discussion comment
16 years ago
Really, FONDL, John Edwards has absolutely no morals, no ethics and no character? None whatsoever? You've never met the guy, but if one of children walked up to you right now, you'd have no problem telling them, "you're father is a man utterly without morals, ethics or character." How can you even write something so asinine? You're so fucking perfect, I guess you've never done anything wrong in your whole life, right? You've never lied? You've never done anything immoral? You're perfect, and you feel comfortable passing absolute moral judgment on another man you've never met, and a man who has done an abundance of good with his life. (And, by the way, his wife has obviously forgiven him, but she must be crazy, and you must be 100% right.)
And all this is coming from some old pervert who visits strip clubs. Give me a fucking break. FONDL, if you're so pristine, why don't you post your real name and address, so we can subject YOUR life to public scrutiny? If you're the one without sin, why are you posting under a false name?
discussion comment
16 years ago
No one is completely honest all the time. Anyone who pretends to be 100% honest is the biggest liar of them all. There's no reason we should hold politicians to a higher standard than we hold ourselves. The idea that a politician should be more or less likely to lie than any other normal human being is silly.
I do care, however, when politicians lie about matters that affect the public welfare. When Larry Craig lies about being gay, I don't care. When Bill Clinton lies to Hillary, I don't care. But when Bush lies about WMDs, then I care very much, because his lies cost actual lives. This strikes me as one of the clearest distinctions in the world.
As far as this having anything to do with Christianity, I don't think so. I seem to recall that it was Jesus Christ who pointed out to a mob that was about to stone to death a woman who was a prostitute, that the person without sin ought to throw the first stone. That strikes me as a rather excellent argument for being a little less judgmental about other people, and I am not sure I have ever heard the point better made. Genuine Christianity ought to have something to do with being charitable and understanding, and ought to have nothing to do with being a self-righteous judgmental prig.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I actually agree with much (almost all) of what DickJohnson says about the Democrats. They have been an "all things to all people" party with no clear ideology for a long time. And like Dick says, the Republicans have had a very clear ideology for a long time. Unfortunately, the Republicans ideology is wrong on almost every possible issue, and the last 8 years have inflicted lasting damage on our country. I would love the Democrats to develop a backbone, and I would love to see them be willing to lose elections for the sake of standing up for their beliefs. (To use the example Dick gives, I would love to see the Democrats candidly state that gay people should be allowed to marry.) If the Democrats started taking clear positions, they might lose some elections initially, but in the long run they would develop a winning platform.
But in the meantime, while we are waiting for the Democrats to locate their balls, only a masochist could ask for a continuation of what we've suffered through for the last 8 years. We need to get Obama in the White House, if nothing else, just to stop the damage.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I judge Clinton, Edwards and any other politician by their effectiveness as a politician, not something else. Clinton ran the country well. I could not care less what he was like in his personal life. (By the way, Clinton had sex with a consenting adult. As far as I can tell, she did not regret the encounter. So why is it our business?) I apply the same standards to Republicans by the way. The fact that Guiliani cheated on his wife doesn't bother me. What matters is whether he was or was not effective as mayor.
I think Edwards was an ok politician, although I never voted for him. But he is not diminished in the least in my mind by this. It is irrelevant. And he did not, contrary to AN's comments, run on a "family values" platform. He ran on an economic platform, and a pretty good one at that.
As for tuscl's moralists -- first, the vast majority are guys who are not married (and probably never will be). Respectfully, you don't know shit about marriage, and you should try to be less judgmental about other people's lives. A very large percentage of married people have sex outside marriage. There is a reason for that -- when you get married, your sex drive does not automatically change. Lifelong monogamy is a debatable goal. Given the large percentage of people who cheat, I think un-married people who don't know what they are talking about should tone down their judgmental rhetoric.
There is a small percentage of tuscl moralists who are married. But from what I can see, they are usually very very old guys who no longer have sex with anyone. Your choice to live a celibate life is your choice, but please don't impose it on other people. Some of us have very active and happy sex lives and we intend to continue those lives. If that makes some of the old geezers jealous or frustrated, you know what, tough shit.
Not surprising to me that the denizens of strip clubs are so interested in clucking their tongues about other people's sex lives. I guess it all goes back to being a voyeur.
discussion comment
16 years ago
The Republicans will exploit whatever they can get their hands on. Do they want to talk about the economy? About the biggest foreign policy blunder of the last 40 years? I don't think so. They'd definitely rather talk about sex. Let's be serious. These are the scumbags that ran a certified draft dodger for president, yet had the balls to accuse a guy who volunteered for combat of cowardice. So, yes, for certain, the Republicans will stoop to any level to win. They are the party of the gutter.
