Seems dancers lack the concept of time - money concept. I have seen girls spend 45 min talking...flirting...touching these guys who have no plans of going for a dance or even tip. I must say it is also jealousy, but it makes no sense. Has anyone else notice this? As you can see I have a lot of freetome to waste in clubs. To those guys who do this; what do you talk about and how do you keep saying no?
How do you know these guys "have no plans of going for a dance or even tip"? You should share your knowledge with the dancers because they would be happy to stop wasting their time.
Dancers are not the best business women a lot of the time. There seems to be a problem focusing on the idea of making money. I have watched dancers make nothing at all for a whole night because they were not in the mood so just got guys to buy em drinks and end up hammered and broke. I have also watched girls waste their time on the broke cute guys. There are other times where they spend their whole night with a customer who usually pays well but is broke that night in hopes that the next time they show up they will take care of them. The plain truth is there are very few girls who really know how to make money but as a DJ in the industry I salute the few.
A dancer will hang around with a guy because: (1)she thinks he's cute; (2) he's a drug supplier;(3) she will meet her drink quota, even if he doesn't buy dances;(4) she's lazy and lonely and just wants some company;(5) he's a regular temporarily cash short.
Im confused. What makes you think she's not getting something out of this guy? Just because someone doesnt get a dance doesnt mean they arent spending money. Some guys will hand out money at the table without getting a dance, just like I've given really good regulars dance advances, meaning Ive given them dances and then let them pay me for them the next time they come in or their next paycheck.
They probably talk to them because they know they eventually will get a dance. It might take til the next visit, but eventually, they do buy dances from the people they sit around and talk with.
My current ATF is a lot like OhioVoyeur's ex-ATF. She has a tendency to go to whatever cute young guy happens to be in the club at the time (and if he has his girlfriend with him, it just indulges her bisexuality). But the thing is, I hardly ever see any of these young kids buy dances. She once complained that the only people who ever bought dances were older gentlemen. Not to be rude, but in general, at least there, a large portion of the customer base is older gentlemen. Younger people, by and large, go there to drink with their buddies and see naked chicks, in that order.
"Just because someone doesn't get a dance doesn't mean they aren't spending money."
And, obviously, it doesn't mean they ARE spending money either, correct? Just because it applies to you, or any one person, doesn't mean it applies to everyone.
Yes, some girls get paid to sit with guys. But I suspect that in the grand scheme of things, the majority of strippers sit with guys for reasons other than they are getting paid. As others have implied, chances are that most strippers do the same as most employees on the planet would do if given the opportunity. They sit around and socialize because it's easier than getting off their asses and working.
It's difficult to start a conversation with a new guy. Especially if he's a stranger. Especially if he's not attractive. Also, as others have said, strippers aren't necessarily good businesswomen. Which means that they may not have the ambition necessary to actually work and do a good job. Y'know, like the common perception of government employees. Put in your time and collect your paycheck.
Also, for most women, what strippers do is probably not the most honorable and desirable work, so there's probably a fairly strong conscious or subconscious desire to not even be there.
Now I'm sure there are some exceptions, and I'm sure we'll hear from one or two strippers who think that since THEY aren't that way then that means strippers in general aren't that way. But I tend to believe that strippers are, in many ways, like most other women on the planet. Though maybe they're more likely to have a few more 'issues' than most women.
And yes, I see it all the time. Virtually every time I go into a club. Was in a club yesterday. Two decent looking girls out of 6, both sitting in the laps of some old guys who weren't getting dances. Yeah, they could have been handing the girls money under the table, but I doubt it. This is a low end club in a low end area where there aren't a lot of big spenders.
There were about 12 guys in the club, nobody on stage, no girls circulating, 2 decent girls sitting in guys' laps for maybe 45 minutes, the rest of the girls in the dressing room.
Now, let's do the math. Is it a case of honorable, well intentioned, hard working girls doing their best, or a bunch of girls who really didn't want to be there passing up an opportunity to make some money off of 12 bored guys who were waiting to be entertained?
I left after an hour, due to severe boredom. I had $120 in my pocket when I left, that I expected I'd be spending on lap dances. The bottom line: incompetent management, and girls who didn't want to work.
TO STILETTO...
I have a regular who sits with me most of the night. When she does her "rounds" I tend to watch. She really turns on all her flirt and gets close and personal. Most of the time it's for nothing. She comes back complaining. I also observe other dancers doing the same but for longer periods of time. I see that no money passes hands...I just don't see the reason for the time investment! Oh, I do pay her very well for her time with me. As well as many 5-10 lapdance sets and VIP. She makes out well.
"Yes, some girls get paid to sit with guys. But I suspect that in the grand scheme of things, the majority of strippers sit with guys for reasons other than they are getting paid. As others have implied, chances are that most strippers do the same as most employees on the planet would do if given the opportunity. They sit around and socialize because it's easier than getting off their asses and working."
Your continued attempts to compare these girls to "employees" isn't any less stupid just because you keep repeating it. They pay to be there, whether they earn any money or not.
You also have no clue why a given girl is sitting with a guy for an extended timeframe. However, since they have to pay a house fee and tip-outs regardless of how much they make and still have to earn enough to pay bills on top of that, there would be an awful lot of hungry strippers out there if they were really goofing off as much as you suppose. Just because you don't understand the dynamics doesn't mean that they aren't getting paid.
All of this girly whining, from multiple posters, about being ignored are really getting old.
Rick, is it really THAT difficult for you to back up your point with any sort of facts or logic? You act like you're such an expert in strip clubs, but you have absolutely nothing to back up your points, other than "oh you just don't understand".
Okay, here, let me help you...
Let's say that a stripper has to pay something like, I dunno, $50 to dance a shift ("tipout" or "house fee" or whatever). We can argue forever what the number is, but I'm sure it varies by club, and shift, and a bunch of other stuff. But for argument let's start with $50.
And let's assume that the club takes $10 of every $20 lapdance. Again, we can argue, but let's just assume for now.
