Experience negotiating (down) OTC rates when repeating?
Nycdance
New York
First of all, should mention I'm in NYC, so things do tend to be more expensive here.
Anyway, background: last year year on one of my SC outings, I met a girl that I'd consider close to a 10. Blonde latina, gorgeous, we did about 5 dances for which she gave me a lot of leeway while hiding the view from the bouncers. She let me finger her to a (could be fake of course) orgasm while we dirty talked throughout, and at one point she secretly pulled her thong aside to give me a good look and to show me how wet she was...all just in the regular LP area. Around the 4th or 5th dance she unsurprisingly proposed going to the VIP room, which gave me a segue to propose OTC: that I'd rather not give the club a cut and just give the $ to her, so why don't we meet outside the club. She seemed to consider it and gave me her contact info. I left soon after.
A week later we exchanged text, I proposed meeting up for the champagne room price for an hour, she returned a text wanting "more than that". I mean it's NYC and I lusted after her, fine, so I added $100. It's not crazy money, let's just say more than 700 but under a thousand...about in line for good looking girls off Eros go for in NYC.
We met up (she came to me), we had a memorable time. Now that I got that out of my system, went back to my usual routine and mongering ways, though a few months back I did meet up with her again (for the same price).
Now here's a thing: I set aside basically $1000/mo for my "fun" budget, and meeting her once more or less uses it up for a month. It's for that reason I've only seen her twice in a year. Also I do know my way around "providers", and I know agencies that can hook me up with gorgeous russian 8-9.5s for <$400/hr. So even though I do like this girl and I think we have decent chemistry (for a PL/SC relationship, anyway), I don't want to meet her up often at this price. I'd be open to meeting her regularly if she were cheaper, but unfortunately we had already set the precedent, and I hesitate to propose basically cutting her rate in half, though that would still be in line with what I for FS with the agency girls.
How would you go about it? FWIW, for a PL I'm supposedly reasonably young and attractive, I mean I don't expect to get it for free (though it has happened), but I thankfully don't think it's a chore to be with me or anything, and most girls seem to enjoy it. I want to ask her if she's willing to e.g. cut it down to 400-500 and I could promise to see her at least once/month, vs. once every 6-7 months as we've been doing....hey almost a win-win situation right?
Has anyone tried something similar? If you feel I'm underpaying for NYC or overpaying like a chump for OTC, let's hear it too :)
Anyway, background: last year year on one of my SC outings, I met a girl that I'd consider close to a 10. Blonde latina, gorgeous, we did about 5 dances for which she gave me a lot of leeway while hiding the view from the bouncers. She let me finger her to a (could be fake of course) orgasm while we dirty talked throughout, and at one point she secretly pulled her thong aside to give me a good look and to show me how wet she was...all just in the regular LP area. Around the 4th or 5th dance she unsurprisingly proposed going to the VIP room, which gave me a segue to propose OTC: that I'd rather not give the club a cut and just give the $ to her, so why don't we meet outside the club. She seemed to consider it and gave me her contact info. I left soon after.
A week later we exchanged text, I proposed meeting up for the champagne room price for an hour, she returned a text wanting "more than that". I mean it's NYC and I lusted after her, fine, so I added $100. It's not crazy money, let's just say more than 700 but under a thousand...about in line for good looking girls off Eros go for in NYC.
We met up (she came to me), we had a memorable time. Now that I got that out of my system, went back to my usual routine and mongering ways, though a few months back I did meet up with her again (for the same price).
Now here's a thing: I set aside basically $1000/mo for my "fun" budget, and meeting her once more or less uses it up for a month. It's for that reason I've only seen her twice in a year. Also I do know my way around "providers", and I know agencies that can hook me up with gorgeous russian 8-9.5s for <$400/hr. So even though I do like this girl and I think we have decent chemistry (for a PL/SC relationship, anyway), I don't want to meet her up often at this price. I'd be open to meeting her regularly if she were cheaper, but unfortunately we had already set the precedent, and I hesitate to propose basically cutting her rate in half, though that would still be in line with what I for FS with the agency girls.
How would you go about it? FWIW, for a PL I'm supposedly reasonably young and attractive, I mean I don't expect to get it for free (though it has happened), but I thankfully don't think it's a chore to be with me or anything, and most girls seem to enjoy it. I want to ask her if she's willing to e.g. cut it down to 400-500 and I could promise to see her at least once/month, vs. once every 6-7 months as we've been doing....hey almost a win-win situation right?
Has anyone tried something similar? If you feel I'm underpaying for NYC or overpaying like a chump for OTC, let's hear it too :)
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... for <$400/hr. So even though I do like this girl and I think we have decent chemistry (for a PL/SC relationship, anyway), I don't want to meet her up often at this price. I'd be open to meeting her regularly if she were cheaper, but unfortunately we had already set the precedent, and I hesitate to propose basically cutting her rate in half, though that would still be in line with what I for FS with the agency girls.
