Casualguy, unfortunately there are people like that in all walks of life, although strip clubs probably attract more than their share.
AN, we'll never know what the facts are. When sex and race are involved in something lilke this, it becomes a political football which makes it impossible to ever get to the facts. Something like this could happen to anyone, but when a bunch of rich white guys hire a couple of black strippers, they're really asking for trouble. That's just dumb.
This case definitely makes you think twice about being alone with a stripper outside of the club. I've met a few strippers who were very ruthless or cut throat in their deals with people, expert liars, and some who would steal from you in a heartbeat if they thought they could get away with it. In fact someone could even offer a course for guys who go to strip clubs. Call the course name How to avoid getting ripped off. You could discuss stripper tactics, lies, and then even pickpocketing and stealing money out of wallets/pockets. Fortunately, most strippers will try to make money just by dancing and enjoy regular customers.
I've read up on this a bit and have now concluded that the prosecution is a completely unjustifiable fraud. A few salient facts.
The initial descriptions the stripper gave match none of the accused. She later changed her descriptions.
One of the accused has an alabi, an ATM camera with the time stamp has his picture when the rape apparently took place. The timeline means he couldn't have been there and at the house for more than a few minutes.
The DNA recovered from inside the stripper (semen) does not match any of the accused. It matches the strippers boyfriend, who has a criminal record.
The "close" DNA sample ( described as a partial match) that connects one of the players to the stripper was recovered from a fake fingernail (not under the fingernail as reported) found discarded in the bathroom wastebasket. There was no blood as previously reported. Can't imagine how DNA could have gotten there, in a bathroom wastebasket, and ended up on a discarded fake fingernail.
The latest suspect initially not only cooperated with the investigation, voluntarily talking with the police without an attorney and providing pictures of the party, the names of other players present, and a DNA sample, he volunteered to take a polygraph test. He was refused by the DA. His defense team has now hired a former FBI polygraph expert and he has taken a polygraph at his own expense and taken a polygraph, which the DA refuses to see.
In short the only conclusive DNA points to someone else, there is no reliable physical evidence to tie any of the accused to the victim, whose story and descriptions have changed, all of the accused have cooperated fully, and gone beyond that to try to resolve the case. The accused are not behaving like guilty men, and the prossecutor is not behaving like someone who is looking for the truth.
The prosecutor appears to be dragging the case out to help his re-election bid. It'll probably work too from what Golfer and Casualguy have said about the politics of the area.
I can see how this story might want to be discussed across the nation. Two strippers come to a party, get drunk and then accuse the team of raping them with no evidence except that she says so. The result, shame on the university, $400,000 bond for each of the 3 or 4 guys indicted before any trial even starts, and the coach resigns. Season over. Avoiding situations like this even if it's all a fabrication or lie from the stripper is what many will be thinking about in my opinion. If the accused are innocent, they are the true victims of a horrendous crime.
First off being a North Carolina guy, anything bad for Duke is a good thing. That being said you need to understand the dynamics of that area. Durham (where Duke is located) is about 45% black. Duke is located on the outskirts of Durham and is an elitist school wided hated by 95% of the population of Durham. The other large school NCCU - is a part of the University system and thus a public school. Back in the old days it was a black university. The fact that these Lacrosse guys (not frat guys) had 2 black strippers there tells me that something was up. I'm not saying that they raped them but I believe that these 35 guys, all but one white having 2 black strippers there was meant to be some sort of mischief. If this case goes to trial it will be a fiasco.
I agree that it shouldn't have been a topic of national discussion in the first place. I also don't think the outcome is anybody's business except those directly involved. So I guess I meant both.
Why is it that the media is so quick to inflate a story that involves sex? I think it's really sad.
FONDL, I tend to agree with you, but I differ on "that's how it should be." Unless you meant it shouldn't be a topic of national discussion in the first place, that I'd agree with. Since it was, even though I recognize what you say about sex crimes and publicity and the media is true, fading away is perhaps the best possible outcome, but certainly not as it should be.
AN, you're forgetting two things: first, you may be innocent until proven guilty in most criminal cases, but the situation is reversed when you're talking about a sexual crime. And second, the words "media" and "decency" are mutually exclusive concepts.
I'm still wondering if there really was a rape or just an angry dancer getting revenge on some rich stuck up dudes for not paying her as much as she wanted for the party. For the time being I haven't heard of proof one way or the other. She was drunk so I don't know how credible her testimony will be without any supporting evidence. I suppose when a girl cries rape, the media immediately places guilt and punishment on the accused regardless if the accuser is lying or not. Perhaps the accuser has proof but I haven't heard about it yet.
