This is why successful, hard-working people don't declare all of their income. The rats called democrats steal it and use it to buy votes and power. I plan on soaking some firewood in fuel oil and burning it this weekend. Hopefully climate change kills every recipient before they spend a cent.
Has this been finalized? I heard it was just some debt, like $10k and for those at less than some income level.
I think it is great. People have been getting rich off the Reagan tax cuts, which are why we have this student loan system. Raise high income and large portfolio taxes to pay for this and bering these students back into the economic system.
SJG
^spoken like a true piece of shit who contributes nothing. Fuck over the poor and the blue collar? Fuck you bitch. Your organization and its members fall somewhere in-between cannibals and child molesters. Fuck you.
Title doesn't say it all. There are means tests. You can only get 20 grand max cancelled. I don't think Millennials and Gen-X/Zoomers got the same level of subsidies I got. They also got raped by much more bloated college administrations.
College students have been screwed. And the people who have raped them are the financializers playing in the securities and real estate ponzi scheme.
SJG
College has been subsidized so much its cost increases have outstripped anything over the last 40 years, even healthcare.
In return they've added layers on layers of non-academic administrators, and outsourced teaching to poorly paid adjuncts.
Now, with this moral hazard, it'll only skyrocket further.
And no, SJG, this isn't your mysterious "financializers." The money trail goes right from the government printing presses to the universities and right back.
Yes need to contain college costs, severely contain them.
Need to trim admin. And need to have good teaching. BUt problem, CSU San Jose faculty cannot even afford to rent here, even full tenure track people.
The financilizers are a layer of parasites which have added themselves on top, and both political parties are serving them.
Private colleges have let costs skyrocket and we want to trim this radically.
Public colleges it is not that bad.
FWIW, My Organization will run its own college and it will be low cost and mostly supervised independent studies. BUt we will try to have some core seminars, mostly Philosophy and Great Books stuff in the core seminars. But because it is current, we will have some of the key texts for Gender Studies and Racial Grievances too.
SJG
If the republican candidate is v2.0 of Dolt 45, my vote isn’t for sale. If we can elect a decent candidate in the republican primary, you can have my vote for $25, just be advised that I’d vote republican anyway and thanks to our electoral college my vote won’t count here in Maryland anyway.
Before your bulging veins explode, consider that credit card companies will often forgive part of your debt if you;re in over your head. Because they know they could lose it all if they drive you into bankruptcy. Of course, student debt isn't cancelled by legal bankruptcy. But if you're broke, you're broke. What are you going to put a lien on, when somebody's making under $30K? Their barely-running car, if they have one? Their job(s) are barely worth it before you garnish their pay. Just come out of the closet that you like having a stick up your ass because that's your sexual kink. You don't need to make even more people homeless to justify your stick.
Colleges have gotten too expensive and the government is cuplable. But we still want people to go to college and not be discouraged by the out of pocket costs or the prospect of debt. So what Biden has done is right, and only the first step.
SJG
college tuition should be $10,000 per year.instead, it’s $25,000 to $50,000 and up
1. The “Administrators” ( Diversity Czars, etc ) now have a budget larger than paying professors
2. Professors don’t teach.Or, if they do, it’s one course a semester. They are actually paid for “research” ( also know as wasting time ) and meetings.
3. Campuses are built out like huge country clubs and are marketed as an enjoyable 4 years to get indoctrinated.
4. Students aren’t expected to study, or meet high standards, so the Affirmative Action enrollees don’t get embarrassed.
"VWomen's Studies and African American studies majors"
We want people as broadly educated as possible. If those subjects resonate for people, so be it.
The idea that a college degree or major prepares you for a career is absurd.
SJG
Why don't we forgive $10,000 for anyone who took out a loan to go to a trade school, or took out a loan to start a landscaping service?
This is a slap in the face to the working class of all races, as well as the college educated that paid off their shit like responsible citizens.
"The idea that a college degree or major prepares you for a career is absurd."
Absurd to a whackjob who spends 30+ hours a week trolling a strip club website, is wisdom incarnate to the rest of us.
We people who contribute to society want others to follow suit, not dick off for 4 years and expect everyone else to pick up the tab.
Dragons, unicorns, vampires, winged pigs, SJG's Organization. In descending order of likelihood of ever coming to pass.
"Why don't we forgive $10,000 for anyone who took out a loan to go to a trade school, or took out a loan to start a landscaping service?"
That is not out of the question for the trade schools, but I say not for the business. Making such schooling free, like in our community colleges.
