discussion comment
14 years ago
I believe it, mikeeeemiller. Not everyone has a price. There are certain lines that some people will not cross for any amount of money, even if they freely cross lines that some may see as very close to those that they adamantly refuse to cross.
There was a story on here a while ago about a dancer who attacked a customer rather viciously after he propositioned her. Of course, such occurrences are rare, and I am sure that is not going to happen in your situation, but they have been known to happen, so I would just be careful in general.
discussion comment
14 years ago
I agree with Prim0 that there should be limits to freedom of speech. Speech that incites violence, or fraudulent speech, for example, ought to remain illegal. I have heard the official United States government claim that the releases endanger American lives, and from what I have heard, wikileaks has even asked the government if it would help wikileaks "scrub" the releases to remove especially sensitive information, which, I imagine, may include the identities of confidential sources or other such people who would directly be put at risk, and the government refused to help wikileaks to identify and remove such information.
To some extent, even speech that indirectly poses a threat ought to be protected, in my opinion, whereas speech that directly poses a threat ought not to be protected. For example, I would say that a release that shows American soldiers doing something wrong, which then results in further general international anger against the USA would be warranted and should be protected. Whistle-blowing is important to the ability of any organization to be able to make corrections to bad behavior, instead of simply covering it up and allowing it to continue. It is true that a general increase in the level of anti-American sentiment might result, and that might result in one more attack than otherwise might have been carried out, and that might result in one more death than might have otherwise occurred. However, the progression of causes and effects I just illustrated is too long and indirect to be traced. The fact that a certain release would make some people upset is insufficient cause to justify banning it, especially if it reveals unjustifiable action. I have no sympathy for soldiers who violate rules of engagement or who commit war crimes. If we do not endorse their criminal actions, then we should feel no shame in revealing them.
On the other hand, speech that outs a specific informant, spy, or other covert operator who has been performing their job honorably would result in specific, rather than general, harm, and thus, I would say that such a release would not be warranted and should not be protected.
As far as I have heard, there have been no such releases from wikileaks that directly put anyone in danger. I agree with Prim0 that no such release should be tolerated. If something of that nature ever does happen, though, I would hope that the government could deal with it openly and honorably according to the rule of law.
discussion comment
14 years ago
I agree with georgmicrodong. I would not hold much hope in continuing "to work on her." If you have discussed it and she has told you "no," then I would leave it at that, regardless of my feelings about her. It is far better to walk away from someone who might have given you what you want than to push too hard and scare or upset someone who is not interested in giving you what you want, and from what I have read so far, my guess is that you are closer to the latter.
discussion comment
14 years ago
I heard on the radio some suspicion that the whole deal with his arrest and extradition to Sweden could be overblown for the purpose of eventually putting him physically in the hands of the United States government. I presume that this would be so that they can do whatever they feel they need to do in order to stop him and perhaps to make an example of him so that others would be less likely to publish leaked material like this.
I can certainly see where big johnson can justify his opinion that Assange has damaged the United States, but it would seem, from my perspective, that all he has done is publish some embarrassing truths. Some of the things that have been published on wikileaks offer a very disturbing raw glimpse into the way that American agents execute their duties. However, if we do not take notice of and bring to light the ugly side of what our representatives are doing, then we can neither stop those things that are truly wrong nor give our consent to those things that are truly necessary.
Every citizen has an equal stake in the government, and I feel that we have a right to know how our representatives, who are in a way our own employees, who administer their duties only by the consent of us, the governed, actually conduct their business.
In my opinion, he has advanced truth in a real way by offering the world a site for the indiscriminate exposure of sensitive government information, and also for strongly standing by it. If the public face of the United States or any other country suffers because of it, then it would seem to me that they have themselves to blame, not for allowing the release of the information, but for doing the very things that those releases show them doing.
In conclusion, I agree with big johnson that governments must play by the rules. It is my sincere hope that Assange receives the full and complete measure of his rights and responsibilities in accordance with the rule of law with regard to all of his dealings. If he did, in fact, break the law in Sweden, then he should receive a just and fair penalty in accordance with the way that that particular law is routinely enforced. If not, then he should be released.
With all due respect to alternate opinions, with thanks to those who have brought this topic to our attention and to those who have commented on it, and with a sincere hope that this discourse remains coherent and civil, I now relinquish the soapbox.
discussion comment
14 years ago
I agree with Prim0. Whenever I get a little upset at conservative regulation here in the United States of America, all I need is to look to Asia, Africa, or the Middle East to see how things could be much worse.