So that means she has to either do 5 dances in an 8 hour shift to start making money, or maybe 1 VIP.
Now, in California the minimum wage is $8 per hour. Yes, I know that strippers are NOT employees, but just for comparison. For a stripper at the end of her shift to make minimum wage means she needs to do less than 1 lapdance per hour (actually 5/8 of a dance) to cover the tipout, and 1 dance per hour to make minimum wage. So let's say two lap dances per hour.
And a lapdance lasts, what, 3 minutes? Which means 6 minutes of her time per hour to make the same that she'd make working at MacDonalds.
Hmmm......
Now, if she's a hard working independent contractor, she could make three times what she'd make at MacDonalds by spending 12 minutes per hour doing lapdances.
So she can sit on some guys lap, get paid NOTHING, goofing off for 45 minutes each hour, and make 3 times what she'd make at MacDonalds, as long as she spends just 15 minutes each hour doing laps.
SHE DOESN'T NEED to have guys slipping her $100 bills to make more than most of her friends. She can goof off most of her shift and still make a lot more than most people make. And I contend that's what most dancers choose to do. You contend that most or all strippers that sit with guys get paid for their time. No data or logic to support that, just your statements that it's true.
Dude, just TRY to make a rational point. It's not that hard. You're an expert, right?
@DJWTF. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey.....hey. Just because a guy is broke but "cute" (handsome is the word my friend), you shouldn't blame him for being better looking than you. Most likely that same "cute", suave looking guy is getting the better deal than everyone else who is paying simply for a dance (free pussy guys)
This argument again guys. COME ON. Not cool bro. Can't just let it be can ya jerikson, rick?
@VH_Kicks FINALLY somebody gets it. If we wanted to bother talking to women, we'd go to a regular club (or just hit the streets and start flirting with cuties).
The point is, jerikson, you dont always KNOW who is and who is not spending money. Thats why, in a general "Why do dancers sit with deadbeats" thread, I gave the answer I did.
TO BERGE....(Btw, I would have seen you post whether you shouted my name or not)
You dont always know who is and who is not spending. Your regular girl is one you do know about, however, you wrote a generalized thread wondering about why dancers spend time with deadbeats ....well, not everyone is and many times, money is still exchanged for time. I know this cant be news to you
Of course it's not. Nor is it the point. What we are talking about is what are called 'generalities'. Statements that are generally true. Not always true, but more often than not. Stuff that is true a majority if the time.
And what is a majority? Well, in elections it's 51% or more. Which means that if 500,001 people out of a total electorate of 1,000,000 vote for a candidate, he wins. It also means that 499,999 are pissed.
The point is that, in general, more strippers sit around on their asses because they don't want to work than those who actively work. And, in general, the girls spending lots of time on some guys lap are probably not getting paid for it, but rather socializing, because it's easier.
Do you have any data to refute that? Other than, "oh, I'm not like that".
We don't "know" Stilletto, but I personally know that strippers sometimes sit with me for longer periods of time and no money ever changes hands. I'm not a deadbeat, I usually just don't have any interest in that particular dancer. We discussed this recently in another thread about trying to get rid of them.
jerikson, you are both so fundamentally ignorant about how club dynamics and dancer interactions work and so emotionally invested in the belief that these girls are doing the wrong thing by ignoring you that it is impossible to make any point stick with you.
"Of course it's not. Nor is it the point. What we are talking about is what are called 'generalities'. Statements that are generally true. Not always true, but more often than not. Stuff that is true a majority if the time."
These "generalities" are based upon a bunch of asinine and, in my experience, largely inaccurate assumptions. You've been told, time and again now, why dancers "goof off' with certain customers. It is because they are getting paid, one way or another. And stop with those stupid McDonalds comparisons already - most of those dancers leave the club with FAR more than what a minimum wager makes. The dancers that I deal with generally view leaving the club with less than $200 (after tipouts and house fees) to be a bad night.
So why do they sit with those bigger spenders when you are desperately trying to get their attention for your 3 LDs? Why can't a dancer just get up and go over to you, give you those dances, and then go back to the bigger fish? Because she is afraid of pissing him off and/or that another girl will scoop him up, thereby losing his money altogether. Also, if he is an established "regular" who comes in repeatedly just to see her, she also risks losing future income from him.
jerikson40, you can't prove that the guys aren't spending money on the girl at some point that makes it worth it for her to spend time with them.
I do concede It's also not easy to prove the other side, that they ARE spending money - we can't say that for 100% certain either. But it makes complete logical sense that they ARE spending money. If the girls were NOT getting money and really just messing around this much, that would be a really dumb decision on their part. Most of the girls I know are really money hungry when in the club and will go after the big spenders. Do you really think a girl is going to waste time sitting with someone if they're getting nothing for it at all? The only exception I can see are really rare cases where the girl is attracted to the guy and actually want to spend time with him, or the club is just not busy at all and she's already asked the other guys in the club if they want a dance.
Other than that, you are trying to prove that the guys aren't spending money. Until you can prove that, you really don't have any argument.
@gsv: They ARE spending money, one way or another. It is just not as obvious as when a guy takes a girl back for a few LDs after talking to her for 5 minutes. It could be discreet tipping for time, pre or post CR/VIP room, OTC, etc., but most of them are getting paid somehow or else they wouldn't be sitting there.
@jerikson, I don't mean to come off as harsh or a know-it-all as I am neither, but I might have been a little impatient with you. I've been where you are now, very much enjoying the club scene but having the best girls monopolized by other guys.
It took me a long time, and ever increasing spending, before the picture of what was happening became clearer, thanks in no small part to dancers themselves educating me about the facts of life in a SC. ;) Before that, I used to sit there and think the same things that you did. I cut my teeth in this thing many years ago in clubs in NYC and Boston, of all places, and I constantly had to take a back seat to guys with corporate expense accounts and others with very deep pockets.
