discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"but have heard that San Jose is no touch"
True
-->"SF is expensive"
True
-->"and in bad areas."
Definitely nowhere near true. There are two clubs in sketchy areas of the Tenderloin, one club in a slightly sketchy area of Market street. All the rest are in relatively safer areas -- in fact, all but one are near some great areas of the city (basically, right where the financial district, Chinatown, and North Beach (Little Italy) all meet)
discussion comment
5 years ago
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azddOn the prowl in Tucson and Phoenix
Seeking is no longer just an arrangement site. You can find everything from escorts to sugar babies to everything in between. If you want to just troll for escorts on seeking, it's not difficult to do. However, at $90/month just for the ability to send messages, plus the fact that you'll get tons of ghosting, flaking, etc., it seems to me that if you would be just as happy with an escort, you might as well just get an escort. If you'd be just as happy with a one-hour OTC, and in any case enjoy going to a SC to find your OTC girl, you're better off doing that. Neither an escort, nor a stripper with whom you're clear you just want an hour of hotel room time, is going to expect anything more out of you.
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"I'm not saying it makes sense or is reasonable or logical. But a dancer who has a wide menu in the VIP can absolutely have her own set of pet peeves and temper-triggering topics that might seem trivial to us.
Here's the thing... if I'm sitting with a smoking hot dancer and she's open to my kind of fun in VIP, I'm not the dumb fuckwit that's going to say "oh by the way, you look fantastic for a woman in her 30s." "
Ex-fucking-xactly. In the end, this is about having an amazing BJ in the VIP for a great price. It's not about "some other stripper asked me something obnoxious, so I'll ask you something obnoxious, because in my weird mind that's fair".
discussion comment
5 years ago
AGree. Darkblue, yes, of course, you can ask the strippers anything. But that doesn't mean they don't get annoyed as fuck by it, or offended and just bite their tongue. They are people, not programmable lapdance dispensers. And, they are often people who are emotionally immature for their age, which means that their responses can sometimes be out of proportion. You might not notice it, but the girls talk about an asshole tax (charge higher prices, give lower mileage) for guys who offend them or who they don't like. Plus, really, does your fantasy really have to include her happily tolerating sensitive questions?
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"I don't ask their age. Some dancers are touchy about it (be they young or old). I'd just ask "Can I buy you a drink?". If she orders alcohol then I assume that she's 21. If I'm wrong, that's for the bartender to sort out. "
Agree. I'll either ask if I can be her a drink, or sometimes, tell her I'd like to get her a drink and ask if she's old enough. I understand why random guys on their once-a-year big stripclub night ask questions like her age, but PLs should probably know better
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"I do not think WhatsApp is good for activities you want to keep anonymous,"
Just to make sure this didn't get lost in the bigger post -- this appears to be the important point, since it's anonymity from the strippers, rather than super secure encryption, 99% of us are after
discussion comment
5 years ago
I am pretty disciplined about my spending at the club. $400 is about the most I can recall spending, of which about $100 was food and drinks
discussion comment
5 years ago
I don't understand the concept of not enjoying dinner because you haven't had sex with her yet. I'm the opposite: everything tastes better when every sense is razor sharp and every neuron firing due to the beautiful view across the table, which I'll be shortly indulging in. Every joke she says is a comedy act; every story, a heart-pounding page-turner; the meal is like a feast. After sex, I'm mostly satisfied, relaxed, and less present, at least for a while
discussion comment
5 years ago
Agree her ITC take-home is more tied in, but even that can be deceiving.
The other day, my CF made $900, which is really REALLY good for dayshift. I'm too lazy to figure out how big of a cut the club takes, but it's pretty significant -- let's say she gets to keep $650 of that, or $600 after tip-outs. I am pretty sure this is actually more than she would take home since the club is taking huge cuts now. So, she takes home $500-$600, for 8 hours of work. For that, she has to put up with the regular club bullshit of demeaning behavior from staff, sometimes very unpleasant stripper politics, and fighting off the stream of guys who exhaustingly waste her time, try to stick their fingers in her holes for $20, etc. The amount of physical and emotional energy, for 8 hours, for $500-$600, is very very high.
So me offering her $350 for an OTC might sound crazy. But when you factor in all of the above, *if* she finds me an easy and fun customer, it actually doesn't sound so bad anymore. And $900 is a huge amount for dayshift as far as gross revenue, there's lots of days she does half that.
