd stop providing me with services, simple as that. Same with my customers. I like them, but I will not keep providing them with my services if they stop paying me.
So it is not the case that the stripper who is nice to you has to be lying. She can be sincere, she can genuinely like you, and the chit-chat, gifts, etc., can be heartfelt. But it's still all based on a business relationship, not something else. It's not a friendship.
Bobby asks why do these questions keep coming up. Good question, but he doesn't provide an answer. Here's my answer: there is a certain class of customer that usually has the following characteristics: older; unmarried (or in a marriage that does not provide his main source of emotional support); lonely; way too much time on his hands. This is the kind of guy who might spend 6 or 8 hours in a club in a single sitting (yikes!). This is also the type of person who can somehow afford to take several days a month off to travel interstate just to visit a strip club.
That kind of customer will invest much more emotional baggage into the stripper relationship. They won't want to see it as a business relationship. They will want to see it as a "friendship." Secretly, subconsciously, I think they are even looking for a girlfriend.
We have guys on this site who have seen ATFs for years (years!); think of them as their "best friend"; don't have sex with them; and yet still pay them money!!! Guys like that are romanticizing the stripper thing, and they cannot think clearly about this. And that's why this question keeps coming up.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Ozy
Are the 2 young girls you regularly see professional escorts, or strippers who have sex on the side? If the latter, how would you compare the quality of those encounters with most escorts you have seen?
discussion comment
16 years ago
Bobby: I am certainly not urging anyone to be strung along. I am simply reporting a fact: my OTC experiences have almost always (perhaps always) occurred after more than one visit to the club. It does not take months, but it does take 2 or 3 visits so that the girl can ask me questions about myself, verify who I am, and feel comfortable with me. Escorts check out customers too, although their methodology is different. But the motive is the same: safety. Strippers and escorts who see guys in hotels, etc., run the risk of being robbed, beaten, killed. Whenever I have talked to them about safety issues, they have always had stories to report of being threatened or robbed.
By contrast, when I have had sex with strippers ITC, it has almost always happened on the first visit, and usually within 10 minutes of meeting the girl.
The only explanation for the difference that makes sense to me, is that ITC they do not have the same safety concerns, for obvious reasons.
I want to emphasize that I don't think this has anything to do with whether the girl "likes" you or not. It's just a question of whether she feels physically safe from harm when she is with you. Girls who have had sex with me OTC have (without prompting) emphasized that they felt they could trust me.
So, respectfully, I disagree with you. I am not urging guys to be strung along. I am urging them to recognize that the girls have legitimate safety concerns, and that they should acknowledge and attempt to alleviate those concerns. Once a girl trusts that you won't slit her throat (and, of course, assuming she's willing to sell sex in the first place), she will meet you OTC for sex.
Most girls won't have that comfort level on the first meeting, at least not in my experience. If you claim that 80% of the time you are meeting a girl ITC for the very first time, and she is agreeing to meet you in a hotel for sex right on the occasion of that very first meeting, then all I can say is that your experience is vastly different than mine. I would be curious to know how many times in the last 12 months you actually met a stripper and had sex with her OTC on the occasion of that very first meeting. If it is an extremely small number, then I do not think you have much data on which to base a conclusion that 80% of the women will have OTC sex on only one meeting.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Easy: "Did you bring a condom?"
discussion comment
16 years ago
First, I agree with Bobby and Chandler that in your particular case it does not sound likely that you will meet this particular girl OTC. But there is no harm in asking. I've had girls say no on one occasion only to say yes later.
Second, I agree with multiple posters that I would stick with pay-to-play sex, and avoid "dating". Nothing against strippers per se, but I think strip clubs are a poor choice for a dating service for a number of obvious reasons.
Third, I also agree with Bobby that any claim of regularly fucking hot strippers for free is BS. Can it sometimes happen? Sure, but it is the very rare exception not the rule. If a stripper was willing to "date" you she would expect it to be a exclusive relation just like any other girl. Strippers (and hookers) are not sex maniacs they are just doing a job. They are not going to have lots of random sex with guys unless they are getting paid.