The real question is this: Will it work? You know, maybe, just maybe, the American people are tired of taking it up the ass for corporate America. Maybe watching thousands of working class kids get killed for nothing has turned everyone's stomache. Maybe seeing the economy go down the tubes has got Joe six-pack thinking. We'll see. After all, they won the last two elections only by stealing them. We'll see, we'll see.
discussion comment
16 years ago
It proves he's human. How awful. Who would you rather have, a guy like Clinton who slept around but ran the country well, or a guy like Bush, who (probably) does not cheat on his wife, but has repeatedly lied to his country, and in the process run our country into the ground. When I vote for a person running for public office, I am choosing an elected official. I am not choosing a friend or a spouse. When the moronic media shows as much interest in the lives of men and women that are being sacrificed in Iraq as shows in the sex lives of politicians and celebrities, it will be a great day for our country.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Well, I'm not sure how much you're spending or what you want to get in exchange for what you are spending. My goal is to have periodic additional sexual companions. Once I find a good partner, I will stick with that person, and then I am really no longer going to the clubs, and thus no longer spending money on what I feel are "incidentals". That helps control costs, for me. Otherwise, for me, part of what makes going to the clubs expensive is that you are spending a lot of money on stuff that doesn't do anything for me. Once I have a regular fuck buddy, my money is just going to her, and so there's no waste.
I think (but this is largely a guess on my part) that guys who are more into the "club experience" limit their expenditures by budgeting -- for example, they take a certain amount of cash with them, and they just don't take their credit cards or atm cards, so when they run out of money, they leave.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Bobby
Far from giving you a hard time, my speculation that you are in high school is actually cutting you slack.
If you are in high school, then you are just an insufferable brat. There's hope. You may grow up one day.
If you are an adult, however, that hope dims. If we take you seriously, and believe what you claim, we wind up with the following sad report:
*You've never been married
*You can't even find a girlfriend
*You resort to strippers as a substitute for companionship, because no woman will have non-paid sex with you
*Even with the strippers, they treat you like garbage. They won't even smile at you, or give you a hug goodnight, or show you any sign of affection at all.
*Indeed, you feel no connection with the strippers at all, even though they are your only source of female companionship. Your couplings with them often make you feel worse.
*You apparently are sometimes broke, and when you have no money, the strippers are nowhere to be found, and will have nothing to do with you.
*Which explains why you have only had sex five times in the last year. Because without money the strippers won't even touch you. (So I gather your financial picture is often rather grim.)
*Five times in one year. And you only have sex with paid sex workers, because you can't get a girlfriend or wife. God that pretty much defines "pathetic loser," doesn't it? You have had sex fewer times in the past year than I have had sex in the past week.
*You haven't had sex with anyone -- not even a stripper -- for 16 weeks. No wonder you're so sensitive about jokes about your propensity to masturbate. I have never in my adult life gone 4 months without having sex with a woman. I can't even imagine what it would be like. (Likewise, I've spent all but a few months of my adult life in a LTR. I guess you wouldn't know what that's like, would you?) But then, I can't imagine what it would be like to be a loser like you.
*And, last but not least, as you confessed to us just this week, you can't even maintain an erection, and have to rely on viagra. Really pathetic. If that's to be believed, either you're an old geezer (and so the sorry state of your life is even more hopeless and pathetic), or you're a relatively young guy with a major sexual dysfuntion. So not only are you a despicable little worm, you're a limp dick worm at that.
On the whole, it's not too suprising that no woman will have anything to do with you unless you pay her money. Nor is it surprising that even most strippers openly treat you with contempt. Tell me, do the strippers laugh at you when you can't get an erection? That must be a painful experience, which would certainly fuel your ever present hatred for them.
Not a pretty picture. Add to this the fact that you are constantly spewing forth venom towards strippers, and repeating the same old gay bashing insults, and you look only worse and worse. Was your mom a prostitute who abandoned you as a small child? Did your foster dad regularly rape you? That would go a long way to explaining your sexual panic when it comes to both women and gays. Not saying it's true, of course. If you have another explanation for your fear of women and gays, let us know.
See -- you're much better off if everyone thinks you're only 13. If you're 13, you're just a brat. If we assume you're an adult, however, then you are the most friendless, hopeless pathetic loser on the discussion board.