How would you go about it? FWIW, for a PL I'm supposedly reasonably young and attractive, I mean I don't expect to get it for free (though it has happened), but I thankfully don't think it's a chore to be with me or anything, and most girls seem to enjoy it. I want to ask her if she's willing to e.g. cut it down to 400-500 and I could promise to see her at least once/month, vs. once every 6-7 months as we've been doing....hey almost a win-win situation right?
Has anyone tried something similar? If you feel I'm underpaying for NYC or overpaying like a chump for OTC, let's hear it too :)
(continued, again)
...for under $400/hr. So even though I do like this girl and I think we have decent chemistry (for a PL/SC relationship, anyway), I don't want to meet her up often at this price. I'd be open to meeting her regularly if she were cheaper, but unfortunately we had already set the precedent, and I hesitate to propose basically cutting her rate in half, though that would still be in line with what I for FS with the agency girls.
How would you go about it? FWIW, for a PL I'm supposedly reasonably young and attractive, I mean I don't expect to get it for free (though it has happened), but I thankfully don't think it's a chore to be with me or anything, and most girls seem to enjoy it. I want to ask her if she's willing to e.g. cut it down to 400-500 and I could promise to see her at least once/month, vs. once every 6-7 months as we've been doing....hey almost a win-win situation right?
Has anyone tried something similar? If you feel I'm underpaying for NYC or overpaying like a chump for OTC, let's hear it too :)
When paying for vip/champagne access in a club - dancers are usually open about the amount that the club gets vs the amount they get. Did you pay this girl the full amount (her cut + club cut)? If you did - you overpaid for otc - and now you are in a difficult position to negotiate.
Try to talk her down - but you need a smooth approach - as you could easily insult her - and then the service could be much less enjoyable.
I’d simply tell her that my budget doesn’t allow me to enjoy our time together which in my estimation is your basic problem, then I’d propose I can comfortably afford x, and that is what I’m willing to spend seeing you regularly, if that’s not good than I’m sorry but I need to move on and find another that is willing to accommodate me, and stick to it.
Good luck and tell us how it goes
- Aside from her "allowance", most strippers associate sugar daddys with other spoiling -- gifts, shopping trips, etc. So even if you negotiate a lower allowance, you might find you've signed up for more than you bargained for, if you're her sugardaddy. Whenever I've been around strippers who had, or talked about, sugardaddies, that was the context
- If you've negotiated her per-meeting rate way down, based on the promise of being a 2x/month sugardaddy, well, she knows there's a chance you might just fuck her once at the reduced rate and then ghost. Expect she might ask you to go straight to an allowance model -- that is, if you were going to propose you see her twice a month for $500 per pop, she might ask for the entire $1000 up front. In fact, unless she's an idiot, I don't see any reason why she wouldn't -- you're the one asking for the rate break, you're the one proposing to be her SD, you should be the one to take the risk.
Anyway, just pointing out that, at least in strippers' minds, "sugar daddy" may trigger some other discussion. It might still be a great answer, just fore-arming you with science.
My strategy would probably be similar to yours -- point out the realities, throw yourself on the mercy of the court. I wouldn't mention the term "sugar daddy" if I weren't going to sign up for that
"WIW, for a PL I'm supposedly reasonably young and attractive,..." if you think like this, you have the wrong mindset for this hobby.
The time to have negotiated a better rate has passed. You lack credibility as a recurring customer because you haven't been one. Why should she take a chance on you if you have only had two sessions?
My advice is to find someone else. Save this lady for special occasions. or better, drop her. Some of your comments make me think you are getting close to RIL. keep in mind that in another year or two, she isn't likely to be the 10 she is today.
Are you under paying or overpaying? IMO, only you can answer that. Do you think she is worth it? Could you do better on price and still hook up with young hotties? yes, I and other son here do it often.
I absolutely, positively agree with all of this. Re-negotiating is not easy -- even if she would have taken less initially, there can often be ego tied up once you have paid more. My #1 advice is: negotiate a price that you can afford regularly, right from the get-go, or walk away. Yes, it sucks to walk away from a super hot chick, but it's even worse to have fucked her twice, know she's insanely good at sex, and also know you can't afford her again. Or rather, maybe "fuck her once at a high price" is a fine way to go for a variety guy; but as someone for whom the sex gets *better* as I get to know a stripper, it must be affordable from the get-go.
