Comments by FONDL (page 31)

By her logic they should have some senior citizens dancing too - maybe some customers would prefer that. C'mon Granny, shake that thang.

Please note that this topic isn't about whether you like or dislike the changing roles of women, it's about what impact that has had on strip clubs. And I think it's a very complex topic. Take one example - changes in the work place. When I was young, most women stayed home, and those who did work outside the home were mostly in white-collar jobs - school teachers, nurses, bank tellers, waitresses, secretaries - typically not very high paying fields. The higher-paying blue collar factory and construction jobs were almost exclusively men. And many of those jobs didn't require much education, so there were a lot of well-paid men of relatively low education out there. They were a prime market for strip clubs (ever notice how many strip clubs there are near large factories?) All that has changed. Go to any factory floor today and you'll see lots of women in those relatively well-paid jobs. Or go to any office building and see all the women in professional jobs. And look how many women are now lawyers and doctors. More women graduate from college today than men. Working women have clearly benefitted from the opening of higher paying fields to them, especially those with a good education (those factory jobs of today require a lot more education that in the past because of computers and automation.) But with any major change there are both winners and losers. And who are the losers? Primarily those relatively uneducated men, mostly displaced factory workers, who otherwise would be making a good income but can no longer do so - many such jobs have disappeared because of automation, and of those that remain many are now held by women. But these men aren't the only losers, what about their wives? One of the reasons that there are so many women in the work force today is that many men can no longer support a family, it now often takes 2 incomes - one good income has been replaced by 2 low ones - so many women have been forced to work outside the home. Which in turn has been a factor in our much higher divorce rates. You have to wonder if maybe some of those women have become strippers. So to summarize, the changing role in women in the work place has had at least two effects on strip clubs: it has eliminated large numbers of potential customers and has probably increased the supply of strippers.

I'd be surprised if a lot of clubs made the switch to hiring dancers as employees. That would cause too many problems for clubs with little or no benefit. Can you imagine trying to manage 50 or so strippers? And providing them all with benefits? The paperwork alone would be a nightmare, given the high turnover in this business. In addition the strippers would lose the ability to avoid income taxes and social security, which would take 30-40 percent of their income off the top. Nobody would beneft except the IRS. If a court ever rules that strippers are in fact employees and requires clubs to keep records and deduct taxes, an awful lot of clubs will shut their doors.

Book Guy, I think it's difficult to make generalizations about this point because there are too many variables. For example, among some groups of people perhaps a mainstreaization has occurred. But among other groups perhaps the opposite is true. In addition, talk about all aspects of sexuality was once taboo, now it's wide open thanks to TV and movies. But the fact that people are more willing to talk about something doesn't mean greater acceptance. I think the fact that a lot of clubs have become less seedy is a reflection that everything in our society has become less seedy, that seems to be what consumers expect, and strip clubs are trying to meet that demand. But that doesn't mean that a larger share of the population accepts them.

DandyDan, whether or not the question is overrated depends on your objectives are. Seems to me that if your objective is to get extras without regard to the dancer's looks, intelligence or personality, then dancer quality (eg. looks, intelligence and personality) isn't going to be very important to you. But if you like to sit and watch or sit and have a fun conversation, then looks, intelligence and personality are very important. Book Guy, I agree, average weight of dancers has increased a great deal. Whether you think that's good or bad is a matter of personal choice. I'm in your camp, dancing is an athletic endeavor and the girls doing it should look somewhat athletic.

My biggest complaint about music in strip clubs is that (1) it's way too loud and (2) the DJ talks too much. Come to think of it the DJ talks too much on the radio too. Must be an occupational hazard. I think the presumption is that no one likes to hear music so they feel they have to talk as much as they can.