No, it is punch in the faces of the financializers, who have raped, pillaged, and plundered because of the Reagan tax cuts.
People were duped into college and loans because they were presented with no other options.
We made good with our WWI veterans with the pay equalization act, commonly called the Bonus. BUt it took a cross country protest and them being routed by MacArthur and Patton.
Now we are making good with our college students, starting to.
SJG
"The idea that a college degree or major prepares you for a career is absurd."
It is absurd to anyone who tries to build a real and viable career.
"We people who contribute to society want others to follow suit, not dick off for 4 years and expect everyone else to pick up the tab."
Financializers suck the blood out of our society. People study in college what resonates for them. They understand that career prospects may vary. THey should not be saddled with high debts.
My Organization will be build around Stripper Grade Hotties that love cock. But as it is real and involves lots of other things, including economic things, it takes time.
SJG
^ hey SJG do you think they should cut me a $10,000 check since I worked my way though college and never took a spring break while the jackoffs with $50k student loans went to Cancun every single year on loans. The same buttfucks played video games all day and smoke weed at night paid for by student loans.
Never heard of that on the table. But listening to your posts you sound like a real dumbfuck in life, not like someone who has ever applied himself to trying to learn anything except how to be an idiot.
SJG
"Before your bulging veins explode, consider that credit card companies will often forgive part of your debt if you;re in over your head."
@ilbbaicnl - A credit card company writing off some debt means they agree to accept less. Biden's student loan "forgiveness" means the debt is just passed on to the taxpayers, without their concent. The schools and the lenders don't "forgive" shit, so your analogy means nothing.
"Biden's student loan 'forgiveness' means the debt is just passed on to the taxpayers, without their concent.[sic]"
With all the bullshit pork in the federal budget, the sugar subsidies, the aid to foreign countries, the raises Congress gives themselves, the etc., etc. ad nauseum, <em>this</em> is the hill people are gonna die on...
Credit card debt is not forgiven in bankruptcy nor is student loan debt. Those two exceptions were brought to you by then Senator Biden in 2005 legislation he got passed. Coincidentally Delaware is home to a few credit card companies.
"credit card companies will often forgive part of your debt if you;re in over your head"
Never heard of this.
Taxes and who is elected POTUS is with the voters consent.
SJG
The middle class gets far more government benefit than poor people ever do.
And Shailynn if you really want my opinion of your, reading your posts for years now, I think you are a total dumbfuck who squanders his time and money, squanders his life.
So you think some people did not work hard enough in college? I don't think so.
SJG
In My Dreams
[view link]
"People were duped into college and loans because they were presented with no other options."
What a sack of shit. You mean you never saw a job ad for anything else? A military recruiting poster? The Peace Corps? City Year?
You're 18 years old when you go to college, you can sue and be sued, you can sign a mortgage or car loan, you can receive the death penalty or life without parole for certain crimes.
Yet this one decision deserves a mulligan.
"People study in college what resonates for them. They understand that career prospects may vary. THey should not be saddled with high debts."
Show me the specific part of the U.S. Constitution that entitles one to "study in college what resonates for them" on the taxpayer nickel. These are just your fantasies about what an ideal society should look like, liberated from all mathematical constraints.
Gobstopper as a manager in a credit card company's collections department I can tell you that most credit card debt is dischargeable in bankruptcy. The main times that it isn't is if you take a cash advance or make large luxury purchases within the few months leading up to filing bankruptcy or you use the card to pay for things like tax debts or student loans that are not dischargeable under bankruptcy law.
As for student loans being cleared by Biden, while I will benefit to the tune of almost $18k I don't feel that it is fair. I knew what I was doing when I took out my loans and so did anyone else who took out loans for college, or at least they should have unless the colleges were admitting people that were too stupid to understand how a loan works but that is a completely different problem.
I made the choice to take out loans for school knowing full well that it would take me a couple of decades to pay them off because it was the only way I could afford to go to college. Why did I do it? I did it because I thought it was a better alternative than a lifetime of low paying and physically destructive work that I had seen everyone else in my family go through. My father is a diesel mechanic and my mother works on a factory assembly line. My older brother and most of my father's side of the family are all mechanics and most of my mother's side of the family works as manual laborers in the construction field. I knew that I didn't want to tear my body up doing anything like those trades so I racked up almost $70k worth of debt that over the past 18 years I have paid down to just under $18k based on my last statement. Since I make under $125k and received Pell grants that full remaining balance could be wiped out which would certainly help me financially.