And absolutely, in her mind you've proven you're not a regular. Unless you're really overpaying, or she's particularly desperate, or both, I don't see any reason she should take any risk. You might need to be the one to take the risk -- like guaranteeing twice a month, and paying her for both OTCs at the same time. Which, what's the point? At this point, consider this a learning opportunity and change your M.O. for the next girl
@twentyfive has the right idea. But your chance of success is low. I understand and have used the "rather not give a cut to the club" play. But your mistake was offering her the full amount you pay, rather than her "cut" plus 10-20% more. If the club takes $600 out of a $1000 session, she keeps $400. You should have offered something more than the $400, say $450-$500 ($550 max) to her. That means you pay less while she makes more. A win-win.
Now all you can do is honestly tell her you just can't budget $1000 per session. If she's not willing to accept your new, go forward amount (is that $500?), then you will need to part as friends and just enjoy seeing each other in the club from time to time. Then SHUT UP! Don't offer more, don't promise to see her more often. Just stick your budget as stated and let her work through the process.
Her potential reactions:
1. She will be insulted and tell you so, expecting you to pussy-out and withdraw your new price. Don't.
2. She will realize you can easily be replaced by a guy who will pay more and will ghost and/or block you. Go back to E**s and Russians. Problem solved.
3. She will KNOW she is "worth" more than $500, and ghost and/or block you. Go back to E**s and Russians. Problem solved.
or
4. She will see that your $500 per month is still $500 she won't make at the club, and will agree. Enjoy her blond Latina happiness. Problem solved.
I'd say you have about a 10% of getting #4.
To try to answer all questions raised in one fell swoop:
* yes I actually offered her the full champagne room price, to which she countered a little more, then I agreed. I thought that was actually the norm (or maybe I was just caught up in the lust, wasn't exactly concerned with haggling at that moment). My own mistake.
* I'm familiar with sugar'ing and was active on SA briefly. I agree 1k/mo allowance for NYC is really not much...I mean it's still possible to find a quality girl on that depending on how the girl perceives herself and what she wants out of the dynamics/what the guy can offer in addition to $; but I do think in this case the ship might be a bit far from shore on that, given I've already explicitly paid for sex twice; and we haven't exactly bonded intellectually and the tone has been purely sexual.
* no I don't think I'm in danger of RIL'ing. Honestly during the 2nd meet, I felt she was no longer a 9.5/10 (she was incredibly hard-bodied the first time, but gained a little waistline by the 2nd time...not that she isn't still hot) so I wasn't as "wow"ed by her like the first meet, but that's besides the point. I'm actually more a variety type of guy, it won't break my heart to never see this girl again--esp. since she never proactively reaches out to me, so I don't feel any emotional engagement because she's not even bothering to pretend to be emotionally invested in me--just that in the times we've met up it did feel like we both very much enjoyed it, so would be nice to find a way to experience that more often without me having to sacrifice all other "fun" budget-wise, and if it turns out she'd also be happy to be reimbursed less per meet yet paid much more overall through frequency, provided I can communicate that tactfully.
If folks are actually interested, I'll settle on the approach to take and report back on the outcome.
It's easy to lose sight of the value of money when clubbing in a place like NYC, but at the same time those girls have slow times too. If you timed it right, $500 for OTC should get you a lot of options in a lot of NYC clubs. Remember that these girls pay high house fees and big cuts to the clubs for CRs, so it's feast or famine for them. If you go shopping on a famine night, or even better, make arrangements so that they don't have to go to the club on what is likely to be a bad night, then you have a shot.
The ultimate problem though is your budget, which doesn't give you much ammunition for the exploration phase, where you spread a little money around in a couple of different clubs and work out your options. In NYC you aren't going to be able to buy too many rounds of drinks and LDs before you burn through several hundred, which means that your batting average would need to be perfect to pull it off for $1k per month. You might want to save up for a couple of months or, better still, explore more cost effective p4p options.
IMO part of the problem w/ many PLs is kinda letting the dancer call the shots in the negotiation - experienced dancers will usually exploit any vulnerability they see in a PL whether it'd be inexperience or any hesitation by the PL - this thread kinda smells as if the dancer smelled the desperation in the part of the PL and knew/felt she could squeeze-him - if one is unwilling/unable to overpay then one just needs to improve their game and stick to an offer they are comfortable-with as long as it's still a fair/worthwhile offer - sticking to a fair-offer vs a high-offer means one will score less but IME often times dancers with time will accept a sure fair offer over possibly not getting anything, but def there are dancers that will not come down from their high quotes and experienced PLs will usually just look for someone else.
Now granted he's far from alone in incorrectly assuming a correlation between ITC CR prices and a girl's OTC number. What he lacked was the same intel the other inexperienced types do when they make that mistake, including how much she actually keeps and how easy they are to sell. In Manhattan, she only gets 40-50% of the CR price and there is no guarantee that she will sell even one of those very expensive CRs on any given night, nevermind the two she'd need to earn what he paid her for OTC.
