SEXUAL DISCRIMINATION

Bones, I assume that you aren't being sarcastic because I think it's wrong too. But I can't get too excited about it when there are lots of places around that are women only and don't allow men (eg. women only gyms.) Why is that? Why do we accept places that don't allow men but it's wrong to have places that don't allow women? I think that's the real discrimination.

Bones: I saw HBO sex special several yrs ago where there was a stripclub(female dancers) that catered to female customers in Hwood, or BHills area. Anyway, male cameraman (and presumably any other males) were screened/briefed by door lady prior to entry. (Translation- Males "might" be let in if 1 could convince door lady that they aren't going to be a horses a$$). There's a club in Boston area (don't recall name) that "caters" to female customers. I, like Fondl, can't get too excited abt. this, free market forces can be effective regulator, to certain extent. (Remember, too, that f/m custs can get away with some stuff that male custs can't- how 'bout THAT Discrimination?!?)

minnow: How true. Just let a male customer try to get onto stage with a stripper. Most of what they do is phony and old and boring but a guy can't get away with it. A while back on a slow day shift, 4 or 5 five of my favorite dancers had me talked into getting on stage and stripping. I would have done it just for fun but they knew that the DJ was such an asshole that I would have gotten thrown out of the club.

I fully understand that discrimination works both ways. I visited this same club dark.innocence is talking about in 2006, during one of my road trips. It's just a regular SC, upstairs/downstairs set up. It's in plain old OK City. I just can't see how an owner of a regular old SC can institute his own rules without regard for both genders.

I can live with the women only gyms and women or men only private clubs, etc, but this JOINT isn't anywhere near those classifications.

I've calmed down quite a bit, but you could tell I was really PISSED when I read that review. I just wish this world could get along with absolutely NO DISCRIMINATION of any TYPE! Amen! :-)

More demands for government to make choices for us and under the ruse of protecting "rights." :)

Of course, I hate to admit it, the government is probably a hell of a lot smarter than average joe. :( Thus, if government says NO lap dances, then it probably the right choice along with NO smoking and NO drugs.

The freedom of the government making choices for me is just so liberating. No wonder people demanding more and more government.

While I might agree with your sentiments here, the legal outcome of any case would not be that certain.

Unlike for example race based discrimination which (except when purely a private matter) is absolutely prohibited under the equal protection clause of the 14th ammendment - gender based discriminations (like many other "discriminations" can be considered constitutional in certain, (although increasingly limited) instances.

You are correct that this situation is not in the nature of a private club per se, however for that matter neither are womens colleges, who in every case have large enrollments of students using federally guaranteed student loans, and are nominally open for admission to any FEMALE student meeting the academic qualifications of the specific college.

Public restrooms are divided between mens room and womens rooms - yet no man has yet sued and successfully won a case to make all such rooms uni-sex, and that's certainly a form of gender based discrimination.

I have been going to clubs for years (primarily on the west coast), and have NEVER been barred from any one of them, nor have I ever needed a male "escort" to get in. I suspect that this type of thing is very regionally based - more apt to be found in more conservative areas of the country.

I believe that a woman would have a pretty strong case if she ever decided to force the issue. But I doubt any woman would care enough to do so. If one club turned her away....so what? She can take her $$$ somewhere else.

God help any club that ever tried to keep me out! I NEED my T&A!

I've known a couple of clubs that had similar rules. One used to only allow women in if they were a couple (man/woman), or to inquire about employment. When I wanted to check the place out prior to working there without pressure from mgmt, I asked a guy friend to go with me (I had already heard thru the grapevine about the restrictions). The staff didn't say anything to me about the rule, but it was annoying to have to do that. When I worked there, I asked why that rule was in place and was told "We've had problems, and they (women) don't spend money." But that was several years ago, and from what I've heard recently it isn't that way anymore.
To be completely honest, I've wished that certain women WOULDN'T come in: at some places where the minimum age is only 18, giggly little girls come in with groups of anywhere from 5-12 guys and girls. They take up lots of space by moving chairs/tables around, make stupid comments, ask inappropriate questions, laugh at dancers and dances going on, and spend no money. Sure, they might razz one person into getting A dance; a couple girls will usually come up to the stage for one or two dancers to tip a dollar each, snickering and whispering the whole time. When it's a place where dances are on the floor, it makes even some regular custies uncomfortable enough to NOT get dances while these children are present.
Naturally, myself and other dancers do not appreciate it. THOSE are the sort of females I would rather not see in the club, but even then I wouldn't go so far as to deny them entry.

