Mind Your F***ing Manners

Hi MIDancer,

It could be anthing from a bad day to that is how he gets off. Also, I've noticed some customers that just don't like dancers for all manner of reasons including it should be "free" to dancers are frauds because they pretend to like you. Never underestimate the stupidity of a customer!

Or, it could be just cultural. If you met me when I was young, then I'd probably be less than nice regardless of the circumstances without even understanding there was a problem. And, I wouldn't expect anything from you and would in fact prefer your actual feelings whatever they maybe. I've changed a lot. Even so some people IRL and elsewhere consider me crazy--they might be correct or it might be they're slow or it could be anything . . .

I'm sure you know it is really the customer's problem and you just need to rise above it! Best wishes. :)

MIDancer - It sounds as if this "GENT?" (questionable indeed), probably had spent quite a bit of money on that one particular dancer, and wasn't all that 'satisfied for the money'.

I can only 'imagine' the number of "rude" customers any dancer has to put up with in a months time. We here at TUSCL occassionally make fun of what strippers (dancers) say to us as customers, but rarely ever give the dancers an opportunity to hear their side of the story.

Evidently, this kind of rudeness or confrontation with customers comes with the SC business and is a downside for sure.

Myself, and a lot of TUSCLers know me, I could never be RUDE to any dancer, even if I were pestered to death. It's just not in my nature.

Advice from Uncle Bones: Just keep on 'dancing', turn the other cheek, and try your best to forget the negatives. And, thanks for passing on the information about this dude to the other dancers. They have every right to share in information.

Thanks for the responses.

Bones, I often "turn the other cheek," but I can't help but think, "what the HELL is wrong with this person?" I try my best to be polite and professional, and I expect the same in return. Maybe I'm expecting too much. I just don't understand the guys who come in and, by means of their own poor attitude and behavior, create a lousy time for themselves. Why not just stay home?

As far as not being satisfied with the money spent... If he was SO unsatisfied, WHY did he CONTINUE to spend it? He made it sound as though he had dropped hundreds on this girl. Dumb move, if you don't like the dances that a paricular dancer provides. Perhaps he was expecting more, but our club is fairly low-contact (it's a pastie, one-foot-on-the-floor, get fined if you let a guy touch your breasts kind of place); you'd think he'd realize that after getting a series of "unsatisfying" dances, or simply looking around to see the type of dances being given.

MIDancer

Sounds to me if he gets off talking to girls in a club like that. Given the response you got, I would have to assume that if he were in a regular club asking a girl for to dance with him, he might have gotten a similar response from her. I feel this is his way of turning the tables on women. Unfortunately, there are some people who have little success finding people of the opposite sex for meaningful relationships, and when in a situation where they wield the power, they are compelled to act that way.

A funny story which you might like is as follows.....Many years ago, I was at a club and politely asked a girl if she would like to dance. They were fast songs, and nothing slow so I could never be accused of groping her or anything like that. By the way, due to my age this was long before the "dirty dancing" era, and it was at a "disco" during my grad school years. By the way I am NOT considered totally unfortunate either and am nothing but polite. At any rate after I asked her do dance, her reply was "Hell no, not with you." No thank you would have be fine, and I would have left on my way. Well being quick on the comeback, my response to her was, "I guess that rules out the possibility of a blowjob in the parking lot later!"

Cover Charge $10 Drinks $50 Seeing the look on her face PRICELESS

lotsoffun,

I'd steal that line if it wouldn't get me in trouble if I happened to say it to an undercover police officer. :)

MIDancer, as always, I am going to speak my mind here. I am sure you are an awesome dancer, but you need to get the hell out of the biz ASAP. Too bad I would never be able to buy LD from you :(

Hi MIDancer,

You may have already read the book being that you're an avid reader. If not, then I'd highly recommend "How to Win Friends and Influence People," by Dale Carnegie. Most likely I haven't read as many books as you, but out of the hundreds that I've read that was one of the best. And, generally that isn't the type of book that I would care for.

Also, I have to say every once in a blue I would see a dancer who not only took extreme verbal abuse but did it like a duck in water. Sometimes even turning a profit from the abusive customer or someone that liked her style. The old saying the best way to get rid of enemy is to make a friend out 'em. I don't have that personality. :)

I remember this girl in school. Holly. What an ugly looking girl. Fat and tall and bad skin. :( She impressed me like you can't believe. A very popular girl, among boys and girls, who somehow could remain positive in front of the most hateful comments. And, it wasn't just skin deep or acting. I wouldn't believe how she stood tall except that I saw it first hand. Being trained to be in a bad mood, I sure wasn't a fan. Not that I sought her out or anything. But, if she asked how I was doing then I was liable to tell to get lost or drop dead or just ignore her. I don't think I ever treated her right. It was just the culture. She was always very upbeat with me and everyone. As I said I never sought her out, but then again I don't think I was ever nice to her. I wanted her GONE! I didn't really care where as long as it was away from me. Remember she impressed the hell out of me and I still didn't treat her right . . .

Professor,

I'm pretty sure that I'm grandfathered in at this point (I've been dancing for nearly five years at this point). I understand perfectly well the pitfalls of the profession, although I still may not understand why those pitfalls exist. I assure you, upon completion of my PhD, I will be leaving the business.

MiDancer, just wanted to make sure you understand that I say the above as a compliment and as a sign of my admiration of your educational accomplishments and commitment to learn and grow.

