discussion comment
17 years ago
Women cheat but less commonly than men. The only existing data is for married couples, but it persistently shows a significant difference -- about 15 percent of woman and 25 percent of men cheat. To me, far more compelling are these 2 facts. On all the sex dating websites men outnumber women 10 to 1. Second, almost the entire sex industry is geared toward men, not women. There are exceptions but they are rare. If women cheated as often as men (or had sex drives that match men) you would not see that imbalance. The free market responds to demand, and men have a much higher demand for sex.
I also think it is pretty obvious that testosterone correlates with the difference in sex drive. It is used as a treatment, in fact, for both men and women who have low sex drives. Show me someone with a really strong sex drive, and usually that person will have a high level of testosterone. And generally men have much higher levels of testosterone than women.
discussion comment
17 years ago
No, I'm smart enough to know what the outcome would be of that experiment. It wouldn't be pretty.
discussion comment
17 years ago
harrydave, it's not my fault the fight ended. I tried to keep it going, but David is too busy fighting off all the women irresistably attracted to his alpha male seed spreading. Poor guy.
discussion comment
17 years ago
David -- Here's a simpler experiment. Stop going to strip clubs, AMPs, and escorts. Just try to have sex with women to whom you never, ever pay any $$$$ whatsoever. Be very open to them all that you are married, and that you have no plans ever to leave your wife. Come back in a month and tell us how many different women you shagged. Bet it's going to be a pretty short list.
Wait! Here's an even better experiment. Tell your wife you've been shamelessly cheating on her for years. Then tell us how many minutes pass before she throws you out of the house. After all, since women are so attracted to cheaters, your wife's reaction will surely be to jump on your tool. She won't want to consciously, of course, but given her genetic predisposition, the chemistry will be so overpowering that she won't be able to resist you.
Bottom line: if women are attracted to cheaters, then (a) why do you pay for sex and (b) why do you hide it from your wife?
discussion comment
17 years ago
Harrydave -- you kinda dated yourself with the Howard Cosell reference. But still it was very funny.
discussion comment
17 years ago
I hesitate to carry on this discussion. Your arguments are so illogical and devoid of factual support that I am starting to wonder if this entire thread is a spoof. It was obvious from the start that you are have no background as a scientist. Now I am wondering whether you graduated from college.
A woman who mates with a nonmonogamous man gains NO genetic advantage. I am not missing any point. You are just talking nonsense. Her offspring are only the children she gave birth to; her offspring do not include the children other women give birth to. If you cannot understand that, then no one can help you. Indeed, if you cannot understand that, you obviously skipped high school biology. Your "argument" on this point is literally an incoherent sentence that consists of complete gibberish.
Pointing out that women are not naturally attracted to cheaters is not claiming that women are not influenced by genes. It is claiming that they gain no advantage by mating with nonmonogamous men.
Mating for life is not a late stage evolutionary device. Other primates do it (and they branched off from us millions of years ago). In fact, other mammals do it. Once again, your arguments are made without any apparent knowledge of the scientific record. With such a profound lack of interest in the scientific record, you resemble nothing more than the opponents of evolution, which is ironic given the nature of your arguments.
Your comments about abusive spouses are particularly stupid, and reveal how absurd it is to explain everything via genetic predisposition. You confuse strength with being an abusive spouse. But a strong mate is not an abusive mate, and an abusive mate is not a strong mate. Indeed, most men who abuse their wives are weak, pathetic losers -- the exact opposite of alpha males. Some women stay with abusive spouses for a host of reasons, none of which have anything to do with their genetic legacy. These are, indeed, the same type of reasons that cause women (AND men) to remain with spouses who are alcoholic, drug addicted, unemployed, irresponsible with money, mentally ill, chronically physically ill and -- yes -- impotent. Are you going to argue that those traits are all genetically advantageous too? Not everything can or should be explained based on inherited traits.