A lot of things happened since then. First, I learned to avoid those clubs that cater to high spending execs. Second, my income has gone up a lot and so has my spending. Third, the economy has been in a prolonged slump now, making what used to be considered decent spending worth a whole lot more. The combination of all of these things has now moved my relative value to certain girls in certain clubs up a whole lot, so I continue to see this more from the other side of the fence now.
Anyway, just my thoughts for whatever they are worth.
I'm sorry Stiletto I must disagree with you this time. While you may see it your way that is not my observation. Many dancers sit with what I call the "diaper boys". These are guys barely old enough to be in the club much less have money to spend. The girls are spending time with them because they are close to their age. Many time I see the boys drinking and not buying even drinks for the girls much less tips and dances. I have confirmed this with other dancers that will not sit and stay with them as they have no money. This always tends to be the younger inexperienced dancers. Many times you can tell when a patron is spending on a dancer or is her regular and I never begrudge a girl sure money. The bottom line is they don't work for you and if they sit and collect no tips that is their loss.
rick, yup I am sure they are spending money. I only said I really can't prove it as I don't always see it happening, but it logically makes sense that they are paying the girls something for the time, else the girls would move on to another guy.
Perhaps these seeming "Deadbeats" are good at double talk if they AREN'T paying for the time.
I try to avoid starting something with really young women as they are VERY emotionally and intellectually IMMATURE!!! All the ATFs I have had have been north of, 26 yrs of age. Two of them late 30's.They understand the business more than the very young 20 somethings or teenagers.
You guys complaining about the lack of time you get with your chosen Hottie. Try bringing a lot more than $100 to $120 with you. After all you all seem to believe that $$$$ talks.
I think you should run for President jerikson40, better chance of making the country work your way. LOL
I have to agree that the dynamic in the club is complicated and you can't possibly know all of the circumstances. A girl my know that one of the other dancers made big money off of this guy last month, so she is putting time with him for a future score. She may know that a young guy is broke today but he usually blows a couple of hundred on payday.
Regulars have different habits, maybe they spend couple of thousand one night and then drop by after work for an hour and couple of drinks.
There were times I would receive a text, stop on my way home from work, sit for an hour and just leave some cash before I left. No dances or VIP.
Also, some girls are OK, with hanging out because they know a regular is coming later and they are guarenteed a decent night. They are just killing time with their friends. You all know a girl can score money quick when a regular arrives.
God do I feel stupid. I just came from a club where one of the ddancers spent ONE HOUR talking to me. I was waiting for my ATF to finish with one of her regulars and got started in a very interesting conversation with one of the other dancers. I had no plans on tipping her or asking for a dance, she had no desire to ask me for one. We talked for over an hour, it was a very enlightening conversation. I asked her why she gave up making money for that time?I got a very flattering answer. She said that having anintelligent conversation with a customer was so rare she just loved the talk and the company. It was worth the time and income loss just to talk to me! So now how can I figure where this goes in my original question? I can't...she did it on her own dime. (I think it's over a quarter now!)She flattered me beyond what I would ever expect. I guess if someone was watching they would think she was wasting her time...but her quest for some rare intellectual conversation was her motive. She left to see her regular before I could tip her.When I caught up with her later, she refused the money! OK go figure?
@berge:Good for you man.Once in awhile they just need/want a gentleman who can entertain,inform,amuse.I had a woman (not a dancer) tell me "make a woman laugh,impress her with your intelligence and her panties are half way off."
I'm thinking that a couple of things might be happening. First, the girl has a nightly goal and once it's reached, she likes to sit around, drink and relax. Second, the girl may have an OTC relationship with these "non-spenders", and while she makes little in the club (that must be shared with the club) she will get a lot more after work.
berge1 - good for you, that's especially amazing that she refused the money. It's true that sometimes dancers need a break, and an intelligent conversation can work well for that.
well hot dog, that is incredible. The stripper willingly allowing herself to lose income just because you gave intelligent conversation. That's good quality in a woman period. I guess that's one answer to your question, probably the only answer you need.
@tiredtraveler Its funny that you say that. I don't know whehre you live, but if you come to NY the roles are extremely reversed. Us "diaper boys" usually are the ones that get flocked upon first with the dancers and if I'm anything to go by, when we come in, we actually have dough to spend on them. But you forget that your genneratioin is different from ours. From my experience, we would NEVER buy a girl a drink,becausse we are taught not everyone should be treated equal. Me especially, why should I buy you a drink and I don't even know you? That's like one of those desperate guys who will resort to buying a girl he likes flowers and candy before she gets a chance to know him. To us, that's lame (hopefully that makes sense). We would only tip at the stage and maybe the dance (the dance is more private so that's debatable) because we do like to peacock and buying a lady a drink is not a good show of it. This is how I see us "diaper boys" and iit vastly differs fronm your generation's own ideology of what to do at a club and I'm ok with that. I don't know you, so why should I buy you a drink. Why tip if I'm gonna pay you either way (especially if you're being paid in large quantities).
Though on another hand, I can't deny that we won't just talk up a girl without a dance, it probably does happen. Maybe where you guys go its a problem, but the places I've been to, they're usually gonna bang that chick by the end of the night. But in that particular point, I don't see too much of the chatter box "diaper boys".
great thread.
Agree with the comments - especially - DJWTF, superdude, Stilleto, berge.
I've had this problem too. I spot a hottie who I want a dance from - and she just sits with a customer. Forever ! No dances, just lounging. But all the reasons stated above are happening - even when I see no dancing.
I solved the problem this way: I tell my waitress to go tell the dancer that I'd like some company. Or - when I feel like - I walk up to her - kneel down and say this "Hi I'm Roger - I'd like your company and I'm sitting over there. Whenever you're done here. No rush."
Most of the times it works.
A couple of times the dancer continued to sit with customer.
But a few times - the dancer started her walks and sat with nearly everyone around me, but me - some accepting, some declining.
Need a good dose of humility once in a while !!!
(BTW - the girl in the photo did that. Instead of getting pissed - I became even more mellow in my request. She was surprised and finally danced. Lee said - "I knew you wanted me - and I wanted to make myself hard to get. Besides, I'm just another dancer in your long line up.")