But that's ok Bobby -- just respond with one of your typical "gay" insults, or repeat for the 10th time the "your IQ is 13" remark. I'm sure that will make you feel a little better about the sad state of your life.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Wow, poor Bobby's really losing it. You can almost see the flecks of spit flying through the air. One poster suggested to me that Bobby's problem is "raging hormones." I suspect the real issue is that his parents took him off Ritalin for the summer break. After Labor Day when high school resumes, he probably will calm down.
discussion comment
16 years ago
No, sorry, your prior post wasn't sarcasm. You made a sincere attempt to defend Shadowcat, and everyone viewed it that way (including Shadowcat, who thanked you for the post). A week later you did not deny that you commonly rose to his defense, and you complained that others unfairly picked on him. In less than a week you've gone from being Shadowcat's most loyal "follower" to this attack. Why the change?
discussion comment
16 years ago
I can't decide which is more odd: Shadowcat's original post, or Bobby's purported reaction to that OP.
This was Bobby just a few weeks ago:
"I think you guys are totally missing shadowcat's points. Not only does he, for god knows what reason, want the stripper affection to be real, but:
***> He wants to know that he is doing better than the
rest of us with the girls. This is proved not only by all the signs of real affection he gets, but the incredible deals he gets for paid for sex. <***
So I'll go first:
I myself never get signs of real affection. They just want my money, and then won't even give me a smile or a hug goodnight afterward. And I pay at least double what shadowcat does. So he's way ahead of me.
Who's next?"
So why the change in attitude? Has Shadowcat refused to show Bobby his porn collection? If so, it would be a cruel blow, given that masturbation is Bobby's only form of sexual release.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Great story
discussion comment
16 years ago
Returning to the OP: I think this is quite common. I have heard about this at every club where I have gotten to know the dancers reasonably well, and I do not think they are all making it up. Just last week a dancer told me about another girl who auditioned, and the manager/owner insisted that as part of the process she have sex with him She didn' get the job anyway. Nice guy.
discussion comment
16 years ago
To answer the OP I don't think it matters. As O notes, it's a job not an affair.
discussion comment
16 years ago
bobby
I hesitate to respond to your garbage. We all know you are posting these threads about my wife only because you are angry about being called a loser by me and others, and you are lashing out. Since you are just making things up (e.g., your claim that I pm'd you saying I was unhappy in my marriage, which you know was false), it's rather like if I wrote "Bobby, thanks for your pm telling me about how fat and ugly you are, etc., etc." You and I know nothing can satisfy you because you don't really care about my wife (or anyone else), you're just putting up these garbage attacks on me and my family because you are stressed that you have been called on for your bs.
Nonetheless, I will point out that I always practice safe sex (unlike you, per your own prior admissions), and I've been regularly tested, and I've never infected anyone with anything. (Your claim that protection reduces the risk of exposure by only 50% is wrong, like much else that you say regarding STDs.)
As for whether cheating on my wife is "moral," or not, other people on this site can think whatever they want, although I think it would be the height of hypocrisy for people who regularly go to strip clubs to be judgmental.
But in your case the accusation is laughable. You publicly state on this board that you regularly have unprotected sex, and feel under no compulsion to wear a condom. You claim (I know, I know, it's a debatable claim, since I doubt that anything you say has any truth to it) to have sex with a number of sex workers. By your own reckoning, therefore, you are exposing countless women to disease. That is clearly immoral. And, given that you have repeatedly taken the position that strippers are unimportant "degenerates," one can only conclude that you are deliberately and recklessly exposing them to harm because you do not care about them as human beings.
Should you ever get a girlfriend, according to your own moral reckoning, you would also be morally required to tell her that you have repeatedly had unprotected sex with sex workers in the past. Is that what you bring up on your first date? I'm betting not.
But there I go again, relying on unreliable assumptions. The reason you have gone on these obsessive attacks against me (starting two threads in two days attacking me by name) is that you are angry because I asked some simple questions: Have you ever had a girlfriend? Ever been married? How old are you? Do you have any friends? When did you last have sex without having to pay for it?