Your entire approach strikes me as singularly un-scientific. You have a conclusion you want to believe, and so you will adopt any argument -- however illogical or unsupported -- to defend that conclusion. A genuine scientific approach would call for an experiment. Here's my proposal. Post an ad with your photo and a positive description of yourself on match.com. In the ad, explicitly state that you are looking for a long term, monogamous relationship leading to marriage. At the same time, go to one of the sex dating web sites (pick your choice) and post the same ad with the same photo, but this time state clearly that you are just looking for a good time. If you are right, then you should get more responses to the second ad. I am betting you will be wrong. On match you will get a ton of women responding, assuming you are not fat, ugly, extremely old or post a really crummy ad (when I did a match ad I had dozens of emails within hours of posting). On any of the sex websites (where men outnumber women by something like 10 to 1, by the way), you will get almost no responses. Indeed, I will back up my bet. If you let me see both ads to verify that you are not cheating on the rules (e.g., that you use a decent photo and a good, positive self-description), I will bet you $1000 that you will get many, many more responses on match than you will on any sex dating website you choose.
But you won't take me up on the bet, I am sure, because you know in your heart women are not more attracted to cheaters. Proof? The women you are talking about are all sex workers to whom you pay money. If women really were attracted to cheaters, you wouldn't need to do that, ever. You'd get all the sex you need without ever visiting a strip club or paying an escort. We have a thriving sex industry in this country (indeed, all over the world, and since the dawn of time), precisely because for the vast majority of women they will only knowingly and willingly sleep with nonmonogamous men if they are paid.
discussion comment
17 years ago
I don't mind any woman drawing the line wherever she wants. It's up to the individual. But I think it's a little weird to label someone a "gentleman" who pays money to watch naked women dance, and label someone a "pervert" who pays money for sex. That distinction is a little too subtle for me.
discussion comment
17 years ago
I usually offer to buy them a drink without being asked. Guess that makes me a sucker, but I would do the same thing anytime I sat next to a woman at a bar. I don't find it to be burdensome and it seems like a normal way to break the ice.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Even if men are predisposed to cheat, you have no evidence that women are predisposed to be attracted to cheaters. A woman gains no genetic advantage by mating with a cheater. Her genetic material is not spread by the man's infidelity. Simply put, her eggs do not travel with his sperm. A woman will successfully carry forward her genetic material if she has offspring. It is not a dead end to mate with a monogamous man.
Most anthropologists believe, in fact, that it is an advantage for women to mate with monogamous men. Their genetic material will be carried forward, after all, only if their offspring live long enough to reproduce. That will more likely happen if her mate sticks around to help her raise the kids. While that is a debatable theory (like everything else in anthropology) there is clearly no genetic payoff for the woman in mating with a cheater.
Implicitly you seem to reason that attractive alpha male traits (strength, success, good looks) are associated with non-monogamy. But you offer zero evidence to show that is true. I am aware of no evidence to show that cheaters are more likely, for example, to be rich or successful.
Apart from your flawed theory, the balance of your evidence is stunningly weak. Anecdotes prove nothing, because we can always cite counter examples of women who dump their cheating SOs.
The fact that some women stay with cheaters does not prove they are genetically predisposed to do so. Women and men stay in bad relationships for a host of reasons. We have all heard of women who stay with violent abusive SOs. Does that mean women are chemically attracted to men who abuse them? What would be the genetic payoff of such a predisposition? Your argument is a classic example of confusing cause and effect. The sun rises every day in the east and sets in the west. Therefore the sun revolves around the earth. Nice theory but wrong.
discussion comment
17 years ago
With all due respect to the wisdom of the other posters (and I mean that sincerely, I think there is a lot of wisdom in their posts), I think it needs to be said that when the conditions are right you can fuck a girl on your very first visit to a club, and you can fuck her right there in the club. I don't think it is always true that you need to become a regular or spend lots of visits building up to it. I have fucked totally new girls ITC on the very first visit; it's happened repeatedly. It can be done.
While I wasn't there in the VIP room with you, every sign was that she was waiting for you to take it further: she put your hand on her breast; she let you rub her pussy; she rubbed your cock through your pants. If you say or do nothing more at this point, some women will just outright proposition you. But some will be afraid to do so, because of concerns that you are a cop. My guess is she was waiting for you to take the next step sexually (more rubbing and touching, kissing, sucking her tits, unbuttoning your pants, etc.). I think we all know how to proceed from 2nd to 3rd base with a girl. This really isn't any different, except it involves money.
