I broke the number one rule and became attached to my atf. We went out for about a year and did just about everything. Well now it's troublesome that we've ended it so feel free to say I told you so. I am following some advice though and have already lined up new girls, one in partcular that is super hot and willing. I have no feelings for her so now it seems like going through the motions (but this is what guys do, right?) and frankly isn't as enjoyable. How do I get back to the animalistic mode and just do 'em and enjoy? I guarantee you that anyone would kill for the opportunity in front of me (Otc and all wishes) but it's not doing it for me. Am I disbarred from the frat?
For me here's the key question: Do you have a regular woman in your life (wife or girlfriend) who is your source of emotional support?
If not, then I think you are going to keep falling into this "atf trap." Most guys, even the really hardbitten ones, tend to look to for a woman who will be their love interest/emotional support, whatever you want to call it. If you don't have someone like that in your life already, then when you are hanging out with strippers and hookers, you are naturally going to gravitate toward trying to use them to fill that void. It's hard to maintain a pure "fuck buddy" relationship with someone under those circumstances. I think you will naturally start developing feelings for her.
There's nothing inherently wrong with dating strippers and hookers, mind you. They have relationships with guys. Contrary to a lot of the mean stereotypes about them on this site, many of them are perfectly fine. The problem is that you are starting off as a paying customer, and so the lines get pretty blurry and the "relationship" gets tricky. If she just keeps seeing you as a customer, you are being set up for a fall. There are a number of guys on this site who have posted about how confused and upset they were when their ATF suddenly left without a forwarding address (or they found out they were sleeping around, or whatever). What really confused them, of course, is that it was supposed to be a purely fuck buddy relationship, but somewhere along the line they started developing feelings for her.
If you do not have a regular gf/wife whom you love, then I suggest finding that person first, and laying off the strippers/hookers for a while. It's not surprising that given the way you are feeling right now, that you are not finding the sex only relationship unsatisfying. That's because you are really looking for something more. Seeing a stripper/hooker, no matter how hot she is, when you don't have any feelings for her, is not going to fill that void.
On the other hand, if you do have a wife/gf you love, then just spend lots of time with her. Don't worry, you'll get bored soon enough, your eyes will start to wander, and before you know it you'll be back to enjoying sex with semi-strangers.
But my main point is don't use a pay-for-play sex buddy deal as a substitute for a relationship. Unless you are a truly and utterly heartless bastard, you will always end up unhappy.
"But my main point is don't use a pay-for-play sex buddy deal as a substitute for a relationship. Unless you are a truly and utterly heartless bastard, you will always end up unhappy."
YIKES!!! :) Real relationships end in disaster too. In fact, that seems like it is written in granite. Is there pain when a pay-for-play dancer kicks me to the curb, directly or indirectly? Yes, if it was a long term arrangement. I miss Gambling dancer and it hurts, but compared to FREE the pain isn't bad at all. It is like night and day, which is one reason a customer, imo, must demand that the relationship be PAID! No free lunches, but a free drink here and there for good behaviour.
Fantasy, imo, is much better than a real relationship where a woman will rip your heart out, steal all your money, and drag you thru the corrupt courts (the corrupt courts normally assume you were dumb enough to agree to a government licensed marriage, but there is "palimony" to make sure smarties suffer, too).
Just using the stripper as a hole or hand seems kind of boring, imo. I need the powerful emotions of the GFE, but realize it is PAID for; screw the FREE lunch.
I have to agree,in large measure with njscfan. Relationships, in any venue are difficult. I have experienced what you are feeling now and it's difficult. I don't know that I agree with sticking to pay-for-play however although I've not gone that route myself. I think, ime, that the biggest problem is not moving from paying customer to relationship partner but rather in the ability of the lady to give of herself. In truth, the ability in the relationship to separate her from her the dancer can, in and of itself be difficult and will require some degree of strenth and understanding on your part. There are some seriously fine ladies out there who if you met under different circumstances you would never guess were strippers. The most common problem I find is their inability to let themselves go completely and accept what you have to give. In some cases this is a result fears or hangups from prior relationships which can be further complicated by their experinces in the clubs which cause, no matter how supressed, a jaded view of men. At some point this combination surfaces and creates doubts, probably not expressed but there anyway. The only thing you can do, imho, is to gird yourself for the possible if not probable eventuality that they will at some point bolt. This, in some case is a real shame as the potential they may have within them as a partner can be tremendous. If you find someone that you feel is worth the risk go for it but never forget the likelyhood that it will end unexpectedly.