"@jerikson- Data???? Wtf are you talking about? You want me to go do a survey of the girls in the locker room?"
Oh, I thought your statements were based on some knowledge of what the other girls do. I guess not.
If you expect people to believe you (if you even care), then maybe something besides "This is true because I say it's true" would be good. Otherwise, accept that maybe you could be wrong, and don't dig your heels in, like some people do.
"And how do you know you are right about the majority? Do you have data?"
I gave a whole lot of reasoning and rational analogies. What did you provide?
My point is, and it's not directed at you, if you're going to dig your heels in and act like you're right, at least provide a tiny bit of rational information or reasoning to back up what you say. Otherwise you come off like a 6 year old.
BTW, was my reasoning about stripper income and minimum wage, etc, reasonable?
seriously shadow and viking -
I don't use this approach everyday.
Heck - I would feel intruded if another guy came up and talked to dancer sittin with me.
But - as the situation has been described (read original post) - it should be the duty of upright supporters of "strip club industry" to provide an option to the dancer. An option.
The dancer can still do what she wants to do.
When applied in situations described by original poster - my experience has not shown any upright customer feeling stiffed. In fact many were happy - that someone asked the dancer.
I would not recommend this approach if I had detected undesirable side effects to customers (since I am one).
Again - don't do this everyday. Only recommended for situation described in original post. (The other option is to simply whine here)
As captains of strip club industry - the veterans of TUSCL forum should step up and re-energize a sagging and dead strip-club - when a situation warrants. (ok - done with the blah blah blah ! )
gsv sez: "Do you really think a girl is going to waste time sitting with someone if they're getting nothing for it at all?"
OF COURSE !! Same reason they spend an hour in the dressing room instead of circulating. Same reason they spend an hour with their noses buried in their cellphones. Same reason they sit on their asses off in a corner doing nothing but socializing with another stripper. I see it all the time.
And I gave a long, detailed, rational analogy describing how they probably don't need to work more than 15 minutes each hour to make far more than they'd make elsewhere.
How many more examples, how much more reasoning, how much more do you need before you're willing to accept that you might be wrong? Read thru what I posted, and tell me specifically where I'm wrong. Give me reasoning, not just statements.
"becausse we are taught not everyone should be treated equal."
Estafador those words of yours SPEAK for themselves. What kind of person are you? I'm assuming these words were primarily aimed at women. I cannot imagine any woman who would want anything to do with a person with an Asshole attitude like that.
Dancers tend to sit with customers for many reasons:
1. They don't feel like playing the "do you want a dance" game with a bunch of assholes in the club that night, so they sit with someone they like.
2. They have already made their goal for that night, either thru a VIP session or working their ass off for the first 3 or 4 hours, and now they want to sit and relax with an interesting guy for a few hours.
3. They are inexperienced and are not sure how to manage their time.
4. The guy they are with is feeding them 20's the whole time they are talking.
5. The guy they are sitting with is one of their regulars who is good for a lot of money now or later.
6. The guy they are sitting with is slipping them drugs under the table.
7. They are drunk or high, and don't give a shit whether they make anymore money that night.
I am sure that there are many other reasons, but these are just a few of the ones I have personal knowledge of.
Excellent discussion. As far as other assholes interrupting me and my dancer, it has only happened once.
I told him I was paying for the lady's time and when she was through then he could talk to her. So leave us alone. By the look on my face he knew he was in for all he could handle. Fortunately for everyone, he was still sober enough to get the message and leave.
I NEVER approach a dancer when she is with someone. If I must communicate in these circumstances, I ask the manager or waitress to relay my message.
Like you said, its 2 o'clock somewhere and sometimes its 2 o'clock for the bad guys.
"OF COURSE !! Same reason they spend an hour in the dressing room instead of circulating. Same reason they spend an hour with their noses buried in their cellphones. Same reason they sit on their asses off in a corner doing nothing but socializing with another stripper. I see it all the time. "
But then they're still getting something. Doesn't have to be money. It could be a good conversation. It could be relaxing. Stripping isn't an easy job.
The idea that a girl needs to be making money for her entire stay, every moment, is stupid.
@jerikson- Oh for fucks sake, the energy it takes to get through to someone like you is exhausting. You want to argue about everything with everyone. Where do you find the energy?
If you want to talk about digging your heels in, look in the mirror. Btw, your own reasoning isnt data. You asked me for it, where's yours? Do you see where this is going?...Nowhere.
Its highly unlikely that a girl will sit with someone for a profound amount of time and not get something out of it, unless, as tiredtraveler mentioned, they are new and inexperienced.
Good for you Stiletto25. Profound arrogance can be hard to try to reason with. Keep putting jerikson40 in his place. Your perspective as a dancer MIGHT work better than that of another club Patron.
I really don't think that a dancer goes to work trying to beat minimum wage or that they will work at McDonalds. Maybe Starbucks.
Girls have to work a full shift. They may know that they are making money off of one guy that night so they hang out the rest of the night. Sometimes dancers are burnt out over the hustle of one or two dances and they actually go to hang out with girlfriends and score one regular a night.
OK...this really is off topic...BUT tonight both my ATFs were working the same night! In my 61 years on this earth, Two women never fought over me...I mean real cat fight! It was very embarrassing being inbetween them. It all started over a LD. I was being pulled by one and held by the other...until the slapping started. Bouncers and other dancers pulled them apart, but the tension lasted the rest of the night. To say it wasn't a very enjoyable night was an understatement. I have a lot of making up to do to these ladies.
But from an old man's ego...it was thrilling to be fought over....made me feel so wanted.
I will keep you informed of the final outcome.
Wow. Everything that stiletto just said. My thunder was completely stolen there. :)
I'll just add that there are indeed some dancers that spend a lot of time in the dressing room or by themselves. As I mentioned before, burnout is a huge issue in this business and some girls can only handle so much customer interaction. Others are indeed less than perfectly motivated.