What would have happened if you had done any of those things will depend on the club and the girl. If the club has an enforced ban on such activity, then there is nothing you can do. The girl will say no. You can then just ask her if she will see you OTC, and again the answer will either be yes or no. I agree with others that seeing someone OTC is a slow process that will not (and if you are wise should not) happen right away, until a level of trust is built up on both sides.
On the other hand if the club allows such activity in the club, then it comes down to whether you have the right girl. Some will say no to sex; some will say they will only do you OTC. But some will simply respond to your moves by quoting a price.
Again I do not advocate pulling down your pants the minute you walk into the VIP room. But this girl gave you a clear green light to proceed ahead, and were I in your shoes I would have proceeded until I was told to stop. If she says "no" at some point, you've lost nothing. Another way to find out in advance whether the VIP room is worth the fare, of course, is to do a lap dance first.
Like any normal "date," of course you increase your odds by presenting well: being well dressed and clean; not getting drunk; being polite; etc. They are selling themselves, but they still would prefer a pleasant experience. I cannot tell you how many adult service providers have emphasized to me their desire for customers who are clean, well groomed and well behaved. They especially wish to avoid guys with unpleasant odors. I always brush my teeth right before I go to a club.
As for price, this is going to vary considerably depending on the region, but my experience is that FS ranges from 150 to 300 (not including any room price).
discussion comment
17 years ago
I certainly would rather be with dancers or escorts who are pleasant and intelligent, and because I am pretty good at making conversation, I gravitate naturally to the girls who are chatty and fun. But I would be kidding myself if I said that I why I hobby. I have more than enough social outlets in my life, and I can find engaging activities with friends and colleagues in a variety of settings.
I do this for the sex.
This is not a situation where hobbying is a substitute for a good marriage. I think I have a good marriage. It's not that I do not get sex, or do not get good sex, at home. I do. I'd say my wife and I fuck 3 to 5 times a week, and it is usually pretty good. This morning we did the trifecta, and after I pulled out of her ass I came in her mouth. I have known only a handful of adult service providers who will do some of the things my wife will gladly do.
So I suppose that will make me a shit in the minds of many of you, but the simple fact is that I like variety. I have a strong sex drive (people in my profession tend to have an abundance of testosterone), and I just like the variety of having sex with a number of different women. I've talked with other guys who sleep around and they express the same view -- they just crave sexual variety. If I see an attractive woman I just naturally (even if subconsciously) think about what it would be like to have her. (My occasional work trips to NYC are very distracting for this reason.) My wife jokes about how low my standards are, but it's true. I just love women, and find most of them sexually attractive, as long as they are not fat, extremely old or genuinely ugly. I am a person with large appetites, and that's one of them.
Is it an addiction? I think so, but it's an addiction I have had my whole life, and it has not prevented me from getting an education, having a career and raising a family. As addictions go, it's a pretty healthy one (not like drugs or alcohol), and as long as you are careful nothing untoward happens. It can be expensive, but no more so than a lot of other hobbies some guys pursue. And while this will again make some of you think I am amoral, I am not the least bit conflicted about it. I never sit there in the parking lot, I just walk on in, looking to score. When I am done I happily head on my way. I got over feeling guilty or weird about this a long, long time ago. Nor does it bother me to pay. It's a simple fact, women have a much lower (and much different) sex drive than men, so you will have to pay if you want to have casual sex with lots of different women.
Sorry to sound so matter-of-fact. But it doesn't bother me; it's part of who I am. One sad day my poor dick will fail me. Then I will have a lot of fond memories, and of course loads of extra time on my hands. Maybe I'll take up sailing.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Misterguy and godfatherstill: thanks for the clarification about Tony Soprano. I did not take it as an insult, I was just not understanding the reference.
As to the larger topic, personally I am persuaded by the recitation of the guidelines by Misterguy, and I am going to endeavor to follow that standard. I find particularly compelling the idea that I want a review that would be useful to a visitor in a hotel room who only has time to visit one club.
