What is a fair OTC price anyways?
This was about to be a response in another thread. But my post ended up being more long and off topic than I intended and I decided to make a new thread for it.For those who read reddit, this should be taken like an r/changemyview entry. I’m stating an unpopular opinion for the sole purpose of sparking discussion.
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Someone said: “Others will be happy to meet you, for some insane amount ($500, 750 1000!) thinking you are (and in your case you really are) a rube and won't have game to call bullshit and negotiate the down to $300-$400 or less.”
My counter question is, what about dancers who just simply refuse to budge under what TUSCL thinks is an “insane” amount? And can’t be negotiated with no matter how much bullshit you call?
A song is, on average, 3.5 minutes. And dances are $20/ song. 60 divided by 3.5 times 20 equals ~$343 hourly in floor dances.
Anybody with any sort of basic pride in her job imo should be starting at $500 bare minimum and not setting it up to make lapdances look like a rip off.
Though depending on VIP/dance prices, one should be sensitive to that as well so the base price may well be even higher.
Of course, dancers can be notoriously bad with money for whatever reason, which sets it up so that many customers can enjoy their $150-$400. OTC no problem.
So...I acknowledge it doesn’t matter what my opinion is, since the reality is many customers are getting that anyways. Both ITC and OTC.
BUT on the other hand I believe that a dancer who wants more isn’t being “entitled” or a “shark” She just has enough integrity to make extras...well, extra.
I’ve also heard arguments that OTC rates should also be measured against the escort market in an area. So I’ll address that too.
One time I got bored and curious and looked up escorts in the Austin area. Especially the ones mixed raced and with a body somewhat similar to my own, and realized I’d probably be in the $320-$350/hr territory class of an escort. And if I was an escort, that is what I’d charge too.
BUT escorts also don’t have to sit and chit chat for customers before securing payment. Not have to drink so much on the job. And escorts generally screen clients and can better ensure their safety. And can mostly work for themselves and not deal with club politics bullshit. And from what I’ve heard second hand from multiple sources, escort clientele are way less obnoxious than club patrons.
But strippers aren’t escorts, and DO put up with more shit to be available to somebody who wants the convenience of walking into a bar and getting a fantasy experience of either picking up a chick at a bar, or a “connection” of sorts before sealing the deal. As opposed to perhaps the more procedural way an escort would go about it. Which factors into fair costs.
Thoughts?
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I do agree with most of the rest of your thoughts but in the end, this is basic economics. ITC and OTC are worth what the PL is willing to pay. A dancer has any right to charge whatever she feels is the correct compensation, but that will never mean that the PL does not feel she is charging to much for what she offers or that he will be willing to pay more for what he can get elsewhere for less.
Men are funny creatures they will pay more money in a club or getting an escort than they will getting a stripper out of the club.
Everything you’ve stated make sense but a person is gonna do what they feel like doing.
Also for OTC the PL has to pay for the room (usually) which adds to his total out-of-pocket expense. When seeing a gal incall the room has already been paid for.
That being said, even the high-end escorts will give you a reduced price for multiple hours.
If you were to consider OTC, why not go for the high-end market. You might not get as much OTC business but that business may be more rewarding.
It’s supply and demand like anything else we do in life. You have to set your price at a point that the amount of business you get meets your financial goals.
In the club scenario let's say for discussion I'm paying $10/song (roughly $200/hour) for the dance plus a fully stocked bar, music by a live DJ, wait staff/bartender, bouncer, and a variety of dancers being there for me to choose from. If you consider a VIP at, let's say hypothetically $250/30 minutes - so $500/hour for one-on-one private time with the dancer of choice, all those external amenities are still part of the experience, so it's not the same as OTC for $500/hour unless if the dancer is providing her own music, drinks, and bringing a couple of hot friends for "warm up" time.
As previously noted, there's also the reality that in practice a dancer isn't making her highest possible income 100% of a shift. The best hustlers can struggle to sell dances when the club is slow, much less VIPs. And even in a packed club with a bunch of free spenders, it takes time to approach a new customer, make conversation/share drinks, and close a sale.
As for screening, in effect this is a mutual process between dancers and customers by meeting ITC. Thus many dancers only offer OTC after one or more ITC meetings - and countless more use that line as a hustle to keep a PL coming back and spending, with no intention of OTC ever actually happening.
To get back to the root of the OP's question, ultimately you have to balance what you think is a fair price for your level of quality and services with what the market demand will support. I once knew a dancer that had decided her price was $1000/hour, and stood firm on that number in part because of similar, flawed arithmetic relative to the price of a VIP at her club. There were times she would finish a "good" shift with a net profit well under $500, but somehow she felt entitled to much more OTC. If she had just been willing to accept something more reasonable (but still above "market rate") she could have made much more money, but as it was she was left struggling between rare occasions when someone was rich (or foolish) enough to meet her asking price.
