Comments by FONDL (page 30)

Bones, I have fond memories associated with Outback because it's the first place I ever met my ATF OTC. She also worked there off and on, which is probably why she wanted to meet there, she knew a lot of people and felt safe there. We ate there together many times. I always just leave my cel phone in the car if I'm going somewhere where it might bother anyone. It doesn't go into restaurants or movies with me. Or strip clubs either for that matter. And the few times I've made exceptions to that (eg. I was waiting for an important call), when it rang I went outside before answering it. The problem I have with cel phones isn't that people talk into them, it's that most people yell into them, they talk much louder than they would if they were talking to someone standing next to them.

I've had dancers tell me to smile. Usually the reason I'm not smiling is that I'm bored because none of the dancers appeal to me. And the only time I want to smile at a girl is if she interests me, because many dancers will interpret a smile as an invitation to join me. So I'm fairly careful who I smile at in a club.

Minnow, I guess it depends on what you mean by greed. Corporate exectuives get paid directly, whereas most of an elected official's compensation is indirect - eg. power, prestige, perks and the ability to direct huge amounts of money to friends. And often once they leave office, those same friends then hire them at huge salaries. I don't see that as being any less greedy or honest than how the corporate world operates. I agree that most CEO's are grossly overpaid. I also think rock stars, actors, and pro athletes, many of whom make far more than most corporate executives do, are too. Does that make them greedy too? Here's the problem I have with this whole concern about greed. What if I came up with some new legal idea for making tons of money. Does that make me greedy if I do it? Suppose I then turn around and start a charity with the money that helps other people, am I still greedy? Isn't what you do with the money just as important as how much you earn or how you earn it? Seems to me that lots of really wealthy people try pretty hard to help others.

"... we're taxed less than most developed nations ..." If only that were true. BG, if you look at all taxes, not just federal income taxes but all the various kinds of taxes from all government bodies (we're pretty unique in having all these different levels of government), we're one of the most heavily taxed nations in the world. But most people don't realize that because our taxes are so fragmented and we've been told that our tax burden is low, which is total BS. IMO if most working people realized how much they pay in taxes and how little they get in return, compared to other countries with similarly high tax burdens, we'd have a revolt on our hands. Which is why governments keep it hidden by fragmenting it. My tax burden has declined because I don't work or spend much anymore, but I feel sorry for people who do. High taxes are why you and so manhy other people have trouble supporting yourself. The thing that upsets me the most about it is that our fastest growing type of taxes are the regressive ones like sales and excise taxes - they fall most heavily on low income people. I think it's crimianl the way taxes are extracted from low and moderate income people so that politicians can give it to their friends who return some of it for their re-election campaigns. And both parties play the game.

And in case anyone cares, cardio is just as important as crunches in having a visible 6-pack. You can do stomach exercises till hell freezes over but they'll never show unless you get your body fat content low enough the there's littl fat around your midsection. And cardio, along with proper diet, is about the only thing that will ever get your body fat that low. Building muscle also helps because muscle burns much more calories than fat, even when you are at rest. (Alcohol increases belly fat.) I learned this stuff from my ATF, she's a health and fitness nut.

Maybe a better question should be, is customer quality declining? I think the answer is yes to that one too, at least from the stripper's point of view. I think there are fewer big spenders and more guys who treat strippers badly. Just a guess on my part.

OK, here's another one. I recently began seeing a chiropractor about a nagging problem I'm having. I've been thinking of doing so (my previous chiropractor hs moved away) when I spotted an ad in our local paper that said "free 60 minute massage for new clients" so I thought I could kill 2 birds with one wallet and see someone I should see anyway and get a free massage in the process. So I did. And I liked the massage, she was pretty good, not great but pretty good. So what would you tip her for a free massage? 20% (LOL)?

An all to typical occurance: a few evenings ago my wife and I went out to dinner at our local Outback and sat in the bar area where we usually do, we prefer it because there generally aren't any unruly children in the bar area like there usually are throughout the rest of the place. So anyway there is a small group of people nearby at the bar, well dressed, maybe mid-30s, obviously professional hot-shit types. One of the guys' cel phone rings and instead of going outside he answers it right there and proceeds to have a very loud and long conversation. I turn and glare at him (he's standing near our table) and he proceeds to glare right back at me and makes no effort to either tone down his voice or move further from our table. Now that's my idea of really rude. And it is so typical these days. What ever happened to civility? Why are there so many assholes in our society? Should I have gotten up and told him he was an asshole? He totally disrupted our dinner, knew it and didn't give a shit. What would you have done?