"Both risk and reward are higher for unpaid relationships. So the question becomes: Are you feeling lucky?"
Unpaid Relationships seem like playing Russian Roulette with five chambered rounds in a six cylinder revolver. Paid Relationships seem less insane and hence, imo, higher reward. :)
Getting an emotional kick out of a certain dancer can be very enjoyable, however there's no real good answer to the question you've posed, other than a very expensive answer: that's having multiple ultra-hot ATFs at the same time because it avoids the exclusivity factor which seems to be the root cause of most these issues relating to emotional entanglements. You still can have that emotional kick going on, its just that you won't put them on as quite a high a pedestal as you otherwise might, and they generally know or figure out you've commoditized them to some degree, and (yes its true) it IMHO tends to be a net benefit to kicking up the chemistry thing, and most of the girls at this level are used to special treatment from customers typically a few decades older.
I was beginning to get an emotional kick (define as you see fit; but really, you KNOW WHAT I MEAN) out of one of the dancers at Scores on Bourbon Street. Funny, that limerence for a dancer utterly disappeared right out of my head when one of the female attorneys at the criminal court asked me out for a lunchtime "conversation about your plans."
The only reliable way to avoid emotional involvement with strippers is to stop paying them. You'll learn very quickly how artificial their emotional involvement with you has been. The question is whether you would want to do that, or whether you like the artifice and want to continue with it. Presuming you wouldn't want it to end, at least contemplating it should impress upon you that the emotions you're in danger of being consumed by are based on a fantasy.
I have found on a few occasions, that when I go to a strip club and hang out and yet STOP getting private dances from some of the girls, the interaction nevertheless continues. They seem to be "comfortable" with me -- maybe they're just forgetting that I've stopped paying them, or maybe they're just assuming that the next time I get drunk I'll start up paying them again? But sometimes they interact with the whole "you deserve my attention" attitude (which is patronizing, but beats the hell out of "you must buy my attention" attitude).
I see the same thing as Book Guy. I have lots of casual friends at my club who hang out with me or give free stuff. It is possible to actually like each other and exercise the game. As for my original post, thanks to advice months ago I moved on to a new one and no longer feel anything for the previous. She's a honey and I get to play the game all over again. I don't think I'll develop the same chemistry since we often don't control that (plus it wasn't intended) but I'm having fun for sure.
When the club is slow and you stop paying strippers because you lost your job or have other real financial problems, it seems like the lovable strippers are still lovable as ever. Only negative is offers of FREE dances----yes, it should go without saying FREE is negative. HINT: No such thing as a free lunch.
Anyway, the above is based on experience many years ago. Of course, if the club is busy, then damn I'd be insisting that the stripper stop wasting her valuable time on me and go make some stinking money. HINT: She is at work and normally work is how one pays pesky bills from food to rent. Cutting a stripper off, imo, would often prove zero about her real feelings.
I'm sure it will come as no surprise to anyone here that I disagree with Chandler on this one. I think it's possible to have 2 separate and parallel relationships with a girl - one professional and one personal. It won't happen very often but I think it happens. Some of these girls are very good at maintaining two totally separate lives, and it's possible to become a part of both.
But I do agree with his point about being consumed by emotions - you shold never allow that to happen. Some emotional involvement adds to the fun, but to allow yourself to be consumed by them is dumb.
Actually, I've found that any emotional involvement (positive or negative) detracts from the fun. I would say this is the case in all life circumstances.
Maybe we mean something different from each other, by the word "emotional."
Book Guy, I once wrote a poem about this which I called Emo and the Rat. It was about letting my emotional side (aka my inner child) out to play but making sure that my rational side remained firmly in control in the background. It's one of the reasons that I stopped drinking much when clubbing, because alcohol numbs that rational side and allows the emotional side too much freedom. Think of it as left brain - right brain. When I'm in a club, I let my right brain dominate because I enjoy it more that way - in fact to me that's always been the whole point of going to a strip club. But I don't turn off the left brain, it's always in the background monitoring what's going on.