@spice is thinking the way a typical dancer would think - which is what she is, a dancer - custies are not gonna think like dancers thus will not view things the same way.
At the end of the day things work themselves out and there are dancers that view the OTC going-rate as worth it to them and some that see it as some kinda premium-service requiring a premium-price; whereas for experienced OTCers they see it mostly an extension of the ITC experience.
🙂
If a small 1-lb bag of rice is $3; one can extrapolate that a 20# bag should then be $60
So... there's that. But here's some other points to consider.
I've said before that the big differences between a well-reviewed escort and a stripper is that escorts are generally (a) on time, (b) more reliable about what they offer, (c) better at communicating, and (d) better about knowing their market worth. Meaning, they're literally more professional.
So, if you look at escorts in the Boston market, the better-looking escorts start at about $400 / hour. $500 to $600 / hour is not uncommon. And it goes up from there.
But a lot of guys here don't like escorts because they are too transactional and too business-like. They also don't like paying a premium for the predictability. Also, the better escorts tend to require *a lot* of personal screening data before seeing you.
Dancers, on the other hand, make a lot of decisions on the fly (and sometimes out of pure desperation) and seem to be willing to take less money in exchange for an immediate influx of cash.
Ultimately, dancers do charge less than the going rate for comparable escorts, but I also think that some of the low price claims made here are fanciful.
Of course, everything above is broad brush srrokes. Exceptions abound.
Many good points by many good posters here but for my favorites it is not either/or as you think Nicespice...it can be income to the dancer for both...
All about timing!
I couldn't agree more nice. If you can reliably make $300+ per hour ITC on a consistent basis, then why would you entertain OTC offers at all? Shit, you'd probably be one of the top earning strippers in the country with no real motivation to have sex for money at almost any price, unless some guy truly lost his mind.
Of course we know that this is not realistic and that LDs and VIPs are often very difficult to sell. So comparing unsold dances at a mostly un-achievable 100% utilization to bird-in-the hand OTC money is an apples to oranges comparison.
But with all of that said, I'll never tell a girl what her time or body is worth. All I can tell her is what I'm willing to pay. Either it's worthwhile to her or its not. And if enough hot girls turn down my offer, then the market has spoken and I know that I may need to raise it. If enough hot girls find the amount amendable, then I know I'm at the right spot for me.
->“Men are funny creatures they will pay more money in a club or getting an escort than they will getting a stripper out of the club.”
That is a very good point I haven’t thought of. I guess those bottles of champage really are enticing at the time 😂
Also good point about perception of OTC as inherently part of the experience vs a premium service. That probably is the main thing. For me, I would lump it into the second category. Also relates to why I don’t care if $343/hr is unrealistic. It’s like asking for a discount on a Louis Vuitton bag because I’m not selling enough Fossil purses or something.
Also my want for consistency has before also affected me in the opposite direction as well. In a club where total out of pocket expenses for the customer for vip could range from $550[cheaper area, half hour]-$1550[hour, nicest area] If the customer was funding it all with a credit card, tack on 20% on top of that. And yet there were signs in the dressing room that dances were only supposed to be $20 and upcharging wasn’t allowed. I didn’t even want to try selling vip because I knew damn well I would only be willing to slightly increase mileage and I felt like I was ripping off the customer that way. This is despite this is a no-extras club and everything is see through anyways.
I think other dancers at least subconsciously felt similarly and handled it by only shooting for vip sales and avoiding single dances because in that club the mo of dancers is to line up along the bar area and couches and just stare at the entrance waiting a high roller to come in and descend. Heck one time, a customer tipped me to go grab another dancer. So I did it, and she looked over at him, and rolled her eyes and didnt say a word, and stood still because because she had already profiled him as not worth it.
I guess that’s one useful thing about alcohol. It temporarily drowns away a lot of stuff that I can’t handle as not making any freakin sense. 😅
Well, then it goes one of two ways for them - either they are able to sell those VIPs consistently enough to earn good money or they aren't.
Those who can pull off those sales consistently will likely be poor OTC targets because they are already doing well-enough ITC that they are not tempted by $$$ for sex. Awesome - I wish them nothing but continued success.
Those who struggle to sell high priced experiences likely won't last long in that club. One can only live so long under "feast or famine" conditions before one is forced to go elsewhere.
Now I'll agree that a club that tries to sell at those prices may be creating an atmosphere where unrealistic expectations are common, which in turn may make it a poor hunting ground for OTC. So I'll just go to the club down the street and offer it to the girls who have already left the unrealistic club and have since had a reality adjustment. I'm sure that I'll also see most of the dancers from the unrealistic club elsewhere once they get churned out.
