Ffucking NYC strippers. She wants me to buy her dinner first before OTC can be arranged. Even in the fucking boroughs, the girls are more pretentious than most anywhere else in the country.
I had a standard routine of taking dancers to dinner before I'd ask them for more intimate OTC activities. It was my idea. Not there's. It worked great. Made them feel at ease before going into full OTC. Why are you reluctant?
Rickyboy projecting himself onto strippers now? If there is a more pretentious ass wipe than you on TUSCL, I will resign my account and have the founder delete me.
On a serious note, I don't see what rickdugan's issue is. It seems like there are two solutions. One is just take her to dinner at a moderately priced venue. Someplace where dinner and a glass or two of wine for two people will be $100 to $150 (outside of Manhattan I'd say $75 to $100).
Worst case scenario he pays a bit for dinner and it flames out.
The other alternative is to move on. After all, I have a hard time believing that this is the first request for dinner he's had, assuming he actually does pick up strippers as much as he claims. It's not like dinner is a ridiculous request, like "give me credit cards for a shopping trip".
I love restaurant dates with dancers! What's the problem? If you don't want to take her out, how much fun could she be in bed? Move on, or make a reservation and enjoy.
Color me confused by the "no problem" responses here, but this would likely be a non-starter for me as well. Dinner as *part* of the OTC activities? Hell yeah. Making dinner a requirement before we even *start* talking about how much she's going to charge to fuck me, suck me and eat my cum? No thank you.
gmd, put me in the "no problem" category too, though I realize dinner-first definitely doesn't match the needs of you guys with an all-business (or rather, all-sex) agenda. For myself, I wouldn't have asked her about OTC if I already didn't like her personally (or at least her in-club persona) and enjoy spending time with her, in fact I don't ask about OTC until I've seen her a few times in the club already, so even if the negotiations didn't work out, I'd enjoy dinner and the post-dinner drinking (we'd definitely be going out drinking). Plus, again, I've seen her in the club a few times already and so already made a bit of an investment, the time and money for dinner is nothing even if it doesn't work out... but I don't mind at all if a girl wants to get an OTC sense for me before deciding.
I'm in the "What's the problem?" camp, too. I'm really not an OTC guy, but I've had a couple of dinners with dancers just because I like their company and enjoy seeing (and being seen with) a beautiful young woman.
I hear you rick my friend. Bitches be too demanding. Remember that tiger hooker we both fucked during our Thailand trip? She was all "bring me a little hairless ape baby to eat before we fuck" and I just hit her upside with my paw and said "bitch, my buddy rick is doing you before we have dinner".
Then we ran off without giving her a baby to eat or even paying her. Good times!
I can see the problem – he wants sex – not a date – where many seem to prefer it the other way around.
I'm kinda surprised it was her idea – it seems often times it is the custy's idea – I'm normally under the impression dancers prefer to get their $$$ in as little time and effort involved as possible; i.e. I'm under the impression if it's dinner + sex for $X or just sex for $X; that they would just choose just sex at it involves less of their time.
What crosses my PL mind is that perhaps she is still trying to feel out Dugan and thus the dinner in a public non-SC environment to feel him out (e.g. is he a jerk; is he potentially dangerous; etc).
And although Dugan is too experienced for this to happen to him – a while back I read a review of a guy whom arranged OTC for $400 for dinner and sex; paid the dancer; dancer takes $$$; has dinner with the custy; and then tells the custy the $400 was just for the dinner date.
papi--> "I can see the problem – he wants sex – not a date – where many seem to prefer it the other way around."
Paps, I think the fact that you'd call this a "date" is the core issue. To me, dinner with a stripper isn't a "date", any more than dinner with my coworker (who, I assure you, I do not want to fuck, even though he does have pretty big tits) is a date, or dinner with my kids is a date. Just like dinner with my coworker is just dinner with my coworker, dinner with a stripper is just that -- eating and drinking with a chick who I love looking at, and enjoy talking to, and side bonus, I get super turned on eating and doing shots and flirting and touching her, so I'm aching for her by the time we hit the bed.
Again, I totally realize that not all guys like or want this. And I also realize that for some guys, going to dinner with a stripper IS a date, and IS treating them like a girlfriend, at least in their minds. I'm guessing for most guys who have been around for a while, it's just dinner... with a crazy hot young chick ... who they'll later have sex with.
I think you're right in that it's like a feeling-out tactic to gauge if she feels safe with him. The fact that she's risking an hour of her time, with a customer, probably means the odds are good -- she thinks it's more likely than not she'll eventually get paid for the night.
Papi--> "I'm under the impression if it's dinner + sex for $X or just sex for $X; that they would just choose just sex at it involves less of their time."
That only exists in StripperWeb. In the real world, while there are certainly girls like that, I can say my experience is that it's pretty easy to find strippers who will opt for the former. Just more reason for me to think that SW is either the worst-of-the-worst hustlers, or lots of poseurs, or most likely, both.
Papi - "I'm under the impression if it's dinner + sex for $X or just sex for $X; that they would just choose just sex at it involves less of their time."
Could have been just part of their hustle but the vast majority of strippers I take out genuinely seem to have a good time. Most seem in no hurry for the night to end and want to continue partying after dinner. It is like they don't get taken out much. I could just be fucking delusional too.
L_W: Absolutely my experience, very consistently, over years of doing this. It doesn't mean she wants you to be her boyfriend, or even that she would ever think about socializing with you outside of a paid OTC gig. But SW denials notwithstanding, it's pretty common for the strippers themselves to make suggestions around dinner, going together to a strip club, etc., and obviously be in absolutely no rush to go home. If it's a hustle, it's a weird one ... tacking 3-4 hours on what could be an otherwise pretty short OTC
I thought you spent thousands of dollars on a stripper just talking to her. At least you may get a good steak along with your blue balls. Fucking dumbass
I am not a fan of car keys and wallet dating. But on the other hand, I know that sometimes it is necessary to meet with people outside of their or my home.