I don't think that it is the least bit fair though to think that people like my parents, brother and cousins are going to get stuck paying off my student loans when they chose not to go to college and have instead worked long hours in physically demanding jobs to pay their bills.
If this was going to somehow be a cure all to stop generation after generation from continuing to go into debt to pay for college I could possibly be convinced to get on board, but it won't. Tuition is still way too high and rising quickly at public universities. The only way the government can use money to fix the problem would be to increase funding for public universities and put a cap on tuition at those universities. If they want to spend $300,000,000,000 that would be a good place to start.
I also don't see how the POTUS has any legal authority to spend $300,000,000,000 of taxpayer money to do this without Congress passing any legislation to authorize it since the Constitution gives all of the power related to federal spending to Congress and not the executive branch. Even Pelosi said last year she didn't believe Biden had the legal authority to do this.
In the I am glad that I went to college, but I wish I had never started law school before changing my mind and withdrawing before my 3rd year after realizing it wasn't how I wanted to spend my life. That would have saved me about $45k worth of debt. I also wish I would have worked full-time and went to school part-time like my little sister did. It took her 7 years to get her bachelor's degree but she paid her way through without any student loans. Clearly I wasn't as smart as she was about it.
We want to do right by people who go to college, and we want people considering college to see this so that they will do the same.
Our economic system is totally unfair, but at least on this item we are starting to do what is right.
SJG
Tetra, not everyone wants to be blue collar. Peace Corp can discharge most college debt I read. But still not for everyone.
College is still presented as the doorway to the middle-class and do self-respect.
We want young people of today to go to college, as these people are our future.
SJG
"College is still presented as the doorway to the middle-class and do self-respect."
And _that_ is the problem. It used to be the case, now a proliferation of useless degrees and majors and subpar schools means that notion is a relic.
We need to elevate non traditional self education, working with your hand, and entrepreneurship as every bit as respectable as college.
It is not useless degrees. If those resonate for someone they are extremely useful.
What has failed is economic opportunity, opportunity for careers, and that is because of advanced industrial and information technology, and because of Reaganitus cutting down government jobs.
Well you see on this board that some like Shailynn spit on working people.
These things are good, but they also used to, because of unions, open the door to home ownership. Today homeowner ship is out of reach for many college graduate professionals, as well as for blue collar and many small business operators.
How big of a middle-class you have depends on one thing, how high your top tax rates are!
Without steep top tax rates, our society splits into the very rich and the very poor, and the very rich use social affinites to get all the money, and they use their money to inflate the stock and real estate markets.
SJG
"If those resonate for someone they are extremely useful."
No. A degree that costs $250,000 in debt that resonates with someone but returns not a time would have been better pursued as a hobby, not a degree. Even as I pursued writing as an undergraduate, I did so off hours while attaining a degree in a hard science at a top university. That is the right way to do it.
Under no economy is there a natural market for racial and gender or LGBTQ grievance study jobs. They add nothing to society, only create harmful rifts between Americans. They should receive no subsidies whatsoever.
The problem is the corporatization of universities. And the value of an education being viewed as the profit the rich can make off you for having it.its about society knowing prices but not values
This was part of Biden's election platform and he won. He is delivering on a campaign promise.
Some conservatives probably didn't know how to react to this until they watched Fox News.
>Biden's student loan "forgiveness" means the debt is just passed on to the taxpayers, without their concent.
I voted for Biden and I consent. And this is true for a majority of Americans.
I think we all have it wrong on the best place to get young pussy. You could have an advanced degree in some useless study and have a tenured job as a senior professor. Once you are there, you just have your Student Assistant teach the class. But you get all the young college girls coming to you asking what they can do for a better grade. All the while, the Uncle Joe is providing you your golden parachute.
I know this is gonna come across as another boomer “get off my lawn” post but this is an awful life lesson to teach these young kids
I graduated with zero student debt. I worked my ass off in hard, but well paying factory jobs each summer. I didn’t go traveling to Europe, I worked. I didn’t go to grad school until I worked long enough to fully fund my studies. My parents were working class, never went to college, so they contributed almost zero, except for allowing me to live at home rent free during the summers
Study, grab some scholarship money, there’s lots of small scholarships out there. Be a man and pay your own way
Be smart in your choice of schools. Don’t choose an expensive liberal arts college if you can’t afford it.
