Signs that your wife is dead
A: The quality of the sex stays the same but the dirty dishes pile up in the kitchen sink
The nasty smell no longer comes from just between her legs
She stops saying no every time you ask for sex
It's been a week or more since she told you all of the things you do wrong
Suddenly you enjoy your conversations with one another.
Inexplicably your wallet has money in it again.
You find you can play your guitar at full volume and no one flips the circuit breaker.
Wow, this is some rough stuff. Mine is the mother of my children and has earned a lot of latitude for everything she does.
Rick, my wife is the mother of my kids too so relax, it was just a joke. Except for the sex staying the same part. That one was is true.
I'm glad I left off the dog keeps peeing on her.
Q How does a woman know her husband is dead? A The sex is the same but she gets to use the remote.
JohnSmith69,
I was once in the same situation you are in now, a horrible and non-workable marriage.
I did visit strippers, but I kept it within bounds. It was mostly talking and flirting. I needed to learn more about myself and about women.
But I never used SC's as a form of sexual gratification. It was more just a way to envision a future.
It sounds like you do use SC's and strippers as a form of sexual gratification. But the problem is that your stripper escorts can't really do anything to help you with your problem, not unless they have a law degree.
So instead of just moaning about it, lets start collecting some money in a scholarship fund so that we can send some of these girls to school so that they can start to practice divorce law.
SJG
Let's Dance Beatles ft Tony Sheridan youtube.com Hamburg 1962
SJG, thanks for the short post. However, I don't get not using strippers for sexual gratification. That's their purpose. I don't think it would be possible to go to a club and just flirt.
Rick, my wife is the mother of my kids too so relax, it was just a joke. Except for the sex staying the same part. That one was is true.
I'm glad I left off the dog keeps peeing on her.
A joke, huh? Did that include the reference to a bad smell coming from her vagina?
Seriously dude, ouch. Hey look, we get it, the magic is gone now, so you seek out strippers for the sex. No issues there, but displaying such contempt for your wife and kids' Mom is downright shameful.
Yeah I'm no big fan of my ex either but that tirade was way over the top.
"It was more just a way to envision a future."
I totally get what you are saying here. That's why I get myself into SC as well, sort of like replaying the past, nostalgia of a time when romance was there.
"Mine is the mother of my children and has earned a lot of latitude for everything she does."
Which is why RickyBoy puts get at risk of STDs and cervical cancer by "generally" engaging in BBFS when it is available. Makes total sense!
JohnSmith69,
Where I live the SC's are strictly regulated, no touching is allowed, no ejaculation. So talking with dancers is the most you can do. But because of these rules, it is sometimes possible to talk very explicitly to them. It is almost like they are consenting to sex just by participating in the detailed conversation. In any other situation no girl would put up with that. She would just say, "Put up or shut up." But in these strictly regulated clubs where you can't do much else, it can be okay. Sometimes the girls really go for it too.
About not using SC's for sexual gratification, this is what a dancer told me, she said that to use them for sexual gratification is perverted. I've thought about it much. She had experience in high mileage clubs and with all manner of OTC. I think she is right.
Certainly just having a dancer make you cum is not actually a sexual relationship. It is not anything close to it. Even doing FS-ITC is only a limited sort of one. And then doing OTC, it's still holding something back. I mean what is the money really for anyway. To me it seems like it is bribe money, hush money.
The stripper escort is not the solution to the problem. She is just a quick diversion from the problem. But this quick diversion, instead of dealing with the real problem, becomes an endorphin rush addiction.
SJG
Loose Up My Buttons youtube.com
^^^^ Something to listen to, while reading SJG's posts
Benny Hill_Yakety Sax.youtube.com.........
You never paid for sex. You pay to make sure she goes away AFTER sex, though.
Rick, I get that you were offended by the jokes because they treat ones wife with contempt. Obviously they were pretty extreme although I guess I figured this is kind of an extremes place. Nonetheless, I will try to avoid the dead wife or their equivalent jokes in the future. Nonetheless, I do think dougster has a point. For the many of us who cheat on our wives with strippers, I think we've already crossed the treating her with contempt threshold.
There's not too much that is funny that also does not involve somebody getting hurt in some way. Humans laugh at pain, either their own or somebody else's. It's the way it is.
They're jokes, get over 'em.
Pensionking,
You've got it right. P4P gives one another perspective, but it is not the solution to the problem.
JohnSmith69,
Lets get the scholarship fund going. You can nominate some of your favorite OTC strippers. Once we put them through law school, then they can help you with your problem.
