I feel like I dodged a bullet by not getting married
Book Guy
I write it like I mean it, but mostly they just want my money.
I dunno, I feel like sharing these thoughts. In the interest of creating a non-political discussion topic.
Those of you who are married, how did that work out for you? Those of you who aren't?
I used to really work it in the dating game, when I was in my 20s and 30s. I guess it's natural at those ages to really try to land attractive women. I did OK, nothing stellar but nothing particularly disappointing. I think I probably had most of the same misconceptions as most young men at the time. I was born in the mid-1960s so I was dating throughout the 80s and 90s. In High School I was a late bloomer but eventually landed a few of the girls who were (so I thought) the hottest in the school. I didn't carry through on that level of success in college, in fact did pretty poorly, but then things picked up again when I was in grad school.
But none of them was ever really a potential keeper, in my mind. Over all my general impression was, that if only the chicks were hotter, if only I ended up with someone that really turned my crank a lot, then I would be willing to stay with her. I had a strange sense, even right at the outset of relationships or "stands," that the girl wasn't good enough. I didn't mean to think of it in terms of something arrogant like, "I'm so much more desirable than her." That's not how it worked in my mind at all. It was just, "Gosh I hope she doesn't make me have to have sex with her again," a kind of automatic response. Or, "I think she's deliberately trying to turn me off, with that lesbian-dyke style outfit and the failed make-up."
I did fall for some of the feminist lies that were prevalent at the time. I'm willing to be politically rather feminist -- equal pay for equal work; no problem with women in the military or in corporate leadership -- but in relationships it wasn't working for me. I heard the stories, probably from my mother at first, and certainly from the politically-correct (we'd call them "woke" now) college protest crowd, that a relationship "should" be built on something less "shallow" than mere physical attraction. Stupid me, I tried to date girls that I didn't have enough physical attraction for. It really backfired on them, because it just meant I didn't want to continue the relationship.
For a while, after I figured out how to understand all of that, I really began to feel sorry for myself. "Why did I let them fool me?" I wondered, and I figured I had wasted my dating opportunities on uglies. Nice people, but since I really didn't want to have to fuck them, we weren't going to end up in long-term relationships, and now it's too late, I'm too old to actually land someone I consider a hottie. I'm almost 60, have remained single, and really I'm only attracted to 20 or 30 year old women's bodies. I did go back to another graduate program in my 40s, and I noticed that a lot of the 30s and 20s year olds I was in class with, were no more or less attractive than the girls in my previous graduate program, but by then I was a lot more cynical about it.
So after I got done feeling sorry for myself, I started to feel instead like I had dodged a bullet. Feminism and marriage, I now calculate, are dirty tricks engineered to entrap human males into permanent arrangements that we don't really want. Every girl I lusted after, and resented, from my college days, now shows up as an unpleasantly overweight middle-aged woman. And what's more? She isn't very cooperative or pleasant, either. They've gotten hard-edged and angry, as I have mellowed. They resent the fact that nobody gives a shit about their stupid opinions, now that they don't have perky tits. Well, my suggestion would be, get better opinions and people will care about them regardless of the perkiness of your tits; or, if you're going to rely on tit perkiness to bolster your stupid opinions, don't be surprised when people start ignoring you once your tits sag.
I notice the same thing in my mom's book club. I take care of my 80s-year-old mother, she goes off to monthly discussions with other drab round-faced round-armed mousy people, I just wonder how their husbands can stand the concept. These women read the books very poorly, come out with idiot opinions about them, don't notice ironic situations, are bored by books that don't have enough plot, think "Chicken Soup For ..." is the height of introspective philosophy, and yet they are angry that men aren't interested in their opinions. Or, more accurately, they're angry that the interest level has CHANGED from what they remember from back when they were hotties.
So I used to feel sorry for myself, and I sometimes still regret having missed the chance to date really beautiful women, and the other chance to raise a family. I have no dependents (unless you count my mother, I guess), that sets me free to monger as I choose. The grass is no longer greener, but it could have been. It's not romantically fulfilling at all, and interpersonally I wonder if I'm missing something. There must be some kind of long-term human growth and spiritual awakening that most people in permanent marriages have the benefit of, but that I'm not ever going to experience. Since I haven't had it, I don't know what it is, so I ask the married guys here, what did I miss? Do you regret locking yourself in on it?
I have a vaguely unprovable opinion, that marriage is a crock, especially if it's the typical North American materialistic thing. So I feel like, Ha! joke's on them! They convinced me to be all fucking woke and instead of that making me get entrapped into something unfulfilling and then trying to convince myself it "should" be happiness, I just rejected their woke relationships because I didn't want to fuck the uglier girls I was "supposed" to be attracted to. Sure sure, they were nice people, I'm sure they're kind to small animals, they fly kites and have nice singing voices, yadda yadda, but I wanted a hot and intelligent woman. And that was none of them. I lacked some kind of "game" or something, that they were looking for at the time (if I remember correctly, the best decoder for female behavior was "Sex and the City" at the time, which I would watch kind of like a Kremlinologist to try to surveille enemy secrets).
Too much information? Your thoughts?
Those of you who are married, how did that work out for you? Those of you who aren't?
I used to really work it in the dating game, when I was in my 20s and 30s. I guess it's natural at those ages to really try to land attractive women. I did OK, nothing stellar but nothing particularly disappointing. I think I probably had most of the same misconceptions as most young men at the time. I was born in the mid-1960s so I was dating throughout the 80s and 90s. In High School I was a late bloomer but eventually landed a few of the girls who were (so I thought) the hottest in the school. I didn't carry through on that level of success in college, in fact did pretty poorly, but then things picked up again when I was in grad school.
But none of them was ever really a potential keeper, in my mind. Over all my general impression was, that if only the chicks were hotter, if only I ended up with someone that really turned my crank a lot, then I would be willing to stay with her. I had a strange sense, even right at the outset of relationships or "stands," that the girl wasn't good enough. I didn't mean to think of it in terms of something arrogant like, "I'm so much more desirable than her." That's not how it worked in my mind at all. It was just, "Gosh I hope she doesn't make me have to have sex with her again," a kind of automatic response. Or, "I think she's deliberately trying to turn me off, with that lesbian-dyke style outfit and the failed make-up."