FONDL, I would agree with you except that the names and pictures of some of the students have been flashed around and publicized as possible rapists. If there is nothing to the case the press should have the decency to clear their names with the same vigor. The best they can hope for is a sympathetic puff piece in the local Style or Metro section about their ordeal 3 years later. As for the victim, her name and picture have been protected by the media, which is probably as it should be.
And, AN, I think that's how it should be. I don't think those kind of details belong in the news. It serves no purpose except to satisfy nosey and prurient curiousity. I recently heard that newspaper circulation declined last year by nearlly 3%. If that's true, I think the focus on stories like this has a lot ot do with it.
Since this has faded from the headlines I haven't followed it. I'm not surprised that the case is looking shakier however. When the entire team voluntarily gave DNA samples and there was no match found on the victim that made me pretty suspicious. I do however think FONDL is right, we will never know exactly what happened. The story will fade into obscurity and there will be a few lines like "charges dropped" or "out of court settlement in a civil suit" but that's probably about it.
Newsweek has a cover story about the case--it is the May 1, 2006 issue. Both of the alleged rapists come from very wealthy backgrounds, of course. But it sounds like they may not be guilty after all!
Except that you almost never get the facts during or after the case - either there's an out-of-court settlement or many of the facts aren't permitted to be presented in court. In high profile cases like this, it's usually the skill of the attourneys that determines the outcome, not the facts. Which is why I think our court system sucks. The OJ trial made that very clear.
Parodyman, just to clarify, to me the term "student-athlete" implies that the person is a student first, an athlete second. Unfortunately the term is usually applied to the jocks who run around on TV on fall Saturday afternoons, nearly all of whom were recruited to raise money and prestige for their schools with little regard to their academic ability or interest. And the few who would like to be students have difficulty doing so because of the pressures of their sport. I enjoy wathcing my major state university cream other schools as much as the next guy, but I think we should be honest about what's going on. For the most part these jocks are not students in any true sense of the word. Seems to me the NFL can afford their own farm teams, which is what big-time college football has become.
It's always best to wait until the case is tried before commenting on the facts. But that's old school thinking. Today, everyone stakes his or her claim to the truth before the facts are known or discovered. Media has to feed something to the public daily.
Parodyman, my comments were directed at the kids who get into schools that otherwise wouldn't accept them only because they are good athletes, and then don't take advantage of the opportunity either because they're intellectually incapable of doing so or they have little interest; and at the college administrations who allow that to happen. I think there should be another division in college sports for such kids where the athletes get paid instead of being exploited as many are now. I think the way things are done at the division I level especially is outrageous - schools making big bucks by exploiting kids who have little chance of or interest in getting a decent education. But then again I have a very low opinion of college administrations in general. And one of the things that pisses me off is schools admitting athletes who don't meet minimum academic standards that the other kids have to meet. I'd rather see that scholarship go to some poor kid who can really benefit from the opportunity to get a good education.
I think playing sports is good for serious students and I have a lot of respect for real students who also pursue sports - both my sons played a varsity sport in college. But they did it at the division III level where education comes first and where admission is based on academic ability, not athletic ability. Any school that doesn't follow such a policy is making a mockery of the term "student-athlete." Hence my comment.
FONDL: Sorry pal but I have a little problem with something you posted on this thread. You wrote, "I agree that while the student-atheletes (an oxymoron if there ever was one) ..." While I agree a disturbing number of atheletes get a complete pass there are also a good number who are good students.
To those who are both atheletes and students attending a university an atheletic scholarship is like a full time job. You have to train, practice and perform in school events and for exchange for this service (which is an extremely lucrative benefit for the university) you get an opportunity to obtain a quality education. Many take this dead seriously and treat it like a job.
I have met people from all walks of life who do not fit the student-athelete stereotype. They never had any real intentions of a professional atheletic career. Sports was just a vehicle to get them an education.
FONDL I have a great deal of respect for you and what you have to say. I guess I had expected better from you in the stereotyping department.
AN: I think people who claim that they are physical science professors on Internet message boards but then demonstrate that they do not know godel's theorem is, what a turing award is, what bayes's theorem is, how to calculate limits at a first year level are the most dishonest reprehensible people there are. But that's ok, it's quite easy for us to weed them out. (In fact one guy claimed to do this on this very message board, but it was clear that he was only a MERE BARTENDER.)
Nah, they're all lying whores, the most reprehensibly dishonest poeple in the world, they deserve what they get, but what you really should want is to date them OTC, for free, cause then it's OK. And if you don't want to date them there must be something wrong with you, or you're lying.
The better looking strippers are all working at strip clubs where the real money and safety are. Most dancers are too smart to even put themselves in the situation these two idiots found themselves in. No matter what the outcome is they put themselves in harms way. No woman deserves to be attacked or forced to do anything against their will but come on ladies! Grow a fucking brain!