SJG
John Brown's Holy War youtube.com
One effect of having been married for a long time which has hurt me is as follows. I look around and I see civilian women. They aren't dressed like strippers, but I can use my imagination. I like some of them, and I can envision going after them.
But the problem is then that the ones I would go after would be temperamentally similar to my ex. Or I should say, they would be like my ex was before we were married.
My ex says that I kicked her out of my life. Well yes, that is true. I did it for good reason and only after all avenues to re-establish workable communications with her were rejected. But my ex is accusing me of just wanting, "someone else".
This is not really true. But when I look at these younger women and imagine, it does feel like it would be that way. Inevitably I would end up recrossing some of the same territory with them. Mostly they are just younger.
I don't want to hurt someone else, and I don't want to hurt myself either. I did my very best to bring the marriage to an end, while always conducting myself so that my integrity was intact. But now I still need to look harder at what actually happened which made it so unworkable.
One issue was that there was an Oopser in my ex's inner most circle.
My ex was an after the fact accomplice, in terms of the brow beating and shamming and humiliating which went on. Our telephone was ringing at all hours of the night up until the Oopser got to within about two weeks of delivery. There were always hysterical arguments going on on the other end of the phone. My wife was making herself a part of this. And then she stood by the Oopser in what she had done and in how she had used it, and in how my wife had aided her, in all the years which followed.
SJG
It's a Beautiful Day. White Bird, ft Bill Graham youtube.com
As I plan to move on for the next phase of my life, I of course contemplate new relationships with women. They may be civilians, they may be strippers, they may be massage girls. There will probably be some of each in there.
But as I look at this, I always know that I will inevitably end up In the same sorts of situations and dealing with the same sorts of conflicts I had to deal with with my ex. It was a totally unworkable situation. No one should have to live through that.
I try not to blame my ex, because I know she is not one of the worst. She is typical.
Of course what it really was was the kind of relationship we had, not anything specific about she or I. For one thing, I had too little sexual experience before the marriage. She had even less.
In our marriage, it was always like she was trying to recreate the world I grew up in, a world of social control via gender politics. I survived childhood only because I learned to be able to see beyond my parents. When it came to resisting conformity and peer culture, I had to be more of an adult than they ever were. So of course I never had much to do with my own age peers.
My wife had been someone reasonable, someone I thought it worth the risk of forming a long term partnership with. That is, she was like that before we were married. But once she had that piece of paper in her hand, it all changed.
I think what really gave her the power to do harm was the financial connection, the key to the front door of our residence, and the power to enforce monogamy.
Now, don't mistake me, I accepted monogamy as part of the deal going in. It is just that she used it to make war. She enforced a sexual nightmare, she turned sex into shit!
So I knew that I had to stay alive. So it was in this situation that I tried to educate myself with sessions at AMPs and times spent talking and flirting at SC's. This of course was marital infidelity, but it was being done under extreme circumstances. I always saw it as just a survival tactic, so that my spirit could keep on going, while I looked for ways to stop and reverse the harm she was doing, and then bring the marriage to a close. I never used AMPs or SCs as a way to try and perpetuate the unworkable marriage. I was always straight up about it, that the marriage cannot continue as it is.
Today I am trying to mend the fences with my ex, trying to make communications work. Its like this. I see a girl I like. I envision how I could start a relationship with a new girl. But if I can't mend fences with my ex, what has really changed?
SJG
I didn't go far enough in developing my own sexuality before I was married, and hence committed to monogamy. That is, I hadn't had enough partners and hadn't of learned enough. So when I ended up married, and when things turned bad, I didn't have the sort of experiential basis which would have given me the strength to just get out, or to break out.
It would be in the years later that I would do more AMP sessions, though sporadically, and learn how to make the encounters much nicer for both parties, and leave the women really pleased.
I did for many years stop AMPing, either entirely or nearly entirely, because I knew that I had to try and make my marriage work. Eventually though this would prove impossible, and that the longer it lasted the more harm was being done.
My wife was even more limited in sexual experiences than I was. She was someone who would never engage in a sexual infidelity either. She wanted to be right. She wanted to be able to claim the moral high ground. She wanted power over me. She really did want to destroy. Even to this day I don't think she understands that this is what she was doing.
So no sexual infidelities, but her infidelities were in the idolatrous relationship she developed with money, and the idiotic things she did with it, and in the people she was allowing to influence her. What of course all of this did was to make it completely impossible that there could ever be a restoration of partnership between she and I. She came to idolize money. Now of course this did not mean that she would ever have much of it. Rather, it meant that that was what she valued day in and day out, and so the things she did with it were idiotic, as were the people she was listening to.