I will share something amusing with regard to how explicit one might be. I was overseas last week and went into a strip club. A dancer came up to me immediately and said, "want to go to the back room, it's 160 for a blowjob." Now that's being explicit!
discussion comment
17 years ago
I would be grateful if someone would explain the reference to Tony Soprano. I don't follow pop culture, so while I know it's a TV show, I don't understand the import of the reference. Thanks.
discussion comment
17 years ago
David, I completely understand what you are saying, which is why I never mention a dancer by name in that context. But I still find it useful to know what is available at a club, even if the dancer involved is not identified. If FS is available at all, it means it is at least tolerated, and if you go to that club you will run into the girls who provide it. But most of the reviews I have seen do not mention it at all. Does that mean it really is not happening, and the guys are getting nothing more than a simple lap dance? I find that hard to understand. I would not waste my time if that was all that was available. The minority of reviews that allude to some kind of extras do so usually in ways that are so vague as to be meaningless -- to me there's a pretty big difference between a HJ and FS. As long as you don't identify the dancer by name in the review (I agree with you on that point), I don't see the downside to writing a straightforward review.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Definitely it does not matter for me. There is no reason why you cannot have a sexual relationship with a lesbian. I once had a fantastic 4 month affair with a lesbian (while she had a steady girlfriend and I was married). She was absolutely wild in bed. I do not suggest she was so great because she was a lesbian, but clearly being gay did not prevent her from being a fantastic sexual partner.
Over the years I have had a lot of friends who are gay. The women I have known who are lesbians, almost uniformly, have had significant sexual experiences with men. Many of them have been married. I think saying you are a lesbian is less a hard and fast rule about sexual orientation, and more a general statement of preference.
And, let's face it, it is not hard to understand why many women (including those who do not call themselves lesbians) might be attracted to other women. First, I think we can all agree, women are beautiful to look at. Most women I know -- even those who are completely "straight" -- do not mind admitting that they find other women's bodies attractive. Look at most women'a magazines for example -- they mostly show pictures of other women, not pictures of men.
Second -- and while this sounds harsh, I still think it's true -- most men are pretty crummy in bed. They are usually selfish and just think about getting off. I have known a number of women to complain to me about men who cum too quickly, can't keep erections, fall asleep, won't engage in foreplay, won't go down on them for more than a few minutes, etc., etc. I think men on the whole (this is only a generalization of course) are poor lovers, and most women do not report being sexually satisfied by men. Women by contrast are usually focused on the other person, and giving that person pleasure. Plus, I hate to break this to everyone, but straight, bi or gay, most women do not get off especially on getting a dick in their pussy. Most women get the greatest sexual response from activities other than fucking. And it is a fact that a woman has the highest concentration of sexually responsive nerve endings on her clitoris and outer labia -- not in the interior of her vagina. So women are going to get more pleasure from having their pussies licked than from being fucked. I do not mean to suggest that women don't enjoy fucking. But all things considered a woman will probably have a better time in bed with another woman who is a skilled, unselfish and sensitive lover, than with a guy who is clumsy and incompetent, and has nothing to offer but his dick.
So the fact that a woman identifies herself as a lesbian is no problem for me, and it does not foreclose the possibility of a sexual relationship.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Well as my other posts state, it turns out Bobby and the other authors of cautionary notes were right. She is a junkie and, I tend to agree, would probably do anything to pay for her habit. Her boyfriend, in my book, actually turned out to be halfway decent, because he forcefully intervened to make sure I knew the truth. At any rate, all the signs of addiction proved to be correct. I hope Bobby is wrong, however, that all OTC encounters are fueled by a need for drugs.
discussion comment
17 years ago
I actually think there is a pretty fair distinction between most so-called "soft" drugs and so-called "hard" drugs. Chemically, the body simply reacts differently to typical depressants (like alcohol or pot) than it does to opiates and stimulants (like heroin or crystal meth). The former can be addictive (alcohol obviously being the best example), but usually not so nearly as devastatingly addictive as things like heroin and crystal meth. A crystal meth addict will be driven quickly to oblivion by their addiction (quitting work, stopping all normal hygiene, losing contact with family & friends, etc.). On the other hand, I smoked pot most of the way through college, and when I graduated, I simply stopped, without the slightest hitch. I think cigarettes are more addictive than pot; I'm not really sure pot is addictive at all. By contrast, I don't think someone could use heroin for 4 years and then just stop with no ill effects.