When dealing with women, it is not always possible to just say, "Lets go fuck". Even when I have a van, I know that it will not always be possible to use it as intended.
But also, I always approach women as civilians, no exception. So it would be impossible for me to ever be in the situation you are in, where a girl is refusing OTC negotiations until I take her to dinner. This is because I never would have started OTC negotiations in the first place. If they were started, they would have been started by her.
What I have done in strip clubs is to gently start taking dirty to dancers, and moving gently into it, explain how I want to take them home with me and have sex with them. But it is put more as a hypothetical, something to happen at some unspecified future time, and it only gets graphic later on. Initially it is done with polite euphemisms and talking about how I want to hold her and enjoy every inch of her all night long. Things like that.
Once in a while they reject this. But most of the time they come to want me to deliver, right then, or when their shift gets off. Most of the time this is with girls who don't do P4P OTC.
So when I was married this was impossible. So when I didn't deliver, they got pissed about having their chain pulled.
Now I am involved in other stuff, and that takes up all of my public and personal life.
But in general I have found that girls respond well to guys who do not talk to them as though they are hookers. It doesn't really matter if they are hookers or not, they respond well when they are treated as though they aren't.
I mean this is also just good negotiating tactics. Sex does not need to cost money. It only costs money if both parties agree to do it that way. So rather than trying to offer money, it is best to try and get her to agree to have sex. If she still wants money, she can make that known and the pricing should be more reasonable.
In AMPs I usually get mind blowing GFE-FS, when the usual menu is just HJ or non-GFE-FS. And most guys pay more than I do.
This is because these guys are lying there naked on the table and offering the girl money to try and persuade her. Girls have explained all of this to me, and I read the narratives in the RubMaps reviews.
I NEVER do this. Even if the girl is reluctant and seems intent on holding to NO, I never ever mention a single word about money.
First I want her to agree in principle to fucking. Then if she wants money, we will set it up.
Sometimes she never mentions money, so when we are done I will just hand her the friend price.
If future times when I really am looking to set girls up as my mistresses, then I will be handing them money with some story about how I want to take care of them, so that it is not seen as a payment or a brush off fee. Rather it is that I want her to be involved with me, calling me on the phone, wanting to come over, etc.
I don't lie on my back and offer money. Most of the time I'll have DFKed her before my clothes have even come off. That is safer for her because naked aggression carries a risk of unwelcomed BBFS. Clothed aggression is better. More like in the movies.
If she goes for DFKing, then I'll sit her down on my lap and get more friendly with her, and just let it escalate.
If she wants money, she will ask. If not, she will get the friend price at the end.
Usually even the girls who initially refused and insisted on massaging me, will reverse themselves and ask for money and accept the friend price, and then engage in some really nice FS.
Again, I never use the idea of money to persuade them. They have to consent to the idea of sex, and then usually they will then ask for money. And there are ways of giving them money without letting it look like money for sex, brush off money, pay off money, or hush money.
Girls tell me of guys their naked on their backs, offering money, laying out a pile of money on the table, trying to persuade the girl to take it and hence agree to sex.
Never do I and never would I do anything like trying to use money to persuade them.
Also, almost impossible that a cop could ever bust me, because all I have ever done is try to fuck her. Never offered money.
If she is concerned that I am a cop, well having DFked her and felt her up and gone into heavy petting and making out on my lap, I better not be.
But even so, she can just proceed and she will get the friend price. And then if she wants more, I'll probably comply. Usually though they do accept the friend price. Sometimes they don't even count it. I explained about one I put the friend price into the hand of when we were making out, and she flung it underhand across the room. A few moments later her mini-dress went flying off in the same direction.
I never lead with any discussion of money. So I never could be in the situation you are in.
Your stuff, just like Mr. LDK's, is completely alien to any situation I would ever be in.
To those who ask what is the problem, the thing is, these hoes will pull a bait and switch on you with this type of setup. They know you won't try anything frisky or risk getting arrested, and if you pretty much pay first, they have no obligation to sleep with you. These NYC hoes are VERY grimy man, so don't hamper on ol' rickyboy about his apprehension. It's perfectly just. Stop coming to NYC for hoes Ricky ol' buddy ol' pal. It's not worth the whorenation per station
Sounds to me like she doesn't want to feel or act like a whore. Going to dinner first, and talking about details in a non club environment, probably helps her deal with the reality that she is (or soon will be) a prostitute. I don't see why it's a problem as long as (apart from you picking up the tab) she doesn't expect to be paid for her time at dinner.
I sort of did this with DS II. We talked about OTC in the club but we didn't reach a final understanding re fucking for money until dinner on our first date. If this makes her more comfortable with being my sex toy, I'm all for it.
I'm changing my mind: as georgemd etc. have pointed out: dinner to DISCUSS is a non starter. I would have dinner with her if no OTC was okay with me; as I was feeling in my post, dancer dates are fun. Mostly as PART of OTC. With a civvie I'd roll the dice because that's how the real world is. But she's a sex worker (or in this case, probably NOT a sex worker) so she has different rules. It's obvious to me now that she's just fishing for money without ever having sex with you OTC so if you're not up for a fun date, then I say dump her.
"Sometimes their “indecisiveness” may be genuine and sometimes they are professionally stringing along a PL."
Yes! But see, this starts when you start trying to talk them into having sex. Whether you've put money on the table or not, it would not be going this way unless you were approaching her by trying to make it into a rational discussion.