Sex and money are always closely related, expecially when it comes to women. It's just like in the Book of Hosea.
I really am lucky to have gotten out with my life. As she was continually trying to provoke me to violence, I had to learn to be 100% non-provokable. Other wise I would now be in the State Prison. But what this meant was that when she started in I just had to head for the front door.
I would return to leave her a note, to try and communicate and diffuse the problem. If I gave the note to her she would make a show of tearing it into pieces without reading it. If I put it on the table and then left. She might still tear it into pieces, but she would read it first.
It was a nightmare existence, being shackled to someone who wanted to use rage to destroy, and with no bottom end limit. She cared not what the consequences were, only that she be able to rage with no limit and that no one ever be able to oppose her.
Writing about this here on JS69's thread brings it all back. I am suffering from post traumatic stress disorder. This woman took no responsibility for anything she did to try and control and be right. Zero sexual infidelities, because sex was not important to her. I see this now. Once she even said of our pre-marriage times, "I knew that otherwise you wouldn't keep going out with me." This is all it ever was to her, a facet of gender warfare.
And unfortunately my own experiences with sex and relationships were too limited to detect this earlier, to detect what a crazy woman I was dealing with.
I can't say more now, it is too upsetting. This is the first forum where I have been able to talk about myself this much, because it is a pro-Mongering forum, and because it is mostly made up of men who have found marriage to be a negative.
OT: More Great Economic News - Married women are keeping the American economy alive tuscl.net
sites.google.com SJG
Blackmore's Night - Diamonds & Rust (Live in Paris 2006) HD youtube.com
With my ex, part of the problem was just her friends, the people she was letting herself be influenced by. So it became more about "the marriage" itself, rather than anything like a partnership between the two of us. I needed it to be a partnership, and not a subservience to normative societal standards. I had never approached her in any way other than to promote partnership.
Conservative culture is always imposed by force. You may only see this if you challenge it, but that force is still always there. And so it came to play out in my marriage.
I needed to learn how to stand up for myself, how to not let people take up positions from which to attach my legitimacy.
I still nave nightmares about the rage and emotional terrorism. My ex had not changed, some discussions are just impossible to have, even via email. She just gets worked up into a fit and becomes completely irrational. It was like this with screaming sessions in the marriage counselor's office long long ago. Better now that it is just email.
I need to understand, so that I can move on, and partake of other women.
reply to @Lena tuscl.net
SJG
Deep Purple-Made In Japan (1972) youtube.com
San Jose Guy, why don't you channel a little of the energy you keep using to describe your sackless existence into a few club reviews instead?
Oh, and about the that sackless existence, your problem was not your pre-marital sexual history, but the fact that you were a pussy who tolerated that happy horseshit.
That was all free of charge. You're welcome. ;)
@rickdugan
san_jose_guy is retarded. You expect to much from him. You must be retarded to.
Before I was married I was coming out of a very bad environment. It is only now, many decades later that I can see this.
During the years of tough marriage I did have to learn to control my temper. If I didn't, I'd be doing life in the state prison now.
Yes, I endured a long and very hard marriage. At times it did feel like a prison sentence. But it took me that long to even see that life might be different.
Now, in my life on the ground I am involved in various forms of activism, working with people to try and change things.
SJG
Lack of adequate sexual experience before being married was a problem, because high level sexuality is one of the ways I fight back against the oppressive world I grew up in. If I had gone further before marriage, I would have had a better basis of standing up to my wife when things started turning sour.
Likewise in a broader way, just having learned how to better stand up for my own legitimacy and having built up a network of comrades, would have made me less vulnerable to a bad marriage. So these things are where I turn my attention now. But my life has never been one of just spending time and money to have fun. There has always been much more at stake.
SJG
Body Count, Live in LA youtube.com
This hit a little too close to home for me.
I do my share of the housework, but she never takes one for the team sexually. We have sex when she wants it, which is a couple of times a month (it was 4-5 times a week when we met). I have a very high drive, but it has gotten to the point I don't even ask her for sex; I just let her come to me when she's actually horny.
She's hypercritical. She'll never be happy with me or our home, which has made me no longer care what she wants. That said, we still do have great conversations; she's incredibly intelligent and has excellent taste.
The money thing is a big sore spot for me. When I was single I made no money and was putting money away in the bank every month. Somehow I make 3x as much but aside from paying down the mortgage, we can barely pay our bills these days.