Book Guy, I live on the cusp between suburbia and rural. When I moved here 30+ years ago it was mostly rural and there were 3 strip clubs nearby. Now it's mostly suburban and there are none. And none of the closings were the result of religious zealots, it was largely the business community - as the area became more upscale strip clubs were no longer welcome. Plus economics clearly played a role, two of the sites became upscale restaurants and the third the site of a hotel. But I agree with you on one point, the Internet has had a dramatic impact on strip clubs. But I think it has largely been negative because it's made the competition (escorts, erotic massage) much more readily available. If you want to argue that those alternates have become more mainstream-ized, I might agree with you. I think the only customer group that is increasing in number is old farts - retired men like me. And that growth will probably increase dramatically as the huge group of baby boomers begin to retire. But that isn't particualrly good news for strippers - most of the retireees I see in strip clubs don't seem to have a lot of money (the rich ones are all in Florida playing golf) and don't spend much, they just sit and watch and drink, which is a cheap form of entertainment. Large numbers of Old Farts in clubs will probably chase away younger guys. I'm interested to see if Shadowcat and Bones' spending habits change when they retire. Assuming they ever do. To me the most interesting subject is what impact, if any, has the changing roles of women in society had on strip clubs? I can think of dozens of ways, some positive, some negative. Maybe I'll start a new topic.

Clubber, maybe DandyDan drinks a lot more at clubs then we do. Never forget, beauty is in the eye of the beerholder. Jablake, whenever I've been to Brad's Brass, I'd say that about a third of the girls there met my criteria. But maybe that's why I think Brad's is the best club in the country. Bones, you're welcome, for both the "thank you" and you're sincere offer to help. I'd tell you where my ATF is but you're WAY too horny for her. But if you're ever in the Tampa area and want to get the world's best NONSEXUAL massage, let me know.

"Her milk started flowing like crazy and I wasn't sure why." I'd guess she recently had a baby and hadn't fed if in awhile. Are there any other possibilities?

Wow! I'm gone for 2 days and there's a new topic with 61 posts! That must be some kind of record. And after reading it all (well most of it anyway) I find 2 thinks of primary interest: (1) it's always fun to read the exchanges between AbbieNormal and Jablake, you two are hilarious (do you rehearse this stuff?); and (2) MIDancer has been dancing for 5 years and you've just now encountered your first extreme rudeness? I must be living in the wrong part of the country, I see it everyday without ever setting foot in a strip club, all I have to do is get on the highway. Anyway I agree that some people are just total jerks, or he may have been having a really bad day, or that some guys go to strip clubs cause they get off insulting dancers (probably because they hate women and I'm sure the feeling is mutual) and they think they can get away with it in a strip club. MIDancer, thanks for livening up the board. Again.

I would guess that a large-scale recession would benefit some strip clubs. Lots of guys collecting unemployment with nothing to do all day. But they wouldn't go to expensive places and they wouldn't spend a lot. Still some girls could benefit. Keep in mind, though, that most of our economy is pretty recession-proof. Most industries aren't very cyclical. It would take some huge external event (like 9/11 or worse) to have a significant and lasting effect on laarge numbers of people. My guess is that the sex industry isn't very cyclical.

Book Guy, you've made that argument before about the "mainstreamization" of strip clubs, and I don't see it. Maybe there's greater acceptance among young people, but IMO there's always been acceptance among young people. The one difference is that some young women are curious enough to visit clubs now and then, you rarely saw that years ago. But you also see more women on the golf course or sitting in bars today. So that's really the "mainstreamization" of women not strip clubs. On the other hand, corporate America has become a lot less accepting. My early visits to strip clubs were almost always business related. In my early working years it was very common for business people to take customers or visitors to strip clubs. You almost never see that today, and in many companies you'd get fired for doing that. Seems to me that corporate America, and maybe older people in general, are a lot less tolerant today, not more. And to answeer my earlier question, if I had a zillion dollars I probably wouldn't visit strip clubs at all, I'd be hiring massage therapists and other girls to entertain me privately. And I think that's one of the problems that strip clubs are having, guys with money are spending more of it on escorts and massage girls and less of it in strip clubs. The number of massage parlors seems to be increasing much more rapidly than the number of strip clubs, and escort advertisements are increasingly common. Strip clubs appear to be getting a declining share of the sex dollar.

Professor, you may not be aware of it (almost everyone else here is) but I'm still close friends with my ATF - we talk almost every day on the phone and we visit each other when we can. So it's not like I lost her, she just stopped dancing. She's now a massage therapist and gives me massages whenever we can. I don't really have much interest in finding another favorite. And I don't think my standards are that high - cute, young, nice smile, fit, fairly intelligent, friendly positive attitude, not too tall - seems to me that should be fairly easy to find.