Last, I agree the key to sex OTC is mutual trust. Most sensible girls will not agree to meet you in a hotel room after only one or two encounters ITC (and if they do, that should give you pause). If you want to fuck a girl OTC, visit her repeatedly at the club and build up a level of trust. Then if she's willing to make some extra $$$, she will hook up with you.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Reading some of the articles about this suggests there is less to meet the eye here. One thing is the lawyer running this place sounds like an absolute pig, who treated his employees like shit, and tried to extort sex out of the girls. A lot of them turned on him and are in the process of diming him out. Another thing is that he was engaged in money laundering and drug dealing, and this is what appeared to attract the attention of law enforcement. And last but not least the evidence of actual prostitution ITC seems a little thin. One dancer/porn star offered a threesome for $5K, but it was to be held OTC, not at Hot Lap Dance. Other dancers actually said that if they were "caught" selling sex they got in trouble. I'm betting this guy will face more trouble for tax evasion than anything else.
discussion comment
16 years ago
As Bobby notes I've already expressed my opinion at length. To summarize: I think escorts' "technical" skills are often superior, and if you find the right escort she will do a lot of things some strippers won't do. On the other hand, if you find the right stripper the sex is more "real" and, ultimately for me, more satisfying. If given the choice between my current regular stripper and the best escorts I've had, I'd choose my current stripper.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I am also not sorry to see this place meet its demise, but I have to say the news story does not fill me with confidence about its accuracy. I was just at this place a couple weeks ago, and there are things in the story that are blatantly false. You did not need to be recommended by a "member" to get in, and you did not need to go thru any kind of internet screening. Nor were there any goons at the door. I got into the building and up to the club without seeing a soul, and when I buzzed the door to the club it was answered not by a goon but by a young woman and a young man. The woman asked me for my $70, gave me my "membership card" (which merely would allow me re-entry without paying the $20 extra fee), and waltzed in. No one even asked me my name, much less sought a referral. So much for the club's exclusivity.
This also did not appear to be a haven for "high rollers." I was the only guy I could see wearing a suit, and as someone in my mid-40s, I also appeared to be one of the oldest guys there. Most of the customers appeared to be pretty young guys in their 20s, and they looked like tourists to me. I think this is more of a haven for tourists, and college frat parties, not Wall Streeters and lawyers.
I (wisely) did not try the private rooms, which indeed were quoted at $300 for 15 minutes. But again, I have to wonder why any "high roller" would be so stupid as to waste money on something like that. The $300 would just get you the room. If you paid, say, another $300 for a blow job that would be a mighty expensive blowjob. I can see tourist falling for that, but an executive? It seems unlikely to me. Escorts are plentiful in NYC, and they will come to your hotel room (or you can go to their hotel room) 24/7, and if you spent $600 you'd get a lot more than a 15 minute blowjob in a cubicle. Again, I imagine there must be rich executives that are that stupid about how they spend their money, but I don't think there are a lot of them. As a tourist trap for young guys looking for excitement in the big city, however, the place makes a lot of sense.
I suspect most of Mr. Posner's money came from those dumb tourists, not execs, and I also suspect a lot of it came from non-sexual activities. The 1 song LDs were $40, so it would be easy for a fool to spend $500 before he ever got his pants off. If you guess a mere 100 guys revolving thru the place a night (the place was huge), dropping a mere $200 a piece (which is almost guaranteed given the door charge and the price of LDs), I don't think Mr. Posner needed to sell a single handjob to make millions. I think he traded more in a high volume, low quality (and well advertised) tourist trade, than in an exclusive, high roller (and secretive) sex trade.
On the other hand, I'm glad we've finally uncovered the identity of David9999. Lol.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Hmmm, to some extent it might be a little unfair to ask a girl to rank her own looks, it kind of puts her on the spot. But having met wondergrl in person I would say she's quite beautiful, rather petite. But she definitely does not look Swedish.
discussion comment
16 years ago
There is a bit of received wisdom that attractive women are stuck up and less attractive women are more eager to please, and hence better in the sack. Indeed, it is such a common belief it is almost a stereotype. I think there is some truth to that. But the opposite can also often be true. Better looking people are often better at sex, for the simple reason that they have done it more often and thus have better skills. The best sex I have had, frankly, has been with women who are very attractive. On the other hand, I have slept with not so great looking women who, sadly, did not even know how to give a decent blow job.