But the reality is that there is very little that management can do to curb these issues. Some of these girls would simply crack if pushed too hard. Also, most of the seasoned pros that I deal with would never tolerate being micromanaged and would just move to another club, taking their house fees and best regulars with them.
It is really fascinating to read some guy posting about how he understands better than club owners how to maximize their club revenues, as if they haven't been doing this forever and are not as business savvy as he is. ;)
@Jerikson. The girls are there to make money for themselves and the club or the club wouldn't be open in the first place. If they take breaks it's because they made their money, are waiting for regulars, or like sitting with a guy they like. They don't like wasting time hustling guys that have little or nothing to spend. They can tell. Try telling the girl after tipping her stage act you would like some dances. Asking her to sit with you is not that enticing.
@Alucard I'm the asshole that puts girls at the near bottom priority and I let them know just that and they like that type of chase (to make me make them top priority). I think that's because they know i want them, but I also want to get work done first. Girls like a working man who makes the demands instead of the man who has too much time on their hands and hovers around their ass 24/7. (this is all under the presumption, that you got adequate looks at the very least) They want to get to know why your mysterious and giving them bare minimum time. Girls are just weird like that. If going by you, I'd say generations have vastly changed.
@rick sounds like their the broke superstar. They can take breaks when they want, make money when they want and the fans (customers) will still flock to them. The poorest gang of superstars lol
"Oh for fucks sake, the energy it takes to get through to someone like you is exhausting. You want to argue about everything with everyone. Where do you find the energy?"
Wow. Sorry Stiletto. I thought this was a discussion forum. Where you, like, discuss stuff. Which is what I was doing. Am I not allowed to do that? Cuz a bunch of other people were spending just as much time posting their views. But you don't get pissed at them. Maybe it's because you just don't like me because I don't agree with you, so whatever I do is automatically wrong. Yeah, that's probably it.
I'll stop now, because I don't want you to blow a freakin' gasket.
Yes Estafador the generations have changed & and if you are a typical indication, then the changes are going in the wrong direction. VERY MUCH in a wrong direction. I know how to treat a woman.
I think one helpful way to think of many of the suggestions in this thread is the following:
Dancers, and you, probably have different definitions for the term "deadbeat."
In other words, the guy may indeed by paying her in some currency or another, even though he looks TO YOU like he isn't providing anything to her except a way to waste more unprofitable time. That could be, as suggested, drugs, "coolness" and enjoyable company, the wrong presumption that he will later spend money on her, etc. etc..
I often find it interesting and revelatory to learn which guys the dancers find entertaining, intelligent, or interesting. Usually my perception agrees with the dancers, to some extent or other. But there is a significant population of stunning surprises. One out of every, oh, twelve or ten guys who attracts excess dancer attention, it seems to me, is a slimy sleazeball. The dancers say, "Oh he's so kind" or or "he's just a riot" or "that guy really has a great personality" and all I can think about him if I look at him or see him or even interact with him, is, "what a fake. He's unclean, unkempt, false. He reminds me of the little boy who didn't know how to wipe himself." I would NEVER want that guy to be on my soccer team. I would distrust him, I would assume or guess or worry that he was just going to forget to pick me up an hour before the big game if we agreed that he was going to give me a ride, I would think he would just stop trying so hard halfway through a major fast break and the chance would be lost and he wouldn't care and he'd think he could buy drinks for everyone and that would make it OK. For dancers, somehow, that DOES make his seeming irresponsibility OK. And the funny thing is, even though I don't actually KNOW if he's a sleazeball irresponsible guy or not, the DANCERS also don't know any more about him than I do, when they first meet. So, on the basis of the SAME amount of evidence, the girls and I have opposite responses.
Those "sleazeball" guys have what I don't. That is, they "got game." They are the men whose style of charisma attracts females and repulses males, in a general "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" sort of way. It's of course a generalization, a wildly inaccurate view of things, but it's a fair point to make: men who are "deadbeats" to you, are, to dancers, "winners."
2)To those guys who do this; what do you talk about and how do you keep saying no? Many things. Mostly about our life's. I am a regular and she, a favorite, and she does make money as I don't say "no", just "later" or "another time".
or alucard, your older, set in your ways and refuse to see the other side of the coin. Things do happen for a reason. I obviously haven't lived during your generation, but my generation is no everyone smiles and is happy. Especially if your black, and don't say race doesn't matter because it most certainly does and if you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself. For this conversation, guys today act like that for a reason, not just because its the in thing.
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My current ATF is a lot like OhioVoyeur's ex-ATF. She has a tendency to go to whatever cute young guy happens to be in the club at the time (and if he has his girlfriend with him, it just indulges her bisexuality). But the thing is, I hardly ever see any of these young kids buy dances. She once complained that the only people who ever bought dances were older gentlemen. Not to be rude, but in general, at least there, a large portion of the customer base is older gentlemen. Younger people, by and large, go there to drink with their buddies and see naked chicks, in that order.
And, obviously, it doesn't mean they ARE spending money either, correct? Just because it applies to you, or any one person, doesn't mean it applies to everyone.
Yes, some girls get paid to sit with guys. But I suspect that in the grand scheme of things, the majority of strippers sit with guys for reasons other than they are getting paid. As others have implied, chances are that most strippers do the same as most employees on the planet would do if given the opportunity. They sit around and socialize because it's easier than getting off their asses and working.
It's difficult to start a conversation with a new guy. Especially if he's a stranger. Especially if he's not attractive. Also, as others have said, strippers aren't necessarily good businesswomen. Which means that they may not have the ambition necessary to actually work and do a good job. Y'know, like the common perception of government employees. Put in your time and collect your paycheck.
Also, for most women, what strippers do is probably not the most honorable and desirable work, so there's probably a fairly strong conscious or subconscious desire to not even be there.
Now I'm sure there are some exceptions, and I'm sure we'll hear from one or two strippers who think that since THEY aren't that way then that means strippers in general aren't that way. But I tend to believe that strippers are, in many ways, like most other women on the planet. Though maybe they're more likely to have a few more 'issues' than most women.
