Dancer Desperation

This has nothing to do with financial difficulties - it's a trend that has been evolving for a number of years, girls are just getting sluttier.

And not just in clubs. In high school now, "the thing" is for girls to shave "porn style"... not to mention how much more advanced sexually they are. Check out a current prom some time (especially for black high schools) and you'll see grinding worthy of a VIP room. It's not such a huge step from being in AP English class at 17 to straddling a regular for FS in VIP at 18.

It's the ho-ification of America, and we the customers are it's beneficiaries.

O.

I haven't seen this trend because I only go to strip clubs, not bordellos. Some of you guys obviously do the opposite.

But I do think that O has it right about the ho-ification of America. TV, movies and the print media have glorified sex so much that it's apparently no longer taboo to most young people, it's become the in thing to do. Frankly I think that's sad.

That is one hell of a table dance. Rent must have been due.

True its a multi-year trend, chicks becoming sluttier in general, but I think it has become much more noticeable recently, particularly after this (slower than usual) summer in certain locales, which is probably connected to a (most likely) start of a real estate downturn led recession. Now of course business may yet still pickup as cold weather hits, and if it does, many of these girls can throttle back a bit.

However to cite some situations: one case: a (formerly) clean (except typical high contact state boob and ass grabbing/kissing) 8.5 level girl with shrinking earnings that is now definitely doing HJ's complains about the new girl (7 level) at the club who is doing 25 dollar dances combined with 20 dollar blowjobs. At another club drop dead gorgeous stunning 10 level girl formerly 100% (except usual boobs and ass grabbing/kissing) clean now allowing mouth kissing and light fingering now complaining about a girl permitting complete digital insertions. Very pretty 9 level young girl who hates asking and getting turned-down for dances decides to skip bulk of high volume "wanna dance" solicticing, and instead focuses on targeting suit types or other presumed types with large sums of cash - for FS right in the club or OTC

Each category of dancer is ratcheting it up to either attract new regulars or to retain old ones that might walk, or with one girl just to go for the big score for the day. If a real recession hits, its going to get very interesting

Seems to me that if the girls are racheting it up it's largely because club management is allowing them to do so. As far back as I can remember I frequently encountered dancers who wanted to do more than the club would allow. The limiting factor was usually what the club allowed, not what the girl was willing to do. So maybe the biggest change is that many clubs now think they can allow more, which would indicate that legal enforcement has become more lax in many areas.

I have noticed more extras from dancers, but it is always hard for me to separate that out from what you get just from being a regular. In other words, are the girls getting sluttier overall, or is it just that they are more comfortable with me, so I get offered more?

3 different things occuring 1. macro trend - women getting sluttier each year and each decade 2. micro - tightening economy in some regions pushing it up a bit along with management bringing in more low-cost sluts 3. the natural progression in some ATF situations, and that of course could interrelate with the economy and whether they believe customers might walk otherwise

"club management is allowing them to do so"

What I've noticed is that certain clubs make sure they now and then fire certain women (e.g new hires) that they conveniently catch in the full service or at times BJ act - however its all for show, and the bouncers must know the deal also. Its clearly something to use as part of a future defense should vice charges be brought. "We were cleaning it up using best efforts and acting at all times in good faith, and here's some examples" - because its never the super-established big earners

FONDL, I find this interesting. At most of the clubs I've been to there are limits that have been in place for years. In the past few years I've been to a few clubs with looser rules. While those rules are looser they've stayed fairly consistent. One thing that struck me most about Partner's Tavern, and perhaps you could tell me if it was always thus, was how absolutely casual everyone was about what you could expect in the VIP with well over half the dancers. In my experience what a dancer will do is heavily influenced by what she can get away with in the club, which usually translates to how vigilant the club wants to be. Of course to an extent that will determine who is willing to dance there, but at some point there was a first dancer doing FS in the VIP and getting away with it.

I think others have identified the factors (micor and macro). I can only relate the trends in Phoenix, where I am enough of a regular to spot it.

The big trend over the past year has been in sorting out the good clubs from the bad. A group of clubs that previously occupied the middle ground, in terms of girl quality, have lost mnay of their better looking girls. The few better culbs seem to be gaining girls. My theory is the good girls are in search of the money, and there is less of it available.

As for the dance mileage, it has gotten better in the past year. Again, I would like to think it is my ever-increasing charm and good looks, but my big brain tells me it's probably about the competition for cash.