In the culture, manners really weren't appreciated. If anything it was looked down upon along with those who believed in "manners." I think the reason being that the "manners" were seen as deception. If you not feeling well, then don't pretend. If you want someone of you face, then let them know! Manners were generally seen as disgusting unless you were talking table manners or those that really didn't deal with feelings. The positive was you didn't have to wonder where you stood. :)

jablake: I've heard of the book, although I have yet to read it. I'll be sure to put it on my "reading list."

Professor: No need for concern; I took it as a compliment. I should be starting my M.A. in the fall of 2008, so I'm on my way...

MIDancer

Feel free to use it, although I don't think I can come up with the appropriate scenario for you to use it in!!!!!!!

MIDaner - Just think of what their wives (if married) are going through with their kind of attitude. Don't take those JERKS personal MI please. There are fewer of them than us nice guys, thank God.

Professor - Mega Dittos

As long as I have the nerve to be recommending books to an avid reader, then I'd say YES to any of Margaret Mead's books. I guess they deal with anthropology or sociology. I'm not sure and I don't even remember the titles. I just enjoyed her writing style and her observations and her thoughts. And, it truly helped me recognize that what one group sees as normal/good another group will see as abnormal/bad. OK, I'll shut up now! :)

lotsoffun:

Me: "Would you like a dance?" Customer: "Hell no." Me: "Well, I guess that eliminates the possibility of that free blow job I was going to give you in the parking lot after my shift."

jablake: Margaret Mead the anthropologist? I really enjoyed the following by her: Coming of Age in Samoa and Culture and Commitment. I've read a couple others by her, but they didn't strike me as much as the aforementioned.

MIDancer

Touche.....excellent. You know I used to be from Michigan, but am now in Las Vegas....too bad, I like girls with your sense of humor!

MIDancer

Touche.....excellent. You know I used to be from Michigan, but am now in Las Vegas....too bad, I like girls with your sense of humor!

Hi MIDancer,

Yes, that is her. :) I might have read that one about Samoa. It has just been so many years. She just impressed me, big time!

The one that I really enjoyed was where she examined three different cultures living on one island. One culture was based on love and those people just didn't believe in punishment. Everybody was your brother, no matter how screwed up. The real problem they had was dealing with true deviants--not the kind that are invented in the U.S. Deviants that no matter how much love and kindness they are shown still want to hurt other people in the tribe.

Another culture was based on religious mumbo jumbo and pretty much lived in fear of this god or that god or their neighbors or spirits.

The final culture was based on extreme violence. Children were trained to hate at a very young age. Parents really didn't care for their children. A high premium was placed on young females. But, the high premium didn't translate into good treatment. In fact, they might have had it worst of all.

It has been a long time, but I think I would have rated the cultures in order of preference 1) lovey dovey, 2) extreme hate, and 3) mumbo jumbo religion. :)

jablake: I think you're speaking of her book, Sex and Temperament in Three Primitive Societies.

I am surprised that nobody has mentioned it but alcohol some times effects a persons manners. I hate to admit it but my son is one of the worst. When he drinks, he gets so totally obnoxious that I can't even stand him. His sister either. He has been kicked out of one strip club for this reason. You have to expect this in any place that servers alcohol.

Hi MIDancer,

Yes, that is the one. :) I always had a reservation that her cultural biases might have changed what she was seeing, but that would be the case no matter who was writing. I also enjoyed I think it was the Pat Pong Sisters, but the quality wasn't the same level and my bias toward the trade e.g. strip clubs may definitely have given me more interest in that book. Also, I think it was titled the "Mean Gene" was in my mind about culture--probably most people wouldn't see it that way.

Anyway, maybe I just liked books about culture because my culture was under heavy attack by government. I was fortunate in that some of my people were part of the system so the "rules" as far as the criminal justice system were ignored or broken in my favor where someone else may have been paying bigtime.

Excellent point shadowcat! :)

jablake: I once took a Comparative Literature course on the problematic nature of translation. That is, when a work is translated, something is always lost. I think the same theory can be applied to cultural anthropology: when one examines a culture, it can only be through a distorted lens.

Hi MIDancer,

Yes, distorted and not only by culture, imo. I believe there is also physical distortion due to individual genetics. The old debate is has the culture determined what you find sexy or is it the way you see and sense? My 2 cent opinion is the majority of people learn what is attractive. So in one African tribe the women try and get extremely long necks. Perhaps they possess a gene that says long necks are attractive. I think more likely you could take many members from the tribe at birth and train them to find something else attractive. Who knows perhaps despite the training some would still be focused on the long necks as a sex symbol.

My extremely limited use of marijuana showed me how limited and poor my eyesight was. I had the feeling that some other groups saw colors more brightly just by the way the acted toward them. Of course, I wasn't sure. It could have just been their cultural training. With the marijuana WOW!!! everything that had been dull suddenly had life. The world wasn't nearly as dark and grim as I had always seen it. Perhaps this vision was normal for happy cultures or people. I think my dark and grim vision had survival value . . . and apparently the reverse was true. :)

Unfortunately, I think the normal thinking is that if peanuts are healthy, then they are healthy for everyone. Individual genetics being completely ignored. Same with what is sexy. If most learn beauty then everyone learns beauty . . .

I hope that made some sense. :)

Customer rude to stripper. Film at 11.

Honestly the only remarkable thing here is that she notes how infrequently it happens.

Bobbyl:

There is unintentional rudeness, and intentional rudeness. It's the latter that bothers me. The former (which is more the result of pure ignorance) can usually be corrected simply by telling the offender that he/she is being rude.

There are plently of rude customers, but I'd say most are not intentionally so.