Bones, you are either full of shit up to your ears or you're the MAN!

BTW, I'm very envious of you guys who claim to have visible six-packs. I'm pretty fit but I still have enough blubber in my midsection that my ABS don't show. I'd have to give up wine to accomplish that. Fat chance (no pun intended.)

Bones, does she know that you enjoy going to strip clubs? If you can come up with an amusing way to introduce that topic, that conversation could be a way to where you want to go (she might even like to go with you some time.) You might also say something to the effect that you'd love to get a massage where you and the therapist are both nude, in a very dark room lit only by a few candles, and not by just anyone, it would have to be a therapist who you knew well and were very comfortable with. That's my fantasy with my ATF but I doubt if it will ever happen, she'd probably hit me if I suggested it. Sounds like you'll get there long before I will. You lucky dog.

Sorry MIDancer, my fault, I should have been more specific, I was referring to a totally different kind of nonprofit. DC is full of thousands of nonprofit organization whose people are well paid (especially those at the top) and that work like this - they identify some "problem" then lobby government for money to study it, then find that it is much more serious than anyone thought, then based on this "study" they lobby for more money to study it further and more money to help solve the problem and on and on it goes. Funny but these "studies" always conclude that the problem is really serious, maybe because the people doing the study have a huge vested financial interest in the outcome? But because they're done by a nonprofit, the media never question the study. And of course these nonprofits donate heavily to election campaigns, so government is more tha happy to help play the game. If evil business did this (some try) they'd be vilified and rightly so. I was a senior executive for such an organization (one of the major environmental groups) late in my career. After retiring from 30 years in the business community I thought it would be fun to do some good. Little did I know, the ethics were much lower than anything I ever encountered in business. But that's politics, it's all about money and power. Which is why I think the best government is that which governs least. I greatly admire the type of nonprofit organization that you refer to and greatly admire the volunteers who work with them (and I'm not surprised that you're one of them.) In my opinion that's how social problems should be addressed. Such organizations are much more capable of making a difference than government will ever be because they're local and can understand the problem, which government from afar can never do. Plus they care about the people they're trying to help, where government is all about money and politics. And in case you're wondering, yes I put my money and my time where my mouth is, I've been doing volunteer work for many years and I contribute to those organizations which I think do a good job. And finally to answer your question, I think (as did our Founding Fathers) that the opportunity to benefit from the results of one's own labors is one of our most precious freedoms. I don't think money should be forcibly extracted from those who toil to earn it unless there is an overwhelming public need to do so. I wouldn't mind government taking half of working people's income (as they now do) if it would help those in need. But they clearly haven't been able to do so. Give me a government program that would accomplish that goal and I will gladly support it. But given the ineffectiveness of today's approaches, no thanks. Let people keep their money so they have more to donate to the volunteer organizations.

MIDancer, people who express views like yours often make two common assumptions with which I strongly disagree: (1) They equate caring with support for more government spending on programs to support the less fortunate. My problem is that I don't think many of our social programs are working, and throwing more money at them won't help anyone. I'd like to see the less fortunate have better lives too, but I don't think giving more money to the Federal governmewnt is the best way to do it. Preference for a different approach doens't make one any less caring. (2) They also think that business and the private sector have a monopoly on greed and low ethics. My experience with government and the non-profit world strongly suggest otherwise. Greed is part of human nature, most people want to improve their own standing regardless of where they live or work, and more never seems to be enough. Greed and dishonesty is every bit as common in government and the nonprofit world as in the business world. Maybe more so. One problem with greed is that it's impossible to define, it means different things to different people. My dictionary defines it as "excessive desire for food or wealth." But what's excessive to one person is essential to another. We all have a view of how one ought to live, but our views are all different. Personally I'm glad that I live in a country where no one else can tell me how to live. If greed is the price for that freedom, I'm willing to tolerate it.