Add to all that roughly $200 that she needs to pay out to the club, DJ, makeup girl, house mom, etc., and what we get is a girl who has no guarantee of walking out with big bucks on any given night. Then along came NYCDance, who paid her decent NYC club shift money for one quick hour of her time.
NYCD, please don't take this the wrong way. We all go through a learning curve and there isn't a club hound here who didn't pay some tuition along the way. Just consider this part of the cost of your education and good luck.
And I still occasionally see guys on tuscl advise tying OTC price to CR price or whatever. I'd wouldn't be doing many OTCs if I did that. It's bad advice.
The hotel is cheaper than the CR price so it’s a good deal for the PL.
Only for guys foolish enough to follow any tusclers advice that ITC and OTC are tied together. I mean, I'm sure they're at least loosely tied together -- a girl making $1500/night probably won't take $300 for a multi-hour OTC. But generally speaking, I've never seen any direct link between ITC room prices and OTC.
The example is most stark here in SF, where everything is so expensive. Note that I never do one-hour OTCs -- it's always multi-hour eating, drinking, sexing, and sometimes she'll get drunk enough that she just crashes in the hotel room. Do I pay the $900 for a 1-hour no-extras champagne room, that it costs at the club I go to? Nope, never even paid $500.
I think guys are out-thinking themselves with the "she makes $X/hour ITC, so I have to offer her at least $X (times however many hours we'll be together) for OTC". There's a lot of reasons she might take much much less. It's a rookie mistake, and the tusclers who keep giving advice that these rates should be tied together, are giving bad advice
There are more than enough dancers who need money - and who are unable to keep up with the new hot girls. Rather than sucking off each guy in an extras club - I think a fair number would rather be in a consistent money making role - providing domestic help - and sexual services - to a divorced and financially comfortable 50 something guy.
I am on a lot of dancers facebooks; many are girls I met over the late 90s and early 00s. I can tell you, as a rule they do not end up marrying handsome guys. Some of the girls do age well, some obviously don't. But not uncommon for them, after dating "hot guys" in their early 20s, they end up with not so hot guys, with what look like blue collar jobs.
Then, of course, there's the occasional girl who scores a gig as a trophy wife :)
Bavarian, the key in your comment was not what she makes per hour, but rather that guys are actually willing to pay it consistently enough that she's earning very good shift money. As Sub rightly pointed out, if a girl is making $1,500 per shift, then she's not going out for short money. In fact, if she makes that much ITC without having to have sex, then she's probably not going to suck and fuck OTC for anything close to NYCD's $700 either.
The reason that NYCD is able to take her out for even $800 is that she is probably not selling CRs that easily ITC, nor do most girls who have to sell big ticket CRs. Even in places like NYC, dropping 6-800 on a CR is a big decision that most guys are going to pass on. In smaller market cities they are even tougher to sell. This includes my city, where one of my regular clubs has a CR that is a ghost town. As an aside, I think the goofballs who run P10 in Austin are learning this lesson now too, having recently gone to an expensive CR model.
Anyway, IME a more accurate number to peg it to is what she makes for an average shift. IME that is the dividing line for what it often takes for a girl to be willing to leave a club early, or skip a shift altogether, to get nasty with a guy in his hotel room. I suspect that $800 is a decent shift for NYCD's gal, which is why she considers this a fair amount to go fuck and suck him in his hotel room. The problem of course is that this is not an easy number to determine in many cases.
The other day, my CF made $900, which is really REALLY good for dayshift. I'm too lazy to figure out how big of a cut the club takes, but it's pretty significant -- let's say she gets to keep $650 of that, or $600 after tip-outs. I am pretty sure this is actually more than she would take home since the club is taking huge cuts now. So, she takes home $500-$600, for 8 hours of work. For that, she has to put up with the regular club bullshit of demeaning behavior from staff, sometimes very unpleasant stripper politics, and fighting off the stream of guys who exhaustingly waste her time, try to stick their fingers in her holes for $20, etc. The amount of physical and emotional energy, for 8 hours, for $500-$600, is very very high.
So me offering her $350 for an OTC might sound crazy. But when you factor in all of the above, *if* she finds me an easy and fun customer, it actually doesn't sound so bad anymore. And $900 is a huge amount for dayshift as far as gross revenue, there's lots of days she does half that.
I've found that her OTC number has absolutely nothing to do with ITC room prices, is only loosely related to her ultimate net takehome, but you also have to factor in the huge emotional drain being in the club is, and don't de-value how much she might appreciate being with one low-stress customer instead. So girls don't value that at all, but some value it a lot.