I realize these are distinctions in degree sometimes. But I am probably reluctant to make that big a deal out of pot smoking, particularly given the prevalence of alcoholism in our country, which probably causes more of a problem healthwise than pot. On the other hand, I would like to continue to steer clear of anyone using profoundly addictive drugs, like heroin or crystal meth, even if they are used "recreationally."
discussion comment
17 years ago
Don't worry, I won't be giving any more $$ to this person -- not even a dollar at the edge of the bar. I am not going to be responsible for helping to keep someone addicted. I feel pretty guilty that I was tricked by the drug into giving her anything at all.
The part that most amazes me (and, of course, it's just a comment on my own stupidity) is that I had absolutely no clue that this person was a junkie until the boyfriend told me. I knew she was lying about things, and I had a general sense of unease, but never thought drugs were the issue. It simply never crossed my dull mind that someone so sweet and pretty and nice could be a junkie. What a dummy.
The other amazing thing is how the evidence of the drugs was there in plain sight. All you had to do was look at her arms and the track marks were everywhere. The clubs are usually so fucking dark that I guess you can't really see what's going on unless you bring a flashlight with you. Still, it's pretty funny (in a perverse way) that a junkie can be dancing around with hardly a stitch of clothing on and your average patron doesn't notice the really, really obvious signs of major drug use.
I hope seeing what a moron I am makes the rest of you feel less stupid.
discussion comment
17 years ago
I'm sure this may not be the answer you are looking for, but I simply never ask, and instead let my hands do the talking. My theory is this. If the girl won't provide any extras, then she will not let me do things like put my hands on or near her pussy, won't let me suck on her tits, etc. It's sort of the same as in civilian life. If the girl won't let you feel her up, it's a pretty good bet she won't let you fuck her, right? If the girl is willing to do more, but only OTC, then my experience is that she will say so (e.g., I can't do this here, but let's meet afterward). If the girl is willing to fuck you right then and there, then she will already have a price in mind for admission. This kind of girl will respond to being felt up by quoting a price and telling you pretty much exactly what you can get for that price. There simply are some girls at some of these clubs who have made a firm decision to supplement their incomes through prostitution. Those girls have a price structure in mind. In my experience, it really is that simple. Bear in mind that I do not just grab someone's tit or ass. This is something I work up to gradually over time, which is going to require more than 1 dance. But within 2 or 3 dances you will know if you have hit a cul de sac or not.
The problem with verbally asking them what they will do for $$ is that to most girls you will sound like a cop. My experience is that they are going to be wary of any guy who openly says (in whatever coded language) how much for X, or will you give me X. I know a number of escorts who take the policy that the second the guy discusses performing a specific act, or mentions anything about money, the "date" is over. (But they have no problem with you plunking down a pile of money and taking off your clothes. They just don't want to talk about it.) Going way back in my history, I remember that one of the first times I picked up a streetwalker (in the 80s), before she discussed anything she demanded that I firmly place my hand on her behind. She felt no cop would openly feel up her ass on the street. Maybe it's a bad assumption, but the "extras" girls feel a little less wary of a guy who has some skin in the game.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Part of the original post seems to relate to health hazards of oral sex. This question comes up on these sites all the time. I am basing what I am about to say on CDC data.
The most serious STD, of course, is HIV/AIDS. However, there is simply no documented case of anyone getting HIV from oral sex. It is theoretically possible (e.g., you go down on a woman who is having menstrual bleeding, and due to oral surgery you also have open blood vessels in your mouth). However, it is my understanding that there is no documented incident of this ever occurring. (Part of the problem in sorting this out is that people with HIV often engage in other risky sexual behavior, and don't always report it.)
There are other STDs however. The biggest concern, in my book, is herpes. The problem with herpes is that it is viral, and that it can be with you for life. Typically in a club where things are kinda dark, you are not necessarily going to be able to tell if the girl has lesions on her pussy. You could get herpes from her mouth, too, but presumably you are going to be able to see her face in clear light before you start snogging her in the LD room. But you will not be getting a good look at her pussy until, well, until you are right there. And if the room is too dark, you won't know what you are putting your tongue on.
