Comments by FONDL (page 25)

I once had a relationship with a young woman who wasn't a stripper that went through the exact same cycles. My ATF asked me if I would help a friend of hers who I had never met. So I called this girl and we arranged to meet at a local bar. And she turned out to be really hot and I began helping her. At first it was just professional guidance and advice (she had just graduated from college and was looking for her first "real" job) but then she started to ask for financial help too. And thus began a relationship that was really a lot of fun until it blew up because she kept asking for more and more help and was willing to do less and less in return. I was sorry to see it end but she just got too greedy. It got to the point where she seemed to resent my help but kept asking for it as if it were her right. So I guess it's not only strippers who have these issues. I agree that it's really hard to convince a stripper that you're a nice guy and interested in them as people. I'm a little like Chandler in that I don't pretend to be uninterested in them physically. But if I find a girl I really like I want to get to know them as real people, and that's a tough sell. I think part of the problem is that some of these girls have never known a nice guy, everyone they've ever known just wanted to take advantage of them, so that's what they expect. And they're suspicious of anyone who claims to be otherwise. The only stripper relationship that didn't go through those cycles for me was my ATF - she treated me like a friend from the beginning and that never changed. I didn't do anything differently, she was just different.

Agreed Chandler. Standardization is a pipe dream. The only way it could ever happen is if we all (1) agreed on what's more important, and (2) could somehow separate how much fun we had with what the club is really like. But we don't all look for the same things, and we probably don't go into clubs with writing the review high on our minds. When I've visited strange cities I've often chosen to visit some of the lower rated clubs rather than ones with higher rating because the lower rated ones sounding from their descriptions as more to my liking. IMO the numerical ratings are an OK initial screening device but nothing more - they used to determine which reviews I read first but not which clubs I visited.

Jester, I think it's always been like this but maybe it's gotten worse lately, probably depends on where you are. Strip clubs have always been known as clip joints, but some are clearly worse than others. And let's face it, some strippers aren't very nice people and would fight with each other no matter where they were. There are some very nice clubs and some very nice strippers out there. If that's what you prefer (and not everyone does) it's worth looking for.

Snowtime, it's been years since I've been to S&T so my info is probably outdated. But from the reviews here and elsewhere it doesn't sound like it has changed much. S&T is unlike any club I've ever seen elsewhere, it's more of a sex emporium than a strip club. You enter through an adult bookstore and go out the back door. At that point you can turn either left or right. If you turn right you go through an entrance to the strip club, where girls dance nude on stage and give lap dances of two types - dances in the open or dances in private rooms at a per song price. If you turn left, there are other girls standing outside little rooms offering bed dances at a price per minute. I don't know which is the best deal, you'll have to ask, and I don't know which is the most contact, it probably depends on the girl, but the place is known for very high contact. The bed dances are done in the nude, I'm not sure about the laps but my guess is that they are too. The place is BYOB, guys bring in coolers and sit on them, there is little other seating, most everyone stands like at a party. The stage is separated from the room by restraining ropes about 5 feet away and you tip the girls by throwing crumpled bills at their crotch. If you hit it you win some sort of prize, maybe a trip on stage? It's very raunchy and draws a very young crowd, all drinking beer, which is why it feels like a fraternity party to me. It's located in an industrial area near the river south of downtown. Parking is onstreet only but not difficult. It's also a fairly safe area - we're talking the city of brotherly love here - but I wouldn't stagger around drunk late at night. I was only there at night and the girls were surprisingly attractive for a dump like this, I don't know what it's like during the day. It's very popular and there are several other clubs in the area. Let us know if it's changed. Good luck and happy lapping (or bedding.)

I also think there's another factor at play here - I've found that many strippers, especially the young inexperienced ones who I prefer, are conflicted by the morality and ethics of the business. And that manifests in dislike and resentment of customers. In other words, if all the customers are assholes, then the dancer's unethical behavior is justified in her mind. This causes problems for the customers who are nice guys, because we challenge the customer image that the dancer has carefully constructed. Her defense mechanism may be to deride us as PLs. It's a defense posture that can be impossible to break through. And can be a major cintributing factor in the cycle described earlier.

You're right of course, Chandler. I don't make any conscious effort to screen out ROBs, my normal screening process seems to take care of that problem just fine. I think the guys most likely to encounter an ROB are the guys looking to get the most mileage, and that has never been a primary interest of mine.