And like I said, I do my best to be polite and professional. I can't say the same for most of the girls that I have worked with. So, yes, customer rudeness is a fairly infrequent occurance for me.

As far as problems of translation, my grandmother on the "good" side of the family said that she wouldn't be a Christian if the English translation was correct because in her opinion it changed it from a book of love to a book of hate. I think she said she learned it in Aramaic or something like that. She was fluent in seven languages--with her fomal education coming to an abrupt halt at around age 13. Meanwhile, I had difficulty just with English. :)

Her level of education put me to shame in pretty much every area and yet her years of schooling were very few.

Your grandmother could've also read it in Greek, Latin or Hebrew. I doubt Aramaic, as the language has been dead for some time now.

On a side note, I have many problems with the canonized Bible. Its translation over time is but one reason that I am not a Christian.

True. I thought she said Ara something, however. Or, that could be just a misremembering. Greek or Latin would make sense. She didn't know Hebrew.

MIDancer, Sorry to be a latecomer to this thread but it seems to me that the guy is just an as!&^le. I in this field you need to just let them go and knwo that you are what you want to be and can't possibly please everyone!

Role play? Probably a dumb idea, but some people including dancers love doing role play. Depending on the customer you might be able to create an entire little fantasy scenario around his character or words.

Of course, some dancers gave the thumbs down aggressively and others seemed to love it. :) I'm trying to think of that actress-- She had a half hour show and had like 5 mini stories in the half hour where she played different roles. Might have been Sarah? Anyway, the way she could change was amazing and it was supposedly ad lib--maybe.

OK, I admit I've never read Margret Meade. In grad school I did have a roomate who was a physical anthropologist (now a dead discipline, figure out why). He rolled his eyes when I mentioned Margret Meade. Just from jablake's description above, if accurate, I can now get an idea why. She finds on one island, three distinct cultures, one based on love, one on hate, and one on religion. What are the chances? Now unless this was obviously allegorical, I'm going to have to call bullshit right there unless she named the island, the tribes, and someone else corroborated her research. That, as described, just doesn't pass the smell test.

MIDancer, as I've said before, most customers deserve courtesy and return the same, some don't. It really isn't worth worying about. Don't mistake other people's dysfunctions and problems for yours.

Margaret Mead certainly had her biases. But more importantly, she was a forerunner in the field of cultural anthropology (she first started publishing in the mid-1930s). She's easily one of the most widely-read and well-known. Having studied English at the collegiate level, I can't help but roll my eyes when someone mentions Shakespeare, so I understand your ex-roommate's frustration.

MIDancer, Astrologers were the forerunners to astronomers and astrophysicysts, Alchemists were the forerunners to chemists. I don't begrudge her her biases or observations, I only wory that they may be considered science when, admittedly at first blush, they read like a bad version of a platonic allegory. As for Shakespeare, yeah he ripped off everyone from the Greeks to the Phoenicians, but come on, the dude could write. I love Mailer, Wolfe, Capote and all the rest, but do they really compare to Shakespeare?

" I'm going to have to call bullshit right there unless she named the island, the tribes, and someone else corroborated her research. That, as described, just doesn't pass the smell test."

Well, I'm about 95% sure there is at least 2 out of 3. It would be interesting to know if someone corroborated her research.

"First published in 1935, Sex & Temperament is a fascinating and brilliant anthropological study of the intimate lives of three New Guinea tribes from infancy to adulthood. Focusing on the gentle, mountain-dwelling Arapesh, the fierce, cannibalistic Mundugumor, and the graceful headhunters of Tchambuli -- Mead advances the theory that many so-called masculine and feminine characteristics are not based on fundamental sex differences but reflect the cultural conditioning of different societies. This edition, prepared for the centennial of Mead's birth, features introductions by Helen Fisher and Mead's daughter, Mary Catherine Bateson."

amazon.com

Well, the description from Amazon is different than my recollection. The beach people as I recall were based on love. I think the middle people were cannibals. And, the mountain people religious. I would trust the description from Amazon over mine! :) But, I would have sworn the beach people were lovey dovey. Also, this doesn't mean someone saw the same tribes in the same way.

OK, that satisfies the absolute minimum requirements for scientific OBSERVATION. It is specific enough to be checked. In science however, even an observation (experiment) is not considered legitimate unless confirmed by a disinterested third party. But seriously, this doesn't set off anyone elses bullshit alarm? Three distinct cultures that just happen to all be close enough to be studied by one woman in the early 20th century, right around the time of the great philosophical debates about socialism, militarism, religion, and the social utility of them all. Athens? Sparta? Christianity (dogma) versus universal brotherhood (love/socialism). Love, Hate, Superstiton? Come on, just to have three perfect examples of the big three questions, right at hand, ready to study, that doesn't raise the skeptic in anyone else?

In my experiences with aholes and jerks, it's best just to stay out of their way. You could come up with a snappy retort or something to get even in your own mind but being a true ahole, they may try to get back at you. For instance in the case above, the ahole or jerk (maybe he just had a bad day and isn't that bad) could start rumors or inform the police that dancer x was giving BJ's in the parking lot and would have given him one if he hadn't turned her down for a dance first. I believe being a jerk or ahole that life will return to them what they give out to everyone. Their friends may not really be friends unless they are paying them or a similiar company of jerks. Unfortunately the corporate world has a number of jerks or a**holes. If they are in a position of power, they may enjoy putting other people down. I've seen this in one manager on one job I had. It was best to stay out of his way. He seemed to enjoy bringing others to tears. One supervisor made a comment saying that if that guy was on fire, he wouldn't even pee on him to put it out. Someone told me if I could survive at work with him around, I could survive about anything at work. I just wanted to let you know strip clubs aren't the only places with jerks. Some of these guys are like that all the time.