I did fall for some of the feminist lies that were prevalent at the time. I'm willing to be politically rather feminist -- equal pay for equal work; no problem with women in the military or in corporate leadership -- but in relationships it wasn't working for me. I heard the stories, probably from my mother at first, and certainly from the politically-correct (we'd call them "woke" now) college protest crowd, that a relationship "should" be built on something less "shallow" than mere physical attraction. Stupid me, I tried to date girls that I didn't have enough physical attraction for. It really backfired on them, because it just meant I didn't want to continue the relationship.
For a while, after I figured out how to understand all of that, I really began to feel sorry for myself. "Why did I let them fool me?" I wondered, and I figured I had wasted my dating opportunities on uglies. Nice people, but since I really didn't want to have to fuck them, we weren't going to end up in long-term relationships, and now it's too late, I'm too old to actually land someone I consider a hottie. I'm almost 60, have remained single, and really I'm only attracted to 20 or 30 year old women's bodies. I did go back to another graduate program in my 40s, and I noticed that a lot of the 30s and 20s year olds I was in class with, were no more or less attractive than the girls in my previous graduate program, but by then I was a lot more cynical about it.
So after I got done feeling sorry for myself, I started to feel instead like I had dodged a bullet. Feminism and marriage, I now calculate, are dirty tricks engineered to entrap human males into permanent arrangements that we don't really want. Every girl I lusted after, and resented, from my college days, now shows up as an unpleasantly overweight middle-aged woman. And what's more? She isn't very cooperative or pleasant, either. They've gotten hard-edged and angry, as I have mellowed. They resent the fact that nobody gives a shit about their stupid opinions, now that they don't have perky tits. Well, my suggestion would be, get better opinions and people will care about them regardless of the perkiness of your tits; or, if you're going to rely on tit perkiness to bolster your stupid opinions, don't be surprised when people start ignoring you once your tits sag.
I notice the same thing in my mom's book club. I take care of my 80s-year-old mother, she goes off to monthly discussions with other drab round-faced round-armed mousy people, I just wonder how their husbands can stand the concept. These women read the books very poorly, come out with idiot opinions about them, don't notice ironic situations, are bored by books that don't have enough plot, think "Chicken Soup For ..." is the height of introspective philosophy, and yet they are angry that men aren't interested in their opinions. Or, more accurately, they're angry that the interest level has CHANGED from what they remember from back when they were hotties.
So I used to feel sorry for myself, and I sometimes still regret having missed the chance to date really beautiful women, and the other chance to raise a family. I have no dependents (unless you count my mother, I guess), that sets me free to monger as I choose. The grass is no longer greener, but it could have been. It's not romantically fulfilling at all, and interpersonally I wonder if I'm missing something. There must be some kind of long-term human growth and spiritual awakening that most people in permanent marriages have the benefit of, but that I'm not ever going to experience. Since I haven't had it, I don't know what it is, so I ask the married guys here, what did I miss? Do you regret locking yourself in on it?
I have a vaguely unprovable opinion, that marriage is a crock, especially if it's the typical North American materialistic thing. So I feel like, Ha! joke's on them! They convinced me to be all fucking woke and instead of that making me get entrapped into something unfulfilling and then trying to convince myself it "should" be happiness, I just rejected their woke relationships because I didn't want to fuck the uglier girls I was "supposed" to be attracted to. Sure sure, they were nice people, I'm sure they're kind to small animals, they fly kites and have nice singing voices, yadda yadda, but I wanted a hot and intelligent woman. And that was none of them. I lacked some kind of "game" or something, that they were looking for at the time (if I remember correctly, the best decoder for female behavior was "Sex and the City" at the time, which I would watch kind of like a Kremlinologist to try to surveille enemy secrets).
Too much information? Your thoughts?
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65 comments
However, I was born in the 90s and got separated from the love of my life just over 1.5 years ago. This is partly how this strip club obsession began and now I've learned my lesson after being taken for everything, literally, and also pretty much got left for dead the last time I ever saw her in our home (can't believe I still call it "our" home) in the local loony bin lol.
Long story short, I love the transactional stuff as long as the girl can fulfill the fantasy for that night.
I don't date anymore.
I don't seek out "the one" anymore.
I love solitude and sexy girls when I got time - just need to cut down on my drinking haha.
Besides that, life is way more chill.
@Book Guy, I was born in the late 70s, and was shy to the point of “is there something wrong with Puddy Tat?” Didn’t date in high school. I went to a top academic institution where few found a happy medium in dating…some went off the leash partying and screwing and picking up drinking problems and STDs, but most of us just knew jack shit about dating. It meant there were a lot of hot chicks (mostly Asian and Indian, who were even more sheltered) who didn’t know how hot they were but so awkward that Casanova himself couldn’t have landed them.
After a few years of post-college frustration I got into the predecessor of the man-o-sphere scene and learned the game that way. Got my “game” and started dating like absolute mad. In grad school, I quickly took a vow of intra-school celibacy since it got so catty and political, but was seen outside campus with enough different women that I got a low-key “player” reputation. I’m a private person so I didn’t divulge the extent of it.
Like you, I had a lot of “if only she were hotter” or somehow knowing why the relationship would end before it actually did. A couple of them caught “feels” before I did. One in my twenties just kept pushing for a ring I wasn’t ready for. Another one in my twenties wasn’t hot enough (super affectionate though) and manipulative; one of those women that thinks she can customize her man’s life, what friends he associates with, what he wears, etc. If she were hotter, I might have accepted it, but alas. One was super hot but turned into a raging cunt very quickly. That “relationship” lasted about 3 weeks. The longest one, we could have made it work but had very different life plans. The one I left two months ago was two decades younger than me and smoking hot but manipulated through weakness.