If instead you just get her into a suitable physical location, and then move on her physically, the discussion stops, and often she'll just go with it.
In AMPs and all manner of civilian situation, this has always been the best for me.
But even if she doesn't go for it, I believe she will respect you better for trying to just make it happen, and probably not to much further along she will go with it.
So you could just invite her to dinner, and then move on her. As she accepted the dinner, she will probably let what happens happen. I mean usually a grown up girl expects that such a dinner date will be an overnighter.
Estafador---> "To those who ask what is the problem, the thing is, these hoes will pull a bait and switch on you with this type of setup. They know you won't try anything frisky or risk getting arrested, and if you pretty much pay first, they have no obligation to sleep with you."
Agree, but what kind of complete dope would pay up front at dinner? I'd assume Rick has the basic minimum daily allowance of IQ points not to pay her up front at dinner, even if the OTC negotiations go well, pay her afterwards as walys. The only risk here is that he spends an hour and buys her a $50 dinner and they don't go OTCing afterwards. To me, that's no real risk at all ... hell, even if the OTC discussion fell through, I might well invite her to go strip clubbing together afterwards. But again, totally realize that for a married guy with limited time, or someone who just plain isn't interested in socializing with strippers, this is still a deal-killer.
I require that the beautiful young lady and I go to dinner and sometimes a movie and shopping before any OTC date. I want to show them off to everyone as I walk in to an elite restaurant with a beautiful young lady on my arm smooching and hugging as we go in. In the movie we are making out like high school kids DFKing. This is a true GFE. I don't want it any other way. If they won't go to dinner with me then it's a deal breaker. They are fired ! I can get any escort to just go to the hotel. I want a GFE not a prostitute. So I require them to go to dinner with me always as a prerequisite to OTC dates. At dinner we can talk and get to know each other better and talk about boundaries we each may have as well as what we like etc.
Exactly what Papi said. I'm not particularly interested in a long drawn out dinner where I have to pretend to be interested in what she has to say. I just want to have fun at the club with an excellent finish in my hotel. Simple.
Then Rick you can save a lot of money and time by just texting a hoe on Back Page. The end result will be the same. If you want a lap dance first the Back Page Girl will accommodate probably for less money than the dancer.
IMO w/ dancers being so flaky and finicky at times one can't judge on too hard a scale – it's worth a try and giving her a chance to see if she'll take the plunge.
Lol, yeah, text hoe from BP to get busted or get fucked by some fugly bitch. I would rather pretend to be interested in dinner and convo with OTC stripper.:P
I'll be in a more economically disadvantaged city in another day, so I guess I'll just have to wait until then. I have zero interest in BP girls and no interest in investing the time and/or money it takes to get good talent OTC in NYC.
Why would you want to fuck a girl if you don't want to listen to her conversation? Why not find a girl who is attractive to you and whom you would want to converse with? Finding such a girl in a strip club should not be difficult.
It sounds like you like paying money to keep them distant from you. You use the payment to create an emotional and social barrier. The sex is secondary to the creation of this barrier.
I feel that there is something unhealthy which must underlie this.
Rick and also Dancer95 ;
Of course I was saying this "tongue in cheek" to make a point of this. I said this for effect. Sex cannot be separated from emotion unless you use the fee paid to insulate you from it with this pay for play barrier. SJG is exactly right here. If you are not willing to have dinner with the girl why should she want to give you her body. What I was saying is if you don't want to have dinner with her then you may as well just hire a prostitute. After all you are treating her like one.
So Rick, I assume you've noticed that you creep a lot of us out. Which is fine since you don't particularly want anything from us. But, do you know how to interact with a dancer without a big risk of creeping her out? That perhaps is causing delays in cutting to the OTC chase. Anyway, haven't you said you drop a lot of money on dancers just to hang in the club? Hanging for the price of dinner might turn out to be much cheaper.
Ibb, if you're creeped out by what I post then you're a pussy. We're in the locker room girly man. And when you've taken as many girls as I have OTC from strip clubs then maybe your attempt to give me advice about interacting with them won't sound so stupid.
@DoctorPhil
Maybe by your definition but not by mine. I have been with more prostitutes than I can count and they all operate the same way. For a prostitute it's all about the money. For my girls money is way down the list. They don't even mention money. They just know I will take care of them. For a prostitute its all about the time. My girls could care less how long we spend together. They will stay with me as long as I want them to. The money I give them is always the same whether we've been together two hours or all night. The prostitute is all about getting you off. As soon as you ejaculate she's out the door and on to the next dude. My girls continue to stay and we continue to play long after the ejaculation. Prostitutes don't go to dinner with you and go to movies with you and go shopping with you and make out with you giving you whatever you want whenever you want it. A prostitute is on a fee schedule pay for play BJ=$$ FS= $$$ etc. The more you get the more you pay. The more time you spend the more you pay. My GFE girls have no fee schedule it's whatever I give them. There have been times that I have had less money to give them and they said "don't worry about it."
That is not a prostitute ! No Way !
Jestrite50 is correct. He maintains his GFE's, and they love him. More than anyone else on this forum, he knows how to do this. He sees what is obvious.
I think more than anything it just comes down to how you treat them. Women work in prostitution venues, but this does not mean that this is all they are. How they treat you is just a reflection of how you treat them. I learned this long ago. But I also learned more recently by being involved behind the scenes with the entire crews of RedBook AAMPs.
Some guys on this board have the agenda of degrading all women. I see this now. And I am not going to ever say anything to go along with this.
For the most part I have gotten along well with girls in strip clubs and AMPs. And as I will be traveling over broad areas of the US and Mexico, I will be doing more of the same. I have learned from Jestrite50, but I also have my own way about it and my own plans.
The women I meet will be introduced to the other men and women in my organization and invited to become part of it.