I do not consider myself to be patriotic, but when I was coming back home from a trip abroad, a friend of mine and I felt compelled to sing "The Star Spangled Banner" together as we saw the flag at the airport as we were landing. America is not perfect by a long shot, but I would count us as in a better situation than most of the world.
Agreed, Prim0. Go America.
discussion comment
14 years ago
I wholeheartedly agree with Dazymaz. I think the problems with the sex trade arise in areas where the sex trade is illegal or is too tightly restricted. First of all, if overly restrictive laws are enforced, then the trade gets pushed out of nicer, safer places and is abandoned by nicer, safer providers and customers alike. That just leaves the meaner, more dangerous element left running the business in that area.
Even if the laws are not strictly enforced, if it is still illegal, then there are certain de facto restrictions that are imposed on the practitioners in order to keep from being so obvious that law enforcement has to act or is likely to decide to act. This can lead to confusion and problems with different groups of people, some of whom try to follow the rules, while others try to push them. This can cause some people, even if they know how far the law permits them to go, to be confused with regard to how far they will in fact be allowed to go, resulting in some people resenting those who go farther without being punished, and others going too far and getting in trouble, who would not have done so otherwise.
I appreciate that law enforcement is not as zealous in their fight against the sex trade here in Texas as they could be. They certainly could be more proactive. If we hobbyists can find sex at massage parlors and strip clubs and with escorts, then certainly law enforcement can find it, too, and even stop it, but it seems that they do not do so, at least not very much. From what I have read, it seems to primarily depend on whether or not someone in the community complains.
As I said, I am glad that the sex trade laws are not strictly enforced here in Texas, but I believe that things could be much safer and nicer for everyone involved if we could just elect lawmakers who would repeal laws prohibiting the sex trade. I would not mind a little regulation in exchange for the legitimacy and safety that it would afford. But, oh, well. I do not anticipate that happening in this or the next generation, so we must make do with what we have.
I applaud Canada, though, for actually being relatively progressive in this area. The fact that they are actually taking steps to remove inappropriate restrictions is a very good sign. Maybe even Texas will progress to a more liberal society someday, and if I am very, very lucky, it may even be within my lifetime.
discussion comment
14 years ago
In another thread, it was mentioned in an interview with a man who worked in a strip club that the rules are more strictly enforced in more upscale establishments. They also said that you do not see too many white-collar guys in the more average or dive establishments. That makes me curious.
What is the appeal of the more upscale establishments if the price is higher and the mileage and extras are lower? Are they able to sustain themselves purely because more wealthy patrons are willing to spend extra money just to be around women who are a couple of "points" more beautiful?
Where do the white collar guys looking for extras go if not to the average strip clubs? If there are not many white collar guys at the average or dive strip clubs, and there are few to no extras at upscale establishments, then where do they go?
discussion comment
14 years ago
Stay out of champagne rooms? I am a bit confused. What is the alternative? Every champagne room I have ever been in provided significantly higher quality service than any part of any club outside of a champagne room.
I am a little unclear. It serves as a trial run for what? Are you referring to OTC encounters?
discussion comment
14 years ago
Oh, about the champagne room, I have another bit of advice. Make sure you remember to tip the waitress who gets your champagne and/or sets up your spot in the champagne room. I made the mistake of not tipping the waitress for one such incident. It just completely slipped my mind and never occurred to me that I was supposed to tip her for that. I guess I was focused on other things. Anyway, it resulted in some poor treatment from that waitress. I will not go into details, but when I, with the help of a dancer, figured out what was going on, I went up to the waitress and apologized, handing her a $20 bill. I think that fixed things.
discussion comment
14 years ago
I have heard this same assertion, farmerart. While I do not remember where I heard it, it was from some source that I remember trusting. I believe that there is a chemical in semen that makes women happier when they take it in through the vagina. However, I have not looked for any specific study to cite to add evidence to this claim.
I also remember hearing about a study that found that women who were given a few drops of male sweat on their upper lip were happier for the rest of the day on average than those who were given a placebo. I believe that there are pheromones and other such things that subconsciously encourage us to have sex.
Of course, if conception were a voluntary action per se, and if there were no such thing as a communicable disease, then this would be a very relevant reason to avoid contraception. Unfortunately, we do not live in that wonderful hypothetical world, so I still encourage people everywhere to ALWAYS use a condom and to always use it properly, unless they are trying to cause a pregnancy with someone they completely trust to be clean.
discussion comment
14 years ago
I had never heard of Dead Serious News before, so I was not aware it was a fake news site, but after checking it out, I am pretty sure that it is as fake as the Onion. After all, they have an article that WikiLeaks is going to release thousands of documents concerning the Cummings arrest. Ha ha.