Politically, I’ve always been conservative—no matter my age, religious views, income levels, or other life circumstances that fluctuated over time—and feminism always disgusted me. Not because I’m not pro-equal pay/opportunity and pro-choice, because to a one every self-identified feminist I’ve ever met has been a miserable, unhappy individual. Like the “wokes” of today, getting offended and taking it out on the world is their hobby. The Puddy Tat is no one’s scratching post!
But I internalized enough that men were trying to “get something” from women that women didn’t want to give. It felt like a con, and I got bitter, until I found the dating/men’s advice community. There are good ones in there among the flaming fucking pricks, I found one, and got my head on straight. But I had also since discovered extras, and I loved (and still love) seeing a lineup of dancers, being able to ask one, and have a very high likelihood of sex while being able to go back to solitude a few minutes later. I’ve always liked the variety, and no one woman can provide that.
I’m also seeing the dating pool get immature and delusional. (I’m sure women face their own issues but I don’t date men so I’m only speaking to my experience). A lot of them want to spend their 20s/30s partying and whoring out, or climbing the corporate ladder, only after accruing hard miles, possibly unwanted kids or STDs, and then wanting to “settle down.” An old colleague of mine once said “men mature, women get old.”
I’m not Casanova, but my “sexual market value” is fairly high. I’m a decent looking though not movie star guy, making good money now, have lost 75 pounds in the last year, naturally age well (great genetics), likely about to land an even better job and publish my first book. I think it was Sean Connery in “Finding Forrester” that said you can publish a bad book and get laid (mine is looking pretty good). The Puddy Tat can hiss and bring the claws and fangs out, but if I’m feeling a connection (and wouldn’t rather be alone), he knows how to make the ladies purr. So why would I date a turned-out party girl or someone obsessed with working 90 hour weeks to make partner at Dewey, Cheethem, and Howe Law Firm?
While I haven’t ruled it out, I realized I crave my freedom and alone time, and marriage and kids might cramp that to the point that I feel resentful. I’m more married to my hobbies right now (strip clubbing is on the list but not very high), and love my friends (the Puddy Tat is very loyal to his clowder). They say to look at your five closest friends, and only two of them are married with kids, and I don’t know if I’d swap lives with them. They say even if they weren’t sure, now they couldn’t see it any other way.
Would I raise a family? Haven’t ruled it out. Part of the Puddy Tat thinks having his own kittens would be cool, to raise and shape them into strong men and women. But again, would I just resent them and see them as demands on my freedom? I don’t want to create lives, or pull people into my life, just to resent them. Part of that might by my own upbringing; my relationship with my parents is great now, but in my younger days when money was tight, I was constantly told what a drain on finances I was and how I took them for granted, etc. Now it’s just like motherfucker I didn’t choose to be born to you.
It’s what you said about the long-term growth and spiritual awakening. Would it make me so much better of a person and pillar of my community? Or am I just the one who asked questions I wasn’t supposed to, and see the Matrix?
I’d almost compare it to owning a single-family home; my best friend loves doing home improvement projects.
“Cool, what are you doing this weekend?”
“Oh, I’m installing some recessed lighting, mowing the lawn, taking my kids to the local pool, you?”
“Hitting up a club on Friday, got jiu-jitsu Saturday, working on my book, not sure what else.”
The idea of spending my whole weekend doing housework shit I don’t necessarily have to is, to me, two steps from death. I just pay a condo fee and get that handled. My salary can more than handle it. Psychologists say that’s the best use of money, using it to buy time, especially to do things you can’t do as well as someone else.
I wonder if I’m the enlightened one or the ignorant one. I’m loving my 2 month break from dating, which will last at least through the summer. Until then, the Puddy Tat is enjoying the company of some alley cats, eating the finest fish, swatting the best toy mice, and rolling in the high-quality catnip he can find.
Tbh I don't think you're going to find a sample pool here that is representative of the general population of guys. Guys who frequent strip clubs are more likely to fall into one of two camps: those who struggle with monogamy and those who simply struggle with women period.
As someone in the former camp, I was never a very good husband. I could never quell my urges for excitement and new adventures. Age has finally started to do that for me, but after two wives and multiple live-in GFs in between, I've concluded that I'm much better off unattached.
But with that said, I don't regret getting married because without it I would not have my children. I cannot imagine life without them. My only wish is that I could have given them an intact home for their entire childhood. Instead here I sit as their primary caregiver, trying to guide them through their teen years, which proves that the universe is truly a fucked up place. 😆
A few years ago, I sold my business and she left her employer to found a solo medical practice. We have since grown that into a privately-owned multi-specialty practice which is very well-regarded and quite profitable. We have one of the most envied and desirable homes in our neighborhood, new cars, lots of toys, housekeepers, landscapers,
After a bit of backslide (multiple reasons), she's getting even fitter and sexier as I've talked her into working out with weights and playing recreational sports.
While it's generally best to have people in your life to rely on, it doesn't need to be a spouse. It can be family members or trusted friends.
... landscapers, masseuses, a designer pool, hot tubs, and a revolving door of contractors making improvements and adding built-ins to the home. We eat out regularly at Connor's Steakhouse, Cooper's Hawk, Ruth's Chris, and more. Vacations throughout the Caribbean and United States (Las Vegas, Los Angeles, downtown Chicago, Miami, Myrtle Beach, etc.).
As I said, she backslid a bit the first years of marriage (she was amazingly fit when we met, but that's being an overworked and underfed medical student), but her body is back and better then ever. Her libido is even challenging mine.
Honestly, and I have been reluctant to post this for the past month or so, but I realized something during my last trip to Oz. Yes, I got dances and offers for ITC. Some of those dancers were 9s and nearly 10s. I didn't pull the trigger for a couple of reasons, but mostly that these dancers did not offer anything I wasn't already getting. Some were even sexier than my wife, no doubt, but we all know the sex was not going to be as good. It would be covered, rushed, mechanical, on a disgusting couch, and costing far more than it was worth. It's like renting a Nissan Altima for triple the normal rate to go to the grocery store while your Lincoln is parked in the driveway. I look at some of the upcoming convention and business travel I have planned, and I think the odds are against me going to a club.