The actor Tony Curtis wrote about his years in Las Vegas that he was "using show girls like a drug". He explained that he was doing one, or even two of them, per day.
Now of course when you are Tony Curtis, it isn't very hard to set this up. And of course none of them would ever be asking him for money. But this was not his point. His point was that he was using them like a drug, to avoid his own feelings. He was not really being open to them. He was ejaculating, inside of them, but he still was not being particularly open or engaging with them. No reason anyone should have to do this. I mean, not unless something else is seriously wrong in their life. And things get that way when people are not feeling their feelings. Usually it will be because they are on drugs or alcohol and avoiding the pains from things which have gone wrong.
Anyway, during my first years of AMPing I was doing girls in three counties. I was always looking for more. Eventually though I stopped because I knew I had a marriage to keep together, also because I was spending beyond my means, and it was in general just an unhealthy lifestyle.
So from then on it was only in extreme moderation. And of course our local strip clubs are just for looking, talking, and flirting.
A dancer long ago told me, "Don't use strip clubs for sexual gratification, because that is perverted." She was of course speaking of the 'extras' shops she had worked in, and of the 'extras' approach as it was extended to FS.
So I've thought about this long and hard. And people say that I am insensitive to the fact that people look for different things or enjoy strip clubs in different ways. This is not true. I am not saying that these people are immoral. I am just flabbergasted at what they do to themselves and at how much like a drug their escapade are.
So how can you partake of strip clubs, and not have it be perverted or like a drug?
The ways to appreciate strip clubs are:
1. To imbibe a sexual aesthetic, the extremely dolled up, forward, and pleasing women, that hopefully you can recreate this in your own personal life.
2. If you wish to have outside relationships with dancers.
Of course I go for both of these. But this is not the same as using the strip club for sexual gratification.
In future times I'll be having outside relationships with strip club dancers and amp women in many places across the US and Mexico. The reason I know by experience that this will work is very simple, I don't ever treat them as prostitutes.
Mr. LDK keeps saying that I romance them. Untrue. I just treat them the same way I would treat any other woman.
Of the people who post here with any frequency, Jestrite50 is about the only one who understands this.
I may sometimes come across as a PL. Maybe I actually am one, but I don't think of myself as a PL, and I certainly don't plan on remaining one. I have big plans and ambitions, and I am right now heavily involved in serious undertakings.
On this forum, I have connected myself to some pretty touchy matters. I can do this because I keep my current face to face life firewalled off from online.
I never say anything which is untrue, and I never claim to have seen first hand or done anything myself, unless it is the complete truth.
But as I am involved in serious matters and as I have big plans, I keep my face to face life firewalled off.
I don't start threads just to talk about people. I don't troll people or their threads. Those that do do such are the real PL's.
It could mean she'll take you for a dinner then decide not to have sex (although if this happens it was probably a set up). I've known a few who did that and I used to tell guys asking me for a date (though I knew they meant sex)I would require dinner at a nice restaurant.I didn't expect it but I had no intention of seeing them OTC. I actually did have a few guys pay for dinner but this was strictly dinner and not a sexual thing and it was for a variety of reasons. This is extremely rare and these were specific cases.
I'm confused by your post – are you saying you were petty sure they wanted sex from you but you went out to dinner w/ them and then didn't have sexy w/ them? If so – why did you go – you wanted a nice dinner at a nice place?
The way I look at it, the girl just wants to be treated the same way any other woman does. If Mr. Dugan does not want to spend time with her, then find one he does want to spend time with.
Now sure, the girl's talk is probably going to be all family and relationship drama, and petty stuff. But as the man, his stuff will be more worldly. So just use the dinner time to entertain her. It will make the fucking go better later.
She is giving him free talking time. In strip clubs, like San Jose's T's, I had paid dancers the full $20 dance fee just to sit and talk.
Rick says he doesn't want to have to talk with her for that long.
The whole thing freaks me out. I mean sure, girls talk about stuff that a guy usually won't be interested in, like family and relationship drama. But usually they will listen as the guy talks about stuff which is more worldly. He should find a girl he actually likes, not just her looks but her entire persona. If she didn't like him, she wouldn't want to go to dinner.
Sorry to say, but I feel that many of the core TUSCL posters have an agenda, proving to themselves that all women are prostitutes, and being able to treat them as such.
Sorry, I don't see it that way. I treat all women as civilians.
And no Mr. LDK, that does not mean that I romance them.
^but by treating them like regular women you are trying to romance them unless you are not looking for sex and a "just friends" relationship. That is where most relationships with regular women fall. You are either romancing them, just want to fuck(that is the purpose of a ho) or just want to be friends with no intent of fucking and\or romancing them.
1. romancing them
2. just want to fuck ( purpose of a ho)
3. just want to be friends
These are not the only choices. Maybe decades ago I would have agreed with this list as being exhaustive, but not now.
Consider, romance is very much a middle class invention, it is neuroticism instead of eroticism. It happens when you go too far from basic animal attraction.
See, I can talk to a girl and tell her about myself and my career and business ventures and all of my plans and undertakings. I can tell her about all of the things which have to be firewall protected from online venues like TUSCL.
I can explain all of this to the girl, but that is not romance. It is telling her what she wants to know. It is telling her what in a strict P4P role she will not ask. But she still wants to know, because like it or not, it is how women judge men. When I tell her all of this it shows her that I am not afraid of rejection, and that I am not hiding anything. It also flatters her just because I am trying.
I can also just move on her. Waiting till the right moment and kissing her, usually works great. If not just once, after a couple of times, if she goes for it, she has no resistance left.