I happen to be unusual in that I'm right brain dominate (most straight men are the opposite) but I also have a strong left brain (eg. I'm an engineer) so I'm probably more sensitive to this kind of stuff than most guys are. I'm sure some of you left brain dominate people think this is all nonsense.
FONDL, lord knows where you come by the notion that I believe any kind of relationship is impossible. Obviously, my point was that an attachment is bound to develop, not that one should stop paying strippers. (Sheesh!) If, however, your advice is to deny the part that artifice plays in a ATF's show of affection, then you're right to say that you disagree with me. That's just being willfully naive, IMO. And not very fun, besides.
And I didn't simply say that one should never risk a consuming passion. Life without that possibility would be awfully drab. Just not over something as silly as an ATF. As grown ups, we should know to keep things that are make believe in their place.
Let's deconstruct. You can fuck "A" stripper. Not any stripper, not the stripper of your choice, not a stripper at your local club, or even a stripper in your city. Presented as is, he's probably right, I'm sure there are tons of strippers who will fuck for $200. Except that that $200 might have to cover air fare, gas, cover charge, a hotel room... it gets a little more complicated. Can any guy with $200 get laid? I'd say that is probably a safe bet. If you don't mind street walkers or the lower end call girls I'd guess it is practically certain. "A" stripper becomes more problematic. The stripper you want, chances are slimmer that $200 is all you need.
OK, I am bragging again. I have never spent more than $150 for FS ITC or OTC. I just pick the right ones. " I just want to have fun too" are the ones that I pick.
Some strippers are nymphos it's true. However, I would put my money on an addict needing her fix well before a nympho look to play and get some extra cash. Especially if the "fun" is with a 65 year old fart.
The bigger point is that most strippers are whores no matter how strict your definition of "whore". They will fuck anyone if the price is right. That is kind of the point.
The price might be $150 according to geography, maybe $300. Around here $200 is a cinch for ITC even for some newbie walking in off the street. With experience and regulars, $250 will score you an all nighters.
And AN is correct: "a" does not mean "any". However, nearly every time I've seen a stripper who I just had to fuck, it turned out to be an option. Again, contrary to one's intuition it seems the most attractive ones are more likely to be up for it and at a reasonable price, for whatever reason.
My bet, based on experience, is that along as you show them you won't fall into the trap of getting strung along (their first prefence) you should be able fuck most of them if you want to.
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If not, then I think you are going to keep falling into this "atf trap." Most guys, even the really hardbitten ones, tend to look to for a woman who will be their love interest/emotional support, whatever you want to call it. If you don't have someone like that in your life already, then when you are hanging out with strippers and hookers, you are naturally going to gravitate toward trying to use them to fill that void. It's hard to maintain a pure "fuck buddy" relationship with someone under those circumstances. I think you will naturally start developing feelings for her.
There's nothing inherently wrong with dating strippers and hookers, mind you. They have relationships with guys. Contrary to a lot of the mean stereotypes about them on this site, many of them are perfectly fine. The problem is that you are starting off as a paying customer, and so the lines get pretty blurry and the "relationship" gets tricky. If she just keeps seeing you as a customer, you are being set up for a fall. There are a number of guys on this site who have posted about how confused and upset they were when their ATF suddenly left without a forwarding address (or they found out they were sleeping around, or whatever). What really confused them, of course, is that it was supposed to be a purely fuck buddy relationship, but somewhere along the line they started developing feelings for her.
If you do not have a regular gf/wife whom you love, then I suggest finding that person first, and laying off the strippers/hookers for a while. It's not surprising that given the way you are feeling right now, that you are not finding the sex only relationship unsatisfying. That's because you are really looking for something more. Seeing a stripper/hooker, no matter how hot she is, when you don't have any feelings for her, is not going to fill that void.
On the other hand, if you do have a wife/gf you love, then just spend lots of time with her. Don't worry, you'll get bored soon enough, your eyes will start to wander, and before you know it you'll be back to enjoying sex with semi-strangers.
