Comments by FONDL (page 37)

Yes, after my ATF quit dancing they did get old. She ruined it for me. I spent 8 years looking for something as good, didn't find it, then lost interest.

Chandler, I think the problem with both your and my generalizations about this is that these girls are all somewhat different and each relationship with them is different. Yes there are important generalizations that we should all be aware of, but like any generalization, there are always exceptions. And that's what makes it interesting. Three cheers for the exceptions.

Chandler, that's actually one of the characteristics of the LD factories that I'm most familiar with - they generally don't have separate VIP or private rooms, LDs are often done right out in the open or in a nearby dark corner of the main club. They're usually small places with few amentities. Other than the most important one of course.

Daid, one more time in case you missed it: clubs make money as much from the girls as they do from customers. One way or another, girls pay to work in most clubs. The more girls working, the more the club makes. And the fancier and bigger the club, the more true this often is. In most places it's not about quality, it's all about quantity. It's why I keep saying that the number of dancers is growing faster than the number of customers.

MIDancer, of course we're all dysfunctional idiots, why else would we be here? But the thing that puzzles me about the views often expressed there are that many of the girls seem to agree that (1) all their customers are jerks, and (2) yet they wonder why they don't make more money. They never seem to realize that maybe these two things are related. And if you suggest such a thing (as I once did) they'll argue with you vehemently. Anyway, I think there's a lot of insight in your post, I hope you stick around, we need different points of view. David, if you read the Pink site I think you'll find that most of the girls posting there work in larger fancier more upscale clubs. But it's my belief that most dancers work in places that aren't like that because there are many more downscale clubs than upscale ones. Which is why I think some of the views there aren't typical of dancers as a whole.

Let me add my welcome too, Taylor. I used to be friends with a Taylor (her dancer name) so I can relate. And I agree with Casualguy, if I had to guess I'd say that the average dancer is about 30, there are lots of girls working who are a whole lot older than that and doing very well. So if you don't want to dance anymore, that's fine, but don't feel you have to quit because of your young age. (I'm in my 60s - we have a bunch of old farts here.)

When I first met my ATF she had lots of piercings. Now, ten years later, she has very few (although there's one, sad to say, I have no way of knowing anymore whether or not it's still there.) It's just a phase based on her age, she's testing boundaries, trying to find out who she is. If that bothers you, stay away from 21 yo girls. Personally I find that sort of thing to be part of their attraction.

David, there are two separate issues here: the actual number of customers and the amount they are willing to spend (or if you prefer, the number of customers who are willing to spend a lot.) I don't think either one of those is growing as rapidly as is the number of dancers.

MIDancer, when guys here talk about contact, they typically mean fairly high contact, which is pretty common in a lot of clubs but, as you point out, frowned upon by most of the girls posting on SW. Which lead some of us to believe that the girls on SW aren't a representative sample of dancers in general. But if you say that there, as I once did, you will get strong disagreement.

Correction - my first sentence in my previous post should have read "I think the trend toward higher mileage, if there is on, is very regional."

David, that sounds like a good reason to avoid the "major upscale clubs" to me.

Casualguy, the problem I have with short term investing (which is an oxymoron if there ever was one) is that you are no longer betting on a business's performance, you're betting against other short term investors, many of whom have insider information. In other words it's a loser's game - long term investing is win-win, short term investing is win-lose. When I retired the first time I toyed with the idea of becoming a financial advisor and took the series 7 exam (and got a 93% on it.) I wouldn't touch things like options unless you plan on making studying the stock market a full time job. That's who you'll be betting against.

Book Guy, that one is easy. Find a girl who is unattached and needs money and isn't making a lot because she's a little lacking. Become her best customer. Complain that you don't like going to the club because they get too much of your money and you'd rather give it to her OTC. Buy condoms.

Casualguy, I agree with you, I think the trend toward higher mileage, if there is one. The high mileage places that I know of have always been that way. But other people here seem to have a different experience. So it must depend on where you are.

Tara, let me elaborate. We're a bunch of old guys (some older than others) who have been talking to each other here for years and most of us have never met. Shadowcat was kind enough to offer to set a meeting for anyone who can make it. The actual date came about because at one point I mentioned to Shadowcat that I'm planning to be passing through the area on that date and hoped to meet him, except now I'm not sure I will be there and will thus feel like a total shit if I miss it. So if you'd like to join us as a fellow customer we'd be more than happy to have you do so. But it's probably not worth your while to do so as a dancer. In spite of what Shadowcat says, some of us (like me) are pretty cheap.

I usually only ever had one favorite club or dancer at a time. Having more than one costs more than I was ever willing to spend on strip clubbing.

DougS, my advice to you is DO NOT attempt to remove money from the equation with your ATF. If you are helping her in a time of need, and then stop doing so, she will resent it and resent you. The only way you can stop is if someday she no longer needs that help. If you care about this girl, stop worrying that money is part of the attraction, just keep doing what you've been doing, as long as you can afford it and are enjoying it. My ATF used to have another older gentleman friend similar to me. She tried to keep the friendship going after she quit her club (where she had been waitressing) because she really liked this guy. But he was concerned that she expeced him to continue giving her money and made a point of telling her that. That ended their relationship. And she still talks about him sometimes because she really liked him. All relationships are based on people filling each other's needs. If you are filling a need for someone else, then choose to no longer do so, you stand a very good chance of ending the relationship, regardless of what that need happens to be. Once you start filling someone's need, that becomes an integral part of your relationship. You can't change the rules in the middle of the game.