So this certainly is not category three. It is not category two as she has not agreed to anything. I have not asked her for any agreement. It is just happening. So it is not category one because of the high velocity. It is just like she was a girl I'd just met at a party. Maybe it is not only 5 seconds, but it is not more than 10 min. In a strip club or an AMP it is not more than 5 minutes. But those few minutes make a big difference in how she sees it all.
Middle class romance, a form of anti-eroticism, collapses. But P4P scripts also collapse too. I've always said that the first thing you want to do is get the girl off script. You get her off her pay 4 play script by letting her know you. That script is how she deals with strangers. She keeps control of it. She is off script when she knows you and when she is just letting you have your way with her.
But is she is a civilian, you want to get her out of her comfort zone. Her comfort zone is the romance script. You get her off of this script by confidently moving fast, faster than her romance script would allow.
It just happens. When it is like this in AMPs, what happens is mind blowing. The girls are not used to being treated this way, so they just completely surrender and the sex is explosive.
To make things perfectly clear, she knows exactly what I wanted. In her mind, dinner was a preliminary negotiation step. I have no idea if she was going to ask for money at dinner or not, but I have never paid extra to eat with someone and never will.
My objection was having to jump through hoops, burning a lot of limited free time in the process, just to eat with her and negotiate. I don't want or need a date - I just want some lighthearted fun ITC and then OTC.
I think her meaning was that she wanted to civilianize it. She ain't just looking for free food. If she didn't like you she wouldn't do it that way.
For me, I never try to professionalize it. I treat all women as civilians. So I wouldn't have themed the initial offer as P4P. It would have intentionally kept it in exactly the middle, just politely letting her know that I liked her and wanted to get alone with her and get physical. But I would not be asking her to agree to anything. Turning that into, "Let's fuck right now for money", would have to have come from her. Coming just from me, I would emphasize just getting her alone and then moving on her. No reason to try and get her to verbally agree to sex. I think that is the line. Civilians get moved on and fucked regularly. But they don't verbally agree to sex.
@Papi_Chulo, I wasn't clear I realize. Two different instances. The guys who just wanted sex (customers)I would claim I would expect dinner first. In reality I wasn't planning on seeing them otc. The guys I did meet for dinners were guys who asked me to dinner only (usually not customers. These were cases like a guy wanted to show his ex he could do better or a guy who was lonely. These weren't guys I went out with where any expectation of sex was on the table.
Didn't read all the post so don't know if I'm repeating here, but to me it all comes down whether its a one and done or a repeater. Obviously for one and done dinner to negotiate is a no gonna happen, too likely to be a waste of time and money. But for future multiple visits dinner as a way to negotiate or just feel out is perfectly fine with me.
You're a weird dude ibb. Sorry to see that OTC discussions creep you out so much. This isn't the first time you acted like a bitch on the rag when when I started a thread about some OTC issue. Perhaps your delicate sensitivities would fare better if we kept the discussions to pointless LDs, or football, or anything else other than guys fucking strippers?
"Alright Ahnold maybe you can use your vast OTC experience to handle your own shit. Instead of being a whiney bitch as well as a creep."
Brilliant! But you better watch out ilbbaicnl because rickdugan may put you on ignore!
You won't really notice a difference though, because having rickdugan put you on ignore is pretty much like not being on ignore! He still posts responses to you anyway!
Buying her dinner first before the negotiation is a hustle. A happy hour steak with salad on the side is basically just about ten bucks. No biggie there.
But having to deal with a girl who is entitled is definitely a deal breaker for me.
She can have my ten bucks than have A rushed non-GFE encounter instead.
Geez Rick chill already. Sooth yourself thinking about showering with other TUSCL members in your fantasy locker room. It's your malignant narcissism that's creepy.
former_stripper posted: "So Rick what was the outcome?"
___________________________________________________________________________
I didn't do it. I might have considered it if she was interesting enough when I chatted with her ITC, but she wasn't. She was one of those pretentious and secretly self loathing strippers who believed that she was too good to be dancing even though she was. It took enough effort to pretend that I was interested when there was a bar, other dancers and loud music in the mix, nevermind trying to do it alone for 60-120+ minutes.
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She just doesn't want to come across as easy. Maybe it will make her feel less of a prostitute.
Food.
Heard Rick likes 'em young.
Brilliant! But I'd go with Taco Bell because if I've learned anything from TUSCL it is that some people do disturbing things in the McD's bathroom!
Worst case scenario he pays a bit for dinner and it flames out.
The other alternative is to move on. After all, I have a hard time believing that this is the first request for dinner he's had, assuming he actually does pick up strippers as much as he claims. It's not like dinner is a ridiculous request, like "give me credit cards for a shopping trip".
"Pretentious" is too mild.
You're not pretentious enough! Be pretentious to get their pretentious ass!
Then we ran off without giving her a baby to eat or even paying her. Good times!
I'm kinda surprised it was her idea – it seems often times it is the custy's idea – I'm normally under the impression dancers prefer to get their $$$ in as little time and effort involved as possible; i.e. I'm under the impression if it's dinner + sex for $X or just sex for $X; that they would just choose just sex at it involves less of their time.
What crosses my PL mind is that perhaps she is still trying to feel out Dugan and thus the dinner in a public non-SC environment to feel him out (e.g. is he a jerk; is he potentially dangerous; etc).
And although Dugan is too experienced for this to happen to him – a while back I read a review of a guy whom arranged OTC for $400 for dinner and sex; paid the dancer; dancer takes $$$; has dinner with the custy; and then tells the custy the $400 was just for the dinner date.