At first, I was angry at TSA. Now that I know the story was fake, I am just embarrassed that I believed it for a whole minute.
discussion comment
14 years ago
It is so sad to see that people can get away with such horror. I am so sorry for that poor woman and those who cared for her. I share in CTQWERTY's hope that the loser who did this gets brought to justice.
I do hope that the police are willing to overlook any lesser crimes in their pursuit of this murderer. By that, I mean that I hope that relatively innocent parties with information on the incident can feel safe coming to the police with the truth, even if it means implicating themselves in a victimless crime.
discussion comment
14 years ago
I laughed out loud at this story. It it sometimes pretty awesome to enjoy the stupidity of others. Thank you very much for sharing!
discussion comment
14 years ago
<p>Hello, GGz12. Welcome to the site. You can check out my profile to see that I am pretty young and have only been in the hobby for a couple of years, but I would be happy to humbly impart my own answers based on my limited experience. Take it with the others as you will.</p>
<p>In answer to your question about dancers letting patrons slide on paying for dances, let me say that, while I have only been in the hobby for a couple of years, I had never heard of any dancer letting a patron slide when it came to paying for dances. After all, they only do it to make money. To be perfectly honest, my feeling is that you should be careful and never expect that treatment. In fact, I would say that you were lucky that you did not get in trouble over it. For this reason, if I were you, I would offer to pay for those dances you got for free last time the next time you see that dancer, but then again, that may just be me. At any rate, it may make her feel better about you. I like to be generous to those who have been respectful to me and not been putting on too much pressure to get my money, and it sounds like she gave you some good treatment by not making you pay.</p>
<p>Should we buy dancers drinks? That is up to you. It is not required, and, for the most part, I do not think that you will be thought of as cheap if you do not buy them drinks. A few may ignore you if you refuse to buy them a drink when they ask you to do so, but most will not ask you to buy them drinks. When I am feeling good and generous, and when I want to be thought of well, I do like to ask if I may buy a dancer a drink if I want to keep her attention.</p>
<p>How much should you tip for a lap dance? There is some debate on this issue, but from what I understand, no tipping is necessary for lap dances. You only must pay what the price is, which is usually $20 per song. If you like a dancer, you can just pay for more songs, and that is enough to keep them happy, I have found. However, if you would like to maintain the special interest of that dancer, or if you are feeling in a generous mood, you can throw in an extra $10-$20 after several dances or whatever feels comfortable to you.</p>
<p>Do we ask for extras, or do we wait for them to bring it up? Sometimes they will bring it up, and sometimes they will not. Even if they do not bring it up, they may be willing to perform if you bring it up. The key, as I understand it, is discretion and caution. Both patrons and dancers would like to avoid uncomfortable situations with law enforcement or other whistle blowers, such as competitive dancers or strict management. Wait until you feel pretty comfortable with a specific dancer before bringing it up. I would not just ask the one that looks the best right away. Next, once I am comfortable with the dancer, I usually spend a bit more time with her to give her the opportunity to bring it up. If she does not and I am pretty interested, I will ask something relatively innocuous like, "Would you like to go to the champagne room with me?" since most dancers know that VIP rooms like that are common places for the boundaries of the applicable regulations to be pushed. At that point, they may quote you a price, they may tell you exactly what they will do for you, or they may ask you more specifically, "Go to the VIP room and do what?" Use your instinct and try to read them as well as you can.</p>
<p>Some dancers will do extras, and some will not. There are stories out there of some dancers becoming very offended, possibly even violently so, over a patron propositioning them inappropriately, so just be careful. Most of the time, if you ask her to the VIP room, a dancer will give you some vague hint of what she would be willing to do. At some point along the way, if she does extras, she should take control and let you know what she will do so you should not have to say anything too explicit. In general, I try to avoid saying anything too explicit.</p>
<p>As for dancers on the stage, if you want a little stage dance, usually even just $1 would be acceptable, but if you want to be nice, you can go up there with $2 or $3. I have successfully captured the interest of a few dancers to come check up on me after their stage dances by giving them an entire $5 tip on stage. That, in my opinion, sends a strong "see me when you can" message. Most places, if you go up to the stage holding a bill or two in your hand down at the stage's floor level, they will give you a bit of personal attention as they dance for the next few seconds, and then let you slip the bill(s) into their g-string or garter. However, there are places where they must keep their distance from patrons while they are on stage. You may be able to identify these by a blue line on the stage separating the dancers from the patrons. The dancers may not cross this blue line, so, in those cases, the primary purpose of stage tipping is to get their attention to come see you afterward, in which case, I would tip more heavily per tip, but much less frequently, for certain.</p>