My wife would have never engaged in a sexual infidelity, because sex was just not that important to her. So she thought nothing of imposing a sexual draught. Also, she wanted to be RIGHT, she wanted the moral high ground.
I was foolish to have gotten involved with such a person.
Her infidelities were in the area of money and the idoloatrous relationship she had with it. It is not that she made lots of it, or even just spent too much. It was that it had far greater meaning to her. So she got involved with a Pyramid Scam and got emotionally involved with its people and with their was of thinking.
She started day trading. This was first announced to me when I was doing our income tax and presented with a whole list of transactions. And of course she only presents me with those that made money, taxable. Those that lost she still sits on, hoping they will come back.
I sat holding the paper for most of the night. It was like I was holding proof of marital infidelity.
I would try and talk to her. She explained about all the online reading she would do before making each trade. I tried to tell her that that info was all after the fact. It is just an explanation of why the price is what it is. It has zero predictive value. I tried to explain and would explain to marriage conselors and later to police, state investigators, and to attorneys. It is like watching the television weather report and then getting someone to give you odds as to whether it is right or not. It is just gambling.
Very few women do actually earn money to support themselves in the style they expect. I am not saying that they should. But I am just making an observation which may help explain their actions.
In the case of my wife, money played a huge emotional role, and so it was not just that it was sometimes spent recklessly. Rather, it was an area of insanity to start with.
SJG
Her craziness about money, in part it was just ignorance. In part it was just impressionability. Other people were influencing her, people involved in the pyramid scam. But she was also like this because our marriage was completely dysfunctional and such craziness with money was just her way of expressing that.
SJG
My ex, man she made war against me like I was the singular source of all oppression against women, from time immemorial. She says that I was expecting too much of her and she did not like this. All I was expecting was that she be a partner, a team member, instead of an adversary.
Decades back I told our first marriage counselor, "She is not on board." The counselor agreed.
This ex, she was going to do whatever it took to gain control. She did not care how destructive she was to the living and marital environment. And there were no outside checks on this. How could there be? She waged a war of emotional terrorism.
Night after night for years at a time having to go to sleep in a frightening situation, and then having to get up in the morning to got to go work and then be able to come home at night to more of the same. It was hell. Just from lying in the bed next to her, in fear and desperation as there seemed to be no way out, I learned to pray again. I had not prayed since I was a small child.
This ex destroyed the fabric of life, the basic source from which all creativity and initiative arise. She made it impossible to function.
So of course I had to find ways to start drawing lines, refusing to enable, and demanding change. But it still did not happen.
After years, I finally did get her removed. First thing I did was go outside and start telling people my name and address. See what it meant was that for the first time in years I could start having outside friends again. I did not need to keep up a protective wall. I was suffering from PTSD. I think I still am.
I need to understand it as it gets to what I will and will not do with women, and what sort of women, in the future. I need to be able to have a biography again.
I am trying to mend fences with the ex, by email only. Just yesterday she made the first real admission of culpability ever. She says that if she were to go thru those years again, she would not handle things the same way. It would be different.
It has taken her a long time, many years, to get to this point.
Now I also look at what factors in my background made me vulnerable to becoming trapped in that sort of situation. What factors made my own adult life so vulnerable, and why did I feel a need to be placating this woman even before we were married.
I said before that before I was married I did not go far enough with P4P venues, like AMPs. This is true. I needed more experiences, and then I would not have been willing to accept the terrorism that this ex was offering.
SJG
Discussion about trying to make marriage work as a partnership, as opposed to an externally dictated set of obligations, replying to @georgemicrodong: tuscl.net
Tracking developments with my 3 new Vietnamese massage parlor proto girl friends:
I am trying to keep communications going with these three. But they are not real girl friends, just proto girl friends, because I am stopping short of trying to get them offsite or off of the clock.
Actually there is a second tier of another 3 I am also trying to maintain looser communications with. I made a tally last night, counting just the ones I have actually seen with my own eyes, via window shopping or sessioning in AMPs, from Thanksgiving until now, there are over 30, Vietnamese and Chinese, who could be girl friends for me. I only even consider a girl if I would be happy to be introducing her to my friends and waking up on the mornings with her. I do not divide women into two categories, like potential wives versus hookers. I do not believe in this. But, still I am not actually trying to make this happen, yet.