Paps, I think the fact that you'd call this a "date" is the core issue. To me, dinner with a stripper isn't a "date", any more than dinner with my coworker (who, I assure you, I do not want to fuck, even though he does have pretty big tits) is a date, or dinner with my kids is a date. Just like dinner with my coworker is just dinner with my coworker, dinner with a stripper is just that -- eating and drinking with a chick who I love looking at, and enjoy talking to, and side bonus, I get super turned on eating and doing shots and flirting and touching her, so I'm aching for her by the time we hit the bed.
Again, I totally realize that not all guys like or want this. And I also realize that for some guys, going to dinner with a stripper IS a date, and IS treating them like a girlfriend, at least in their minds. I'm guessing for most guys who have been around for a while, it's just dinner... with a crazy hot young chick ... who they'll later have sex with.
I think you're right in that it's like a feeling-out tactic to gauge if she feels safe with him. The fact that she's risking an hour of her time, with a customer, probably means the odds are good -- she thinks it's more likely than not she'll eventually get paid for the night.
Papi--> "I'm under the impression if it's dinner + sex for $X or just sex for $X; that they would just choose just sex at it involves less of their time."
That only exists in StripperWeb. In the real world, while there are certainly girls like that, I can say my experience is that it's pretty easy to find strippers who will opt for the former. Just more reason for me to think that SW is either the worst-of-the-worst hustlers, or lots of poseurs, or most likely, both.
Could have been just part of their hustle but the vast majority of strippers I take out genuinely seem to have a good time. Most seem in no hurry for the night to end and want to continue partying after dinner. It is like they don't get taken out much. I could just be fucking delusional too.
When dealing with women, it is not always possible to just say, "Lets go fuck". Even when I have a van, I know that it will not always be possible to use it as intended.
But also, I always approach women as civilians, no exception. So it would be impossible for me to ever be in the situation you are in, where a girl is refusing OTC negotiations until I take her to dinner. This is because I never would have started OTC negotiations in the first place. If they were started, they would have been started by her.
What I have done in strip clubs is to gently start taking dirty to dancers, and moving gently into it, explain how I want to take them home with me and have sex with them. But it is put more as a hypothetical, something to happen at some unspecified future time, and it only gets graphic later on. Initially it is done with polite euphemisms and talking about how I want to hold her and enjoy every inch of her all night long. Things like that.
Once in a while they reject this. But most of the time they come to want me to deliver, right then, or when their shift gets off. Most of the time this is with girls who don't do P4P OTC.
So when I was married this was impossible. So when I didn't deliver, they got pissed about having their chain pulled.
Now I am involved in other stuff, and that takes up all of my public and personal life.
But in general I have found that girls respond well to guys who do not talk to them as though they are hookers. It doesn't really matter if they are hookers or not, they respond well when they are treated as though they aren't.
I mean this is also just good negotiating tactics. Sex does not need to cost money. It only costs money if both parties agree to do it that way. So rather than trying to offer money, it is best to try and get her to agree to have sex. If she still wants money, she can make that known and the pricing should be more reasonable.
In AMPs I usually get mind blowing GFE-FS, when the usual menu is just HJ or non-GFE-FS. And most guys pay more than I do.
This is because these guys are lying there naked on the table and offering the girl money to try and persuade her. Girls have explained all of this to me, and I read the narratives in the RubMaps reviews.
I NEVER do this. Even if the girl is reluctant and seems intent on holding to NO, I never ever mention a single word about money.
First I want her to agree in principle to fucking. Then if she wants money, we will set it up.
Sometimes she never mentions money, so when we are done I will just hand her the friend price.
If future times when I really am looking to set girls up as my mistresses, then I will be handing them money with some story about how I want to take care of them, so that it is not seen as a payment or a brush off fee. Rather it is that I want her to be involved with me, calling me on the phone, wanting to come over, etc.
I don't lie on my back and offer money. Most of the time I'll have DFKed her before my clothes have even come off. That is safer for her because naked aggression carries a risk of unwelcomed BBFS. Clothed aggression is better. More like in the movies.
If she goes for DFKing, then I'll sit her down on my lap and get more friendly with her, and just let it escalate.
If she wants money, she will ask. If not, she will get the friend price at the end.
Usually even the girls who initially refused and insisted on massaging me, will reverse themselves and ask for money and accept the friend price, and then engage in some really nice FS.
Again, I never use the idea of money to persuade them. They have to consent to the idea of sex, and then usually they will then ask for money. And there are ways of giving them money without letting it look like money for sex, brush off money, pay off money, or hush money.
Girls tell me of guys their naked on their backs, offering money, laying out a pile of money on the table, trying to persuade the girl to take it and hence agree to sex.
Never do I and never would I do anything like trying to use money to persuade them.
Also, almost impossible that a cop could ever bust me, because all I have ever done is try to fuck her. Never offered money.
If she is concerned that I am a cop, well having DFked her and felt her up and gone into heavy petting and making out on my lap, I better not be.
But even so, she can just proceed and she will get the friend price. And then if she wants more, I'll probably comply. Usually though they do accept the friend price. Sometimes they don't even count it. I explained about one I put the friend price into the hand of when we were making out, and she flung it underhand across the room. A few moments later her mini-dress went flying off in the same direction.
I never lead with any discussion of money. So I never could be in the situation you are in.
Your stuff, just like Mr. LDK's, is completely alien to any situation I would ever be in.
:)
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/…
I sort of did this with DS II. We talked about OTC in the club but we didn't reach a final understanding re fucking for money until dinner on our first date. If this makes her more comfortable with being my sex toy, I'm all for it.
Yes! But see, this starts when you start trying to talk them into having sex. Whether you've put money on the table or not, it would not be going this way unless you were approaching her by trying to make it into a rational discussion.
If instead you just get her into a suitable physical location, and then move on her physically, the discussion stops, and often she'll just go with it.
In AMPs and all manner of civilian situation, this has always been the best for me.