On a bigger scale, I have noticed more reviews recently in TUSCL that mention ITC extras. On the one hand, this is encouraging even if you don't want extras, as the mileage will be negotiable. On the other hand, I wish some of the reviewers would cool it, so as not to encite LE to take action. (Which begs another question bandied about recently...does LE care what we say here?)

Here's my take on this subject. I think the number of dancers is growing faster than the number of customers, which is making it harder for many dancers to make money. This is a trend that's been going on for many years but may have recently gotten worse.

I think a lot of dancers are responding by doing extras, and managments are increasingly allowing it because their competition is doing so and they don't want to lose customers.

I think customers as well as dancers have become much more casual about sex (the ho-ification of America). Sex is much more readily available. A lot of guys expect the same in strip clubs. And are less willing to spend money just to watch girls dance naked.

The economy may have some influence especially in specific regions where it's particiularly weak. But most places the economy is a pretty minor factor in all this. It's other social trends that are much more important.

The "ho-ification of America" factor is very very gradual, a very gentle but relentless downward slope arguably beginning a little more than 40 years ago, when usage of the pill (invented in 1960) started to become commonplace.

As for the economic issue in certain regions, that is happening much more suddenly or people's perceptions of that, and we will know the answer to that (in terms of strip club spending) probably within 60 to 90 days. The big problem strippers say is the big spenders don't seem to be very common any more. Now that could be standard SS. In any case big spending can be very counter-productive because the dancers become addicted to it very quickly. I am personally working on becoming a very erratic spender with a pattern no single dancer could ever figure out, varying ATF deals much more, and a part-time cheapskate in certain clubs, because when I've dropped large sums especially on specific girls over a period of time these same girls tend to ratchet up the SS to new levels - which is very counterproductive for both the customer and dancer longer term

Maybe I'm going to the wrong clubs. I haven't noticed any increase in mileage. In fact it has decreased for me. Bouncers walking around making sure nothing is going on and hidden cameras were installed several months ago. I'm even paying more from two hot dancers than I would normally pay any dancer. However I don't or didn't expect to keep seeing the one and now two very hot dancers and for them to be offering me 2 for $40 lap dances. That's 10 to 20 more than I pay any other dancer. The one dancer called me a good businessman acting like I was getting a real good deal from her. Maybe she's used to getting more money since I believe she's either a 9 or 10 on the looks scale. However if I'm spending my money on better looking dancers, I'm not going to have much left for other dancers and it does seem like I have been seeing lots of dancers in the clubs lately.

Up in the northeast the trend I'm continual noticing is 9 and 10 level girls, telling me they're business is way way off from one year ago. Mere hours ago I was (1st time at this club)in a small but very nice club talking (and dancing) with a very young tall/slender/shapely/natural C/stunning 9.5 level (non-brazilian and perfect english)latina dancer, in a club almost empty (6 dancers rotating on stage) for most of the 1.5 hrs I was there. Normally one would think Thursday afternoon would be a bit busy. Actually at one point I was the only customer in the club, with even the 2 dollar stage pervs having left the club. She explained how much of her business was off over the past year or so, and she had some concern whether things would get worse. I may not call her "desperate" but I would call her concerned, because she told me her lifestyle was very good up to this point and was not sure how much that would continue, and this at an age when many young adults would only be in their 2nd year of college. No stripper persona, no smoke breath (a non-smoker), very pleasent and conversational, and an exceeedingly sensual and close-in dance, and very very appreciative to have a paying (more than 2 dollar) customer coming into the club. As others know, it can alot of fun running into such dancers.

Casualguy, I agree with you, I think the trend toward higher mileage, if there is one. The high mileage places that I know of have always been that way. But other people here seem to have a different experience. So it must depend on where you are.

Modifying someone's earlier thoughts maybe "the number of dancers is growing faster than the number of customers who actually have discretionary cash" Foot traffic sometimes can be high, yet often few if any are spending, and that can be very evident when hardly anyone is using the private dance/VIP area in a club - except for you (of course) Let's face it, strip clubs in theory can be rock bottom priced entertainment if 1. avoids covers by coming the right time 2 says no to private dances 3. and if super cheap - staying away from the tip rail

Correction - my first sentence in my previous post should have read "I think the trend toward higher mileage, if there is on, is very regional."

David, there are two separate issues here: the actual number of customers and the amount they are willing to spend (or if you prefer, the number of customers who are willing to spend a lot.) I don't think either one of those is growing as rapidly as is the number of dancers.