<p>Now, for meeting a dancer off-stage, I strongly recommend the full measure of respect and professionalism with which you would normally meet new people in a professional setting. By that, I mean that a smile and handshake, while keeping your hands to yourself for the time being, goes a long way toward making her more comfortable with you. Of course, if the first thing she does when she sees you is sit on your lap and grab your crotch, that is a clear signal that you are allowed to be a bit more liberal with your initial greeting, but even in that extreme case, I would keep it under her level of enthusiasm at first.</p>
<p>If I am not really interested in a dancer, and she approaches me, I try to smile and politely say "Thank you, but I am not interested." That usually gets them to move on. Even if a dancer hops right into your lap, do not feel pressured to give them your time and money. Just politely and respectfully send them on their way, if you are not interested.</p>
<p>Now, on the other hand, if you are interested, I would smile, shake hands, respond positively but subtly to any touching she initiates, and engage her in conversation. Conversation helps to make you both more comfortable with each other, and it can particularly help you get a feel for whether she is going to be professional and respectful herself, or if she is going to be annoying or applying high pressure.</p>
<p>When you feel comfortable, you can be totally up front in asking for personal dances. Most places I have found, you may assume $20/song, but it does not hurt to ask to be sure. Some places have a higher standard price. If there is an option for a more secluded area for personal dances that is not a full champagne room, for example, an area that costs $10 per night to enter, but is still occasionally patrolled by bouncers, but not an area that requires a $100 champagne purchase to enter, I would take it, as that will help you have a more private, enjoyable experience, and it can make it easier for the subject of extras to come up from there.</p>
<p>Finally, be aware of how much money you have and how much you have spent, so that you never get more than you can afford. Also, as with casinos, impulse control is severely tested in clubs, so only walk in with the money you are willing to lose.</p>
<p>This was a hell of a long post, I know, but it contains all of the advice I can think to give to a rookie off the top of my head. I wish you all the best in an enjoyable hobby!</p>
discussion comment
14 years ago
Maybe it is my lack of experience, maybe it is my different personal perception of beauty, or maybe it is a bit of both, but I think I have only once ever seen a dancer that I thought was too heavy for me, and I definitely have limits. For example, 180 lbs is probably too heavy for me, but almost all the dancers I have seen have been well within my tolerance. I wonder if that means that I, myself, am one of the "chubby chasers," to use bumrubber's term. Come to think of it, I think the majority of my girlfriends, including my current one, have been overweight. Hmmm.... Well, if anyone of the opinion that people like us perform a valuable service at clubs happens to be in the Waco/Austin/Houston/College Station region of central Texas sometime, maybe drop me a line!
Now, I enjoy petite dancers, as well. I can only recall one time that I found a dancer who was too skinny and bony for me, and I did not much care for her personality, either. I think Clubber was right in his original post. I also agree with jackslash. The people with different tastes help to distribute the demand around. For example, I am primarily interested in Caucasian dancers. I appreciate the patrons who like the other ethnicities, so that I get approached by more of "my type." I like the weight distribution about the way that it is. I would not want to see everyone lose a bunch of weight.
Then again, I think shadowcat is probably right about campaigns by management being able to have a strong "slimming" effect on their dancers by encouraging them to slim down and by replacing them with slimmer talent. My thoughts on that are that the market will probably know what to do. If there is enough demand for a certain weight range, then let them stay, and let those patrons distract the dancers you don't like. Otherwise, if there is not enough demand for a given weight range, then let those dancers slim down or get out. However things work out, I think I will still be happy.
discussion comment
14 years ago
Player11, what is the acronym "POP?"
I have found that I can spend close to $900 on a single visit, and I have done that multiple times in a month. I know I should not do that, and most months, I have enough self control to not go at all, but once or twice a year, depending on other factors, I lose that control and blow a few thousand in one month.
discussion comment
14 years ago
I have been to a couple of massage parlors, myself, and I considered going to more, but I decided that I would be happier at strip clubs. Besides the whole moral issue of possible victims of human trafficking and such like that, I do not speak any Asian language, and, in my limited experience, that makes it very difficult or even impossible to have a conversation with a masseuse. So, I might get my money's worth from a massage, and it might cost me much less than similar services from a stripper, but at least with a stripper, I can usually have a conversation, first.
Also, I do not think of myself as being very picky when it comes to race, but I still do not find myself attracted to Asians so much, and I have not seen any masseuses that were not Asian.
article comment
14 years ago
This was a brilliant, fascinating article! Thank you very much for posting it here.