This is not to say that everything has been sunshine and roses. There have been sacrifices, missed opportunities, blow out arguments and damned near a divorce. However, working through these things and sharing a path is part of our personal growth. If you have chosen to be single and it's working out for you, then good for you. If you got married and divorced, that's a shame. If your wife killed herself to get away from you, then you need to really assess what kind of a person you are. If you are Joe Biden, and Jill and Hunter are manipulating you in desperate bid to maintain power, then wake up and step aside.
TL:DR - I'm happy. If you are not, look in the mirror.
There Are Benefits Of Being Married But People Do Make Error'd Decisions Of Who They Shouldn't Have Selected.
Have been with my wife for almost 35 years. She got very ill earlier this year and it looked like my time with her was running short. I had an epiphany: without her everything I have done in my life and I everything I have would be meaningless and of no value. Life without her would be devoid of joy, devoid of love and devoid of the reason I get up every day to face the world. I made one correct decision in my life: getting married to my lovely wife.
Honestly, at his age, I would have thought that was what I would have wanted as well - being surrounded by gorgeous, uninhibited, young women in the hippest and party-all-night neighborhood. It is amazing what you can discover about yourself when you get exactly what you want.
I think about the life created together, and the easiest way to build wealth is to be successfully married, and the quickest way to destroy wealth is to get divorced. Pick your battles, but pick the woman you’re going to war with and won’t give up, and you’ll find yourself a keeper. One thing is you never know what life throws at you, so definitely avoid fickle women. Looks will fade, and so will your libido, but the memories and content you retain with the family you create allows you to ride off into the sunset being thrown on top of a heap of rubbish, totally exhausted. I’d rather have been married and miserable than to have never tried, and find the same result.
Like skibum, I don't know what I'd do without my wife and kids. I *also* had a loving relationship with my ATF (with my wife's full knowledge and support, for those who haven't been around long enough), and even though she's gone now, I wouldn't have traded it for anything.
If there was a woman you had discussed the possibility of marriage with, that's a concrete situation that could be evaluated. But I don't know what we can do with the question "should I have married?". It's like asking should I travel? To Paris, the South Pole, doesn't matter.
If you aren't attracted to women over 40, that's likely to mean 30+ years of celibacy or open marriage for both of you. Not an easy path to tread, or to find a spouse willing to tread it.
Yes. That too...
Whenever I get too close for my liking to a new girl, in or out of the SC), I just start pushing back and really back away from any further levels of intimacy (not even sexual but even eye contact and whatnot, I just am warning them by always diverting eye contact with a new girl or just straight up ruin it for both of us by saying I'm a shithead and was an extremely emotionally (almost physically) abusive partner, for example.... but I digress). Running on no sleep and working nights is no bueno.
Off to bed, gents.
But I love my life, and in the end isn't that what matters?
otherwise...
those 2 couples, and the few above that replied above are what i consider outliers. like totally real fucking rare, especially at this day and age. in the past 10-15 years i knew 10 guys that got married. now in 2024, 8 of those 10 got divorced.
to take the gamble of marrying someone who at that particular moment seems to be your ideal soulmate is not a good bet. the way the laws are in place men can get wrecked real bad after a divorce is finalized. all 8 informed me of the post divorce payouts. i'm actually quite surprised that not one of them ever actually contracted a professional to perform a hit job, or even set the house on fire.
so yeah i consider myself one of them guys that dodged away from machine gun fire. before that inevitable divorce i just could never ever want to be in that situation when the words in my mind say "shit fuck i now have to go home to that."
This is a really interesting post and gave me something to think about.
All things considered; marriage worked out OK for me. Not awesome, not terrible, but OK.
After dating some women who were suitable physically, but a poor fit emotionally, I found my wife. We married when I was in my early 30s and she was in her late 20s. We’re both amateur musicians, educated, professionals, mildly liberal, atheists, have similar views on child rearing, etc. We fight from time to time, but it’s manageable, and overall, we like and respect one another. So, it’s a decent fit in many respects. One aspect of our relationship is that we tend to do our own things, she hangs with her friends, I do my hobbies, etc. So, we’re not in one another shit all the time.
Like many on this thread, kids are hands down the best thing to come from our union. I love them to the moon and enjoy every chance I get to spend with them, even when they are being difficult. I didn’t want kids, but once I had them, I loved them.
The big downside for me has been sex. It started out great, she was hot and young, and was up for anything. We did lots of swinging and poly stuff too, which was overall kind of a net negative, but did have its fun points. We had plenty of sex with one another for a while. Then after about 5 years, it got to be less fun and less overall quantity. After the kids came at year 10, sex really took a nosedive. Now in year 25 sex is a source of great frustration for us: she barely wants to do it, and I’m still as horny as I was as a young man. I feel rejected and she feels pressured. Therapy has been undertaken multiple times, with poor results in the sex department. Each year it becomes more of an unsolvable puzzle with new variables.
It’s come to a point where I feel like I have 3 choices:
1. Marriage
2. Sex
3. Marriage + Sex Workers
I’ve considered leaving, but in my mid 50’s, I feel like this would be an enormous pain in the ass with a lot of repercussions (financial, emotional, children) and not a lot of hot sex. The women in my circles who wanted to fuck me as a side piece in my 30’s and 40’s are now menopausal, and much less interested in that type of arrangement. Many of my single peers have given up trying to find a woman and subsist on porn. I suspect that my value on the open market is going to be middling at best. So, for now, I work on finding a way to put 1 and 2 together, while relying on 3. Full disclosure: she knows I go to SCs, but doesn't know the extent of what goes on there. As I have mentioned elsewhere, she is a great ignorer of things that she doesn't want to know about. Thus to some degree option 3 is serviceable while suboptimal.