David, when she quit dancing my ATF became a waitress in a popular sports bar. She used to refer to it as "flirting for a living." I once asked her on a very cold day in January why she was wearing short shorts at work - she replied that she got more tips that way. The two jobs - waitressing and stripping - have more similarities than you might think. Professor, I don't know what GAD means that's a new on on me. If you mean SAD (which I've always called my winter blues, I lke that name better), I've suffered from that all my life, and it got steadily worse as I got older - it's why I take my vacation in the winter and go south where the days are longer. Then one spring it didn't go away and stayed with me for over a year until I met my ATF. She also suffers from depression, which is probably what first brought us together. We've helped each other get better and we both know it.

Yoda, that's a valid point. If you mean the late 1960s, yes I was going to clubs before than. But the sexual revolution and women's movement weren't one-time events, they've been ongoing processes and the changes they produced are still evloving. For example, the role of women in our society and the way that men and women relate to each other today is quite different than it was 20 years ago, and I believe it will be different 20 years from now. I'm sure that the experience of being a teenager, especially a female one, has changed and is continuing to do so, and some of those girls will become strippers. Sorry if you find this kind of subject boring but I enjoy speculating on such things. Maybe because for many years following and interpreting social changes was a major part of my job.

MIDancer, I think the main difference between your views and mine is that you see free markets and caring for people as mutually exclusive concepts while I see free markets as the most effective way of helping the most people. I think it was you who made a comment elsewhere that it isn't fair to compare the poor in this country with the poor in many other countries because the poor elsewhere are so much worse off. Don't you wonder how that came to be? It wasn't always so. Free markets - or in your words greed - is what made it happen. The reason the poor elsewhere are so terribly poor is largely because their government-controlled economic systems don't work, very few people benefit from them. For example, in most African countries where large numbers of people are starving, it isn't because of a lack of available food, it's because of a lack of infrastructure, there's no way to get the food to the starving people, most of the food grown in those countries spoils before it ever gets to market. A free market system would solve that problem much more effectively than government has been able to do. You also disparage our gap between rich and poor. And yet that gap is much larger in countries where there isn't a democracy. Greed plays just as big a role in socialist and communist countries, it's just that fewer people benefit from it. My two favorite political quotes are: "The best government is that which governs least" - Thomas Jefferson; and "A rising tide lifts all boats" - John F. Kennedy. What's interesting is that both men were the leading liberals of their day. I know that these quotes are now consideredd to be trite by some. And yet they remain as true today as they were when first spoken. I think the lack of understanding of basic economics in this country is appalling. IMO if more people understood economics fundamentals, we'd make much better political decisions.

Bones, tell us more about those "deep tissue" massages, what tissues are you referring to (lol)? Seriously, I think the greatest impact my ATF has had on me is that I used to look down on people like her from her kind of background, thinking I was better than them. Now I realize I'm just luckier than them. And that realization has changed everything - the world looks very different to me now than it used to.

MIDancer, that used to be true but many community colleges now offer 4-year degrees. My ATF actually plans to get a Masters degree in nursing, which will require her to transer to a local university. But because of her business success she should be able to do that without going into debt. But my point here is that there are lots of people out there getting college degrees without parental help and without incurring a lot of debt. It isn't easy but lots of people are doing it. And congratulations on figuring out that I am indeed a Libertarian, how did you know? I believe that our individual freedoms are being lost at an alarming rate as government keeps getting bigger and bigger, and when this country ultimately becomes a second-rate nation like socialist Europe, in whose footsets we are following, loss of personal freedom will be a major reason why. But to get back to strip clubs, Minnow, I agree that the paradigm shift in sexual mores has had a major impact on strip clubs, I'm just not sure what that impact is. Women in the workplace is just one part of the changing roles of women, and in terms of the impact on strip clubs may be relatively minor compared to changing sexual roles. And you are absolutely correct that working women are contributing significantly to the gap between rich and poor. Consider two working men, one highly educated the other not, the former earning $100k, the latter 30k. Put both their wives to work and see what happens. The firt guy's wife probably is also highly educated and gets a job earning $80k, the second guy's wife isn't and can only make $20k. The gap between their family incomes has widened dramatically if both women work. Furthermore, because of the lost "opportunity cost" of staying home, the educated guy's wife is much more likely to be in the work force full time. This is a good example of why the income gap is widening in our country.

How about "Body Double?" Practically the whole movie was one long strip tease act. A good one too. That and "9-1/2 Weeks" are the best that I remember. But I don't go to movies much anymore.