But even if she doesn't go for it, I believe she will respect you better for trying to just make it happen, and probably not to much further along she will go with it.
So you could just invite her to dinner, and then move on her. As she accepted the dinner, she will probably let what happens happen. I mean usually a grown up girl expects that such a dinner date will be an overnighter.
Or maybe in the club you can just move on her.
Jestrite 50, making it happen in the front room
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
Then once she has gone for that in the club front room, then there can be the VIP room, or just walk her out the front door.
No reason to try and verbally talk her into sex.
Guys do that, for the same reason that they offer money, because they want to insulate themselves from emotional involvement.
So it is brush off money, or hush money. It's not paying her for sex, it's paying her to go away.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
Agree, but what kind of complete dope would pay up front at dinner? I'd assume Rick has the basic minimum daily allowance of IQ points not to pay her up front at dinner, even if the OTC negotiations go well, pay her afterwards as walys. The only risk here is that he spends an hour and buys her a $50 dinner and they don't go OTCing afterwards. To me, that's no real risk at all ... hell, even if the OTC discussion fell through, I might well invite her to go strip clubbing together afterwards. But again, totally realize that for a married guy with limited time, or someone who just plain isn't interested in socializing with strippers, this is still a deal-killer.
Awesome!
SJG
For my friend Rick ! No extra charge !
Shiiiiit, man. If I was a cop, I would go bust them first, nothing screams "human trafficking" louder than this ad.:/
Why would you want to fuck a girl if you don't want to listen to her conversation? Why not find a girl who is attractive to you and whom you would want to converse with? Finding such a girl in a strip club should not be difficult.
It sounds like you like paying money to keep them distant from you. You use the payment to create an emotional and social barrier. The sex is secondary to the creation of this barrier.
I feel that there is something unhealthy which must underlie this.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/…
Doyle Bramhall II
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8pc9sbq…
Of course I was saying this "tongue in cheek" to make a point of this. I said this for effect. Sex cannot be separated from emotion unless you use the fee paid to insulate you from it with this pay for play barrier. SJG is exactly right here. If you are not willing to have dinner with the girl why should she want to give you her body. What I was saying is if you don't want to have dinner with her then you may as well just hire a prostitute. After all you are treating her like one.
uhhhh, she is a prostitute just like every girl that you pay to fuck you no matter how much you tell yourself they aren’t
Maybe by your definition but not by mine. I have been with more prostitutes than I can count and they all operate the same way. For a prostitute it's all about the money. For my girls money is way down the list. They don't even mention money. They just know I will take care of them. For a prostitute its all about the time. My girls could care less how long we spend together. They will stay with me as long as I want them to. The money I give them is always the same whether we've been together two hours or all night. The prostitute is all about getting you off. As soon as you ejaculate she's out the door and on to the next dude. My girls continue to stay and we continue to play long after the ejaculation. Prostitutes don't go to dinner with you and go to movies with you and go shopping with you and make out with you giving you whatever you want whenever you want it. A prostitute is on a fee schedule pay for play BJ=$$ FS= $$$ etc. The more you get the more you pay. The more time you spend the more you pay. My GFE girls have no fee schedule it's whatever I give them. There have been times that I have had less money to give them and they said "don't worry about it."
That is not a prostitute ! No Way !
I think more than anything it just comes down to how you treat them. Women work in prostitution venues, but this does not mean that this is all they are. How they treat you is just a reflection of how you treat them. I learned this long ago. But I also learned more recently by being involved behind the scenes with the entire crews of RedBook AAMPs.
Some guys on this board have the agenda of degrading all women. I see this now. And I am not going to ever say anything to go along with this.
For the most part I have gotten along well with girls in strip clubs and AMPs. And as I will be traveling over broad areas of the US and Mexico, I will be doing more of the same. I have learned from Jestrite50, but I also have my own way about it and my own plans.
The women I meet will be introduced to the other men and women in my organization and invited to become part of it.
The actor Tony Curtis wrote about his years in Las Vegas that he was "using show girls like a drug". He explained that he was doing one, or even two of them, per day.
Now of course when you are Tony Curtis, it isn't very hard to set this up. And of course none of them would ever be asking him for money. But this was not his point. His point was that he was using them like a drug, to avoid his own feelings. He was not really being open to them. He was ejaculating, inside of them, but he still was not being particularly open or engaging with them. No reason anyone should have to do this. I mean, not unless something else is seriously wrong in their life. And things get that way when people are not feeling their feelings. Usually it will be because they are on drugs or alcohol and avoiding the pains from things which have gone wrong.
Anyway, during my first years of AMPing I was doing girls in three counties. I was always looking for more. Eventually though I stopped because I knew I had a marriage to keep together, also because I was spending beyond my means, and it was in general just an unhealthy lifestyle.
So from then on it was only in extreme moderation. And of course our local strip clubs are just for looking, talking, and flirting.
A dancer long ago told me, "Don't use strip clubs for sexual gratification, because that is perverted." She was of course speaking of the 'extras' shops she had worked in, and of the 'extras' approach as it was extended to FS.
So I've thought about this long and hard. And people say that I am insensitive to the fact that people look for different things or enjoy strip clubs in different ways. This is not true. I am not saying that these people are immoral. I am just flabbergasted at what they do to themselves and at how much like a drug their escapade are.
So how can you partake of strip clubs, and not have it be perverted or like a drug?
The ways to appreciate strip clubs are:
1. To imbibe a sexual aesthetic, the extremely dolled up, forward, and pleasing women, that hopefully you can recreate this in your own personal life.
2. If you wish to have outside relationships with dancers.
Of course I go for both of these. But this is not the same as using the strip club for sexual gratification.