One dancer who has confided in me said she doesn't think of me as a customer and told me I was one of the nice guys in the strip clubs. There are a lot of jerks and mean people everywhere. If I heard "hell no", I wouldn't even think he was being mean spirited. Just another form of no thanks.

Lol, I was laughing with a dancer who was squirting breast milk in my face. I was holding my hand up to deflect the milk. For some reason her milk just started coming out. It didn't help when she tried to squirt me. I was getting ready to leave the club anyway and planning on washing my clothes so I wasn't upset in the least. Some guys probably would have been ticked off. I was in a pretty good mood. A few times I may not be if another dancer got me upset. I have to say that's a first for me, dodging breast milk during a lap dance. She had a baby 5 or 6 months ago. I guess I was an easy target last night since I wasn't alone for more than a few minutes.

It would have, but I've seen the video on the Yanomamo (sp?). Yes, it could have been faked. But, it sure described them the way my girlfriend from that part of the world described them. She was 100% biased, btw. Hated those people with a passion.

Also, there was the doc on Japanese religious penis faithful. That seemed wacked out. Then there are the video documentaries on different African tribes. Those seem wierd. The people (some) of India and their cow loving ways among unusual beliefs . . .

Could 100% fake. And, if so of course I'd rather find that out! :)

The Wall Street Journal had a really unbelieveable story on the IRA or some fighting faction over there. The fighters allegedly waited to be knee capped! That seemed 100% fake. Wait to have someone blow out a knee cap or knee caps! So I'm going to show 2 PM Monday and you be at Joe's so I can cripple you for life. And, then you show?

OTOH, I would think/hope that their rep would be worth more than printing such an absurd story if it was phoney. Also, it wasn't like a propaganda piece as I recall. There didn't seem to be an agenda.

Jablake, you need to make a coherant argument, address specific points, not just obscure hints of some video or an unidentified witness. Then you say; "Also, there was the doc on Japanese religious penis faithful. That seemed wacked out. Then there are the video documentaries on different African tribes. Those seem wierd. The people (some) of India and their cow loving ways among unusual beliefs . . . "

So there are Japanese "religious penis faithful", and there are African tribes, and apparently some videos of them, and some people in India who love cows.

How on earth am I to comprehend what you are talking about? Is there a point? An argument? An opinion? Being informed that there are "Japanese religious penis faithful. That seemed wacked out. Then there are the video documentaries on different African tribes. Those seem wierd. The people (some) of India and their cow loving ways among unusual beliefs . . . " does not really add anything to my understanding of exactly what it is you are arguing.

The point seems obvious.

You yapped about a "bullshit alarm" going off. I explained that there were other stories and docs that seem just as wild. Hence, why would the good old bs alarm go off?

Because it seems wacky? Because it fills an agenda? It sounded like you thought it was too weird and thus, the bs alarm needed to sound. I just sort of shrug my shoulders at that. Really. There are a lot of strange stories. Might be true or might not be.

BTW, glad you raised the issue of truthfulness. Too often if it is in writing or on video it is seen as true.

My own experience living in Miami is that different cultures can have very different values.

At least didn't say, "Maybe later." That's one thing to be said about rude people - you know where they stand.

jablake, no, it is not obvious, you alluded to other things, apparently "religious penis faithful" in Japan, African tribes on video, and some Indians who like cows, with no other context. Are there claims about the "religious penis faithful" that I should know about? Are these claims wild? Are they supported or dubunked by some video? Are they considered scientific fact, or even plausible?

No, the point is not obvious. It is about as far from obvious as is rhetorically possible. Learn to write or quit trying to pretend you are engaging in some sort of discussion as opposed to an incoherant rant. Sorry to be so harsh, you seem to try to be polite, but you are utterly incomprehensible most of the time, and while I don't wish to be rude or dismissive, I can not reply seriusly to such an incoherant insubstantial mess.

Maybe later. This may need a new thread, but Chandler raises a great point. Maybe Later is a pretty mushy reply. I have said, maybe later, but not in those words, and only when I truely wanted a dance from the dancer, just not right away. Is that rude? It has worked both ways for me. Most of the time the dancer knows to circulate back at some point and I'll probably be ready for a dance. On occasion the timing has been really bad. One or two times I've explained this and that I really did want her to come back, but that the timing was just off, but really, please check back again (only one did, she got $100 for 5), but most don't come back. Others, well a few I've bought the dance anyway, since I did ask them to come back, and it was very busy. Most of those times I enjoyed it, a few I didn't. The other cases were when I explained, yes I did say check back, but now is not a great time, and was met with attitude or hostility. Thoughts?

Yes, I expected you to be aware of other wild stories involving different cultures. The penis story played a few times on CNN. But, even if you didn't see that video, you should have been more than aware of other weird stories. When you see these stories does that mean they're true?

Are you telling me that you never see or read weird stories about different cultures?

Mead's story didn't seem too strange compared to all the other weird stories about different cultures. And, it isn't like these stories are hidden. They're on the television. They're in books. They're in newspapers. They're in magazines. Now, these stories could be fakes for all manner of reasons. Political, financial, artistic, religious, etc. Do you expect me to remember titles, dates, and times? Not likely. I didn't even remember the title of Mead's book.

"Mead's story didn't seem too strange compared to all the other weird stories about different cultures."