There are plenty of state universities where you can get a quality, affordable education. Any Big 10 school, U of North Carolina, U of Arizona, UVA, U of Georgia
Biden's cancellation of debt is perfect for young college kids - they now have learned you can borrow money and not repay it; you can major in useless things and live off the dime of taxpayers; your word and signature are meaningless; other people solve your mistakes for you nd on and on, but it will be 20 years before they truly understand that their "lifestyle" and the politicians they elect will not help them when those who work hard, work long hours, pay their debts and save, die off. My response is to just manage my work cash better so my tax bill is lower.
I told my kids to pay off their student loans - it’s the responsible thing to do and it will be good for your credit rating. They did.
I was wrong. My new advice will be the government is not to be trusted. You owe it nothing.
"This was part of Biden's election platform and he won. He is delivering on a campaign promise."
"I voted for Biden and I consent. And this is true for a majority of Americans."
You don't seem to have a great idea how this works. Having voted for him gives you no special privileges, nor does being a "majority." The constitution is clear in that it doesn't give the president power to spend. Nancy Pelosi and even Biden himself until recently admitted that.
Hopefully, this unlawful order goes through the courts and gets struck down.
I've come to the conclusion this taking of money from productive people and giving it to others by corrupt politicians in return for votes or campaign donations is not going to stop and, once the parasites outnumber the producers, it will lead to an economic crisis followed by something worse than the Great Depression. There is no political solution here. We put the supposed conservative Trump in office and he didn't cut government spending and added seven trillion dollars to the national debt. If you look at history, every great nation eventually declines. Why should the U.S. be any different? Some day after we hit bottom things will start getting better.
You guys need to calm down, the impact of this on the economy will be minute, this proves only one thing elections have consequences and this is one of them, the party in power gets to pick the priorities, if you refuse to work with the party in power don’t get your panties in a bunch when they do shit you don’t like, if y’all were to work across the aisle there might be a consensus but with this highly partisan structure that’s in place expect to see more of this and the same from the Rs if and when they win an election.
Until the system gets changed I don’t expect things to get any better.
320 billion to buy votes from the assholes who claim democracy is in danger. Sue that dirty rat Joe Putin Biden. Ben Franklin was right about what would kill America: progressives and their fucking shit for brains loser base.
If your not doing it yet, invest in a good, like-minded tax accountant and pay as little tax as legally possible. Put planning and work into reducing your tax liability. It’s worth the investment and it’s the right thing to do.
Putting aside the issue of whether it is right to cancel the debt or not, I have a question for those who support this decision.
What gives the POTUS the ability to spend that kind of money without Congress allocating it? Was the money that POTUS just committed to spending authorized by Congress in some way that I am unaware of?
Both parties spend a ton of money on priorities that I don't agree with and I have resigned myself to the fact that it will continue to happen. However, usually it requires a majority of Senators and a majority in the House of Representatives to vote on authorizing it. My understanding of the Constitution was that Congress has to authorize any federal spending.
^ Don't just blame the pandemic, this has been going on for the last 4 or five administrations, they really don't need an excuse they see this money as their own, both sides refuse to recognize the taxpayers, the only money they ever recognize is their donors.
"What spending ? It is cancellation of some debt."
@wld4tatas, no. The money has been distributed and spent (on tuition, etc). There is no unringing that bell. Unless the money is clawed back from the colleges on whom it was spent, the debt can only be transferred to the back of the American taxpayer.
Most screwed is the multi-ethnic blue-collar taxpayer who either wasn't "smart enough" or didn't want to sit in a classroom for four years.
This also furthers the moral hazard that colleges can keep increasing tuition because there will always be a willingness to pay.
Throughout the 1920s, conservative Republicans controlled both the Congress and the Presidency. They made sure the "free" market ruled, and not a dime went to "parasites". Leading to the Great Depression.
Like they say, those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
^^ Money is paid to the debtholders, and new debt is created to be held by the American taxpayers, by the accounting of it.
Money comes out of the Treasury. It is on the courts to stop this madness.
The first comment from Tetradon was exactly the truth.
It’s an expensive vote buying attempt. I doubt it is for Biden, as he won’t be a candidate in 2024. It’s attempting to turn the tide of a democratic exodus in the 2022 midterms.
This is not fixing the problem. The colleges must attempt to control administration costs. The college presidents and administrators have lost their direct involvement with daily university life. They are more interested in their office remodeling projects - and their next vacation - or the new home they are purchasing.
Costs must come back to reality.
I saw an interview with one college president where he was asked about the cost of his job university in comparison to the job salaries that graduates could expect. He went into a long winded explanation of how we are building a rounded person and he was uncomfortable with a direct comparison because it doesn’t provide a full view of the graduate and their college experience.
They believe this crap. It is a way to sell others who think they are elites on the uncontrollable costs of education.