Chipitin, I'm not sure I agree with your last sentence, I think you could just as easily argue that strip clubs get some customers started on the slippery slope that eventually leads to escorts. But other than that I agree that strip clubs fulfill a need and aren't likely to disappear any time soon. I just wonder if younger guys are likely to be as atracted to strip clubs as they age as many of us have been, or if their experience with women in general could cause them to find clubs less attractive than we do. I don't know the answer to that question. Which is why I raised this topic in the first place: is the changing role of women in our society, and the changing way that guys view women, a positive or a negative for strip clubs?

My ATF's positive influences on me are way too numerous to list here. I'm not sure I'd even be alive today if not for her. I'll just list two examples - my positive outlook on life is entirely due to her. And I've not had a bout of depression, which was always a big problem for me, since we met.

Jablake, you may not be aware of it but one of the biggest proponents of stiff business regulations is business itself. The main reason that barbers and massage therapists and plumbers and hair dressers and lawyers etc. all have licensing requirements is that they asked for them in order to reduce competition. It's what business trade associations and trade unions always do, they petition government to enact strong regulations for their industry to make it more difficult for others to get into the business. It's usually done in the name of consumer protection but the real purpose is to restrict competition. Some regulation is necessary but it almost always goes too far - that's the nature of government. Do you really care if your barber or massage therapist is licensed?

"Furthermore, I think that the attitude I encountered the other night was completely unnacceptable." MIDancer, I agree completely. I'm not trying to excuse anyone's bad behavior. My point is that men used to only treat each other that way, they were usually more polite to women. That has changed as the distinctions between men and women have narrowed. In an ideal world we'd all, men and women, treat each with respect. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. And I agree that there are many reasons for the need (or desire) for two incomes where one used to do. But I think opening more opportunities for women is one of them. It's a zero sum game - if women earn more, by definition men earn less. If women get better jobs, by definition fewer good jobs are available for men. I'm not saying anything is wrong with that, I'm just pointing out what is. Anytime there's major change there's likely to be a cost associated with that change. And usually the people who pay that cost are different than the people who reap the benefits. In this case I think the people who are paying most of the cost are those men and women, and their children, who don't have enough education to take advantage of the increased opportunities. The people who have benefitted are those women who do. I also agree with David9999. With few exceptions, the best thing government can do for a country's economy is to get out of the way. Virtually all historical evidence shows that to be true. I've known a lot of people who have worked a full-time job and gone to their local community college without going into debt. My ATF is doing that as we speak. She runs her business, goes to school full time, and is fully self-supporting. Without taking out any loans.

Jablake, sorry but I was being sarcastic. I think a club owner or manager has every right to set whatever relevant standards they wish for their employees, that's how a free market works.

MIDancer, I'm all in favor of equality for women, I think it's been good for the country as a whole and I think it's absolutely the right thing to do. But don't be fooled into thinking that all women have benefitted, many have been hurt by it. For example, many women who would prefer to stay home and be a housewife are worse off for at least 2 reasons: (1) their husbands, particulary those who aren't college graduates, probably earn less than they otherwise would, so the family income is lower; and (2) the economic cost of staying home has increased significantly. Those factors have forced many women to go to work outside the home who would prefer not to, which often makes it more difficult to raise a family - not only are the women hurt by this, their children may be too. Equality for women hasn't been a win-win situation, there have been losers and they aren't all men. Jablake has raised the issue that I think has had the greatest impact on strip clubs, namely the sexual revolution. Years ago, unless you had a steady girl friend or wife, the only option most guys had for seeing and playing with naked women was in a strip club. Most young women didn't "put out" then, to use an antiquated term. Now there are lots of other options for guys. You used to be able to do more in a strip club than you could on most dates, now it's probably the reverse. And the dates usually cost less. The strip club has lost it's novelty, especially for young single guys. And I think that has hurt strip clubs perhaps more than anything else. And is a major reason why a lot of guys expect "extras." But the sexual revolution probably has made it more acceptable for more women to become strippers. So overall I'd say it has increased the supply and decreased the demand. The revolution also has ahd another effect. Before things changed, most guys treated girls with respect. I don't think that's as common anymore, either inside the club or outside. Some girls probably prefer it that way but many don't. MIDancer, this is exactly what you complained about not long ago - IMO the type of attitude that you encountered is partly a result of the changing role of women in our society. (It also reflects the general decline in civility but that's another issue.)