Bones, the word "discrimination" is a symonym for "choice" - the only way to avoid discrimination is to choose everything randomly, eg. draw a name out of a hat for who you want to hire or marry or be president. What you're opposed to isn't discrimination, it's UNFAIR discrimination. And that's the problem, everyone has a different opinion of what is fair or unfair. And people have legitimate different opinions of how deeply the government should be involved in deciding what is fair or unfair.

There's often a conflict between being fair to one group vs. fair to another. For example, say a person running a business thinks he (or she) could do better by limiting the business to a single sex establishment. Should he (or she) be allowed to do so? Which is more important, to be fair to the excluded sex or to be fair to the owner in allowing him (or her) to maximize income? There's no simple answer to that question, and it's one that government is often ill equipped to answer.

I am outraged by the treatment that Dark.Innocence received. She should absolutely have the right to enter the establishment so that dancers can strip off her clothes and fondle her for my viewing pleasure.

Dark.Innocence, do not tolerate this injustice. Fight for your rights.

Seems to me that whenever we've discussed this issue in the past that there were a lot of comments like Raincoat's, guys saying how much they enjoy seeing some hot girl from the audiance get onstage or go to VIP and undress. But suppose the girl isn't hot and is the exact opposite. Does that effect how welcome we would feel toward her? Are we just as welcoming to ugly girls as customers, or are our feelings about sexual discrimination in clubs partly determined by how hot the girl is?

And don't clubs routinely practice sexual discriminatation against guys? How many male dancers does your club have? Seems to me that most clubs don't even hire male bartenders or waiters. Just loser DJs and bouncers.

FONDL: I agree. I have seen some clubs that have a mixture of male and female bartenders but I have never seen a male waitress or a male dancer and have no desire to. Now female bouncers opens up a new theory of thought. Good or bad?

I think FONDL has pointed to the crux of the issue. Everybody goes to strip clubs BECAUSE they practice sex discrimination in hiring dancers, so it shouldn't be such a shocker to find a club that does the same with their patrons. I can see how it's a bummer that they would turn away women in this day and age, but to get outraged over it seems a bit silly.

As for Shadowcat's question, many times I've been in small clubs where there weren't any men on the staff, so if there was any bouncing to be done it would have to be handled by a woman bouncer slash bartender or waitress. Some good, some bad.

I like clubs where they turn away female customers. Unless the female customers are hot, single, interested in me, and as aggressive as the paid dancers about getting physically close to me. Not bloody likely ...

I think it's terrible that someone should deny male patrons the chance to view more tits in the club. I say let the girls in and let them show their tits when tipping. I know I enjoy that. On the other hand, aren't there regular clubs in big cities that randomly deny entrance simply based on ones looks? I thought I heard about clubs like that a long time ago (not strip clubs) and no one seemed to complain about it.

Sometimes for me, I wonder why I have to give out so much personal information to the girl at the door at some clubs. Home phone number, drivers license etc. etc. So far no one has asked me for a blood sample yet.

Shadowcat, I actually know of 2 clubs where the only bouncers are female. In fact neither clubs have any male employees, they're run entirely by females.

Seems to me that the whole point of a strip club is to provide a fun place for heterosexual males. I personally don't have a problem with women in clubs, but I understand a club wanting to be careful not to offend guys who do. I wonder how welcome we would all be in a Lesbian bar if we went in alone unaccompanied by a female? I'm guessing that we'd find a pretty hostile environment in many such places.