For me, attitude is everything. The girl who is too aggressive or obviously phony or who just seems to be going through the motions gets rejected every time. The girl who is pleasant, friendly, and courteous wins the game, provided of course that I find her physically attractive - I've never had a girl like that try to rip me off.

I think there are also a couple other factors at work here. First impressions can have a big effect on ratings, and they in turn are often determined by when you go. For example, I remember my first visit to Filly Corral Showbar very well - I was their first customer that night, they had just opened (I didn't know their hours.) There were only two other people in sight - a bartender and a girl sitting at the bar. So I sat down and ordered something and started talking to them, asking them to explain how the place worked. They were both very friendly and the girl turned out to be everything I like in a dancer - young, cute, intelligent, friendly, not at all pushy. We ended up spending a couple hours together and she turned out to be just what I like in the VIP room. So I came away thinking the place was really great - friendly, attractive girls, good dances etc. And I probably gave it an 8 or 9. But suppose I had gone in a couple hours later when they were really busy (it's a popular place.) The bartender wouldn't have had a chance to talk. The only dancers who would come by would have been the unpopular ones. And I would have left thinking the place was unfriendly, that all the dancers were ugly, and I wouldn't have known how good the private dances were. All of which would have equalled a much lower rating. I've been back several times and think it's the best club in the state, but if that first visit had been a dud I probably wouldn't have ever returned. A lot of small neighborhood clubs are like that - very friendly and fun once they get to know you, not much of either if they don't and it's busy. Pertner's Tavern is very much like that, all the attractive girls spend all their time with their regulars. The place where I met my ATF was also like that. Which is why I and a lot of other regulars always rated it highly (attractive girls, good dances, moderate prices) while newcomers would try it once and say it was a dump with ugly girls and a very unfriendly atmosphere and they'd give it a poor rating. And we were both right. A newcomer's perception of a club is often very different than that of someone who goes regularly.

BG, I will definately add "bulgitude" to my vocabularly. Great word. Although in the cases I was referring to it was probably more their pushitude, which is usually a big turnoff for me.

What I find puzzling is that a lot of strippers do everything they can to make you believe that you're more than just a customer, that the relationship is as much personal as business. And then if you begin to actually believe that and act accordingly, they get annoyed. We all know better (or should) because we've been doing this regularly for years and understand the game. But there are plenty of customers out there who are relative newbies, who don't know the rules, and take it at face value. Why do strippers find that so annoying? (Rhetorical question but feel free to comment anyway.) I find the whole stripper-customer relationship thing to be quite fascinating. Seems to me it's pretty unique. And I think the girls who make the most money at this game are the ones who can figure it out. Which most of them can't.

Ralphy, S&T isn't my cup of tea, it seems too much like a fraternity party where they hired some strippers, and I outgrew fraternity parties about 45 years ago. But the private dances (if you can call them that) are very special and they had some surprisingly attractive and friendly girls working on my one visit. It's not hard to see why some people whose tastes are a little different than mine would love the place, especially younger guys. My favorite Philly area club is Club Risque in Bristol. And I think the best club in the state is Filly Corral Showbar. Partner's Tavern probably runs a close second, followed by Pleasure Dome. My favorite NJ club is Erotic Cafe. I'd be a regular at any of those 5 clubs if I lived close enough. Bones, you should try Filly Corral sometime, it's not that far for you.

Whenever I've gotten the "don't be so shy" comment, it's usualy been from a girl who I didn't care for - she wrongly interpreted my reluctance to encourage her as shyness.

David, I think the expectation that a regular will last 3-6 moinths is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Seems to me they'd be better off thinking about how to make it last longer than assuming that it won't. And "Why isn't a girl as nice to me ..." was a rhetorical question. My barber is still as nice to me, the dry-cleaning lady is still as nice to me, the bartender at my favorite restaurant ... etc. Why should a stripper be different, isn't it a commercial transaction like all the others, isn't a stripper running a business? (Those are also rhetorical questions - we all know that getting naked and sitting on our laps makes the stripper relationship different.)