No, actually it does seem very strange. A nearly amateur touring the south pacific just happens upon three supremely distinct cultures that just happen to mirror the great debates of the time? But I suppose I should go back to basics. This amateur is able to determine, without the benefit of speaking the language or knowing the history, that one is a society based on love, one on hate, and one on superstition. Those are conclusions, not observations, and the mere fact that she reported conclusions raises the bullshit alarm. To my knowledge Meade spent no more that a year or so in her research. Amazingly perceptive.

And further, I don't consider video clips on CNN to describe a culture, and I really don't know what other weirdness you are talking about, and further the fact that some news organizations get things wrong, or report strange stuff does not make Meade's arguments more plausible.

AbbieN, Why do you bother beating your head against the brick wall? jablake does not get it. He sadly never will.

I think parodyman has an excellent point. :) It is the old beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Just happens upon? I thought she was looking for different cultures. Even just happens upon isn't really just happens upon when you consider all the other people in world who travel and bring back interesting stories. Amateur? I guess amateurs don't make discoveries or inventions, but I didn't realize that she was an amateur not that, that would have made a difference as long as she was trying to report facts and then draw conclusions. It was been a long time, but I don't think that I necessarily agreed with her conculsions. It was the "facts" that were interesting and the question that I had was how much is her culture interferring? Also, for whatever reason her writing style was very appealing to me. And, I don't need to agree with writer to find their style of writing appealing.

At the flea market (the one with the old man with 2 underage babes) there was an old man missing his lower jaw. Somehow he could speak. A nasty fellow, which wasn't a problem. The "treasures" he claimed to have obtained first hand were just wonderful. Made my eyes just light up. His short stories told in a go to hell attitude were of very strange people and customs. Was he telling the truth? I think so because his culture was one of in your face nastiness (truth telling), but of course he could just be a skilled con man.

Her conclusions are supposedly based on facts. If she was correctly reporting the facts, then one is free to draw their own conclusions. For example, a man is using all manner of hateful racist slurs in a bar. I report what I heard him say as correctly as possible. Is the man a racist? Some people would automatically think: uh duh! For them it would be black and white. Hateful racist slurs = racist.

Maybe the man was a federal agent, a writer trying to do a story, a joker making fun of racists, etc. Most people can't think past the very obvious. A few additional facts can change everything. Perhaps they were filming an action movie at the bar! Etc. Etc. Etc.

Anyway, unintentionally I think parodyman really contributed some substance as he often does. It is a question of establishing a base line. If you agreed with the idea that that one man's criminal (terrorist) is another man's criminal (terrorist), then the base line is set very low and there isn't much chance of a positive discussion. BTW, if you feel that way wonderful, but I consider it to be brain dead. That doesn't mean it is brain dead. Just that I consider it to be brain dead.

"I don't consider video clips on CNN to describe a culture"

Sorry, but that sort of evokes an uh duh response from me. The video clips can show very strange behaviour/culture. That is the point. I see a place with conservatively dressed people bowing and praying to big penises and little penises--that of course doesn't describe their culture. Do they love penises? It seemed like it. Perhaps they were afraid of penises. Whatever it was different! Next, they might be chopping off penises or giving bjs. :) The video clips assuming they weren't fakes were impressive for showing how strange and different people with different cultures can behave.

Parodyman---I would appreciate your insight. I like your style even if you not treating like a bosom buddy. Or maybe you are! :)

Abbie Normal: I actually prefer Chaucer and Dante. And I think both could give Shakespeare a run for his money.

Getting a little more back to the subject. I have even later in life sometimes been too harsh with a NO. What can happen is you get hard sell after hard sell where you tried to be nice and it just made things worse. The next dancer no matter how nice or well intentioned gets a ka pow! NO!!!!!!! Well, not even that bad. Just a little too aggressive. And, then she is upset and rightfully so.

I asked a woman if you would like to see such and such movie on blank date because I think she enjoy it because of blank, blank, blank. Her response: Sorry, you are too short! Was that rude or lacking manners? I didn't see it that way and appreciated that she volunteered exactly what she was feeling (it helped that it was just me and her!). If her response was you're a total asshole who disrespects women, then I probably would have been disappointed that she felt that way. Would that have been rude or lacking manners?

When I pull a woman away from her friends is that rude or lacking manners?

Some people know for a fact this is rude or that is lacking manners and this knowing seems very reasonable. The man who says hell no, definitely sounds rude. It could just be his attempt to show he is a man and hopes further conversation will result. Dancer may answer hell no? Are you saying you don't like me? Man then shows how cool he is by saying something like babe I like you way too much. Just looking at you has me ready to sling you over my shoulder and take you home! Heck, I'm sorry but I really do need a much less attractive dancer. Of course, in the original post hell no was followed by an explanation he preferred another dancer. That could have been his feeble attempt at smoothing the hell no. As in gee I was so harsh because that is who I really want and she's not here. Maybe she even already told him to drop dead for whatever reasons.

Sorry, you are too short! Was that rude or lacking manners?<<

I still think a simple "no thank you" would suffice.

If her response was you're a total asshole who disrespects women, then I probably would have been disappointed that she felt that way. Would that have been rude or lacking manners?<<

Depends on whether or not you've demostrated behaviors that would indicate that you're an asshole who disrespects women.

That could have been his feeble attempt at smoothing the hell no.<<

There was no attempt to smooth over anything. His tone, body language, etc. all indicated that his intention was to be abrasive and rude. That's what I still don't get.

As far as Shadowcat's theory with regard to alcohol, I don't believe this man was drunk. I could be totally off-base, as alcoholics are quite able to function normally after consuming copious amounts of liquor, but I don't think that I am.