And just so we're clear I also think the team is a bunch of morons. If you don't want to be accused of gang rape don't bring unescorted strippers to your unsupervised drunken frat party.
FONDL, I'm usually a somewhere in the middle guy myself. My first thought was that a drunk stripper agreed to something she shouldn't have, and it got out of hand. Lately however, and I only catch a few snippets here and there, I'm getting a little more suspicious.
The entire team gave voluntary DNA samples to the police. If that isn't complete cooperation I don't know what is. There was no DNA match for any player on the team despite the stripper having been thoroughly examined and swabbed for samples within hours of the alleged event, with no intervening shower or night's sleep or anything.
We'll never know what really happened but, as with many situations like this, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. One of the things that bothers me the most, and this may have already changed since I usually pay little attention to stuff like this which I don't consider to be newsworthy except in the local area, is it was reported that none of the people present are saying anything. I think anyone who attended the party and doesn't cooperate fully with the police should be kicked out of school.
Lopaw, sadly it may be the case that a civil lawsuit is the goal here. Apparently the three arrested are the wealthiest members of the team, and not those first identified. Something smells about this case, no DNA at all and the defendants lawyers are the ones demanding the case go to trial. I fear this will not end well for anyone involved.
The other problem with this case is that, well you have to lay some blame on the victim. This isn't to excuse any wrongdoing on the part of the team. No, if what the woman claims is true she didn't deserve it, but it's like walking down the middle of the street in the worst neighborhood in town singing "I'm in the money" riffing a huge stack of bills. You can't really be too surprised when you get mugged, but that doesn't excuse the mugger.
I'm not entirely clear on the details, but from what I understand there were two girls with no security, both got drunk, and then one left the other alone. Any woman should know better. A stripper, who by the nature of her job attracts stalkers and people who are confused about the nature of her job should know much better.
davids/Clifbar wrote: "Everyone should know better than to believe strippers to begin with: One of the most dishonest groups of people on earth!" Is that next to FORTUNE TELLING, FAUX-SCIENTIST, COCKMASTERS like you?
lopaw: Plus Yoda is going to have to pull off the ass kissing routine of his life to get them out of that jam. Strippers lying? I can hear him now: "Strippers lying? My little angels? Impossible. Those Duke boys were just pissed off b/c the strippers won't put out, so hired some expensive lawyers and bribed people to get even with the strippers".
Everyone should know better than to believe strippers to begin with: One of the most dishonest groups of people on earth!
What sucks about cases like this is that if it turns that the dancer(s) are lying, it makes it that much harder on women that really are assaulted in situations like this. All credibility flies out the window.
I agree that they oughta throw the book at these women if it turns out that they are lying.
I'm wondering what evidence of rape there is. I can easily imagine someone smelling money or "blood" etc and pursuing the case hoping to get a windfall just to settle the case. If there is no evidence, I believe the accusers should have to pay all legal fees.
"Please just pretend like I never even made this post. It is completely pointless."
When someone gives you a gift like that it's almost rude to ignore it, which was probably the point. What can I say. Redundant? Maybe suggest we wallow in the irony... Nope, he said it best.
When we're all in on the same joke, the humor works.
Now in all seriousness I think this story resonates, especially in the south because the narrative is a bunch of priveledged white boys getting out of hand and taking advantage of a black girl who is just trying to make something better out of her life, even if it costs her something in the short term. That doesn't however mean it's true. There are quite a few disturbing aspects to this case. Choose your favorite. The best thing is to step back and wait.
Didn't that fat, old, washed up alcoholic who pretends to be a professor/researcher/physicist (when he can't even do first year math) claim to have gone to Duke?
On no, wait, it was another ivy league school: Yale (same as our illustrious president). My bad. Please just pretend like I never even made this post. It is completely pointless.
A sports team from a large scholastic institution is accused of raping one or more women. This isn't exactly an unheard of situation. I don't really think that it's any of our business one way or the other. We need to get our noses out of it and let the police do their job. The fact that she's a stripper is mostly irrelevent, if you ask me.
There are only 2 things that you can be sure of in this case: first that the media will sensationalize it beyond all reason, and second that they will get the facts wrong. I agree that while the student-atheletes (an oxymoron if there ever was one) may not have been guilty of rape they certainly were guilty of stupidity, and that should be enough to warrant kicking them out of a top-notch school.
No offense to all the sensible Duke alumni but I do understand what I heard on the news about a number of people at Duke acting like they are the "cock of the walk" or better than many of the other people. I guess you could compare some Duke fans to davids, very similiar in my opinion. Of course I am from a rival school so I'm not that fond of them anyway. I can easily understand a stripper getting upset at someone from Duke and trying to get even. I don't know if this was the case or not or some frat boys trying to take advantage of a drunk girl.
hmmm, I think the first stripper I saw in person was at an unsupervised fraternity party. I don't remember getting drunk though. I think I drank more at an unsupervised sorority party. The girls kept giving me more and more beer. :) I was thinking I might be getting into it a bit too much when we were dancing and one girl asked me if I could handle 5 girls and I said sure.