Since I've already alluded to it a bit, let me describe my experience with SW. I actually discovered it here, someone made reference to it on TUSCL and I asked what it was. That was 3-4 years ago. I started reading it and subsequently became a regular contributor for a year or so. Once the novelty wore off, I quickly lost ineterst in reading the complaints about customers and similar BS - as Chandler says, who wants to hear that? - and rarely posted in those kinds of threads once I discovered that most of my interest was in 2 other areas: club chat and customer conversation. I had extended private discussions with about a dozen different girls who were looking for info on specific clubs on club chat, which resulted in several of them moving to the club I was then frequenting and I even met one of them. But these were mostly newbies looking for help, not the regular contributors. I also sometimes gave opinions on questions asked on customer conversation. And I did this for over a year without any prblems. Then one day I disagreed with the prevailing view on a general social issue that has nothing to do with strippers or stripping, and all hell broke lose. Specifically I posted a conservative view where the previous posters all had expressed the PC liberal view. Nobody disagreed with my logical arguments (and I doubt any of them were intelligent enought to do so) but they sure did attack me personally. And ever since then anything I posted anywhere on that site met with the same personal attacks, mostly from a male dj whose status I obviously threatened - he regards himself as the intellectual leader of that board, if you can imagine that. And since I was becoming bored with the site anyway, instead of arguing with this idiot I just stopped posting there. I've probably only visited that site once in the past year. And that was once too often. What I find especially interesting about this entire episode is that we had the exact same social discussion here at about the same time, and I posted the exact same conservative comments following someone else's liberal views. And nobody attacked me personally. The level of discourse here remained courteous and intelligent. And I think that points up the biggest difference between SW and TUSCL's discussion boards. People here are generally interesting, amusing, intelligent, respectful of each other, and tolerant of differences of opinion. I found none of that on stripper web. I won't be back.

Also meant to add that some girls get very nervous about having a regular for an extended period of time, especially if he spends all his money on her, and sooner or later will look for an excuse to end it.

I've never been fired that I'm aware of. But then I've never gotten cheap on a regular either, I always keep in mind that she's working and I expect to pay her for the time she spends with me. And, like Chandler, I've never gone overboard in giving a girl a lot of money in the first place. I'm not cheap but I always have been fairly frugal. A girl who expects guys to give her big bucks is never going to become my regular in the first place.

Here's my take on this subject. I think the number of dancers is growing faster than the number of customers, which is making it harder for many dancers to make money. This is a trend that's been going on for many years but may have recently gotten worse. I think a lot of dancers are responding by doing extras, and managments are increasingly allowing it because their competition is doing so and they don't want to lose customers. I think customers as well as dancers have become much more casual about sex (the ho-ification of America). Sex is much more readily available. A lot of guys expect the same in strip clubs. And are less willing to spend money just to watch girls dance naked. The economy may have some influence especially in specific regions where it's particiularly weak. But most places the economy is a pretty minor factor in all this. It's other social trends that are much more important.

"FONDL: Stop talking about me like I'm not here." Yoda, you haven't been here in months, then out of nowhere you make one silly post that makes no sense, criticizing the rest of us. Yes I assume you're not here. "You got dismantled by the women on the pink site so I don't expect you to think much of Stripperweb ..." Not true Yoda, the only person I had a real problem with over there was a guy, some silly ass DJ who thought his vast experience made him an expert on everything. The day I need advice from a loser strip club DJ I'll go kill myself. "... but you, like many, miss the entire point of the site. It's not there for you, it's there for dancers." Again not true. I've probably gotten emails from more than a dozen different women on that site asking me for more information about one of my posts, and have had extensive exchanges with several of them who were looking for advice. I only post there when someone asks a question and I have information that I think will be useful to them. Many of them seem to agree that my information was helpful. I never bother reading the sections where they are just talking to each other. Yoda, if you enjoy that site, by all means continue participating there. But don't come here with your facts all wrong and tell us we're whining about it when we poke fun at them. You're the only one I hear whining.

Seems to me that a major difference between here and there is that we all enjoy making fun of ourselves and each other and it's rare that anyone gets mad. There they take themselves way too seriously, don't allow poking fun at any one especially themselves, and don't have a sense of humor. So what happened to Yoda, who put the bug up his ass? He and I used to have fun teasing each other. But he seems to have lost his sense of humor and, much like some people on the Pink site, is taking this stuff way too seriously. I personally thought Book Guy's opening post here was hilarious, one of the funniest things here in a long time. And the responses have been equally funny. Apparently he's the only one who didn't think so. I wonder why?

I agree with Chandler about the complaints department. I think if most dancers felt that all their customers were total assholes they'd quit and go do something else. There just aren't that many people who are going to keep working at a job they absolutely hate. There are too many other options in our society.

Minnow, Mons may not be a good example, I haven't been there in many years so I don't remember it very well. It's just my impression that guys go there specifically for the good LDs, which you can't get in a lot of clubs. I used Mons as my example instead of other LD factories like Choo Choo's or Wagon Wheel because more people here are familiar with it. But my point is that I think the defining characteristic of an LD factory is that it's a place where the main attraction is the high contact LDs, that's why most customers go to the place. In most LD factories there's no pretense that you're there for any other reason, eg. to drink or talk or watch the stage show. Those things may exist but they're not the main attraction. I also agree with Chandler that I probably didn't originate the term, it's impossible to pin down who originates a term like that. But I do think I may have been the first person to use it here. I don't recall seeing it before I began using it as one of my primary classifications of SCs in a thread several years ago where we tried to define the various types of clubs out there.