I more likely to buy into the other theory presented: that he just gets off on being a dick due to his having been rejected elsewhere... but even that's problematic, as this guy didn't LOOK like he'd have too much trouble in the dating world (clean cut, decent looking, apparently had loads of money, etc). Perhaps he'd just gotten out of a bad relationship... I'm sure I'm taking this all too personally.

Speaking of strange cultures, in another thread I posted links to stories about schools in the U.S. that have NO hugging, NO handholding, NPA (No Public Displays of Affection) rules. One school stated something like it brings dishonor to the school and student or some filth like that.

Now, if you believe the school is correct then that is fine. I see it as nasty--very nasty. Also, the portion about dishonor or maybe it was discredit to school and student was, imo, total filth. The dishonor and discredit belongs to schools. :)

Anyway, given what I perceive to be sickness or insanity right here in the U.S. it is supposed to surprise me when some amateur finds people in a faraway place who have very different belief systems? I was listening to a fruit expert who had gotten back from visiting in the jungles of central america. Communication was a problem, however, he claims to have picked up the local language in only a few months. According to him different tribes with different languages like or use the word "sapote." Essentially, edible fruit or soft fruit. So I listened to his different tales and my bs alarm should go off? Anyway, the tribes thought it was crazy to name individual fruits and laughed when he tried to explain the concept. Only crazy people want to complicate things by naming individual fruits! (e.g. oranges, apples, grapes, etc.) Now, the fruit expert could have been wrong or confused or whatever. It just wouldn't surprise me if these different tribes have very different ways of thinking.

Hi MIDancer,

"this guy didn't LOOK like he'd have too much trouble in the dating world (clean cut, decent looking, apparently had loads of money, etc). Perhaps he'd just gotten out of a bad relationship... I'm sure I'm taking this all too personally."

One friend of mine has money, a successful business, a nice wife, clean cut, educated, charming, etc. Probably his biggest negative to some women is that he is old. One of his ideas is that the dances should be "free." Where did he come up with that? Given his background it seems even more bizzare. It is like the customer who didn't believe in tipping a $1 because he spent $3.75 for a drink. The point I'm attempting to make is that it can be almost impossible to understand where even a "normal" person is coming from so try and see it from that perspective. You might have reminded him of an old girlfriend or wife that dumped him!

">>Sorry, you are too short! Was that rude or lacking manners?<<

I still think a simple "no thank you" would suffice."

It made me feel better that she was "looked" based i.e. looks were very important to her. I'm looked based and it isn't fun when someone tries to lure or pull you away from what you consider attractive or important, imo. So many times I hear looks are unimportant--well, to you maybe!

" >>If her response was you're a total asshole who disrespects women, then I probably would have been disappointed that she felt that way. Would that have been rude or lacking manners?<<

Depends on whether or not you've demostrated behaviors that would indicate that you're an asshole who disrespects women."

And, different women have different standards as to what constitutes "a total asshole who disrespects women." Being anti-abortion might be enough for some women . . . etc.

So a women comes up and asks me for a date and I say No, you're a total gold digger slut. Is that rude or lacking manners? (BTW, I agree with your prior answer above that it depends.)

MIDancer: With your experience I'm sure you didn't take it personally, but I know how annoying it is to deal with rude and/or inconsiderate people. Reading your account, I think I know exactly what his problem was. I'm guessing that he'd spent a lot of money on that dancer to whom he referred and he was waiting for her - she might have even promised to come back later. In the meantime, she was probably giving other guys dances and from what you said she might have even left for the day because her shift had ended. Perhaps he was sitting there fuming about the money he spent and the fact that she hadn't returned and took out his frustrations on you.

Just my theory. I've experienced the frustration of a dancer promising to come see you and either taking a long time to do so... or never coming by. Of course I would never be rude to her or other dancers. The gist of the matter is, yes, he is an asshole.

AN: I don't think saying "maybe later" is rude, however it can be kind of annoyingly polite to a fault. So many guys say it when they mean "no thanks" (or, er, "hell no") that dancers can't be sure whether they mean it. And I think it's dumb for guys to complain that the girl never came back later. Dancers shouldn't be expected to retain all the various shades of intent and timing for every guy they ask. Their main interest is the guy who says, "Yes. Now."

Thinking of another culture tv show that I would expect people to be familar with is the one where the young women are being whipped bloody. It is on Directv. Maybe the Discovery channel. Flipping channels I must have seen it more than 4 times.

In the tribe a boy in order to become a man has to pass tests. The boy is under extreme emotional pressure because essentially if he fails his life with friends and family is over. Sounded like a death sentence. So far nothing really wacky to report, imo. Anyway the boy's female relatives and friends want to support him. This is where, imo, the group is brain dead. How do they support him? Writing letters to their congressmen? Protesting in the village square? How about a boycott of some products like hand soap? Nope, none of these mundane efforts for these girls and women. Public whippings are so much more interesting. The blood is running freely and the women have scars from previous whippings earned in support of male friends and relatives. The poor women, imo, go through a lot more physical pain than the boy who is to become a man, if he passes.

This, imo, is just another example of a wacky belief system by a different culture. Is it an accurate representation? I dunno know! :) I sure as hell don't have much faith in the U.S. media. The whole shabang could be staged. LOL!

Do most "normal" people consider these different cultures wacky? I think so, but again I don't know for 100%. If so, then can these "normal" people see their own culture has stupidity and wackiness? I don't think so generally, but again I don't know.