Professor, there's no question that my standards rose after I got to know my ATF. After she quit dancing I kept looking for someone else like her and never found one. So after 6 years of disappointment I stopped looking. But aside from not finding another dancer like her, I also noticed that there weren't as many girls who appealed to me physically, and I didn't use to have that problem. Now that I've taken a long breather I may find that I enjoy clubs more. If not I'll stick to massages. Casualguy, I've always thought that southern clubs had more attractive dancers. They tend to be more polite too, but then so does everyone else. That's pretty true of the Midwest too. Hope I don't offend anyone but it's always been my opinion that the further you get from from the Northeast (where I've always lived) the more civil people are. It's very noticable when you travel a lot. It's also very noticable with strippers, give me a sweet southern girl any day.

At Pleasure Dome, the girls all circulate constantly. But you aren't pestered very often because they spend awhile with each customer and are often successful at selling private dances (it's an LD factory and that's why everyone is there.) The only problem I've ever had with it is spotting a girl who I want, then having to wait a long time before she makes it around to where I am. The girls always seem to start at the same end of the room and those stools fill quickly. BTW, Casualguy, I don't think I've ever been in a club where some of the girls eschewed the stage dance, anywhere I've ever been they were always required to take their turn. Plus it's usually pretty profitable.

No. 7: As soon as Shadowcat finishes getting his HJ I think I'll get one from her too.

BookGuy, I guess it depends on how far back you want to go. But it seems to me that, except maybe for a few select places in a couple of big cities, the fancy upscale clubs are a relatively new phenomenon. I'm old enough to remember when all strip clubs were low-class dives. In fact that was a big part of their appeal. I wonder what was the first true gentlemen's club as we now know them. Jablake, you raise an interesting point that I never really thought about. I don't much care for GC's either, but if I had a gazillion bucks would I feel differently? I'm not sure I can answer that. But I think I'd still find all the djs, bouncers, etc. pretty annoying. Plus I'm a small-town boy at heart and all the GCs seem to be in inner cities. I don't generally do inner cities.

David120, my ATF was very much a fun girl and she made a bundle, it really worked for her. She'd often sit and joke around with guys for a long time (including me.) I once asked her why she didn't try to maximize her income. She replied, "What makes you think I'm not?" She was getting huge tips to sit with guys - she considered $300 an off night, and this was in a tiny hole-in-the-wall kinda place.

AN, I was charged for delivery for the storage shed but not very much. I also bought it from a family business and I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that the driver was part of the family. And I further assumed, again perhaps incorrectly, that someone who is driving a large truck like that is paid pretty well. The primary reason I didn't tip them was there were two guys, the driver who did all the work plus a helper who did next to nothing. I can't very well tip one but not the other, can I? If there had only been the one guy I probably would have tipped him. Would you still have tipped them even though I was charged for delivery, and if so how much? I had one $10 and several $20 bills in my wallet but to give them each a $20 seemed excessive to me. One other consideration that puzzles me - does it make any difference if the person owns the business? For some reason I feel uncomfortable tipping a guy who owns the business. For example, I go to a barber shop where the only guy there (the rest of the staff are women) owns the business. I always tip whoever cuts my hair (I'm never sure what it costs because they have senior discounts some days but not others so I usually just give them a $20 bill and tell them to keep the change, which is either $3 or $5) but tipping the owner makes me somewhat uncomfortable. My ATF owns her business but it's in a baauty salon and most of her customers probably assume she's hired help. As far a strippers go, if I ask a girl to join me and then buy some dances, I don't usually tip unless she's a girl I want to see again. If I don't buy dances I will tip her for her time. If she just joins me without my asking, I'll rarely tip.

I find it interesting that there's a direct correlation between health and wealth. Some of it is probably due to better medical care for the wealthy. But I think most of it is due to 2 other factors: (1) education - the wealthy have a better understanding of what it takes to be healthy, and (2) time horizon - the wealthy are more willing to do things whose benefit is long term (which is partly how they got to be wealthy in the first place) while poorer people are more interested in instant gratification. Like eating Big Macs and fries. But to return to the original topic, the past 20 years have been the strongest economic expansion period in our history. The unemployment rate is at an all-time low, in fact it is lower than what economists used to consider to be full employment. True not everyone has benefitted equally - the expansion has largely occurred because of new technology and most of the good jobs created have required a higher level of education. So the income gap between educated and uneducated workers has widened. Which gives the impression that our poverty problem is getting worse, when in fact there are far more highly educated workers and far fewer uneducated ones (which is why illegal immigrants have no trouble getting jobs, but that's another issue.) IMO the relatively uneducated well paid workers have historically have been the the largest customer group for strip clubs, but their numbers are declining. In spite of the record economic growth, I can't ever remember a time during the past 20 years when strippers weren't complaining about the economy. I think the complaints result from two things: (1) the industry is declining (in relative terms); and (2) in most clubs a few girls make most of the money while the rest don't do very well. I think that's always been true although it may be becoming truer as the industry hires more and more marginal dancers.