No, FONDL....the whole point of a stripclub is to provide a fun place for ANYONE who enjoys naked or topless women, not just straight men.

You're comparison of you going to a lesbian bar is comparing apples to oranges in this case. There would be nothing for you in a lesbian bar. Obviously the clientele there have no interest in you. However....a gay woman going to a stripclub would be welcomed by the dancers just as a man would - with a big dollar sign over her head. In a gay (or straight) bar, you are comingling with other patrons. At a SC, you are there to mingle with the ladies, not other PL's.

Right on Lopaw! My wife likes to go with me to the strip clubs. She also has a good female friend who lives cross country. When they visit they will go together to see some naked women. It is a blast when we all go as a group. But when I'm not there I want my wife to be able to go and have a good time AND be treated well.

Hi lopaw,

How do arrive at the conclusion that the whole point of a stripclub is to provide a fun place for "ANYONE"? At the old Angels maximizing profits wasn't even the whole point. It was more like a hangout for people who shared common values that weren't standard issue from the media or government. Discrimination was more the rule than exception, but fortunately or not most people who wandered into Angels ended up leaving asap.

Your ideal of a stripclub maybe "to provide a fun place for ANYONE who enjoys naked or topless women," and you may get government to force that ideal down other people's throats. BTW, given how difficult it is in some area to open a small strip club that isn't too unreasonable at all. The old 2 wrongs make a right, dealy.

Anyway the prevailing view by a huge margin seems to be that government should dictate the "right" choices because they're the "right" choices. I'm probably one of the few, the proud, . . . oops, wrong story line. :) Anyway, I believe people should be free to discriminate based on race, national origin, religion, gender, disability, etc.

Lopaw, I'm curious, how common is it for strip clubs to exclude unattached women (eg. women unaccompanied by men)? I can't imagine most strip clubs excluding anyone that has money. But then again, I'm not sure I've ever seen an unattached woman in a club other than those who were either obvious off-duty dancers or close friends of a dancer.

But don't you agree that most strip clubs attempt to appeal PRIMARILY to heterosexual men? Seems to me that's their target customer group, and if they're well run they're going to do whatever they think will appeal to that group. They may inadvertantly attract other customers too, but they're still going to focus on the target group. Just like any other business would.

FONDL,
I think it's sort of a "chicken & egg" thing. If you open a business that features scantily clad ladies, by default your primary customer base is going to be straight men. Gay or bi women are such a small percentage of customers that it wouldn't make good business sense to market or advertise for our small customer base. And as in any business, all the owners ever really care about is people spending money in their establishment, regardless of gender,race,sexual orientation, etc.

As for the lone female in the SC....I have been doing it for years at many different clubs (I prefer going solo to SC's). I live on the west coast, and I firmly believe that the "no unescorted ladies in the club" is a product of region - you're more apt to have it happen in the south or midwest.I have even been to a few clubs in Vegas where I was told it occurs....I didn't have any problem getting in solo. I guess it was because I don't look like a hooker, an irate wife, or a drunken college sorority girl. And for the record, I certainly don't look like a man, either!

>>>"And as in any business, all the owners ever really care about is people spending money in their establishment, regardless of gender,race,sexual orientation, etc."<<<

Not really the case and it is disappointing that you believe that. Not only is there job discrimination there is customer discrimination. I'm not free to go to Solid Gold to see the male dancers. The dollar requires the force of law to prop it up to be the end all be all i.e. its all about the money. That is why for example there are anti-discrimination statutes as well as "stings" to *force* people to make money they would rather forego.

Even people who preach it is all about the money seem to be lacks in practicing it and if you think about it makes sense. Again and again people trade their all mighty dollars for junk that shouldn't be nearly as important e.g. giving money to charities or churches, buying designer label clothing or polished stones, buying presents, etc.