And yes, I see it all the time. Virtually every time I go into a club. Was in a club yesterday. Two decent looking girls out of 6, both sitting in the laps of some old guys who weren't getting dances. Yeah, they could have been handing the girls money under the table, but I doubt it. This is a low end club in a low end area where there aren't a lot of big spenders.
There were about 12 guys in the club, nobody on stage, no girls circulating, 2 decent girls sitting in guys' laps for maybe 45 minutes, the rest of the girls in the dressing room.
Now, let's do the math. Is it a case of honorable, well intentioned, hard working girls doing their best, or a bunch of girls who really didn't want to be there passing up an opportunity to make some money off of 12 bored guys who were waiting to be entertained?
I left after an hour, due to severe boredom. I had $120 in my pocket when I left, that I expected I'd be spending on lap dances. The bottom line: incompetent management, and girls who didn't want to work.
I have a regular who sits with me most of the night. When she does her "rounds" I tend to watch. She really turns on all her flirt and gets close and personal. Most of the time it's for nothing. She comes back complaining. I also observe other dancers doing the same but for longer periods of time. I see that no money passes hands...I just don't see the reason for the time investment! Oh, I do pay her very well for her time with me. As well as many 5-10 lapdance sets and VIP. She makes out well.
Your continued attempts to compare these girls to "employees" isn't any less stupid just because you keep repeating it. They pay to be there, whether they earn any money or not.
You also have no clue why a given girl is sitting with a guy for an extended timeframe. However, since they have to pay a house fee and tip-outs regardless of how much they make and still have to earn enough to pay bills on top of that, there would be an awful lot of hungry strippers out there if they were really goofing off as much as you suppose. Just because you don't understand the dynamics doesn't mean that they aren't getting paid.
All of this girly whining, from multiple posters, about being ignored are really getting old.
Okay, here, let me help you...
Let's say that a stripper has to pay something like, I dunno, $50 to dance a shift ("tipout" or "house fee" or whatever). We can argue forever what the number is, but I'm sure it varies by club, and shift, and a bunch of other stuff. But for argument let's start with $50.
And let's assume that the club takes $10 of every $20 lapdance. Again, we can argue, but let's just assume for now.
So that means she has to either do 5 dances in an 8 hour shift to start making money, or maybe 1 VIP.
Now, in California the minimum wage is $8 per hour. Yes, I know that strippers are NOT employees, but just for comparison. For a stripper at the end of her shift to make minimum wage means she needs to do less than 1 lapdance per hour (actually 5/8 of a dance) to cover the tipout, and 1 dance per hour to make minimum wage. So let's say two lap dances per hour.
And a lapdance lasts, what, 3 minutes? Which means 6 minutes of her time per hour to make the same that she'd make working at MacDonalds.
Hmmm......
Now, if she's a hard working independent contractor, she could make three times what she'd make at MacDonalds by spending 12 minutes per hour doing lapdances.
So she can sit on some guys lap, get paid NOTHING, goofing off for 45 minutes each hour, and make 3 times what she'd make at MacDonalds, as long as she spends just 15 minutes each hour doing laps.
SHE DOESN'T NEED to have guys slipping her $100 bills to make more than most of her friends. She can goof off most of her shift and still make a lot more than most people make. And I contend that's what most dancers choose to do. You contend that most or all strippers that sit with guys get paid for their time. No data or logic to support that, just your statements that it's true.
Dude, just TRY to make a rational point. It's not that hard. You're an expert, right?
@VH_Kicks FINALLY somebody gets it. If we wanted to bother talking to women, we'd go to a regular club (or just hit the streets and start flirting with cuties).
TO BERGE....(Btw, I would have seen you post whether you shouted my name or not)
You dont always know who is and who is not spending. Your regular girl is one you do know about, however, you wrote a generalized thread wondering about why dancers spend time with deadbeats ....well, not everyone is and many times, money is still exchanged for time. I know this cant be news to you
Of course it's not. Nor is it the point. What we are talking about is what are called 'generalities'. Statements that are generally true. Not always true, but more often than not. Stuff that is true a majority if the time.
And what is a majority? Well, in elections it's 51% or more. Which means that if 500,001 people out of a total electorate of 1,000,000 vote for a candidate, he wins. It also means that 499,999 are pissed.
The point is that, in general, more strippers sit around on their asses because they don't want to work than those who actively work. And, in general, the girls spending lots of time on some guys lap are probably not getting paid for it, but rather socializing, because it's easier.
Do you have any data to refute that? Other than, "oh, I'm not like that".
"Of course it's not. Nor is it the point. What we are talking about is what are called 'generalities'. Statements that are generally true. Not always true, but more often than not. Stuff that is true a majority if the time."
These "generalities" are based upon a bunch of asinine and, in my experience, largely inaccurate assumptions. You've been told, time and again now, why dancers "goof off' with certain customers. It is because they are getting paid, one way or another. And stop with those stupid McDonalds comparisons already - most of those dancers leave the club with FAR more than what a minimum wager makes. The dancers that I deal with generally view leaving the club with less than $200 (after tipouts and house fees) to be a bad night.
So why do they sit with those bigger spenders when you are desperately trying to get their attention for your 3 LDs? Why can't a dancer just get up and go over to you, give you those dances, and then go back to the bigger fish? Because she is afraid of pissing him off and/or that another girl will scoop him up, thereby losing his money altogether. Also, if he is an established "regular" who comes in repeatedly just to see her, she also risks losing future income from him.
And I apologize for doubting you. Because you're the man.
Feel better?
jerikson40, you can't prove that the guys aren't spending money on the girl at some point that makes it worth it for her to spend time with them.