But my main point is don't use a pay-for-play sex buddy deal as a substitute for a relationship. Unless you are a truly and utterly heartless bastard, you will always end up unhappy.
I'm not going to say I told you so. Not my place. Just enjoy the good memories and live and learn.
YIKES!!! :) Real relationships end in disaster too. In fact, that seems like it is written in granite. Is there pain when a pay-for-play dancer kicks me to the curb, directly or indirectly? Yes, if it was a long term arrangement. I miss Gambling dancer and it hurts, but compared to FREE the pain isn't bad at all. It is like night and day, which is one reason a customer, imo, must demand that the relationship be PAID! No free lunches, but a free drink here and there for good behaviour.
Fantasy, imo, is much better than a real relationship where a woman will rip your heart out, steal all your money, and drag you thru the corrupt courts (the corrupt courts normally assume you were dumb enough to agree to a government licensed marriage, but there is "palimony" to make sure smarties suffer, too).
Just using the stripper as a hole or hand seems kind of boring, imo. I need the powerful emotions of the GFE, but realize it is PAID for; screw the FREE lunch.
Unpaid Relationships seem like playing Russian Roulette with five chambered rounds in a six cylinder revolver. Paid Relationships seem less insane and hence, imo, higher reward. :)
The only reliable way to avoid emotional involvement with strippers is to stop paying them. You'll learn very quickly how artificial their emotional involvement with you has been. The question is whether you would want to do that, or whether you like the artifice and want to continue with it. Presuming you wouldn't want it to end, at least contemplating it should impress upon you that the emotions you're in danger of being consumed by are based on a fantasy.
When the club is slow and you stop paying strippers because you lost your job or have other real financial problems, it seems like the lovable strippers are still lovable as ever. Only negative is offers of FREE dances----yes, it should go without saying FREE is negative. HINT: No such thing as a free lunch.
Anyway, the above is based on experience many years ago. Of course, if the club is busy, then damn I'd be insisting that the stripper stop wasting her valuable time on me and go make some stinking money. HINT: She is at work and normally work is how one pays pesky bills from food to rent. Cutting a stripper off, imo, would often prove zero about her real feelings.
But I do agree with his point about being consumed by emotions - you shold never allow that to happen. Some emotional involvement adds to the fun, but to allow yourself to be consumed by them is dumb.
Maybe we mean something different from each other, by the word "emotional."
I happen to be unusual in that I'm right brain dominate (most straight men are the opposite) but I also have a strong left brain (eg. I'm an engineer) so I'm probably more sensitive to this kind of stuff than most guys are. I'm sure some of you left brain dominate people think this is all nonsense.
And I didn't simply say that one should never risk a consuming passion. Life without that possibility would be awfully drab. Just not over something as silly as an ATF. As grown ups, we should know to keep things that are make believe in their place.
Let's deconstruct. You can fuck "A" stripper. Not any stripper, not the stripper of your choice, not a stripper at your local club, or even a stripper in your city. Presented as is, he's probably right, I'm sure there are tons of strippers who will fuck for $200. Except that that $200 might have to cover air fare, gas, cover charge, a hotel room... it gets a little more complicated. Can any guy with $200 get laid? I'd say that is probably a safe bet. If you don't mind street walkers or the lower end call girls I'd guess it is practically certain. "A" stripper becomes more problematic. The stripper you want, chances are slimmer that $200 is all you need.
The bigger point is that most strippers are whores no matter how strict your definition of "whore". They will fuck anyone if the price is right. That is kind of the point.
The price might be $150 according to geography, maybe $300. Around here $200 is a cinch for ITC even for some newbie walking in off the street. With experience and regulars, $250 will score you an all nighters.
And AN is correct: "a" does not mean "any". However, nearly every time I've seen a stripper who I just had to fuck, it turned out to be an option. Again, contrary to one's intuition it seems the most attractive ones are more likely to be up for it and at a reasonable price, for whatever reason.
My bet, based on experience, is that along as you show them you won't fall into the trap of getting strung along (their first prefence) you should be able fuck most of them if you want to.