And this same point can perhaps also apply to dancers - i.e. a dancer not into OTC may see it as worth it only if it's $500 to $1K+ - whereas a dancer "more into OTC", for lack of a better-word, getting $200 to $300, or maybe $400, somewhat consistently in addition to her ITC $$$, is attractive to her.
Girls who are earning more than they need to support their lifestyles solely through ITC efforts are very poor OTC targets. However, since they do have the ability to keep plugging away ITC if all else fails, cash needs alone are not necessarily going to make a girl jump at an offer of p4p from any guy who makes her uncomfortable.
Also, the odds are good that a girl who is seriously open to OTC for $1k will be open to it for less so long as the offer is reasonable and the need and comfort elements are there. Conversely, a girl who is adamantly opposed to selling sex is unlikely to do so regardless of her need or the incremental money difference - she'd rather starve or go to a food bank than "compromise her morals." But of course dancing has a way of loosening those "morals" over time, lol.
The private session would typically be 2 to 2 1/2 hours. As she said the money she made in one OTC meet up covered all her various tip out charges and started her day off in the black. Two made her enough to cover bills. Anything she made in the club was basically then all hers.
Luckily for me her prices were well in line what I am willing to pay for OTC.
I have found that most dancers want to charge slightly higher than a highly attractive escort in that city, which is typically $500 to $750 an hour where I live, even if she is no where near that escort's quality.
Honestly maybe if I was absolutely crazy about a girl that I just thought was beautiful thing ever. Rare but it does happen.
(Psssst Nice can we hold hands at the fair tonight for $4,000???
Oh God I’m desperate and lonely!!!!!!!!!!😩)
I take this into account when asking them on a date. Weekdays only. I think I’m a charming dude but I even know I can’t fuck with that Friday night money.
I wouldn't sweat it if I were you. When I first moved down here from the northeast, I was overpaying too. Consider it tuition until you get a better handle on your local market. But you'll never learn if you avoid going to school because the clubs are the only place where you can figure it out. Guys don't generally like to share granular details of what they spend for p4p on open forums or even privately.
What do I think is a fair price for OTC P4P? Personally I think a girl quoting me $500/hr is fair. In her mind, I'm guessing she's missing the opportunity cost of $300/hr plus she's adding in sex.
I've personally been quoted anywhere from $250/hr to $1200/hr, but the most common quotes are $300-500. It depends on the girl, the day, and many other variables.
Other times, they're leaving the club with you and going directly to a hotel.
It's inexact.
But, for the rest of these guys, I agree with the previous sentiment. nice, it's almost painful to watch you go through backbends trying to logic this out with comparisons to lapdances and escorts (why not throw in SB PPM? Out of everything else in the sex industry, OTC is closest to a date with a SB who is still on PPM, whereas it does not resemble anything ITC and only marginally an escort). OTC price is OTC price, there's no reason to base price it on any other service.
TLDR, but did read @nicespice's post.
^"A song is, on average, 3.5 minutes. And dances are $20/ song. 60 divided by 3.5 times 20 equals ~$343 hourly in floor dances. "
1. No way dancers are fully booked. And the prices/song length varies but I can accept that as averages (but song lengths are typically shorter)
2. Most dancers aren't asian and may calculate that to be $75/hr.
If you were getting OTC where strippers were using an escorting-type model -- which is what the above indicates -- then you get the worst of all worlds: escort economics with stripper hustle & flakiness. No wonder you didn't like it. What you described is a non-starter for me. If you're going to do OTC, and deal with stripper flakiness, at least make sure you get the upside!
What surprised me most about this comment was the "mostly incall" at the end. It was weird simply because most strippers don't have private places to take guys because they have kids and/or SOs waiting for them. This sounded more a comment I'd see on USASG from a guy responding to escort ads than fun with strippers with local residences. In 90+% of the cases I deal with, strippers need me to host somewhere, which works just fine for me.
As far as the rest, I kinda' agree with Subraman to an extent. I don't seek the type of date night that he does, but I'm not usually explicitly negotiating some hourly rate. Again this sounds like someone from USASG rather than someone who took strippers OTC.
The most I ever pod was $750 (before tax) but that OTC involves two girls so it was really only $375 per girl.
I think the few other OTC experiences each set me back about $300 a$350. In each case I opted for premium cuts.
I would never go OTC with a skank.
I marvel at guys who shell out megabucks for OTC desploogination services. Remember Eliot Spitzer, former New York attorney general busted in a prostitution scandal (https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffpost.… )? He shelled out several thousand dollars for OTC.
While I could afford to do the same, I would never consider it. How can any woman be worth that much?
Even if she was that incredibly hot to justify a four digit fee per hour, how would you get your money’s worth? If she was THAT hot I probably wouldn’t last more than 60 - 90 seconds with her!
How will you use all the extra time?
Can you rent a high prices spread on a minute to minute basis or is one hour the minimum rental period?