I think the smart dancer strategy in most clubs these days is to cultivate and keep as many regulars as they can. It's the steadiest income and may be the easiest work. But it may require some OTC activity, which is why a lot of girls resist this approach. I don't know if you consider that to be low-hanging fruit or not. I think the real issue is the dancer who is average or below in looks and personality. My guess is that she's having a difficult time surviving in most clubs. But maybe she always did. I've never gotten to know one of them well enough to find out.

I agree that you should tip people like the pizza delivery person and the waitress - they make very little in salary. I also agree that you don't tip the Verizon guy who installs your fiber optic cable and phones and wireless computer setup (I actually offered him a tip because he did such a great job and was here all day but he said he wasn't allowed ot take it) or the plumber or electrician who fixes something for me or the furnace repair man who cleans my furnace - they all get paid fairly well for doing those jobs. Where I have a problem is the people in between - eg. the truck driver and his helper who recently delivered my storage shed and set it up, or the guy who sweeps my chimney or the guys who empty the gutters on my house or the guy who delivers your new matress. Some of them seem to expect a tip and others don't. I once asked my ATF this question because her step-father has his own business as a carpet installer and she said that about half his customers tip him. She thinks you should tip everyone (she spent years as a waitress) who does a service for you - she tipped the delivery people who brought her noew sofa. She also runs her own massage business and most of her clients tip her even though they're paying a lot for a massage.

Chandler, I think the current mix is fine too (at least it was 2 years ago when I could read them.) I was responding to Bones' comment that reviews should focus on mileage. I disagree, when I read reviews I'd like to know more than that.

I actually wish to retract one of my statements that led to Chandler's irrational rant - I meant to say techno instead of hip-hop and realized it as soon as I hit the submit button, unfortunately there's no edit feature here so that kind of stuff happens. And for the record, I don't even know what hip-hop is. Now that I've cleared that up, Chandler, for the record will you please list your musical qualifications for us. Here are mine - I've been a professional musician for most of my life, I play about 6 different instruments including keyboards and woodwinds, played in a variety of rock and jazz bands for many years, was a church organist for over 20 years, and also sang professionally (and still do as a volunteer) so I think I'm fairly well qualified to judge who is or isn't a skilled vocalist. What's your musical expertise?

I agree with Chandler on one point - that the middle class is shrinking. But if you look at the data instead of listening to the biased rhetoric of those who try to spread discontent, you'll discover that the reason the middle class is shrinking is that large numbers of people previously considered to be middle class have become wealthy. That's the really important trend in our society and it's been going on for decades. Other than that one point, I agree with everything that AN said. As usual he has his facts right. If you look at total income including government benefits, instead of just looking at earned income as the news media does in their efforts to create bad news, most of the poor in this country are those who are poor temporarily while they attend college or other school. Or they're retired like me. I have no earned income and could be classified as poor if that's the measure you use. But in reality I'm much closer to being rich than poor. The real problem that strip clubs have is that they've become somewhat of an anachronism - in a society where sex is everywhere they've pretty much gone out of style. Fifty years ago they were just about the only place where horny guys could see naked women. Now all you have to do is turn on the TV or your computer or go to a movie or a massage parlor or call an escort or go to a local bar and pick someone up. So who needs strip clubs? The number of people to whom strip clubs appeal is shrinking because of all this increased competition and because strip clubs have become overpriced in comparison. It has little to do with the status of the overall economy. I also think that, like many other sectors of the entertainment industry, stripping has become much more of a star system - the best are taking an increasing share of the total pot so incomes for everyone else are declining in relative terms. I'll bet that in almost every strip club where girls are complaining that there's no money anymore, that there's a few stars who are making a bundle. As prices have risen guys have become pickier.