However don't clubs have foot traffic/dancer ratio guidelines (or similar methods) which they take into account when determining optimal staff levels? Now I realize most dancers have either 2 to 4 mandatory (scheduled/must show) days and other days they can show at their option - so there can be swings in the day to day dancer inventory level, however management can still limit the amount of dancers on a general basis, so they don't end up with lots of girls spreading the money so thin the turnover picks up. Not every girl that wants to dance can be "hired" (supposedly as an indep contractor) to dance, so the supply of dancers is controlled to a degree

Are you under the impression that strip clubs are run by Harvard MBAs?

Daid, one more time in case you missed it: clubs make money as much from the girls as they do from customers. One way or another, girls pay to work in most clubs. The more girls working, the more the club makes. And the fancier and bigger the club, the more true this often is. In most places it's not about quality, it's all about quantity. It's why I keep saying that the number of dancers is growing faster than the number of customers.

I went to a club in Kansas a few weeks ago. A dancer sat down, 7/10, started chatting. Tried to sell VIP access, where we "could talk and see what else happens back there." I eventually bought - $20 vip access, $60 tip, one of her FIRST questions was "do you want to cum?"

Huh? Wow. First time ever in the club. OK, umm, no thanks. Wound up unzipped and nosing into the hangar. FS was absolutely on the menu.

I'm not really a "regular" or "hobbyist." I've heard of such things, but I figured you'd have to spend $$$$ and build trust with the girl, DJ, staff, etc - absolutely not the case, in this case. I'm not a lap-dance guy, either, I think I've bought 4 or 5 in 15 years.

JC

"FS was absolutely on the menu."

Unbelievable and I can this, that if this economy unhinges any more, its going to get real interesting for patrons still left with some cash, although I'm usually happy just with a sexy girl grinding that ass into a frenzy

I'm wondering if more people are staying home due to economics or it was just the local football team losing big time. I guess it's not all bad if you have a night that partially sucks, you still have most of your money to try your luck on another night. I can always visit a former too busy to visit club to get the same level of dancers and typical strip club experience. When a club drops down to only a dozen or so customers during the busy time of night and there are only a few dancers showing up, it doesn't seem as exciting to me especially if all other things remain the same.

FS "talking points" I've noticed some dancers use, that I believe are becoming a bit more common these days, a pitch used to cerain men, particularly if they've seen you dropping large sums for regular dances with other girls over many weeks or months.

1. "Imagine..I just need X amount more for this evening." Lowest I've heard was $250 (slutty little tramp) and up to 700 dollars (quite beautiful although not blessed with brains)

2. "Gee I get tested every 3 months", or "once month" with one - "one always wants to be safe"

Still I would estimate about 90% of dancers at upscales clubs will not go near FS,(except maybe for many 1000's of course) and its precisely the reason they are dancing instead of escorting. Most chicks simply don't want to be WHORES

I think most chicks who are dancing are doing so instead of escorting simply because it's a long and mildly slippery slope and, therefore, you're more likely to encounter people at the entry end of the slope than anywhere else. Especially if you go to a dance club. Full-blown "I escort, I will provide X service for Y dollars" prostitution is not just an act, it's an admission of a certain status in life. It's a type of self-awareness. Simple "I am a dancer" which includes also escort-style-behavior doesn't require that change in self-awareness, at least not initially, of the dancers, and also is a ladder which can be ascended or descended at will. Less slippery.

I've been hitting clubs for 20+ years. IMHO, there's WAY more extras being offered than before. I never found it at first, and now I find it all over. Granted, it really depends on the city and/or club. Detroit, St. Louis, even Minneapolis. Plenty of fun to be found.

john80202c, I'd REALLY appreciate it if you'd let me know the club in Kansas you went to. I go there a lot and haven't found anything "fun" there at all......

Mileage definitely sky-rocketed here. A poorer economy, emergence of the hip-hop generation, and oxycontin addictions seemed to be the bigget factors.

I'm not sure if it was a case of dancer desperation, or what, but one of my good friends (another long time clubber, and TUSCL contributer) related a story to me. One of his favs recently confided in him that she is stringing along a PL. To this point in time, I thought of her as being totally upfront and pretty much free of spewing stripper shit.

I'm still thrashing thoughts in my mind about how a dancer that seemed to have been nothing but honest with her customers, could also be capable of "playing the game" and leading a PL along. That, to be honest, shakes the very foundation of my beliefs that I've developed from experience and all of the reading and discussion on TUSCL. I know there are dancers that abuse their control over us patrons, and I know there are dancers that do NOT play those games, but now we are seeing evidence of dancers that do both - who knows WHAT criteria they use to decide which role they take for a particular customer.