As far as the Duke case goes, I'll wait for further updates.
48 comments
Latest
AN, we'll never know what the facts are. When sex and race are involved in something lilke this, it becomes a political football which makes it impossible to ever get to the facts. Something like this could happen to anyone, but when a bunch of rich white guys hire a couple of black strippers, they're really asking for trouble. That's just dumb.
The initial descriptions the stripper gave match none of the accused. She later changed her descriptions.
One of the accused has an alabi, an ATM camera with the time stamp has his picture when the rape apparently took place. The timeline means he couldn't have been there and at the house for more than a few minutes.
The DNA recovered from inside the stripper (semen) does not match any of the accused. It matches the strippers boyfriend, who has a criminal record.
The "close" DNA sample ( described as a partial match) that connects one of the players to the stripper was recovered from a fake fingernail (not under the fingernail as reported) found discarded in the bathroom wastebasket. There was no blood as previously reported. Can't imagine how DNA could have gotten there, in a bathroom wastebasket, and ended up on a discarded fake fingernail.
The latest suspect initially not only cooperated with the investigation, voluntarily talking with the police without an attorney and providing pictures of the party, the names of other players present, and a DNA sample, he volunteered to take a polygraph test. He was refused by the DA. His defense team has now hired a former FBI polygraph expert and he has taken a polygraph at his own expense and taken a polygraph, which the DA refuses to see.
In short the only conclusive DNA points to someone else, there is no reliable physical evidence to tie any of the accused to the victim, whose story and descriptions have changed, all of the accused have cooperated fully, and gone beyond that to try to resolve the case. The accused are not behaving like guilty men, and the prossecutor is not behaving like someone who is looking for the truth.
The prosecutor appears to be dragging the case out to help his re-election bid. It'll probably work too from what Golfer and Casualguy have said about the politics of the area.
Why is it that the media is so quick to inflate a story that involves sex? I think it's really sad.
AN, you're forgetting two things: first, you may be innocent until proven guilty in most criminal cases, but the situation is reversed when you're talking about a sexual crime. And second, the words "media" and "decency" are mutually exclusive concepts.
I think playing sports is good for serious students and I have a lot of respect for real students who also pursue sports - both my sons played a varsity sport in college. But they did it at the division III level where education comes first and where admission is based on academic ability, not athletic ability. Any school that doesn't follow such a policy is making a mockery of the term "student-athlete." Hence my comment.
To those who are both atheletes and students attending a university an atheletic scholarship is like a full time job. You have to train, practice and perform in school events and for exchange for this service (which is an extremely lucrative benefit for the university) you get an opportunity to obtain a quality education. Many take this dead seriously and treat it like a job.
I have met people from all walks of life who do not fit the student-athelete stereotype. They never had any real intentions of a professional atheletic career. Sports was just a vehicle to get them an education.
FONDL I have a great deal of respect for you and what you have to say. I guess I had expected better from you in the stereotyping department.
Couldn't those rich kids afford a better looking stripper?
The entire team gave voluntary DNA samples to the police. If that isn't complete cooperation I don't know what is. There was no DNA match for any player on the team despite the stripper having been thoroughly examined and swabbed for samples within hours of the alleged event, with no intervening shower or night's sleep or anything.
The other problem with this case is that, well you have to lay some blame on the victim. This isn't to excuse any wrongdoing on the part of the team. No, if what the woman claims is true she didn't deserve it, but it's like walking down the middle of the street in the worst neighborhood in town singing "I'm in the money" riffing a huge stack of bills. You can't really be too surprised when you get mugged, but that doesn't excuse the mugger.
I'm not entirely clear on the details, but from what I understand there were two girls with no security, both got drunk, and then one left the other alone. Any woman should know better. A stripper, who by the nature of her job attracts stalkers and people who are confused about the nature of her job should know much better.
Everyone should know better than to believe strippers to begin with: One of the most dishonest groups of people on earth!
I agree that they oughta throw the book at these women if it turns out that they are lying.
When someone gives you a gift like that it's almost rude to ignore it, which was probably the point. What can I say. Redundant? Maybe suggest we wallow in the irony... Nope, he said it best.
When we're all in on the same joke, the humor works.
On no, wait, it was another ivy league school: Yale (same as our illustrious president). My bad. Please just pretend like I never even made this post. It is completely pointless.
As far as the Duke case goes, I'll wait for further updates.