I have two girls in college - and I began saving for their college when they were infants. I am fortunate to have the savings to cover the costs.
As usual, instead of doing the hard work, Biden has simply written a check.
Ilbaccini is full of shit on the depression. The depression was caused by greedy people borrowing money to buy stocks and then not being able to pay it back when the market dropped, leading to a free fall. Well settled fact. The loss of wealth caused the depression, not governmental monetary policy. The same factors have cause the Savings and loan crisis, the stock market meltdown and Obama fucking things up. Stop arguing with an idiot like Wild tatas who seems to actually believe that money goes on trees.
@Cashman
No question they’re trying to buy votes for the midterm election, but what else is new, Trump did it, Obama did it and so did Bush, it’s as American as apple pie b
25 the difference is usually they money they use to buy the votes goes through the proper congressional channels like it did with all of the stimulus checks, Trump's corporate tax cuts, the "inflation reduction act" and other bribes to the electorate.
"Throughout the 1920s, conservative Republicans controlled both the Congress and the Presidency. They made sure the "free" market ruled, and not a dime went to "parasites". Leading to the Great Depression."
There was a recession in 1921 and Harding, on the advice of his treasury secretary Andrew Mellon, took a hands-off approach. The recession quickly ended. Eight years later there was another recession and Mellon gave the same advice to Hoover but Hoover ignored him and intervened. Then Roosevelt had the government intervene even more and turned the recession into a 12-year Great Depression. It was government intervention, not free market capitalism, that caused the Great Depression.
Please man proper channels don’t make me laugh, so your memory is a bit fuzzy, Trump diverted money from a totally unrelated pile to send out stim checks then held it up while he argued about putting his name on the signature line, if you’d be honest you’ll admit they all bend the rules to justify their own agendas, and let’s not even get started about congress or the senate, these fucks live like a bunch of oligarchies themselves on the backs of the taxpayers. They get all kinds of benefits, perks and none of these fucks works a full week, there’s so much to criticize it’s a mess and they all are corrupt and should be called to task for it. Bunch of thrives that’s what we got running this country.
We can always count on the little Weasley shrub, the guy who refuses to pay his gambling debts like every other honorable man, to take a mostly civil discussion and try to start a flame war,
Hey shrub go back to the gay bath house we don’t need your homo services here.
In case anyone has forgotten.... a fundamental platform of the Democratic party is targeted re-distribution to the lower and middle class.
Some may cynically call this "vote buying", but Dems fundamentally believe some degree of redistribution is needed to offset the tremendous economic inequality that American capitalism has created.
What we can all agree on... is that this should not be done to an extent that dis-incentivizes hard work and self-sufficiency. Anyone who thinks this one-time forgiveness of 10K student loan debt is going to have any meaningful impact on the work ethic and motivation of Americans to pursue higher education is delusional....
25 both of the stimulus checks sent out by Trump where authorized by Congress. The 1st was part of the "CARES Act" passed in March 2020 and the 2nd was authorized by "Coronavirus Response and Relief Supplemental Appropriations Act of 2021" in December of 2020. There were two additional proposed stimulus checks (CARES 2 and HEROS Act) that were shot down by Congress in between those two.
I'll agree the whole delay in the checks so that he could get his signature on them was his oversized ego getting in the way of what was being done. I also agree that both sides bend the rules to get what they want, but POTUS spending $300,000,000,000+ without Congress authorizing it isn't bending the rules. It is flat out ignoring the Constitution.
@wld, if this was about "targeted re-distribution to the lower and middle class," they wouldn't be giving to the higher-earning college educated class (whose lower earnings are illusory due to being at the earlier stage of their careers), and taking from the lower-earning working class. This further confirms that the Dems are no longer the party of the working class.
If you think this "one-time forgiveness" is anything more than a down payment of what they'd do with more votes--like their left flank is already clamoring for--I've got oceanfront property in Nebraska to sell you.
So the democrats are helping the lower classes, who seldom go to college, by giving $10,000.00 to people making 125K? Do you left wing assholes ever look at the stupid things you post? You read your own fucking news that wage workers are leaving the democratic party in droves and that the democratic party base is foreigners, welfare queens, public union employees, criminals, leeches and the wretches called "government workers' , who are call party members in 1984 and not proles?
@Whodey
if we were to have a conversation about ignoring the constitution, there wouldn't be enough band width on the internet, to detail all the ways that the corrupt political class ignore it, I get the point you're trying to make, but as far as I can see it's a distinction without a difference.