We all know there needs to be some acting that goes into their usual "performance", but up until now, I thought that once I pegged a dancer as being a player, or as being a "what-you-see-is-what-you-get" dancer, it would be status quo. Not so, obviously.

That, as always, brings me back to thinking about my ATF, and another aspect that is bothering me. Also, it brings me back to the dancer desperation. I can see that a lot of the dancers need financial support, and it seems like dancers can be swayed to do things that they normally wouldn't do, because of their situations. It's not much of a stretch of the imagination that if things were especially tight financially, and some guy comes to the club with a lot of money - maybe even a guy that a dancer is attracted to - that the dancer might find herself doing things that she would never have dreamed that she would do, just out of desperation. If I were in their place, I certainly would be tempted...

From everthing that I've seen, heard and experienced with my ATF (including reports that I've received from fellow TUSCLers that have known her and experienced her dances), she is a clean dancer... no rule bending, no extras... She has been a tower of virtue in the hotel with me, other than heavy kissing - ('course that could indicate that I am a repulsive PL to her, that she is stringing along!). With her going through a divorce, and looking for a new house, combined with a loser ex- that is not giving her any money, either.... How much more desperate would she have to be to take that small step into providing extras... or outright sex OTC?

During one of our conversations, when I was pressing her on where I stood... she said that she would NEVER take advantage of me (meaning financially - not sexually, I assumed [grin]). She has been known to "cut off" customers that developed feelings for her which she could not reciprocate. She has told me that the few times that she has asked me for money, it was because she had no where else to turn. She continued saying that there are a lot of people (assuming guys) that she could ask for money, but they all want one thing from her, and she's not going to do that. It sounded good at the time.

Now, thinking back on what she said, I don't feel so good about it... to me, it sounds like she could be close to taking that step... >>I<< am not helping things out by making her feel guilty about taking money from me, even though I told her not to feel that way, that it was okay. The next time she gets into a bind, would she be less likely to call me for help and more likely to take that step and get money from some other guy for doing something with him?

Damn! I know better than to think I have found a nice normal relationship in a club. I THINK I've found something special, but there's so much baggage that comes with it, I don't know if it's worth it. It comes back to the question I've asked MANY times... How in the hell can we ever know - FOR SURE - where we stand with these girls. Even if somehow a relationship become a serious "thing", how can I be sure it's more than just security, money and stability to her, rather than love. And does it even matter?

It's a crazy, complicated, f^cked up world.

Hi DougS,

A few quick thoughts. There is such a thing as situational morality. Would you feel bad about ripping off a crook that preys on hardworking people especially if you desperately need money to provide for your family. What about where a hoodlum steals your money and the police just take it as a big joke because they too busy doing important work like drug busts and sex stings. Would you mind stealing your money back from the hoodlum plus extra to compensate you for all the hoodlum has put you through?

As far as sexually chastise dancers are you going to have less interest in her if you know she'll spread her legs to avoid extreme financial hardship? If so, then I suggest you start moving along. BTW, a hooker who thinks nothing of spreading her legs for every Tom, Dick, and Harry, may be throughly disgusted by the idea of kissing her customer. She might rather endure severe financial pain than go that low.

BTW, it doesn't surprise even a little that a normally good dancer might be very aggressive with someone she felt was a true scum bag. Actually, I'm very surprised dancers are as nice and honest as they are.

"How in the hell can we ever know -FOR SURE- where we stand with these girls." That seems true of any person. You don't know -FOR SURE-. Remember the BTK (Bind Torture and Kill) vermin who was with the church and upstanding member of the community blah, blah, blah?

Correction: Chaste.

JaBlake: Definitely you have some good points there... In answer to your question, if I knew "she would spread her legs in order to avoid extreme financial hardship" would I lose interest. Yeah, I'd have to say I couldn't handle that. I have a hard enough time handling that she's dancing, but I view it (as does she) as a "temporary" thing until she can survive without it. Is that shallow of me? Perhaps, but it would also mean that she'd been lying to me, and would also indicate her true lack of interest in me - otherwise, why wouldn't she have permitted me further access to her. THAT, though, is kind of a catch-22. Had she allowed things to progress further than they have, I'd probably think less of her and lose respect and trust in her. To that, one could see where if she is playing "the game", she would know that to keep me in her clutches, she couldn't do those things with me.