I guess those questions are hitting pretty close to home, and making you feel uncomfortable. So, your only way to respond is by attacking me and my marriage. Good luck. My marriage is stable and happy (I've been married almost all of my adult life). I've always been in good, long term, stable relationships with women. I have wonderful kids and a great family and lots of friends. I get lots of sex that I never pay anything for. And I don't go around hating women or the world generally. Attack me all you want, but you will never get any of that, because you are a miserable, sad pathetic loser, who can only get sex if you pay for it. (If then. Your explanations for refusing to write even one review ring pretty false.) Women can tell what a hateful loser you are, and that's why they shun you like the plague. But, honestly, don't get mad at me. I'm just the messenger, and attacking me won't do you any good.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Book Guy: I admire your fiscal responsibility. Of course, the difference between somelike you (on the one hand), and someone like the fictitious billyboy13 (on the other hand) is that you have posted reviews. billyboy13 has not. Now for someone who has just joined the site, that's understandable. For someone who has been here since, say, last September, and who has been very active, but who just can't manage to fill out one review, it becomes a little odd.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Actually, it's sillier than that. I did not pm bobby with any complaints/concerns about my marriage. I'm quite happy with my marriage. I pm'd bobby to point out to him what a loser he is. This is way of getting back at me. Apparently the way bobby gets revenge is by posting false statements about people. Whatever.
I do think his post is revealing nonetheless. He basically admits that the reason he sees strippers is that he cannot get a girlfriend. Sad.
Normally I would feel sorry for a PL who can't get a gf, and who has to resort to paid encounters for female companionship. But in bobby's case, I'm forced to conclude that the reason no woman will have anything to do with him is that he's a woman hater. Consider the nasty shit he posted publicly about wondergrl, a person he hasn't even met. If he lets loose with that kind of garbage publicly, in person his hostility must be pretty apparent. Given that, you can hardly blame women for giving him a wide bearth. So in the end bobby's involuntary bachelorhood looks like just deserts.
Of course, that may be making the unfair assumption that bobby has hit puberty. That's pretty debatable in my mind. I noticed how readily (and angrily) he reacted to my suggestion that any 13 year old can join the discussion board. It sure is curious that bobby's been here since September and can't post a single review. Given the possibility that he is underage, I am going to do my best to avoid interacting with him.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Bobby
With all due respect your post is a little odd. Wondergrl is not, as you would have it, the only female attention I receive, paid or unpaid. I have a pretty normal life, married, friends, etc. (By the way, are you married and/or do you have a girlfriend? Do you have any friends? When was the last time you had sex with a girl without paying her money? Just curious.)
Wondergrl is simply someone I've met via this site, she's a nice person, a genuine person, and I would rather not see her abused. How does that make me a pathetic loser? I think friends are supposed to stick up for each other; that's normal behavior. I'm not groveling or crawling or whatever it is you are trying to describe. I'm just suggesting that there's not any justification for hassling her. I don't think that makes me a white knight, just a normal person.
She's been subjected to some abusive emails via people on this site. I think that's uncalled for. Don't you? I know that there's a fair amount of give and take on this site, but not very many people are subjected to some of the weird emails she gets. I can't see why you think that's ok.
More fundamentally, I don't see why you dislike her so much. She certainly hasn't done anything to you, has she? Your intense dislike for her seems neurotic to me.
discussion comment
16 years ago
For me here's the key question: Do you have a regular woman in your life (wife or girlfriend) who is your source of emotional support?
If not, then I think you are going to keep falling into this "atf trap." Most guys, even the really hardbitten ones, tend to look to for a woman who will be their love interest/emotional support, whatever you want to call it. If you don't have someone like that in your life already, then when you are hanging out with strippers and hookers, you are naturally going to gravitate toward trying to use them to fill that void. It's hard to maintain a pure "fuck buddy" relationship with someone under those circumstances. I think you will naturally start developing feelings for her.
There's nothing inherently wrong with dating strippers and hookers, mind you. They have relationships with guys. Contrary to a lot of the mean stereotypes about them on this site, many of them are perfectly fine. The problem is that you are starting off as a paying customer, and so the lines get pretty blurry and the "relationship" gets tricky. If she just keeps seeing you as a customer, you are being set up for a fall. There are a number of guys on this site who have posted about how confused and upset they were when their ATF suddenly left without a forwarding address (or they found out they were sleeping around, or whatever). What really confused them, of course, is that it was supposed to be a purely fuck buddy relationship, but somewhere along the line they started developing feelings for her.
If you do not have a regular gf/wife whom you love, then I suggest finding that person first, and laying off the strippers/hookers for a while. It's not surprising that given the way you are feeling right now, that you are not finding the sex only relationship unsatisfying. That's because you are really looking for something more. Seeing a stripper/hooker, no matter how hot she is, when you don't have any feelings for her, is not going to fill that void.