I don't see any difference vote buying is vote buying no matter how it's dressed up.
Ha ha - this is all Biden, not so much them Dem party. Sure, this helps Biden’s popularity with some of the hardcore base, but It doesn’t move the needle for the Dem party. The people getting the handout would have voted Dem anyway. In fact many of the entitled pricks are mad the handout wasn’t bigger.
It does motivate a lot of the people left-out taxpayers (who either paid their loans, saved for college or didn’t go to college)and footing the bill to vote Republican.
It will hurt the Donkeys in the mid-term elections no matter how the much stream media tries to spin it.
Veteran Johnny “Joey” Jones reacted to President Joe Biden’s plan to cancel student loan debt for Americans making less than $125,000 a year.
The plan would cancel $10,000 in debt for those earning less than $125,000 a year, and for those who received Pell Grants, $20,000 in debt will be wiped.
“I cannot believe I gave two legs for my tuition,” Jones posted to Twitter, referring to the price he paid while serving as a U.S. Marine to have his college paid for.
TL/DR: Let's Go Brandon
As much as I hate government programs, I think a totally Federally underwritten student loan program would solve a lot of problems if correctly implemented. Now I know a bunch of College administrators just LDK reading that sentence, but they won't like this next part. Create a Admin cost to tuition ratio above which the College no longer qualifies for the program. The interest rate on the student loans is variable in different Colleges and in different programs within said Colleges. The interest rate is determined by the default rate, job placement upon graduation, and value (starting salary/tuition costs). Make the Colleges income proportionate to the outcomes of their product.
If someone wants to get a private loan for a Medieval Art History degree, knock yourself out, but I wouldn't want to hear shit about your inability to service that loan. Colleges would gradual phase out degree programs that weren't cost effective.
I worked hard and paid off my loans. This is a slap in my face. Anyone the acquires loans after June of this year get nothing. That is a slap in their face. Just a blatant attempt to boost his popularity and placate the progressive wing of the party.
You have to be a special kind of stupid to find anything remotely noble in the concept of an additional $300,000,000,000 in free money handputs. We are in the midst of a recession, the worst inflation in decades, they just passed a completely partisan tax and spend bill, and all the existing socialist programs are facing financial implosion. But you fools keep drinking that kool-aid.
Um, a Federally written student loan program is what caused this fucking mess in the first place. Once the feds got involved 30 years ago college costs quadrupled because they just gave away money.
I was wondering when this discussion was going to hit TUSCL.
Aside from feeling like a sucker for not having my kids take advantage of college loans when they were offered, this is really going to encourage more irresponsible behavior, more reckless borrowing, and more college loan defaults.
I would support college loan forgiveness for school teachers. But that’s about it.
Tetra wrote: "A degree that costs $250,000.."
We are in agreement that that kind of cost is absurd. The private school costs have to come way way down.
Now as far as what is studied, no matter what it is there is cost. And a student can make their own choices. Gender Studies and Racial Grievance grads are going to be very important in administrative positions in our more pluralistic world. And you know that a college degree does not make for you a career. You have to do that yourself.
A college degree has long helped with building a professional career, and Gender Studies and Racial Grievance can do that today.
SJG
Johnny "Joey" Jones: "'I cannot believe I gave two legs for my tuition,' Jones posted to Twitter, referring to the price he paid while serving as a U.S. Marine to have his college paid for."
Just like me, Jones knew the score when he signed up. The whole "I had to suffer for what I got, so everyone else should have to suffer too" bullshit is bullshit.
Billions in subsidies, business loan forgiveness, and tax breaks to existing millionaires and billionaires are a "good" thing, but letting students off their few thousand dollars worth of debt is going to ruin the country. /s
@SJG
"Gender Studies and Racial Grievance grads are going to be very important in administrative positions in our more pluralistic world."
Yes, filling make-work DEI roles that create rifts among Americans of different races, genders, and cultures is a great use of our resources. </sarc>
We should charge these people 18% interest rates for the damage they inflict on the social fabric of this country.
@GMD
"Just like me, Jones knew the score when he signed up."
Funny, this is _exactly_ what we've been saying about people who made the far lesser sacrifice of taking out student loans.
Tetra, Gender Studies and Racial Grievance are very important subjects. This is why people have written books about them, and why we have college classes about them, and why we now give college degrees in them.
SJG
87% of debt cancellation benefits will go to borrowers earning less than 75K
13% of debt cancellation benefits will go to borrowers earning 75K-125K
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Now even a lot of Dem candidates are saying this is bad policy. Giving rich white collar people money and making blue collar people pay for it. This is Biden’s biggest fuck-up since Afghanistan.