One of the things which could turn any of them into girl friends is just spending unstructured time with her. We could be going about in the day time to various places and activities, often being in and out of an automobile, eating in restaurants, sharing experiences, talking about all manner of things, spending moderate amounts of money, and always making opportunities to kiss her with only limited privacy.
This sort of thing softens a girl right up. It really gets to her. The more hours of it, the less emotional barriers she has left.
What it is actually like are the times I and my ex-wife used to spend together, back when things were good, i.e. before we were married.
This is one of the reasons I am not doing this now. I still do not really understand all that went wrong between my ex-wife and I. Certainly it very quickly turned to shit once we were married. I see this as saying something more about our society than it does about she or I. But still, I don't want to ruin what is left of my life by going down the same path again. And likewise, I don't think I have the right to ruin the life of another young woman, knowing what I know about how bad things can turn.
In separating from my wife, really having her removed and then invoking court authority to deal with her, it was never my intent to simply trade her in on a newer year model. People always accuse men of doing this, but this is not me.
What I want is for everyone to be able to build some sort of a new way. I don't see marriage, at least not in its conventional form, as any sort of an answer.
I don't actually see P4P as a solution either. You can see that I don't treat the women who do P4P as being somehow tainted. Rather I see it as just an interesting perspective. If you deal with women in both modes, then you come to have a better understanding of them. The women are actually different, you are just seeing how they adapt to different situations and sets of expectations.
The real solution still has to be something else, a 3rd way. This is also why I was intrigued with the posts about marriage made by @georgemicrodong.
SJG
I watch this about the Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead youtube.com
It makes me miss my ex-wife. I am still torn up about her.
It is not so much that I miss day to day life with her. That was a death trap.
Local LE says that when couples fight it is usually about money, sex, or children.
I suggested that when it is about children, maybe it is more bounded. But about money and sex, there are no bounds.
Okay, but there are things which should transcend money and sex. Or at least their should be.
I always assumed we would grow old together, and I guess be buried together.
When she was first gone, I felt exuberant. But then the first time I saw an older couple out for a walk, it really tore me up.
Now I watch a video about approaching death and the afterlife, and I am again torn up.
My ex-wife was not bad, and I am not bad. But marriage, at least how it works in our society, is bad.
I have told my ex that I don't miss what was, I miss what should have been but wasn't.
SJG
People commit to a marriage and so they want it to work, and they try to make it work.
And there should be things more important than money and sex.
Or maybe there should be ways to deal with money and sex which separate them from the marriage.
The marriage should be a life long connection, and one which even goes beyond death, maybe.
SJG
We all have to face the pain.
Driving around at 90mph with Dream Strippers and all the weed in the world doesn't change any of this.
From my perspective there should be some point at which healing occurs. And there should be some sort of reconciliation. Not to recreate the marriage, as that was the problem, but something which transcends the marriage.
In my case I had unhealed wounds and my wife just could not accept this, and so she was also hurting me herself.
This is serious. But at some point though something should still be preserved, or resurrected, of the relationship.
Some different type of relationship. Otherwise the pain will always be there.
And of course the worst is to try and deny this.
SJG
The fatalism which my ex-wife brought into the marriage and used to ruin it, is the same fatalism which she now lives on even more fully post marriage. Don't know if this will ever change either.
SJG
Wah wah wah wah wah.
100,000 words over a few jokes??? Come on people!
Hey they were good jokes. And they offended Rick. That's another plus.
ego bruising:
Reading above Donald Michael Kraig. He really is a good writer. Part of it is his extensive studies in mainstream philosophy. Most occultists and new agers lack this, and so what they write lacks intellectual credibility.
But here I note something in particular, page 188. He writes of being a 'certified Tarot Grandmaster', and of doing readings at psychic fairs. He says that usually at least once for each fair he is approached by a young woman, often with a baby, and telling him something like,
'When I started living with _____, he was very good to me. We have two wonderful children. But after a few years he started drinking, running around with other women, and beating me and the kids. Well, I took this for three years. Then, I finally packed up the kids, moved out, and got a job. About six months later I met a really nice guy. He moved in with the kids and me. But recently he has started drinking, funning around with other women, and hitting me and the kids. What can I do to make him nice again?'
And then Kraig writes, "Of course, there are similar situations with men, only they usually tend to allow themselves to be manipulated until they can no longer take the ego bruising rather than being physically abused. Sometimes, people will tell me the same story has happened to them four or five times."
Lol. You come home and she's fucking sjg but not resisting.
:)
You no longer have to visit her old, Aunt Millie who's a SF Giants fan and think that Juan Marichal is God's gift to baseball.