I do concede It's also not easy to prove the other side, that they ARE spending money - we can't say that for 100% certain either. But it makes complete logical sense that they ARE spending money. If the girls were NOT getting money and really just messing around this much, that would be a really dumb decision on their part. Most of the girls I know are really money hungry when in the club and will go after the big spenders. Do you really think a girl is going to waste time sitting with someone if they're getting nothing for it at all? The only exception I can see are really rare cases where the girl is attracted to the guy and actually want to spend time with him, or the club is just not busy at all and she's already asked the other guys in the club if they want a dance.
Other than that, you are trying to prove that the guys aren't spending money. Until you can prove that, you really don't have any argument.
@jerikson, I don't mean to come off as harsh or a know-it-all as I am neither, but I might have been a little impatient with you. I've been where you are now, very much enjoying the club scene but having the best girls monopolized by other guys.
It took me a long time, and ever increasing spending, before the picture of what was happening became clearer, thanks in no small part to dancers themselves educating me about the facts of life in a SC. ;) Before that, I used to sit there and think the same things that you did. I cut my teeth in this thing many years ago in clubs in NYC and Boston, of all places, and I constantly had to take a back seat to guys with corporate expense accounts and others with very deep pockets.
A lot of things happened since then. First, I learned to avoid those clubs that cater to high spending execs. Second, my income has gone up a lot and so has my spending. Third, the economy has been in a prolonged slump now, making what used to be considered decent spending worth a whole lot more. The combination of all of these things has now moved my relative value to certain girls in certain clubs up a whole lot, so I continue to see this more from the other side of the fence now.
Anyway, just my thoughts for whatever they are worth.
And how do you know you are right about the majority? Do you have data?
I try to avoid starting something with really young women as they are VERY emotionally and intellectually IMMATURE!!! All the ATFs I have had have been north of, 26 yrs of age. Two of them late 30's.They understand the business more than the very young 20 somethings or teenagers.
You guys complaining about the lack of time you get with your chosen Hottie. Try bringing a lot more than $100 to $120 with you. After all you all seem to believe that $$$$ talks.
I think you should run for President jerikson40, better chance of making the country work your way. LOL
Regulars have different habits, maybe they spend couple of thousand one night and then drop by after work for an hour and couple of drinks.
There were times I would receive a text, stop on my way home from work, sit for an hour and just leave some cash before I left. No dances or VIP.
Also, some girls are OK, with hanging out because they know a regular is coming later and they are guarenteed a decent night. They are just killing time with their friends. You all know a girl can score money quick when a regular arrives.
@tiredtraveler Its funny that you say that. I don't know whehre you live, but if you come to NY the roles are extremely reversed. Us "diaper boys" usually are the ones that get flocked upon first with the dancers and if I'm anything to go by, when we come in, we actually have dough to spend on them. But you forget that your genneratioin is different from ours. From my experience, we would NEVER buy a girl a drink,becausse we are taught not everyone should be treated equal. Me especially, why should I buy you a drink and I don't even know you? That's like one of those desperate guys who will resort to buying a girl he likes flowers and candy before she gets a chance to know him. To us, that's lame (hopefully that makes sense). We would only tip at the stage and maybe the dance (the dance is more private so that's debatable) because we do like to peacock and buying a lady a drink is not a good show of it. This is how I see us "diaper boys" and iit vastly differs fronm your generation's own ideology of what to do at a club and I'm ok with that. I don't know you, so why should I buy you a drink. Why tip if I'm gonna pay you either way (especially if you're being paid in large quantities).
Though on another hand, I can't deny that we won't just talk up a girl without a dance, it probably does happen. Maybe where you guys go its a problem, but the places I've been to, they're usually gonna bang that chick by the end of the night. But in that particular point, I don't see too much of the chatter box "diaper boys".
Agree with the comments - especially - DJWTF, superdude, Stilleto, berge.
I've had this problem too. I spot a hottie who I want a dance from - and she just sits with a customer. Forever ! No dances, just lounging. But all the reasons stated above are happening - even when I see no dancing.
I solved the problem this way: I tell my waitress to go tell the dancer that I'd like some company. Or - when I feel like - I walk up to her - kneel down and say this "Hi I'm Roger - I'd like your company and I'm sitting over there. Whenever you're done here. No rush."
Most of the times it works.
A couple of times the dancer continued to sit with customer.
But a few times - the dancer started her walks and sat with nearly everyone around me, but me - some accepting, some declining.
Need a good dose of humility once in a while !!!
(BTW - the girl in the photo did that. Instead of getting pissed - I became even more mellow in my request. She was surprised and finally danced. Lee said - "I knew you wanted me - and I wanted to make myself hard to get. Besides, I'm just another dancer in your long line up.")
Can't deny her last comment.
Oh, I thought your statements were based on some knowledge of what the other girls do. I guess not.
If you expect people to believe you (if you even care), then maybe something besides "This is true because I say it's true" would be good. Otherwise, accept that maybe you could be wrong, and don't dig your heels in, like some people do.
"And how do you know you are right about the majority? Do you have data?"
I gave a whole lot of reasoning and rational analogies. What did you provide?
My point is, and it's not directed at you, if you're going to dig your heels in and act like you're right, at least provide a tiny bit of rational information or reasoning to back up what you say. Otherwise you come off like a 6 year old.
BTW, was my reasoning about stripper income and minimum wage, etc, reasonable?
I don't use this approach everyday.
Heck - I would feel intruded if another guy came up and talked to dancer sittin with me.
But - as the situation has been described (read original post) - it should be the duty of upright supporters of "strip club industry" to provide an option to the dancer. An option.
The dancer can still do what she wants to do.
When applied in situations described by original poster - my experience has not shown any upright customer feeling stiffed. In fact many were happy - that someone asked the dancer.
I would not recommend this approach if I had detected undesirable side effects to customers (since I am one).
Again - don't do this everyday. Only recommended for situation described in original post. (The other option is to simply whine here)
As captains of strip club industry - the veterans of TUSCL forum should step up and re-energize a sagging and dead strip-club - when a situation warrants. (ok - done with the blah blah blah ! )
OF COURSE !! Same reason they spend an hour in the dressing room instead of circulating. Same reason they spend an hour with their noses buried in their cellphones. Same reason they sit on their asses off in a corner doing nothing but socializing with another stripper. I see it all the time.