We want people to go to college, so we should not pile them with debts. We should not denigrate humanities and social science studies. And we must roll back the fees that some of these schools charge.
SJG
"Tetra, Gender Studies and Racial Grievance are very important subjects. This is why people have written books about them, and why we have college classes about them, and why we now give college degrees in them."
Circular logic.
"We want people to go to college"
No, _you_ want people to college.
The racial grievance mafia wants to make money selling hatred of America.
_We_ want people who are going to contribute to a functional, unified society.
E pluribus unum.
Making people understand our history of racial injustice is very important. If college can help do this, GREAT!
Exposing truth is how a functional society operates, not in trying to create the appearance of unity.
SJG
"Making people understand our history of racial injustice is very important."
That, I don't disagree with. That's called "history."
Racial grievance studies is where you're teaching people that America is irredeemably racist, that all racial differences are the result of discrimination, that "hard work, objective truth, and respect for authority" are "institutionalized whiteness" as the Smithsonian did.
Racial grievance studies is digging fingers in the old wounds so they don't heal and furthering divisions so they don't heal. And it's a cancer on the body politic.
"America is irredeemably racist"
Yes it is. Or at least it has been.
The work ethic has always been a bogus ethic. It is a capitalist over coding. People want to do well. Such bogus ethic exists to say that people have an inate defect. It works like Calvinism and Original Sin.
History has been written by the white power structure. It takes time to teach people to be able to recognize this.
Political awareness is no cancer, denial is.
SJG
"Yes it is. Or at least it has been."
There is no "has been," it is or it isn't. And we've shown a remarkable capacity to transcend our past. To pretend we've made no progress since the 60s is to be blind. Or have an agenda.
"The work ethic has always been a bogus ethic."
Work ethic is why we're not still gathering berries for subsistence and dying at 30. Work ethic is the difference between a life of significance and consequence and one of obscurity. Your disdain for it is yet another reason your organization doesn't exist.
"History has been written by the white power structure."
It's been written by the winners, all over the world. Natives and Africans were killing and enslaving each other long before whitey. Why is whitey uniquely culpable? I've never gotten a good answer to this.
Iirc the KKK targeted and killed italians, irish people, japanese, black people and republicans of any race including English white. So it wasn’t really even a white supremacist group it was specifically a hardcore democrat, english-white supremacist group. Irish and Italian are considered white now, but to an English white man theyre still foreign and different just like Asian and Black people.
But just like the modern day police killing statistics people will only focus in on specific races and ignore others.
Slavery was practiced all around the world and was actually used as a form of punishment for crimes as well as a form of payment for people who owed debts they couldn’t pay.
Just like healthcare once government starts funding and supporting colleges, quality goes down and prices go up. If the colleges are getting guaranteed money, they can just charge more and have trash quality. No need to perform well when money is guaranteed. Even people and dancers work that way.
Defending the kkk and calling white supremacist a compliment. See its not so bad being honest about what you really are.... now go talk like this where you're not semi anonymous.
Icee I didnt defend the KKK, on the other hand you’re attempting to dehumanize people who aren’t minority races. I pointed out that the KKK actually killed black people, japanese people, and even irish and italian people, and even english white people who were republican.
Just like cops today kill people of several different races.
And just like how, people of different races were enslaved, and they were enslaved by people of different races and for different reasons.
You don’t consider some races and republicans to be human, which is why you deny history and deny current events and claim cops only kill minorities and that the KKK only killed non white minorities.
Your morals and values flip flop depending on which race is doing what.
^ here's proof that it takes a troll to catch a troll
>>>>Your morals and values flip flop depending on which race is doing what.<<<<
And that is the essence of Iceefag,
^ Most don't let the truth depend on who benefits. You barf back progressive talking points with little imagination, pattern recognition, or goodwill. You ignore any data, in favor of what one guy you knew at Albertson's might have said.
I can't tell if you're trolling, or legitimately dumb. Or both.
Icee are you saying 25 is cacaplop?
And icee my post was basically saying you shouldn’t think in a concrete way but you shift and say i havent grown out of concrete thinking.
Racist shjt and trolling. Feigned outrage at nominal student loan forgiveness. While none of you bigots care about the massive ppp fraud committed by businesses.
Icee youre doing the blame whitey game. And you extend it further to the blame trick game. No matter what a dancer does to a trick youll say its justifiable.
Cops and the kkk killed people of different races backgrounds etc but youll sau they only killed one race or only non white minorities.