See... another vicious circle of thought.

Vicious circle of thought are normal; at least for me.

I think it was CNN that reported 40% or 60% or some other large number of women would spread their legs for $10,000. Assuming that is true, then I would think it would mainly be those women who because of poor financial health saw $10,000 as a lot of money.

Years ago a lady friend with a fairly decent income spread her legs for a wealthy old man for $20,000. In a way I contributed because I explained to her reasons why he might reasonably view her as so much more valuable than a high class escort. And, $20,000 to the old man was pretty much pennies considering his wealth. The lady friend thought it just dumb of him because you stick it in for a few minutes and that is worth $20,000? Or, even if she pleasured him for the whole night is that worth $20,000? She felt he was buying nothing. She did intend to do an excellent job and give him as much of a GFE as possible if that is what he was looking for. In fact, it was exactly what he wanted. End result 2 happy campers.

Anyway, how many men would do the nasty for $5,000? 90%? Yes, there is a double standard and imo there should be.

BTW, DougS,

Few people can do it "correctly," but you might try and put yourself in her shoes. By, "correctly" I mean most people believe that if they like something then of course the other person feels the same way. For example, if Tom thinks winning millions of dollars in the lottery or being given millions is wonderful, then of course Sue or Mary or whoever MUST feel the same way. It would never occur to Tom because of culture or religion or whatever the other people may feel the exact opposite e.g. money is the root of all evil. Or, as some people would say, I believe wrongly, lack of money is the root of all evil.

Stealing is wrong? Oh really? In what universe are you living? Yep, there are people whose value system doesn't seem to compute unless somehow you can really try and put yourself in their shoes. It may still not compute, but you may gain a much greater appreciation of where they're coming from.

To tell you the truth although there is a imo a huge difference between stripping and traditional street walking or escorting there isn't that much difference imo between stripping with high contact and stripping where FS or BJs are offered to select known clients. Again, that is just imo. You may see a great moral divide. I see mainly a health divide.

JaBlake: I agree with you. I agree that there isn't too much of a difference between high contact and performing extras. That is why I am thinking that it's an easy step for a dancer to take when she has a bit of desperation. If she's in a financial crunch, or if she sees that it's only the dancers that do the extras who are making the money, then it SEEMS like a dancer's thought process would be "I'm already letting guys touch me, and I'm already rubbing him through his pants so how much worse is it for me to slide my hand inside his pants and give him a HJ?"

I'm also saying that I don't blame a dancer that takes that step. Where I WOULD have a problem is if my ATF has taken that step, or takes it at some point in the future. Maybe if I were to find out that she has taken that step, or takes that step in the future, maybe I, like you said, need to put myself in her shoes and be more understanding.

After all, when I shine the light back onto me, I know that >>I<< am guilty of giving in and receiving extras. Other than pleasure I'm not getting anything out of it... in fact I'm even PAYING for it in most cases. That, I guess, makes me a WHOLE lot worse than a dancer that is struggling to keep her kids fed and sheltered.

Hi DougS,

I wouldn't worry too much about getting taken and see that as part of the process. That is true in other relationships as well. My concern would be limiting the damage to what you would consider an acceptable level.

I get chewed out by most people when I normally shrug at small theft. I shrug because it is small--the it's the principle nonsense would have impressed me decades ago. Not even a twitch of agreement now. Some people have the knack for finding good in others (not me, generally) and I think their reward is inner peace and happiness.

I was talking with a dancer that it seems like I've known forever and she really gets hyper in a negative way about prostitution i.e. FS. She did it way back when she was young and pregnant and didn't like it at all. She wouldn't consider a HJ as being prostitution because to her it just isn't very intimate like she considers sexual intercourse to be. Likewise she just doesn't consider grinding with clothing on as being intimate.

As far as you're "being a WHOLE lot worse than a dancer that is struggling to keep her kids fed and sheltered," I don't necessarily see that either.

Imagine a dancer who views sex like a typical young male i.e. will screw pretty much anything. That makes her bad? In your belief system it may and actually that belief system may be fine and dandy.

On my father's side of the family women were held to a much higher set of standards and were considered the foundation of the family. The man's job was to protect and provide. Nowadays the women is supposed to be Ms. Rambo playing war games in the Middle East and other parts of the empire. My views are a tad more old fashioned, but kudos to the young men view women with total equality. No reason for a man to work to support his family if the woman can hustle her body and make more money. Beats risking for her life and limbs for some silly stupid government project any day of the week, imo.