In summary: my marriage worked out OK, not great but also not horrible.
I thought it might be interesting to respond to some of the points the OP made…
“if only I ended up with someone that really turned my crank a lot”
This is IMO misguided. The person you end up with will be your partner, in child rearing, housekeeping, wealth building, family managing, etc. The amount of time you spend fucking your wife as a family man is a tiny tiny fraction of your life. Obviously, a person that turns you off is a non-starter, but even someone who turns your crank today is going to get old eventually. Even if they stay hot for their whole life, you’re not going to be fucking her that much because you are her husband. So, marrying for looks alone is a terrible idea. Attraction is an aspect of marriage, but a minor one.
“a relationship ‘should’ be built on something less ‘shallow’”
If it’s going to be a marriage? Mom was absolutely correct. See above.
“Nice people, but since I really didn't want to have to fuck them, we weren't going to end up in long-term relationships, and now it's too late, I'm too old to actually land someone I consider a hottie.”
If you didn’t want to fuck them even at the start, I agree this is deal killer. I wonder why you were fucking them in the first place? The age-out aspect you raise is on my mind as well. I know I could have landed something decent 10-20 years ago, now… I suspect not.
“I started to feel instead like I had dodged a bullet.”
In a way you did, even in the best possible outcome. Marriage is generally a huge pain in the ass, expensive, inconvenient, and results in less sex over time. You are tied to a person who grows to be very different than what they first present as, even in the best-case scenario. I often think that I could have dodged this bullet but instead fucked that up. Then I consider the kids, and I think it’s not so bad.
“What did I miss?”
The main thing you’re missing IMO is that traditional marriage is much more about partnership, estate building, and child rearing than sex. The fact that you’re still talking about how hot or not your potential mates were shows that you’ve missed a bit of the main point. Then again, early on in dating, any other male would have a similar issue.
“marriage is a crock”
Probably correct, but it is a crock that can be *somewhat* fulfilling depending on how you approach it. You could say the same thing about dating, religion, clubs, friendships, etc.
“I just rejected their woke relationships because I didn't want to fuck the uglier girls I was ‘supposed’ to be attracted to.”
I don’t really know exactly what you mean by “woke relationships” here. I’d be interested to hear more on that.
If you don't want kids, don't get married. There are some real advantages for marriage for child raising and few outside of it.
I personally feel like monogamy is stupid. Either be ethically non monogamous or don't commit.
I have an uncle who was cleaned out by a woman who married him for 10 years for a green card. Now he's in his sixties without much to his name, and thanks to liberal California, he needed to pay alimony for some time.
I'm politically conservative, but believe it or not it isn't front and center in offline relationships. My last few girlfriends haven't been American-born so they haven't had a complex about it. I have plenty of good faith, left-leaning friends (men and women) whom I respect and can have nuanced discussions with. In fact, I'd say I get along best with women who aren't overly political--angry conservatives can be just as draining as angry liberals. I have one (male) friend who works himself into a lather about anything.
That said, I would never date a woman who identifies as "woke" or "feminist." Gotta say, after 2020 it's been a lot harder to bang black American women who literally started off with "so do you like Trump?" or "why would you want to date a black woman?" OK, let's not start off this relationship with suspicion, or the presumption that I'm a racist.
I think part of the problem is that women are giving their most fertile and energetic years (18-35) either to "girlbossing" or to directionless partying. Then when they've realized that life isn't fulfilling, they aren't as attractive as they used to be, they might be jaded by the world, and they think NOW they'll find a guy to settle down with...only that handsome and rich 40-year-old wants her younger sister.
Marriage won't turn around until society actually places a value on it and children, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. If we wanted more kids, we'd engineer it into the tax code, promote conservative strains of religion which place more value on procreation, we'd make it a lot easier for women to be stay at home mothers. If anything culture and government are moving further and further away from that.
One of the nicest things about reading all the replies is to hear from a bunch of you, that you are constantly thinking about how good or bad off your PARTNER would be for any of a number of choices. Leaving her, or not leaving her, or staying with her even though her looks decline, etc., it's always about, would I be ruining or improving ANOTHER person's life, not just my own? There's a lot of good comments from several of you that go in that direction.
One of the many things I managed to leave out of my first post here, while discussing the times when I was dating women I wasn't fully sexually attracted to at the outset, was the same awareness on my own part. It was a nasty thing for me to do TO THE GIRL. It wasn't just that I was cutting myself short; it was also, that I was cutter HER options short, by preventing her from having a partner who really valued her. (Somehow I missed making this statement in my first post.) Lots of you are thinking of the other person in that manner, with whatever reasonable conclusions. Like, maybe I personally shouldn't be married at all, because it wouldn't be good FOR HER, because I'm so looks-centric (though, I'd say I'm not, but my first post does sound that way, it's just not representative of all my concerns). Or, in any of a number of other ways, you mongers are surprising me by having the wife's or girlfriend's position foremost in your minds. I guess I assumed the worst, that mongering men (we are all at TUSCL, after all) would be all Club-Hombre about it, the woman's well-being be damned; but you aren't, so, my fault, for having wrong assumptions. Good on y'all!
Another generalization is that people are recognizing, over and over, the weaknesses of the current STYLE of marriage that we have going. Mostly North American, mostly Western, mostly college-educated, mostly post-Industrial. Some with happier interactions make it happen with non-Western women, for example. Others of you have managed to stand outside of typical "adjusted" (using the term pejoratively, to mean, "you adjust your desires to instead play culturally approved roles") North American materialist marriage. Either you dislike that kind of marriage and therefore don't enter into it; or, you manage to make your marriage operate in a non-"adjusted" manner as best you can despite cultural expectations otherwise, or you figure out some other solution. Several of you agree that materialism or consumerism is a major culprit of damage to partnerships.