You may wish to see business owners as little profit driven minions, but like other consumers they routinely trade dollars for other interests. So if a business owner believes gays are evil then he is going to be eager to accept their dollars? Maybe or maybe not. Hell, a good portion of his earnings may go straight to the church. Is that generally a bright business decision if the dollar is the end all be all?

The last club that I frequented regularly had a separate room (a very nice room with it's own bar and stage) that they rented out for private parties - they did a ton of bachelor parties there. One night a week they opened the room to women and featured male dancers. I wonder if male customers were welcome? I seriously doubt it.

Years ago some of the secretaries where I worked used to go to another clubs regularly to see male strippers - the place featured male dancers once a week. I wonder if male customers were allowed in on these "ladies nights." I bet not.

We may all claim to be opposed to sexual discrimination, but I bet most of us practice it in our own personal lives. How many of us considered members of both sexes equally when choosing a mate? How many of you single people date both sexes with equal fervor? In fact the very idea probably seems pretty silly to most of us.

FONDL,
On the one occasion that I had the misfortune of attending a Chippendales show, there were in fact two gay male couples in attendance. Was this the exception rather than the rule? Perhaps. I don't know.

Yes, jablake - I view SC owners as "little profit driven minions". I don't give a shit where they send their profits - it's not my concern. All I ask of them is cold beer & warm pussy for my hard earned $$$. A fair trade if you ask me.

I often see couples (man and woman) or groups of girls or guys and girls in groups in strip clubs. In fact the other night I was sitting next to a couple of pretty girls sitting at the stage wearing pink t-shirts indicating they were under 21 so they couldn't be served alcohol. However that didn't stop one of the dancers from lifting their shirts up just a little bit. I enjoyed the view. At one nude club at the beach, I remember visiting one time and asked why there were so many girls in the club (I could tell they weren't dancers). Someone told me the girls were having a bachelorette party. Just one female customer in a strip club would seem very unusual to me.

I do remember one night I was sitting in a busy men's strip club and noticed I had all female customers sitting at all the tables around me. Now that does seem unusual. Since they looked good, I didn't mind though.

Response to Fondl: Fat or ugly female customers getting naked are still a very welcome diversion. Fat or ugly strippers are a completely different matter.

Fat or ugly female customers are unwelcome (by me) if they're doing ANYTHING in a club I'm visiting.

Seeing just one female custie in a club may be unusual for you to see, chandler, but it's "business as usual" for me. At the nude clubs I go to, I can guarantee that I will be the only lady in the place that isn't on the payroll. I must admit I kinda like it that way. At my divey topless clubs,tho, there are usually a few couples sitting around,especially on the weekends.

To date, in the 7 years I've been clubbing, I have had only 2 negative encounters with male customers, and that was a long while ago. On the contrary...most guys are very nice & friendly. Even when they're sober!

LOL Raincoat! True dat.

Oops - meant casualguy.
Where's the damn edit button?

Lopaw, I'm guessing that you are very attractive, and as I said before I think that makes a difference in how welcome a woman is likely to be in a club. You also raise an interesting point - are women more likely to be found in topless places vs. nude ones? As I think about where I've seen female customers (who were usually with men) most frequently, the answer is definately yes. But that may be because the topless places are often a little nicer.

I'm kind of disappointed. I emailed the clubber who wrote that review on XXXTasy Ranch and advised her of this topic I started. I was hoping she could have filled us in on more details of that fateful evening. Evidently, she hasn't checked her email or doesn't want to partake. Oh well....

Bones, I think you started a very interesting topic here and I hope my initial response didn't annoy you. I've actually been thinking about this one quite a bit and I've probably changed my mind on it about a half dozen times. I've finally concluded that I don't know how I feel about this topic, I can sympathize with both sides of the issue (which is kinda common for me.)

I'm glad we have some ladies here who were willing to give us their perspective. Once again this discussion has illustrated why I enjoy this board, we seem to be able to disagree without being disagreeable, which is becoming pretty rare in our society. Thanks for raising a thought-provoking issue.