I've found that her OTC number has absolutely nothing to do with ITC room prices, is only loosely related to her ultimate net takehome, but you also have to factor in the huge emotional drain being in the club is, and don't de-value how much she might appreciate being with one low-stress customer instead. So girls don't value that at all, but some value it a lot.
discussion comment
5 years ago
1000%, eat first, then go drinking, drink in her sheer sexiness and energy, flirt the entire time until I'm so horny I can barely think straight, then go fuck it off. With my ATFs (who by definition, I really really like hanging out with), sometimes we go back out after sex, and go drinking or have a late snack. Although the older I get, the less often I find the energy to do this.
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"That said, they likely don't care about you fucking OTC or with escorts.""
Honestly - as long as they are legal, of age etc etc etc (things I hope are a given) - just use WhatsApp/Snapchat. Nobody gives a shit about you fucking a 25 year old."
Denim, I think by focusing on the encryption, you might have missed the real concern. I doubt anyone needs ANY encryption when messaging a stripper. You're right, the gubmint isn't going to try to snag you for sending dick pics to your ATF. Most of us text our strippers in clear text, it's not a problem.
What most PLs want is not encryption; what we want is for the stripper not to be able to know our name, place of work, address, be able to find our real social media. That's where WhatsApp seems to fall short.
To get anonymity from your ATF, you don't need to do any of the extreme things you outlined, like buying a burner phone in cash, etc. All you need to do is not use WhatsApp. Use a burner line, done. Or if you MUST use an app, I'm pretty sure you can't tell someone's phone number through kik. Google voice and textnow are free and reliable.
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"For adult fun purposes, there are more private options."
Exactly. Or maybe the way to say it is, WhatsApp is private but not anonymous.
Private: WhatsApp uses end-to-end encryption with a good reputation among the security community. Your messages are private between you and your CF, they can't be intercepted and read, even by WhatsApp themselves
Anonymous: You are NOT anonymous on WhatsApp; your CF can get your phone number and figure out who you are. If you wouldn't text her with your real phone number, don't message her with WhatsApp
discussion comment
5 years ago
While I haven't used it in years, so don't remember first-hand, 30s of googling reveals that there's no way to hide your phone number from your contacts on WhatsApp. If that's true, if you're comfortable with your stripper friends knowing your real name, address, and where you work -- since it's easy to find those things off your real phone number -- then you're good to go. Otherwise, stick with a second line like google voice, or go full teenager and switch to kik
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->" Dancing can be a cruel game and after 30 a lot of girls have troubles making $1000 per month."
I am on a lot of dancers facebooks; many are girls I met over the late 90s and early 00s. I can tell you, as a rule they do not end up marrying handsome guys. Some of the girls do age well, some obviously don't. But not uncommon for them, after dating "hot guys" in their early 20s, they end up with not so hot guys, with what look like blue collar jobs.
Then, of course, there's the occasional girl who scores a gig as a trophy wife :)
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"That is negotiable and most dancers want $400-$600 per hour and guys pay that. Wouldn’t that translate to their OTC price?"
Only for guys foolish enough to follow any tusclers advice that ITC and OTC are tied together. I mean, I'm sure they're at least loosely tied together -- a girl making $1500/night probably won't take $300 for a multi-hour OTC. But generally speaking, I've never seen any direct link between ITC room prices and OTC.
The example is most stark here in SF, where everything is so expensive. Note that I never do one-hour OTCs -- it's always multi-hour eating, drinking, sexing, and sometimes she'll get drunk enough that she just crashes in the hotel room. Do I pay the $900 for a 1-hour no-extras champagne room, that it costs at the club I go to? Nope, never even paid $500.
I think guys are out-thinking themselves with the "she makes $X/hour ITC, so I have to offer her at least $X (times however many hours we'll be together) for OTC". There's a lot of reasons she might take much much less. It's a rookie mistake, and the tusclers who keep giving advice that these rates should be tied together, are giving bad advice
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"Now granted he's far from alone in incorrectly assuming a correlation between ITC CR prices and a girl's OTC number."
And I still occasionally see guys on tuscl advise tying OTC price to CR price or whatever. I'd wouldn't be doing many OTCs if I did that. It's bad advice.
discussion comment
5 years ago
My general guideline is: as long as you're risk-aware (which I imagine Dr Evil is), then do what you have to do. By risk-aware, in this particular case, I mean:
- You realize that giving a stripper in advance is an incredibly low-percentage play.
- Since you realize that, no whining allowed if you get ripped off. I don't blame anyone for taking a risk that I wouldn't have, since I'm more risk-averse than most; but I blame them if they take knowingly take a risk and then whine about it not working out. You take a huge gamble, you accept the reward or the punishment, however it works out.