And I gave a long, detailed, rational analogy describing how they probably don't need to work more than 15 minutes each hour to make far more than they'd make elsewhere.
How many more examples, how much more reasoning, how much more do you need before you're willing to accept that you might be wrong? Read thru what I posted, and tell me specifically where I'm wrong. Give me reasoning, not just statements.
Estafador those words of yours SPEAK for themselves. What kind of person are you? I'm assuming these words were primarily aimed at women. I cannot imagine any woman who would want anything to do with a person with an Asshole attitude like that.
Dancers tend to sit with customers for many reasons:
1. They don't feel like playing the "do you want a dance" game with a bunch of assholes in the club that night, so they sit with someone they like.
2. They have already made their goal for that night, either thru a VIP session or working their ass off for the first 3 or 4 hours, and now they want to sit and relax with an interesting guy for a few hours.
3. They are inexperienced and are not sure how to manage their time.
4. The guy they are with is feeding them 20's the whole time they are talking.
5. The guy they are sitting with is one of their regulars who is good for a lot of money now or later.
6. The guy they are sitting with is slipping them drugs under the table.
7. They are drunk or high, and don't give a shit whether they make anymore money that night.
I am sure that there are many other reasons, but these are just a few of the ones I have personal knowledge of.
Excellent discussion. As far as other assholes interrupting me and my dancer, it has only happened once.
I told him I was paying for the lady's time and when she was through then he could talk to her. So leave us alone. By the look on my face he knew he was in for all he could handle. Fortunately for everyone, he was still sober enough to get the message and leave.
I NEVER approach a dancer when she is with someone. If I must communicate in these circumstances, I ask the manager or waitress to relay my message.
Like you said, its 2 o'clock somewhere and sometimes its 2 o'clock for the bad guys.
But then they're still getting something. Doesn't have to be money. It could be a good conversation. It could be relaxing. Stripping isn't an easy job.
The idea that a girl needs to be making money for her entire stay, every moment, is stupid.
If you want to talk about digging your heels in, look in the mirror. Btw, your own reasoning isnt data. You asked me for it, where's yours? Do you see where this is going?...Nowhere.
Its highly unlikely that a girl will sit with someone for a profound amount of time and not get something out of it, unless, as tiredtraveler mentioned, they are new and inexperienced.
LOL
Girls have to work a full shift. They may know that they are making money off of one guy that night so they hang out the rest of the night. Sometimes dancers are burnt out over the hustle of one or two dances and they actually go to hang out with girlfriends and score one regular a night.
But from an old man's ego...it was thrilling to be fought over....made me feel so wanted.
I will keep you informed of the final outcome.
I'll just add that there are indeed some dancers that spend a lot of time in the dressing room or by themselves. As I mentioned before, burnout is a huge issue in this business and some girls can only handle so much customer interaction. Others are indeed less than perfectly motivated.
But the reality is that there is very little that management can do to curb these issues. Some of these girls would simply crack if pushed too hard. Also, most of the seasoned pros that I deal with would never tolerate being micromanaged and would just move to another club, taking their house fees and best regulars with them.
It is really fascinating to read some guy posting about how he understands better than club owners how to maximize their club revenues, as if they haven't been doing this forever and are not as business savvy as he is. ;)
@rick sounds like their the broke superstar. They can take breaks when they want, make money when they want and the fans (customers) will still flock to them. The poorest gang of superstars lol
Wow. Sorry Stiletto. I thought this was a discussion forum. Where you, like, discuss stuff. Which is what I was doing. Am I not allowed to do that? Cuz a bunch of other people were spending just as much time posting their views. But you don't get pissed at them. Maybe it's because you just don't like me because I don't agree with you, so whatever I do is automatically wrong. Yeah, that's probably it.
I'll stop now, because I don't want you to blow a freakin' gasket.
Dancers, and you, probably have different definitions for the term "deadbeat."
In other words, the guy may indeed by paying her in some currency or another, even though he looks TO YOU like he isn't providing anything to her except a way to waste more unprofitable time. That could be, as suggested, drugs, "coolness" and enjoyable company, the wrong presumption that he will later spend money on her, etc. etc..
I often find it interesting and revelatory to learn which guys the dancers find entertaining, intelligent, or interesting. Usually my perception agrees with the dancers, to some extent or other. But there is a significant population of stunning surprises. One out of every, oh, twelve or ten guys who attracts excess dancer attention, it seems to me, is a slimy sleazeball. The dancers say, "Oh he's so kind" or or "he's just a riot" or "that guy really has a great personality" and all I can think about him if I look at him or see him or even interact with him, is, "what a fake. He's unclean, unkempt, false. He reminds me of the little boy who didn't know how to wipe himself." I would NEVER want that guy to be on my soccer team. I would distrust him, I would assume or guess or worry that he was just going to forget to pick me up an hour before the big game if we agreed that he was going to give me a ride, I would think he would just stop trying so hard halfway through a major fast break and the chance would be lost and he wouldn't care and he'd think he could buy drinks for everyone and that would make it OK. For dancers, somehow, that DOES make his seeming irresponsibility OK. And the funny thing is, even though I don't actually KNOW if he's a sleazeball irresponsible guy or not, the DANCERS also don't know any more about him than I do, when they first meet. So, on the basis of the SAME amount of evidence, the girls and I have opposite responses.
Those "sleazeball" guys have what I don't. That is, they "got game." They are the men whose style of charisma attracts females and repulses males, in a general "men are from Mars, women are from Venus" sort of way. It's of course a generalization, a wildly inaccurate view of things, but it's a fair point to make: men who are "deadbeats" to you, are, to dancers, "winners."
1) Has anyone else notice this? Yes
2)To those guys who do this; what do you talk about and how do you keep saying no? Many things. Mostly about our life's. I am a regular and she, a favorite, and she does make money as I don't say "no", just "later" or "another time".