If one hour is the minimum rental period, can you sublease?
If you could sublease you might even be able to run some trains on her and turn a small profit!
Good counter-point - if the girl wants to charge $500/hour, does that mean if I I'm done at ~10-minutes then I should just pay ~$80?
Run a train on her make a profit lol
Guessing he paid that ridiculous amount to keep everyone quiet.
Clearly he did not get that portion of what he paid for!
outcall... is where she comes to my place.
First, what is going to happen? There are different types of OTC experiences and the price varies by what you want. I would categorize these as: 1) "just sex", 2) "club-like experience" and 3) "date night". The first category is self-explanatory - girl comes to your place and you get right down to business. Everything is over in less than an hour. The second experience is when the girl comes to your place and there is some stripping and lap dancing, en route to the sex. In this case, you get the aura of being in a club - music, sexy clothing, and gradual elevation in contact level (yes, pun intended). Finally, there are the girls that will go to dinner, dancing, or even join you at a strip club before ending up at your place.
The second factor, and a major one, is who you are meeting. Attractiveness and personality are quantifiable attributes. There are girls I would pay a lot of money to meet OTC. Others not so much. Here are a range of rates I've had offered to me: Solid 7 Cuban girl with minimal English skills - only interested in category 1 above because she would not by any fun in categories 2 or 3 - $250 for one hour. Turned her down. Club experience - 2 eastern European girls for two hours for $1000 total ($500 apiece for the mathematically challenged). One was a 7 and one an 8. They brought sexy lingerie, did some dancing and touching of each other for my viewing pleasure, then some lap dances in various stages of undress, then on to the bed. Finally, have an offer on the table for an evening that starts with dinner, then on to a nightclub, then spend the entire night. Base price was $1000 and the list of things she was willing to do was extensive. A few had upcharges, but she was very clear up front what those would be if I wanted to go there. They weren't my thing.
At the end of the day, the price you should pay comes down to how memorable you want the experience to be. $300-500 should get you basic service from a decent looking girl. $1000-1500 should get you a night to remember with the girl of your dreams (unless you have frequent nightmares - that costs a lot less). For $2000 you can get your favorite porn star. The good thing for me is that my ideal girl is different from many other guys. I'm not into the blonde Barbie look with enhanced tits and Goddess complex. I prefer a brunette with natural body and no tats. And if her eyes are blue, I am willing to pay way more.
Perhaps we're having different experiences because you accept the "just sex costs more than date night" right from the beginning, and explicitly approach the proposal and negotiation with that in mind? I never do. "Will you see me OTC? Yes? Awesome! $300? Oh, $350? Deal. ... Oh, let's hit dinner in Hayes Valley and do some barhopping first, cool? Cool!" Any stripper who is not a high volume escort-like girl, just wants her price. I don't ask her to charge me more because we're going to dinner and drinks first, I just throw that in after we're done. We'll drink, go back to the room, have sex, and if she's too drunk to go home she'll crash all night; that's still the $350 we agreed upon. I'll probably tip her for extraordinary service.
I would imagine you get that type of experience b/c I assume said-dancer you already have cultivated as an ITC-fave for a while and are a regular of hers thus giving you a good-amount of leverage for her to agree to pretty-much everything you propose I assume for her not to lose a regular - it is also my understanding from your previous posts that you hit slow-dayshifts where I'd assume $$$ is tighter for dancers to where they may be less apt to pass up decent business let-alone regulars' business.
It appears to me it's more difficult for the avg PL that has not employed the patented Subra-method - e.g. a cold OTC setup, maybe the first time you meet her (or second); and/or a nigthshift girl in a good $$$-making club where she makes good $$$ ITC and thus she can more readily hold-out for a good-offer vs a decent-offer.
From the dancers I've spoken w/ that know you they tell me they like hanging out w/ you mainly b/c of your 11" - but if you say it's b/c of your gentlemanly skills, then maybe that helps too
Women who foodie call are more likely to score high in the "dark triad" of machiavellianism - narcissism - psychopathy. Describe anyone you know? All I know is, all my ATFs and most of my CFs were always thrilled to accept an unpaid lunch & drinks before their shift, or dinner & drinks after... science!
Some even free and flat out refused the money. Given one I paid before. The recent number collection was because I went against Lil Wayne’s wise words... “can’t treat these hoes like ladies”. I rather do ITC and keep it low. But paying for VIP is a b.
I believe I saw you post about this before, I could be wrong. If so, I just want to stop by to hang with you. To buy a drink and chat. Your insight is pretty impressive.
I should have added a third category - location. Florida is cheaper than most places because of the large number of clubs and dancers willing to do OTC. The basic fact is that the Cuban girls have driven the prices way down. You can go to Diamond Dolls and get 2 Cuban girls to meet you OTC for $300. But that is not the norm.
Happy clubbing my friend.