Another stereoptype is that older women are hotter, and younger women are too inexperienced to know what they are doing. Again, there's some merit to that, but it's less than 100% true. These days, a lot of younger women, in fact, have loads of experience. The 20 year old I regularly see has been fucking since she was 14, so she's got game. Plus, the younger generation has more quickly gotten into kinkier shit. I'm more likely to get atm with a 20 year old than a 40 year old.
I see the really hot sex workers as analogous to professional athletes. They have a time limited career, and they are going to make the most of it. So a girl with those gifts may be selling it to the max.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Chandler is actually the soon-to-be-former Mayor of Detroit, Kwame Kilpatrick (the guy with the text messages to his mistress).
And I'm New Jersey's Governor Jon Corzine, by the way.
discussion comment
16 years ago
No.
discussion comment
16 years ago
wondergrl: I know, we've talked about this in our pms, so now we will share our private discussion with the board.
If the PH mangagement cannot protect its employees' safety, then it should be shut down. That's true for any type of employer, in any type of business. I think any type of club -- extras or no extras -- should have the means available to protect the girls' safety (e.g., panic buttons). I don't think the potential availability of extras is what makes a club dangerous. The club you and I have talked about is perfectly safe, even though extras are widely available. What makes a club safe is that it is well managed. A club can be well managed (or not) regardless of whether extras are available.
And, again, I think a girl seeing a guy OTC is taking the much higher risk.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I don't want to disagree with my friend wondergrl, but she knows perfectly well that sex in the club does not always lead to disaster.
There are a lot of good reasons why some girls (and patrons) will prefer sex ITC to sex OTC, at least initially. One big reason is safety. A girl who meets a guy in a hotel room is taking a big chance unless she knows him. In the club, she at least has the comfort of knowing there are lots of people within 20 feet, and that there are employees of the club who will watch over and deal with any unruly patron. If a girl wants to make extra money that way, I fail to see how anyone is harmed.
It is nonsense to suggest that sex ITC will ruin clubs. Sex ITC has been ever present for many years. Clubs go thru changes and cycles, but that does not mean they are going downhill generally.
There are some clubs that allow sex and some that don't. Some clubs go thru cycles, becoming more strict when they feel they are being watched, less strict otherwise. And, yes, some clubs get shut down (often only to reappear again elsewhere under a new name). AMPs and escorts are the same way. There has been a constant battle between LE and the sex industry for thousands of years, and LE has never won, because there will always been a steady demand for sex, and there will always be a steady supply of women willing to sell it. Anyone who thinks they can change that is crazy.
There is nothing new about sex in the club. Strip clubs have been like this for decades. Contrary to what some posters suggest, this is NOT a new development. The idea that sex ITC is ruining the clubs is baseless. Also bullshit is the idea that the quality of clubs or dancers is somehow declining. On the contrary, on average clubs are more pleasant and safer than they used to be, and dancers are better looking. Thanks to the internet and places like tuscl, it's much easier for us to comparison shop, and that forces the clubs to improve their quality. The club where I can most easily get sex also happens to be the club where the girls are the best looking.
People have been whining about sex ITC for years. And guess what -- the clubs still exist, the girls still dance and provide extras, and life goes on. When is the sky going to fall? It hasn't yet, and the chicken littles have been prattling on about this for eons.
What is this debate really about? Some particular patrons have a very specific definition of what they think strip clubs are for, and they want to shove that definition down everyone else's throat. They think some "good girls" only dance and wriggle, and the "bad girls" are selling sex. This is all part of their over-romanticized notion of strippers. The same guys who want to ban sex ITC are the guys who like to think of the stippers as their quasi-girlfriends (albeit girlfriends with whom they never have sex).