Raincoat, I have several problems with your rating system. First of all, you are weighing your 5 factors equally and I wouldn't do that, not even close. For example if dancer quality is terrible, I don't care how great the other 4 factors are, the place sucks. Similarly if it's grossly overpriced. And you've completely left out some things that others might consider important, eg. the music is too loud, or the place is in an unsafe area and there's no parking. Or it gets too crowded. Then there's the issue of how do you rate something like dancer quality anyway - say for example half the girls are gorgeous and the rest are average or less, and you end up having a great time with one of the gorgeous ones, how do you rate that? Or some of the girls give great private dances and some don't, so it makes a huge difference which girl you end up with. Face it, the numerical rating doesn't mean much, we all have different standards of what we like and don't like. What's important is the description. Then you can make up your own mind.

Jablake, you're taking me much too literally. When I say legal, I'm talking about the absence of extras (uncovered genital contact of one sort or another.) I'm well aware that the law and it's interpretation are murky and vary with both place and time - we've talked about that many times here. But I think we all agree that uncovered genital contact in a strip club is almost always illegal.

David, this kind of stuff has been going on since the day strippers were invented. It may be getting worse, but that's just a reflection of the continued decline in civility in our society as a whole - it's happening everywhere. Some idiot tried to ram my car from behind the other day while I was sitting at a red light (I managed to pull out of his way and he ran the red light) and I have no idea why. We live in a society full of people who don't give a shit about anybody but themselves. Why should strippers be any different?

I would think that going to a strip club instead of visiting family and friends IS hiding out and lying low. Sometimes I wish I could do that.

Just to clarify, when I was clubbing regularly I used to travel a lot on business. So I had what I consider to be the best of both worlds - I had a regular girl near the city that I visited regularly, and I had frequent chance encounters in other cities.

Book Guy, I think your point about "constancy" is right on. That's exactly what I expect from a regular. Bones, I was never into the new challenge thing, but there have been instances when I really enjoyed an evening with a new dancer, then went back to see her and was disappointed. She didn't change, my perception of her did. The only times I've ever tired of a fave is when she stopped treating me the way she had been doing. That's happened to me 3 times. And I've only ever had 5 girls who I considered to be regulars.

I much prefer soft and slow, but I must admit that I once spent time with a VERY young dancer (if she was 18 she just made it the week before) at Industrial Strip who was VERY hard and fast. It was like being attacked by a tiger, I thought she was going to kill me. It was more like a high-speed wrestling match than a lap dance (fortunately she was a very small girl.) And it was one of the most enjoyable and memorable dances I've ever had. So I guess there are always exceptions to any generality.

Bones, you and Shadowcat and a couple other people here are on the Monkey Business list. And I'm waiting to hear about the next episode with your massage therapist :-)

Bones, I think you started a very interesting topic here and I hope my initial response didn't annoy you. I've actually been thinking about this one quite a bit and I've probably changed my mind on it about a half dozen times. I've finally concluded that I don't know how I feel about this topic, I can sympathize with both sides of the issue (which is kinda common for me.) I'm glad we have some ladies here who were willing to give us their perspective. Once again this discussion has illustrated why I enjoy this board, we seem to be able to disagree without being disagreeable, which is becoming pretty rare in our society. Thanks for raising a thought-provoking issue.

It's all (or mostly) about the money - girls will head for the guy who they think represents their best opportunity to make money. They'll keep a low-paying regular waiting while they spend time with a higher-paying regular or someone who they think might become one. They'll keep a club regular waiting while spending time with their own regular. This is one of the main reasons why when I was clubbing regularly I always tried to (1) be some girl's regular, (2) treat her well both financially and otherwise, (3) go when the club was empty, and (4) call ahead and make sure she knew I was coming. That didn't always solve the problem but it did minimize it. If you go when the club is fairly busy, and you spread your money around among several different girls, there will be times when they'll all be busy with someone who comes in just to see them. Even the girls who don't know you will know your habits if you're in the club a lot.

Driver, I agree with you. I guess my question is, why does a dancer throw away a good customer? Why does she stop treating him with courtesy and respect? I understand that most dancers don't want a customer to get too close and don't have any interest in an OTC relationship - so why do they tell you all kinds of personal stuff and why do they suggest getting together OTC? When all I'm looking for is a good club buddy, why do they take it way beyond that to the point where it crashes and burns?

Lopaw, I'm guessing that you are very attractive, and as I said before I think that makes a difference in how welcome a woman is likely to be in a club. You also raise an interesting point - are women more likely to be found in topless places vs. nude ones? As I think about where I've seen female customers (who were usually with men) most frequently, the answer is definately yes. But that may be because the topless places are often a little nicer.