On the other hand, if you do have a wife/gf you love, then just spend lots of time with her. Don't worry, you'll get bored soon enough, your eyes will start to wander, and before you know it you'll be back to enjoying sex with semi-strangers.
But my main point is don't use a pay-for-play sex buddy deal as a substitute for a relationship. Unless you are a truly and utterly heartless bastard, you will always end up unhappy.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Do you still pay her money?
discussion comment
16 years ago
As I suspected, this is a sign that the prostitution charges are pretty weak. The failure to even get an indictment is quite unusual.
discussion comment
16 years ago
I am wary of generalizations. The stereotype, as you note, is that younger dancers are less sensuous, less skilled, and perhaps more restrictive. There is probably some grain of truth to it, as there is to many a stereotype, but there are so many exceptions to the rule that it renders the rule useless in the long run.
Part of the problem is that (in my opinion) young girls have changed from what they were like in my generation (I'm in my 40s). Today, girls in middle school are giving blowjobs and sending x-rated pics of themselves to their boyfriends at school (not all girls or even a majority, obviously, but a larger percentage than you might imagine). By the time they're in their 20s, a lot of these girls are pretty experienced, and can be pretty wild.
The dancer I've been seeing for months is 20 and is fantastic in bed. Initially, ITC she did fit the stereotype of the younger dancer, holding back a bit and a little more restrictive. But after developing a level of trust she let herself go, and then it was off to the races. I think a girl who lets you lick her pussy ITC for 15 minutes is fairly described as "uninhibited." So a young girl who initially might be lower mileage may not stay that way.
My view is that if you can get a younger girl who is good in bed, why not? I'm already married to a woman my age who is attractive and sexual, so if I am going to go outside my marriage to get something more, I'd like it to be special -- and it's hard to beat the feel of a tight young 20 year old girl. If it requires a little extra effort to find the right girl and get in her pants, I think it's worth it.
BUT be sure to check ID. Seriously, I insist on it for anyone who looks borderline. You don't want to get in trouble.
discussion comment
16 years ago
This strikes me as a chicken and the egg situation. Am I a pig because I go to strip clubs, or do I go to strip clubs because I am a pig? I suspect the latter. I think if strip clubs were outlawed, I would still harbor thoughts impure and unchaste every time I saw a fine looking woman. Just the way I am. I think I was born that way.
discussion comment
16 years ago
Shadowcat
You're right. We're wrong. The strippers love you. They love you, man. They really do. In fact, they want to marry you. But don't let them. No, keep stringing them along, and that way you can have wild sex with each them, and yet not be tied down. Just don't break their poor hearts, big guy.
So, now that we've cleared that up, the answers to your various questions become obvious:
*Why did the stripper offer to change your tire? So you could drive her to the nearest preacher and get hitched!
*Why did the stripper give you her cell and her husband's cell? So you could tell the husband to fuck off, because you were going to steal his wife from him.
*Why did the stripper give her brother $20 to go away? She was hoping you'd propose.
*Why did the stripper give you an answering machine? So she could leave you a marriage proposal.
*Why did the stripper write to you from the Phillipines? Because she didn't ever want you to forget her during her absence, she's just so in love.
*Why did the stripper give you her parents' phone number? Obvious, dummy. So you could ask for her hand in marriage.
*And last but not least, why did the chicken cross the road? Because the chicken was a stripper, and she wanted to get to Shadowcat!
Satisfied? Can we be done with this subject now?
discussion comment
16 years ago
Shadowcat
We're not bashing we're just being realists. Everything you are saying can be true, but it's still a business, not a friendship, and if you stopped paying, the relationship would be over.
There's nothing unique about this to strippers.
*A client takes me out to dinner. Why?
*A client invites me to vacation at his home for a week. Why?
*Another client invites me to use her beach house for a week. Why?
*A vendor takes me out to lunch. Why?
*Another vendor buys me wine and an elaborate fruit basket. Why?
*A colleague sends me an elaborate basket of fruits and chocolates. Why?
*I receive countless holiday/xmas cards from vendors, clients, colleagues, etc. every year. Why, why, why?
I'll tell you why: IT'S GOOD BUSINESS THAT'S WHY! In any business (in mine anyway) that kind of thing happens dozens of times a year. It will most especially happen in the direction of a service provider giving bennies to a customer. The strippers are the service providers. You're the customer. That's why it's happening.
Don't believe me? Show up to the club, but stop spending money. Don't buy drinks, don't buy lapdances, don't even pay the cover (if there is one). Tell all the strippers you are flat broke and can never afford to spend any more money on them again. And see what happens.