Don't get me wrong. I love daty as much as the next guy (probably more than most). And I have done some dumb things in my life. But I am glad I've never gotten herpes. That would really suck. So I would probably hesitate to eat pussy unless we were in a nice hotel room where I could turn on the light and make sure her vagina was free of any apparent lesions. (Sorry for being so graphic! lol)
And no, I would never fuck a girl without a condom. I pay enough child support, thanks.
discussion comment
17 years ago
The car accident stories remind me of an actual transcript from an actual trial. It went like this:
ATTORNEY: And when your husband woke up in the hospital, what were his first words?
WITNESS: He said, "where am I, Judy?"
ATTORNEY: And what was your reaction when he said that.
WITNESS: I was very upset.
ATTORNEY: And why is that?
WITNESS: My name's not Judy.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Two jokes in regard to fooling wives are as follows:
Man is out late one night with his lover. As he is leaving her, he asks to borrow some baby powder, which he proceeds to sprinkle all over his hands. When he gets home at 1 a.m., his now very angry wife is waiting for him. "Where have you been?!?" "Sweetheart, I won't lie to you. I've been having an affair with a beautiful young girl, and tonight I stayed late at her place, making wild passionate love." The wife looks at him suspiciously, and says, "let me see your hands." He sheepishly shows her his hands, covered in white powder. Now she's really angry. "Don't you lie to me, you've been bowling!"
Another guy was always getting in trouble with the wife for going out and getting trashed, and she swore she'd divorce him if he did again. One night he's carousing with his buddies, and he gets so drunk that he barfs all over himself. He's horrified, and says to his friends, "Good lord, what'll I do? When I get home, my wife's sure to know I got drunk again. She'll divorce me. I'm doomed." But his buddies calm him down and say, "look, it's simple. Stuff $10 in your shirt pocket. When you get home, just calmly explain that another guy barfed on you, and he paid you $10 to take your shirt to the cleaners." Satisfied with this plan, the still woozy man makes his way home. When he gets there, the Wife confronts him in his unsightly state, but he's ready for her and whips out the money with his explanation. But when she looks at the money, she says, "I don't get it, you said he gave you $10 to clean your shirt, and this is a $20." "Oh yeah," the man replies, "I almost forgot. He also took a shit in my pants."
discussion comment
17 years ago
Seriously?
discussion comment
17 years ago
Well, it's obviously tougher when the girls are that far away, and also I am not sure what you do for a living. My job has the benefit in that it's my own business, and I often have reasons to be on the road -- not overnight trips, but local travel. So I everytime I do travel for work, I make a point to call a lot from the road, so she will know I really am traveling, and I will also call to bitch about how bad traffic is, etc., etc. I try to create a general atmosphere where having to disappear for hours at a time makes sense. Without knowing much about your situation, this is where having a little strategic advance planning is probably key. So, let's say the girls you want to see are in location X. I would try to find a good, independent reason to go to location X on a periodic basis -- some special hobby you decide to pursue, some unique store you really like to visit, etc., etc. It has to be something, of course, that your wife will never be interested in doing with you. I knew one guy who would claim a periodic need to go into NYC to go so Sam Ash (a music store), because he was a guitar buff. He knew his wife would find this crashingly dull, and so would never tag along. The key is to actually GO to this innocent locations now and then (really only has to be once a month), and serve up to your wife abundant proof that you've been there. Now that you have your wife acclimated to the idea that you have to go to location X once a week, then 3 out of 4 times you can go see the girls, and even if disaster does strike (e.g., car breaks down), you have a perfect excuse.
The other option, of course, is to find a club buddy. You don't have to actually club with the guy, he just has to be willing to cover for you. If you are out with your best friend Bill, and he will vouch for you, then you can be doing all sorts of things -- bowling, going out for drinks or dinner, etc. -- and if you're questioned about it, you can say, "give me a break, I'm hanging out with my friend."
And again, I try to be diabolical about coming up with ways to throw her off. For example, sometimes I will go out with a female friend (not a dancer or escort), and I will make a big point of telling her -- even joking about whether she is jealous. This totally throws her off, because I have nothing to hide.
discussion comment
17 years ago
Lol. Luckily I am blessed with a profoundly unsuspicious wife, although I do everything I can to cover my tracks, and/or to throw her off scent, so to speak. My favorite trick is to deliberately create excuses to force her to call me at work, when I am in fact there, so that she will see repeatedly that when I say I am working late, I really am working late. I also put fake appointments on my electronic calendar, in case she ever decides to check it.