I think the mentality is pretty much simple simon. I had thought the zenith of idiocy was The Wall Street Journal's one man's terrorist is another man's terrorist. But, I maybe wrong. If it was as idiotic as I thought, then would they have publish repeated editiorial hammering the same idiocy? Apparently even those with intelligence and success could see that as reasonable or even a universal truth.

What does any of the above ranting have to do with manners? :) Well, different people have very different ideas of what is mannerly and what isn't. That is what I love about Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. He tried to show how important it was to try and see things thru other people's eyes. That does NOT mean if you love money therefore everybody and his brother has that same love. If a dancer could briefly become a nasty customer, then maybe she might even like or pity or at least understand the nasty customer.

Some of these dancer are so impressive how they take abuse and yet still like people! :)

Wow! I'm gone for 2 days and there's a new topic with 61 posts! That must be some kind of record. And after reading it all (well most of it anyway) I find 2 thinks of primary interest: (1) it's always fun to read the exchanges between AbbieNormal and Jablake, you two are hilarious (do you rehearse this stuff?); and (2) MIDancer has been dancing for 5 years and you've just now encountered your first extreme rudeness? I must be living in the wrong part of the country, I see it everyday without ever setting foot in a strip club, all I have to do is get on the highway.

Anyway I agree that some people are just total jerks, or he may have been having a really bad day, or that some guys go to strip clubs cause they get off insulting dancers (probably because they hate women and I'm sure the feeling is mutual) and they think they can get away with it in a strip club. MIDancer, thanks for livening up the board. Again.

Hi FONDL,

I'm very happy you see the humor in it. :) Yes, it does seem a little by design, imo.

Of course, I don't think it is ready for the comedy circuit just yet, but you never now! :) Many a comedian I don't care for others go ga ga over . . .

FONDL: It's not the first case of extreme rudeness in my dancing career, just my first encounter with so rude a reply to "do you want a dance?" Generally, my encounters with extreme rudeness occer in the VIP when the customer isn't receiving the type of mileage he wants. I consider it EXTREMELY rude to grab at certain body parts that I have already outlined as off-limits; so rude, in fact, that it is now my policy to always collect my money up front, and to let the customer know, when such an offense occurs, that he will only receive one warning. Two times and you're out.

I'll never understand how you gals do your job, MIDancer, and retain your sanity. Props to you. When dancers sometimes ask me if I had ever danced, I always tell that that I would probably have lasted about 5 minutes before I would have stuck a stilletto up some deserving customer's ass.

I just thought of something a bit amusing at least to me. The guy may have spent what he thought was a lot of tip money on the dancer he wanted to come over to dance for him. He was waiting then another dancer comes over (it may not have mattered who it was) and he just wanted to get rid of all other dancers. So he quickly says "hell no" to quickly get rid of whoever comes over.

I remember one night in a busy strip club, I was sitting quietly in an out of the way spot in the club. One dancer spotted me and pushed some chairs aside right into another customer as if she didn't care while she was coming towards me. I didn't think that was a good sign. Then she came over and asked for a dance. I declined and she made some stupid remark that only irritated me. I wouldn't have gotten a dance from her at that point if she paid me. Then another nicer dancer came over just a few minutes later. She simply asked if I mind if she sits at my table. I immediately told her I didn't want any dances. She told me she didn't ask that question. I let up and she sat down at my table and we talked for a while. She told me the last guys she asked told her when she asked if she minds if she sat with them "go away bitch, we don't want any of your fucking dances!" I would call that rude. However I wasn't too happy after the one dancer took rejection quite rudely. A few dancers can turn a customer from being in a good mood to a bad one. I know it works the other way around as well. A few of these jerks would actually be happy if they thought they were able to bring someone to tears. Some jerks live for that moment.

Fortunately here in the south, most drivers are generally nice. I thought one night when someone didn't turn on their turn signal and started to cut in front of me (almost hitting me before they readjusted back into their lane), I thought they were about to hit my car. I would have slowed down and let them in front of me if they had signaled. Anyway I turned and then saw a car coming down the road at high speed. I was nervous thinking, oh no, road rage and I don't know if there is a car full of rednecks with shotguns or what. Stupid jerks didn't signal and almost hit me and now they are chasing me down. Turned out the jerks were the police and they harassed me with their orders, telling me what to do, then making false accusations which I totally denied. I pretended it was like a bear attack where the best thing to do is play dead. Eventually they figured out I hadn't done anything wrong or were satisfied at their harassment and let me go.

Oh get this, the one officer made a comment saying I sounded quite a bit anxious. I'm thinking hell yeah, I didn't know if that unknown car racing down the road behind me was intent on hurting me or what. I wasn't used to anything like that and I was actually starting to speed to get away and then I see blue lights turn on instead. I don't know why the police think they can gun their engine and race down the road with no blue lights and not expect to alarm other drivers. The one officer may have been a total jerk or thought he was somehow wronged but I avoided making any remarks I would regret. Well I sorta made one. I believe after the second time he falsely said he smelled alcohol in my car, I said he was welcome to smell inside the car all he wanted to but I certainly didn't smell anything.

"She simply asked if I mind if she sits at my table. I immediately told her I didn't want any dances. She told me she didn't ask that question."

I dislike it when I get that response. Here I'm trying to be nice and it is unlikely she just wants to sit and talk. And, I just don't want to waste her time. Seems like generally it is the old guilt trip ploy. There are dancers who like to circulate and I guess that does seem rude to them when they receive answer to a question they might not even of asked. Also, it seems like these type dancers generally fall into the looks are pretty much worthless or shallow belief system. The question I get asked is wouldn't I rather have a nice intelligent average looking dancer or a hot super bitch? Super hot bitch to go please. :)

Dear MIdancer,

I think people are getting way too analytical here. The rude guy was (and is) an asshole. What makes people assholes? I think it's genetic.