In future times I'll be having outside relationships with strip club dancers and amp women in many places across the US and Mexico. The reason I know by experience that this will work is very simple, I don't ever treat them as prostitutes.
Mr. LDK keeps saying that I romance them. Untrue. I just treat them the same way I would treat any other woman.
Of the people who post here with any frequency, Jestrite50 is about the only one who understands this.
I may sometimes come across as a PL. Maybe I actually am one, but I don't think of myself as a PL, and I certainly don't plan on remaining one. I have big plans and ambitions, and I am right now heavily involved in serious undertakings.
On this forum, I have connected myself to some pretty touchy matters. I can do this because I keep my current face to face life firewalled off from online.
I never say anything which is untrue, and I never claim to have seen first hand or done anything myself, unless it is the complete truth.
But as I am involved in serious matters and as I have big plans, I keep my face to face life firewalled off.
I don't start threads just to talk about people. I don't troll people or their threads. Those that do do such are the real PL's.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/…
ROLLING STONES - GET YER YA YA'S OUT !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUGZTRCr…
I'm confused by your post – are you saying you were petty sure they wanted sex from you but you went out to dinner w/ them and then didn't have sexy w/ them? If so – why did you go – you wanted a nice dinner at a nice place?
Now sure, the girl's talk is probably going to be all family and relationship drama, and petty stuff. But as the man, his stuff will be more worldly. So just use the dinner time to entertain her. It will make the fucking go better later.
She is giving him free talking time. In strip clubs, like San Jose's T's, I had paid dancers the full $20 dance fee just to sit and talk.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/…
Sounds like Rick is griping about losing thirty bucks for a dinner that doesn't go towards sex.
The whole thing freaks me out. I mean sure, girls talk about stuff that a guy usually won't be interested in, like family and relationship drama. But usually they will listen as the guy talks about stuff which is more worldly. He should find a girl he actually likes, not just her looks but her entire persona. If she didn't like him, she wouldn't want to go to dinner.
Sorry to say, but I feel that many of the core TUSCL posters have an agenda, proving to themselves that all women are prostitutes, and being able to treat them as such.
Sorry, I don't see it that way. I treat all women as civilians.
And no Mr. LDK, that does not mean that I romance them.
Thanks Alabegonz,
SJG
2. just want to fuck ( purpose of a ho)
3. just want to be friends
These are not the only choices. Maybe decades ago I would have agreed with this list as being exhaustive, but not now.
Consider, romance is very much a middle class invention, it is neuroticism instead of eroticism. It happens when you go too far from basic animal attraction.
See, I can talk to a girl and tell her about myself and my career and business ventures and all of my plans and undertakings. I can tell her about all of the things which have to be firewall protected from online venues like TUSCL.
I can explain all of this to the girl, but that is not romance. It is telling her what she wants to know. It is telling her what in a strict P4P role she will not ask. But she still wants to know, because like it or not, it is how women judge men. When I tell her all of this it shows her that I am not afraid of rejection, and that I am not hiding anything. It also flatters her just because I am trying.
I can also just move on her. Waiting till the right moment and kissing her, usually works great. If not just once, after a couple of times, if she goes for it, she has no resistance left.
So this certainly is not category three. It is not category two as she has not agreed to anything. I have not asked her for any agreement. It is just happening. So it is not category one because of the high velocity. It is just like she was a girl I'd just met at a party. Maybe it is not only 5 seconds, but it is not more than 10 min. In a strip club or an AMP it is not more than 5 minutes. But those few minutes make a big difference in how she sees it all.
Middle class romance, a form of anti-eroticism, collapses. But P4P scripts also collapse too. I've always said that the first thing you want to do is get the girl off script. You get her off her pay 4 play script by letting her know you. That script is how she deals with strangers. She keeps control of it. She is off script when she knows you and when she is just letting you have your way with her.
But is she is a civilian, you want to get her out of her comfort zone. Her comfort zone is the romance script. You get her off of this script by confidently moving fast, faster than her romance script would allow.
It just happens. When it is like this in AMPs, what happens is mind blowing. The girls are not used to being treated this way, so they just completely surrender and the sex is explosive.
But you don't have to believe me, read The Master Himself, Jestrite50:
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
I just treat them like they are a girl I am trying to pick up on.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/…
My objection was having to jump through hoops, burning a lot of limited free time in the process, just to eat with her and negotiate. I don't want or need a date - I just want some lighthearted fun ITC and then OTC.
For me, I never try to professionalize it. I treat all women as civilians. So I wouldn't have themed the initial offer as P4P. It would have intentionally kept it in exactly the middle, just politely letting her know that I liked her and wanted to get alone with her and get physical. But I would not be asking her to agree to anything. Turning that into, "Let's fuck right now for money", would have to have come from her. Coming just from me, I would emphasize just getting her alone and then moving on her. No reason to try and get her to verbally agree to sex. I think that is the line. Civilians get moved on and fucked regularly. But they don't verbally agree to sex.
SJG
If Mr. Dugan doesn't like the girl enough to do that, then he should just find another girl.
SJG
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/…
Brilliant! But you better watch out ilbbaicnl because rickdugan may put you on ignore!
You won't really notice a difference though, because having rickdugan put you on ignore is pretty much like not being on ignore! He still posts responses to you anyway!
But having to deal with a girl who is entitled is definitely a deal breaker for me.
She can have my ten bucks than have A rushed non-GFE encounter instead.
___________________________________________________________________________
I didn't do it. I might have considered it if she was interesting enough when I chatted with her ITC, but she wasn't. She was one of those pretentious and secretly self loathing strippers who believed that she was too good to be dancing even though she was. It took enough effort to pretend that I was interested when there was a bar, other dancers and loud music in the mix, nevermind trying to do it alone for 60-120+ minutes.