I've advanced ATFs -- not casual CFs, not random favorites, and certain not random strippers -- before, and it always worked out and paid dividends for me. But these are girls I knew really really well, and our relationship was more like an arrangement. And I knew even these were risks, if small. Generally, I think that once you give a stripper money, it's hers, and no agreement that you had prior is likely to be honored
discussion comment
5 years ago
One of my favorite OTC activities has been bringing strippers to the strip club, getting a few drinks in them and letting them run wild. As a former ATF said, after I asked her what she wanted to do when we finished dinner, "let's head to the strip club, get all horny, then go back to the room to fuck it off". Genius, madam.
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"The time to have negotiated a better rate has passed. You lack credibility as a recurring customer because you haven't been one. Why should she take a chance on you if you have only had two sessions?"
I absolutely, positively agree with all of this. Re-negotiating is not easy -- even if she would have taken less initially, there can often be ego tied up once you have paid more. My #1 advice is: negotiate a price that you can afford regularly, right from the get-go, or walk away. Yes, it sucks to walk away from a super hot chick, but it's even worse to have fucked her twice, know she's insanely good at sex, and also know you can't afford her again. Or rather, maybe "fuck her once at a high price" is a fine way to go for a variety guy; but as someone for whom the sex gets *better* as I get to know a stripper, it must be affordable from the get-go.
And absolutely, in her mind you've proven you're not a regular. Unless you're really overpaying, or she's particularly desperate, or both, I don't see any reason she should take any risk. You might need to be the one to take the risk -- like guaranteeing twice a month, and paying her for both OTCs at the same time. Which, what's the point? At this point, consider this a learning opportunity and change your M.O. for the next girl
discussion comment
5 years ago
25, that's why I was pointing that out also.... In NYC, $1000 PER DATE is far from unheard of.
My strategy would probably be similar to yours -- point out the realities, throw yourself on the mercy of the court. I wouldn't mention the term "sugar daddy" if I weren't going to sign up for that
discussion comment
5 years ago
Keep in mind if you mention the words Sugar Daddy specifically:
- Aside from her "allowance", most strippers associate sugar daddys with other spoiling -- gifts, shopping trips, etc. So even if you negotiate a lower allowance, you might find you've signed up for more than you bargained for, if you're her sugardaddy. Whenever I've been around strippers who had, or talked about, sugardaddies, that was the context
- If you've negotiated her per-meeting rate way down, based on the promise of being a 2x/month sugardaddy, well, she knows there's a chance you might just fuck her once at the reduced rate and then ghost. Expect she might ask you to go straight to an allowance model -- that is, if you were going to propose you see her twice a month for $500 per pop, she might ask for the entire $1000 up front. In fact, unless she's an idiot, I don't see any reason why she wouldn't -- you're the one asking for the rate break, you're the one proposing to be her SD, you should be the one to take the risk.
Anyway, just pointing out that, at least in strippers' minds, "sugar daddy" may trigger some other discussion. It might still be a great answer, just fore-arming you with science.
discussion comment
5 years ago
gmd, excuse me for not remembering the context. You're going out with your CF and her friends, or something? This is one of my favorite activities, me and a bunch of drunk strippers.
discussion comment
5 years ago
For the most part -- maybe because it's more normalized here in the bay area -- I don't think Asian dancers are particularly more or less modest in their private performances. I can imagine that where it's more rare, Asian women both might be more modest, and/or might be the focus of enough yellow fever that they don't need to be as high contact
discussion comment
5 years ago
-->"So a little help. How would you have worded it to provide useful info the the reader about what was available?"
I don't think there is a consequence-free way to do everything you want to do. You either get to provide useful info to the reader about a specific girl doing OTC, or you get to keep doing OTC the same way you have, IMO. You can't expect you can do both. Even if that one cunty PL hadn't outed you, another might have; or management or one of the other girls could have (and still may) read it, in which case the consequences can be much worse for her. In the days when we had a super-explicit & detailed (we named names) review board in my area, it was the other girls who provided the worst punishment. Protect your OTC or give specific OTC info to the PLs, one or the other, IMO.
discussion comment
5 years ago
Smile and say no thank you, simple enough.
I am a huge believer in "no excuses", and emphasized that in the article I wrote years ago. You don't owe her an excuse, they are unnecessary, and IME in 99% of cases, people make excuses because they're scared, even if just a little, about how she'll react.