Zorro

jablake: I have had that same response a couple of times myself from dancers and it's one of the most annoying things that dancers can do. Here I was, trying to be polite, trying not to waste her time and mine and all she does is act like a bitch. I was doing her a favor - I didn't let her sit and waste her time for 3 or 4 songs before she would ask me for a dance and I then decline. Customers can be rude assholes but so can a handful of dancers. Generally not the case, but sometimes.

Hi david120,

Well like you say it is one of the most annoying things that dancers can do, but sometimes (rarely) the dancer is on the level and her main motivation wasn't to separate you from your cash. As long as the dancer understands NO cash then I don't have a problem if she just wants to talk and some (very few) will waste a lot time even knowing you won't spend money on them.

Some customers would rightfully, imo, consider this dancer's response "bad manners." Just as I believe a customer's bad manners should generally be excused, I also believe a dancer's bad manners should generally be excused. It is the old walk in their shoes and then see if your perspective changes.

Supposedly the Japanese are one of the most polite people, but is that a positive? Yes and no. I'd rather have people be upfront even if that meant that they aren't pleasant. OTOH, politeness should lessen the chance for escalation of a conflict. Bottom line, imo, Miss Manners is a pestilence. :)

An all to typical occurance: a few evenings ago my wife and I went out to dinner at our local Outback and sat in the bar area where we usually do, we prefer it because there generally aren't any unruly children in the bar area like there usually are throughout the rest of the place.

So anyway there is a small group of people nearby at the bar, well dressed, maybe mid-30s, obviously professional hot-shit types. One of the guys' cel phone rings and instead of going outside he answers it right there and proceeds to have a very loud and long conversation. I turn and glare at him (he's standing near our table) and he proceeds to glare right back at me and makes no effort to either tone down his voice or move further from our table. Now that's my idea of really rude. And it is so typical these days. What ever happened to civility? Why are there so many assholes in our society? Should I have gotten up and told him he was an asshole? He totally disrupted our dinner, knew it and didn't give a shit. What would you have done?

As previously argued different people have different ideas of what constitutes bad behavior. And, when people are expected or forced to put on a "face" it promotes dishonesty.

If you aren't being well treated, then why would you care about the rest of society? In a dispute with my neighbor I knew I was in the wrong, but acted like a total asshole. She even ordered her husband to attack me, which he had the good sense to refuse. (I then taunted her about going "criminal." She was a law and order nut.) Her husband was a very nice man. She was the law this and the law that. I said you believe in the law so there is no reason for anger just use the police or courts to resolve the problem. It is so simple. She wanted me to be reasonable. I basically said screw that the attorneys need more money and more work. You believe in this garbage country so you have nothing to lose by attempting to resolve this matter through the proper channels. Amazingly years later we patched over our differences. She never did understand why I acted like a total asshole. The reason may sound crazy, but if you are going to yap about how fair and honest the courts are then I feel you should get first hand experience. You might be treated well or you might learn something. She might have prevailed in court and the court would have been right to rule in her favor! (imo)

I would have ignored him most likely. When young of course and possessing "higher" moral values I would probably have been in his face big time demanding he show some courtesy. The other solution is to see if the manager agrees with you first and second is he willing to do anything.

I feel like I suffered through worse in movies. The theater is empty and these two young women were surprisingly loud. I asked politely could they please talk more quitely and the response was essentially go to hell. And, that was that until the movie ended. Again, I was surprised in that leaving the theater they want to start trouble! First, they refused my request to please speak more quietly during the movie and then continued speaking loudly throughout with me just deciding to accept it. Second, they wish to start trouble outside the theater? Unreal. I just laughed and said you all don't realize it, but you've definitely found what you're looking for. It took a few seconds for it to sink in, but suddenly they realized that maybe picking a fight wasn't such a brilliant idea on their part. I allowed them to retreat, but said you know the next person might not let you retreat so be careful.

Who knows what problems they had. I wouldn't have even asked them to speak more quietly if I had known it would turn into such a major deal. Better to just leave or endure, imo. Another alternative would have been seeing if an usher or manager would help.

Maybe it was about 5 years ago. The Herald did a story on the elderly duking it out over rudeness. I think the sad thing was that one of the parties, the man that died, had extreme difficulty hearing. The first party confronted the second party over perceived rudeness and before you know it one old man was dead and the other was facing the end of his life at the hands of the criminal justice system.

Surprisingly, both men had good reputations and no prior problems with the law. If my memory is correct and much of the "rudeness" was due to the man's lack of ability to hear, then it makes it especially sad. :(

FONDL - Outback, a FAV of mine also. As far as the rudeness, I'm right with you. In fact, I'm at the point now, that I shut my cell phone off when I'm eating, getting massages, in a club. I turn it back on when I'm by myself again.

Bones, I have fond memories associated with Outback because it's the first place I ever met my ATF OTC. She also worked there off and on, which is probably why she wanted to meet there, she knew a lot of people and felt safe there. We ate there together many times.

I always just leave my cel phone in the car if I'm going somewhere where it might bother anyone. It doesn't go into restaurants or movies with me. Or strip clubs either for that matter. And the few times I've made exceptions to that (eg. I was waiting for an important call), when it rang I went outside before answering it. The problem I have with cel phones isn't that people talk into them, it's that most people yell into them, they talk much louder than they would if they were talking to someone standing next to them.