One inquiry was about my use of the term "woke relationships." Yeah, that's poor wording. I just was trying to reference the idea of trying to date people whom the politically-correct establishment of liberal feminists would insist were the "right" choices, rather than going for women I was attracted to. I meant, that in college and grad school I made the mistake of trying to have relationships with partners that supposedly would have been good for me on paper but whom I didn't have a spark for. And the reason that the spark was lacking, was, that even in my late 20s, I just didn't want to have sex with these women because (so I thought at the time) they weren't sexy enough. That might have been simply my instincts telling me something -- maybe they WERE sexy women, in the eyes of other men, but I was sensing some other signals that suggested they shouldn't be partners for ME -- or, probably just as likely, that was me trying to "force" a relationship to happen. She was available, interested, but unappealing. I was "supposed" to be a good honest boring submissive feminist man and not judge her by her looks. That's all I meant by the terminology "woke relationships," that I was acquiescing to the politically-correct demands of my peer group at the time, by eschewing more "natural" instincts to instead try to have relationships that would have been "approved" by the professors of Women's Studies. So to speak.
Another point I could make about that. At the time, when I was mistakenly engaging in these dead-end options, I probably was doing so out of desperation. Those were the best partners I could get! (In fact, if you can find ancient posts of mine here or elsewhere on the mongering internet, you'll see me saying that the reason I go to strip clubs, is that this is the only means of access to attractive women that I have. Lacking hot civilian partners, I felt "forced" to get access to hotness through paying for it. And wow did I resent that fact. I felt utterly controlled and abused by the hot, attractive women I knew in civilian life. They were lording it over me, denying me access to pussy, and that HURT BAD.)
At the time, I could NOT figure out why women were rejecting me a lot. I reasoned that I was a good catch, I read "The selfish gene" and understood evolutionary psychology (so I wrongly thought), I had high markers for a variety of desired traits (fitness, visual appeal, reliable stable male friends, good family relationships, high potential income, high intelligence signaling, "local fame" and leadership positions) but I was just not getting even to first base. With anyone that I as attracted to. Hence, dating the women I was NOT attracted to.
Only many years later did I realize that there were probably two very obvious, very simple, solutions to the problem. One was, that I should have STOPPED being so damn nice to them. At the time, my poor logic told me (wrongly) that because they were rejecting me, it must have been because I was not nice enough. I reasoned that I wasn't being enough of a milquetoast, so I needed to be even MORE pathetic and "nice." If only Jordan Peterson and the internet had existed at the time, I probably would have figured it out pretty quickly and played a rather more aggressive, less mewling and soft-sided role, and probably would have gotten benefit from that change. It was the 80s and 90s, there was no internet. I got nicer and nicer and nicer, to a fault.
The other problem was, probably, that I wasn't being rejected at all. When the women said, "no," they meant, "please chase after me, I enjoy the manipulative gamesmanship and want you to prove your interest." I had no idea that such a thing existed! (Again, no internet.) In the face of the feminist mantra "what part of NO don't you understand?", chanted all over campus, I (probably sensibly, but, again, wrongly) understood that when she said "no" she meant "no forever, now go away or I'll call the police." She didn't. She meant "yes probably, if you play your cards right, but I have to say 'no' to keep up appearances and make you chase me." I had NO FRICKIN' IDEA!! Yeesh rather slow of me hunh?
Those two new awarenesses -- summarized by the concept, "please, MAN UP and stop deliberately being more and more of a weakling!" -- were actually not difficult for me to implement at all, once I conceived of them. But I didn't know those concepts in the least, until I was about 50 years old, at which point I randomly hit the man-o-verse (mentioned by others in this thread) on the internet. I think it was fast-seduction-dot-com that got me first thinking about it. The most sad thing isn't that I went about it all wrong, though that is a bit sad; the most sad thing is, that the masculinity was quite natural for me, and it wouldn't have been much of a difficult sell, if only I had implemented it much sooner in my life. I'm left to wonder, where the hell were the masculine males in my life who could have aided me a bit when I was a fledgling trying to figure out these signals? I recall whining about it to parents and cousins but all I ever heard back from them was, "stop complaining, we're sick of hearing about it," and I didn't know any better way to ask for help. So I didn't end up getting any help.
Where would help have come from? Most people, so the myth goes, will have cagey ol' Uncle Mort who tells the teenage boys a few stories and the boys therefore clue in and turn into men who aren't utterly misunderstanding the whole premise of the game. Mort says, "no no, don't be AROUND her all the time. Arrive, make her laugh, and DISAPPEAR." Mort (or is it Saul? Harry?) says, "no no, you are being nice. She SAYS she wants nice, but really she wants a BAD BOY." Mort says, "no no, whatever you do, don't let her think she can answer 'no'. Don't say, 'would you like ...". Say, 'how are we going to continue this?' There isn't a chance for her to say no." Mort isn't necessarily a master at seduction, he's just an advocate for masculinity. If your dad is an office worker, Mort is a manual tradesman. If the person who raises you is a school teacher, Mort is a dropout earning a fortune working on oil rigs.
I really resent the absence of an Uncle Mort from my life. I am vaguely sympathetic, but sometimes also chagrined, at the fact that the women so grossly misled me, but that's the game, they didn't make it up, they just play it. But the fact that I wasn't clued in to the game, until well after I was no longer of the right age to play it? That really miffs me. I feel somewhat cheated.
So this thread really marks a type of change in my perceptions. I thought for a long time that it wasn't fair that I had been left out of dating people that could eventually potentially grow into longer-term commitments. And I wanted that committed relationship, maybe just because I thought I was "supposed" to have it. Now, I'm changing my mind, finally, and realizing that what I missed, has just as many disadvantages as it might have advantages.
Perhaps because I'm so clueless about relationships, I don't really belong in one. I couldn't figure out for myself, until literally thirty years later than many people come to it, that Uncle Mort might have something intelligent to say. I wallowed in over-nice milquetoast, never reading from even the most salacious hinting, that the girls might indeed be interested. I have no "sniffer" for that sort of thing. So, although I did once resent the fact of being left out of the game, I'm slowly realizing, maybe I also dodged a bullet by not letting that game entrap me into something I wouldn't have wanted.