Well, gee, when were these particular patrons appointed strip club monitors? Why do they get to decide what they rest of us should and should not enjoy? If there was an election when they were made arbiters of what is and is not allowed, I don't recall getting to cast my vote. Personally, I think the market should get to decide what type of service is provided at clubs. If, indeed, most patrons don't want sex, then the clubs won't provide it. But if a significant group of patrons do want it, and are willing to pay for it, then the clubs should be allowed to provide it.
So some guys are made uncomfortable by sex in the club? So what? Stick to clubs -- there are plenty of them -- where extras are strictly prohibited. And if you happen into a club where extras are allowed, try not to think about what the other guys are doing in the VIP. It's none of your business anyway. Does it just gross you out knowing a guy in the next room is getting a blow job? Tough shit. It grosses me out when I see a 20 something sitting in the lap of some disgusting old septuagenarian, but I figure it's the price I have to pay when I walk into a club. Until all our seniors are willing to commit to staying away from any girl young enough to be their granddaughter, kindly stop telling the rest of us when we may or may not engage in consensual sex.
discussion comment
16 years ago
David
Don't listen to Bobby and Jablake. What do they know? Trust me, everyone loves your essays. Remember your disquisition on the interior architecture of amps? I laughed so hard I nearly peed my pants. Here's a guy who says he's a $500K a year lawyer, and he's desperately trying to convince a bunch of strangers on the internet that he knows what the interior of a particular whorehouse looks like. Please don't stop. How about a lengthy post on what the bathrooms are like in your favorite club?
Clearly sarcasm and cruel wit are no match for your intelligence and reason. That's why a few choice phrases ("James Bond" and "15 year old") have gotten under your skin like a parasite, while you scratch yourself raw in a pathetic flailing attempt to prove yourself.
No, don't listen to Bobby and Jablake. They're jerks. Trust your old friend, njscfan, and please post another self-justifying missive. It just won't be any fun without you to kick around any more.
Note to Bobby and Jablake: I am not a sadist. I just enjoy watching people suffer.
discussion comment
16 years ago
wondergrl5: The answer is obvious.
You're a SLAYER.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Dick: No, I am afraid you are definitely NOT normal.
On the bright side, however, it sounds like you have a large dick, so that can compensate for what a weird guy you are.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Well Bobby you've cut to the chase on what I was trying to reach indirectly. For me, the body count in the last year has been 15-20. Over a lifetime, give me a break. Bear in mind that business travel, especially international travel, can drive up the number quickly. What the hell am I supposed to do at night -- watch TV in my hotel room?
discussion comment
16 years ago
arbeeguy: definitely not a trick question, but possibly a Rorschach test. All kidding aside, no one volunteered the number of women they had sex with in the past year, and no one wanted to be identified as a slut. In polite company (i.e., the presence of women), I can understand that (the women don't like it), but among tusclers it's interesting to me. I would think this is a site where sleeping around would be tolerated, if not a source of pride, but by and large it is not. It is largely looked down upon.
Oddly, I think Shadowcat hit the nail on the head, although unintentionally, to be sure. On tuscl it's fine to be a dirty old man, that is, a pervert who likes to watch naked ladies and have them rub against you. But it crosses the line to want to fuck those very same ladies. In a nation where porn is king and sex lives are arid (as bob dylan put it, "limited in sex they dare/ to push fake morals, insult and stare"), I guess it is not surprising that it is viewed as more honorable to be a pervert than a slut.
discussion comment
16 years ago
chandler: I don't agree paying for sex makes you a PL. There are plenty of reasons (e.g., marriage) why a non-loser would pay for sex.
Unless you believe (as chitown lawyer argues) that men are never sluts, by definition, then I don't think it matters whether you pay or not, the number of women may define you in the eyes of some as a slut. I think some folks are being a little less than honest with themselves on that score. I think most guys who have lots of sex with lots of different women (paid or unpaid) don't advertise that fact widely, because they are worried about what others will think. Notice that no one here -- even on tuscl -- volunteered the number of different women they boinked in the last year -- not even chandler who claims a high body count would make him a hero.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I guess then the satire was over my head. lol