Well, TLDR ...
May sound harsh but it’s true. Then there are the career type go getter types which are a pain in the ass to date, because their fundamental psychology is they want to compete with men or just hate men.
I don’t want to out myself, but I make a comfortable living, have a high income, and am decent looking. If we were living in another time, where women were more incentivized to get married, I’d find a 25ish woman and do it. Unfortunately they don’t exist outside of sugar dating which is just prostitution light anyway.
The other problem is age gaps are shamed in our society. Look at how they pile on to Leo for dating 25 year olds. If some of these girls were smart, they’d say to hell with what society thinks and marry an older successful man who is stable and can provide a good lifestyle.
Some strippers and sugar babies think this way, but they totally fail at it because they are continuing to whore themselves out and think nothing is wrong with that. Well, a man has to trust you, and there’s no way for a man to trust you less than when you’re grinding on other men or worse servicing other men. Having several ex boyfriends who are complete dregs of society doesn’t inspire confidence. Neither does expectations that are totally fucking bonkers.
Since the dating game is so messed up and I can afford it, I simply find dancers or sugar babies I like to keep me satisfied. It’s like having a girlfriend without the headache, although even going this route I’m super picky at who I see. Most dancers are gross to be honest and unsafe. I’m talking drug use and STDs, but if you screen properly with some ground rules you can find some good ones.
I wish the culture supported strong marriages and families, but outside of ultra religious communities (Orthodox Jews, Amish, Trad Catholics, Mormons) it doesn’t. Those communities have their own issues since you have to follow things in a cult like fashion. That’s not for me, I can’t lie to myself that way.
I was never into the "feminist" view of relationships, but being raised very, very Catholic, I saw sex and desire as bad. I went on maybe two dates in college, and I'm not sure the lady would have called them "dates." I saw sex as something men had to deceive from women. By the time I had a girlfriend, she was trying to "lock me down" after a few months and I wanted to play the field like I hadn't before. And I did.
I was also a severe loner growing up who preferred playing video games in the parents' basement or studying to traditional "social" events. My dad was not a very social person, he liked watching a movie in the living room with a beer in hand over any kind of party. My parents rarely went on what one might call a "date," and I didn't have an "Uncle Mort." Closest was my uncle that I mentioned above that I didn't interact with much, and eventually got cleaned out. College, I kept to myself. It was my first strip club visit on my 22nd birthday, complete with a friend buying me a lap dance, that opened my eyes to a world of possibilities. I wouldn't say I was "addicted," I had times I'd club every week and times I didn't go for 2+ years, but I was definitely a fan.
Bring that together I'm what a friend calls a "hardened bachelor." I like my life and am set in my ways. I like my space, my freedom, and my cash. I don't chase, if she wants me to "try harder," I'm going to wish her well. When I date, I don't want to waste anybody's time...in my 18 years of actively dating (like I said, late bloomer!) I've spent about 20% of that in committed relationships. I've been on a few hundred first dates, which led from anything from 30 minutes over coffee and literally saying "nice to meet you, my cat is lonely, gotta go" to unloading inside her. But still haven't found anyone I'm willing to forsake my "hardened bachelor" ways for. I'm aware she might not exist.
And dating has gotten really shitty in the last few years. Lots of entitlement mentalities. I had one girl (22 year old hot AA), after a few text messages, literally say "I've been in a car crash, can you send me some money?" I told her to call her insurance and they'll pay for it. Five seconds later, she says "no they won't, I need you to CashApp me." I asked her location and sent her directions to the nearest Bank of America. She said "then stop talking to me." OK, entitled bitch.
I used to rake off online dating but it's fallen off a cliff; you can still find good ones now but there are a billion damaged goods or scammers. Some of them have ungodly long lists of criteria (must make $250k+, must own 2 cars of which one is a luxury car, must have 6 pack abs, at least an 8 inch penis, and a body count of 3 or less (LOL!)), meanwhile they have 6 kids with 4 baby daddies and say they won't fuck until they have a ring on their finger. Others are scammers--particularly native-born Chinese women with overly touched up photos. Look up the "pig butchering" scam, you get more of those than actual people. Some of them are horrible freaks who insist you're a bigot if you won't suck a non-op trans "woman"'s dick.
So put all this together, and my parents (who have been together, faithful and devoutly Catholic all my life) are resigned to my cat as their grand "child." I would love to be able to conform to societal expectations of marriage/family/kids...maybe I don't know what I'm missing on kids, and I figure if I don't have kids by 50 I'm not even going to pursue it...but I've always been rebellious (at least after shaking the Catholic guilt). I'm a bit of an asshole. I've called out bullshitting priests and ministers in front of their congregation. I've called out CEOs in front of all-staff meetings. I can put up a pleasant facade for a bit, but the ornery bastard always comes out before long.
LOL, now that I've said all this, I'm probably going to meet a nice girl at Whole Foods, ask her father's permission to date and marry her, and crank out enough kids to make a Mormon blush. There's an old saying that if you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
I'm inclined to agree the online memes and commentary about how men who are less than 8 out of 10 in the dating market to be utterly invisible non-existent people to women. It might actually be worse in some localized instances, but directionally, I find this to be true.
First, as many have mentioned, the proportion of women that are outright ineligible for marriage has skyrocketed. I'm talking about ones where you don't need to think at all, it's comically obvious as soon as you glance at them or hear a sentence or two about who they are or what they've been up to. For simplicity's sake, let's call these the "True negatives" (as in, true, they're absolutely not marriage material).
Second, even worse, the number of women who signal that they're marriage material but absolutely are not has also gone up. A.k.a. the false positives: looks like marriage material, but are not in reality. This includes the massively faked redemption arc born-again-jesus bullshit that they pull at around 30 or almost 40 if they're slow. These ladies either learn to advertise or act out a certain persona so that the light reflects just right off of them. I'd argue that this is actively malicious compared to the first category above, as at least those women haven't made it their life's mission to deceive a sucker into marrying them.
Third, even if you do chance upon a girl that's not either of the two categories mentioned above (a true positive, getting awfully rare as a % of the total population of marriage-age women), the current cultural climate seems to have multiple avenues for encouraging her into to choose the life of a divorcee.
Throw in the divorce laws and fiscal penalties, and it all looks like a steaming pile of garbage. Or at least to me, it does.
Net-net, if you add up the upkeep, opportunity cost, and potential looming financial risks, not an awful lot of women make this whole marriage thing look remotely viable. Unless, of course, you value having your own children immensely, to the point that it more than offsets all of the obvious negatives that we've all been bleating about.
For now, I think I'm also in the camp where I'll rely on a patchwork of less-than-ideal substitutes for the real thing.
Maybe I should be worried, but living this way has been surprisingly pleasant. Then again, I'm one of those average guys that's alright with his life. Neutral day-to-day living has inherent value to me. It's just not some epic life that can be used as social media marketing material.
Most women (vanilla relationships) don't seem to add any extra value. They just cost me.
No, she doesn't really know that I club.
and maybe this was touched upon by some here but the psychological elements of even a ltr relationship let alone a long marriage far outweighs sex stuff. guys always have to come up with new ways to keep the initial sparks of strong attraction flowing. and if that starts to wane the guy still has to keep that flow going to even maintain a steady level of tolerance. like i said it's a big fucking job.
“number of women who signal that they're marriage material but absolutely are not has also gone up. A.k.a. the false positives: looks like marriage material, but are not in reality. This includes the massively faked redemption arc born-again-jesus bullshit that they pull at around 30 or almost 40 if they're slow”
I laughed at this. The number of these types is increasing exponentially. Having realized that being a whore fails to get them anything but the dregs of society (look at who strippers date, pimps, drug dealers, ex-cons) they find Jesus and try to find a guy they can deceive.
I recently went on a date with one and wasn’t buying her bullshit for a minute, but I was curious about her game and I spotted it immediately. Now the women in here can call me a hypocrite for going to strip clubs, yet I’ve never visited a club while in a relationship, ever in my life.
I told one of my dancers friend about the Jesus girl and her first response was “She’s totally full of shit, she’s a closet whore wants to date a good man now”
They can’t even fool other women. Hilarious.
Sorry, but entitled much? She doesn't want to be what you want, just like you don't want to be what she wants. So make the best of being single. Better that the genes for whinniness and self-pity get skimmed from the gene pool anyway.
I've heard all the "logic" about why a man is entitled to a woman who's less of a whore than he is. Fine, if you want to drive a hard bargain, that's the way of the world. But, please, spare me the sanctimony. And face up to it, you got to find a weak person if you want them to accept a hard bargain. Perfect for breeding a litter of weak children with.
Going on 44 years. Kiss and caress every morning, every night, and usually in the hot tub every evening. Tell her every day I love, lust, and like her.
Sex is less frequent than our younger years,
but just as fun, some ways better 😉
We work at it. Life and living together takes effort, gotta be willing to let stuff go. And except that the other is a different person, not perfect, but worthy.
Got me a best friend. That accepts that I like to look at other women, sometimes fondle one on my lap.
I understand why some aren't the marrying type, but for me and her it's a good life.
I'm assuming OP's overly long TLDR screed listed all the things a single guy thinks you sacrifice in a marriage. And you do give up a lot. To each their own, but the tradeoff is worth it to me for the companionship and mutual support. Apart from the illicit pursuit of carnal pleasure and a secret cannabis habit, I've got my wife's back in every way, and I know she has mine. I don't think I've ever experienced romantic love in my longish life, but I can't think of anybody else I could stand to be with on a long road trip, except maybe one of my daughters (Just the one--not the other--I know from experience).
As you've seen in thread after thread on TUSCL, if you can take something simple like getting a stripper to please you for money and make it complicated...imagine something like two people contorting their life expectations into a marriage.
For other guys here strippers, massage, FKK clubs are a substitute for a wife, not an adjunct. We're different.
I will play along and comment on your discussion.
You don’t have to choose between being married or not if you can “afford it”…
Remember
“In this country, you gotta make the money first.
Then when you get the money, you get the power.
Then when you get the power, then you get the women.”
~ Cuban refugee Tony Montana (Al Pacino) in the movie Scarface (1983)
I would refer you to Demosthenes (384 – 12 October 322 BC)
~ Greek statesman and orator of ancient Athens.
1. We have courtesans for the sake of pleasure.
2. Concubines for the daily health of our bodies, and
3. Wives to bear us lawful offspring and be the faithful guardians of our homes
In this list is the Greek view of woman in the classic age.
In today’s world Demosthenes would say:
We have:
1. High end escorts, centerfolds, actresses, models, Strippers (ITC OTC) etc that provide PSE/GFE for the sake of pleasure.
2. Mistresses/Sugar Babies/Concubines; etc, for the daily health of our bodies.
3. Trophy Girlfriends/Wives to bear us lawful offspring, and be the faithful guardians of our homes.
4. Realistic Sex Dolls/Gynoids/Fembots, and Internet Porn and Instagram/Onlyfans “Models”, for kicks-and-giggles”.
5. Street walkers and crack whores for when you are horny, drunk, high, depressed, bipolar or just plain stupid and crazy, poor and miserable and can’t afford anything else.
Historically It is the same all over the world…
I am lucky enough to live in a place in California where all of these “relationships” with women are possible and are happening all the time.
If you have the money and can afford it, buy it and enjoy it,
if you don’t have the money or you can’t afford it economically, mentally, morally, emotionally, physically, intellectually etc etc etc then don’t buy things you can’t afford…
Let’s be careful out there there.
:D
and here https://tuscl.net/discussion/84976#comme…
Hi skibum. Book Guy posted links to what looks like two identical posts by another TUSCLer who's been accused of being a bot (but probably isn't)...it was a joke.