Slavery was practiced by tons of cultures but youll say only whites did it.
Anything a dancer or non white person does is justifiable. And maybe you extend it to politics too, maybe democrats are always justified. Or maybe all politicians are biased in favor of whites or something
@BTE you might be fairly new here but you've got Icee figured out. He isn't that bright and isn't that complex.
He's also the guy who thought Will Smith slapping Chris Rock was justified to "defend his wife's honor" but actual cases of self-defense aren't. If there's a constant to his politics, it's coming down on the side of the criminal, the malcontent, and the leech.
I can't tell if he's trying to be provocative, or is just that fucking stupid.
The race card at every opportunity says the former, but the lack of intelligence is apparent.
Hey what's the big deal about throwing another trillion on the inflationary fire.
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Summary: President Biden’s new student loan forgiveness plan includes three major components. We estimate that debt cancellation alone will cost up to $519 billion, with about 75% of the benefit accruing to households making $88,000 or less. Loan forbearance will cost another $16 billion. The new income-driven repayment (IDR) program would cost another $70 billion, increasing the total plan cost to $605 billion under strict “static” assumptions. However, depending on future IDR program details to be released and potential behavioral (i.e., “non-static”) changes, total plan costs could exceed $1 trillion.
I'd like to see a statistical evaluation attached to every loan taken for education, and on that evaluation, I would require an estimate of future earnings based on the curricula being financed, and a societal benefit analysis as well, if the statistical analysis indicates that the loan is prudent and sustainable it would be underwritten just like the banks have limits on mortgage availability that take into account the creditworthiness of the borrower, and the LTV of the property to be financed, if our government required this as part of the loan process, we'd never be in a predicament like this again. and the colleges would be forced to rein in their costs, or face the prospect of educational defaults rather than the taxpayers be on the hook for dollars paid to these incredibly wealthy non profit institutions.
@25, yes, and interest rate based on creditworthiness and contribution to society.
Electrical engineering = 3%, Psychology = 7.5%, Gender studies = 18%. Don't like it? Go to the public library or internet and educate yourself, rather than taking a taxpayer subsidy (i.e. our money) to do so.
Tax university endowments (these things are hedge funds)
Make private universities liable for student loan defaults (i.e. failing to do their job)
Limit on loans for each school up to last year plus year over year CPI increase
Tetradon that will smith is interesting cause actually a lot of leftists or social justice types flip flopped on it. They held the view that if a white man had insulted will smith the slap would be justified but because chris rock said it, it was unjustified.
I wonder if Icee would still think it was justifiable if it was a white guy getting his wife insulted by chris rock who then slapped him? Icees viewpoint is different than the mainstream leftist viewpoint on rock vs smith but his interpretation still leaves room for a racial flip flop of his own.
This kind of stuff is what makes me rethink gun control, all these people desperate to defend the honor of something. Either themselves or a wife or a race or other cause.
In one thread Icee said ROBs are justifiable to scam or mislead people because tricks shouldn’t be looking for hookers at a strip club. If a dancer offers sexual services or extras either itc or otc he said they’re desperate, hoes, dumb and unable to hustle. If a ROB promises extras itc or otc, and takes money but doesnt deliver, he considers that hustling, finessing, and all sorts of other commendable remarks. the actual hoe is bad and dumb and desperate whereas the thief is commended.
@BTE, generally around here when you're on the opposite side as Icee, SJG, and CJKent, you're on the side of logic, reason, and common sense.
Of course, some people want to hear racial grievance in their Rice Krispies every morning, so they do. Or they do it to get a rise out of people. There's a story that Richard Nixon insulted Canadian PM Pierre Trudeau, then when Nixon apologized, Trudeau said "I've been called worse things by better people." That's how I feel about Icee. He calls me a white supremacist? LOL where are his reasoning skills and moral standing? They simply don't exist.
Icey is an admitted pimp, panderer, liar, manipulator, thief, who gets women addicted to drugs, lies to them, and beats them. That is, if he's telling the truth about anything, which is far from certain. I think he works at a gas station (others think he works at Burger King, which is possible), maybe has a couple trailer trash bitches he introduces to johns and takes a little cut. With all the time he spends here, he doesn't have many girls to manage.
But whatever the truth is, he's makes any whoremonger here look like St. Paul. Why would anyone take being called immoral by him seriously?
As for being an ROB, it isn't good business. Word gets around. It isn't about extras. Just don't promise something you aren't going to deliver, and don't shake someone down. It's penny wise and pound foolish.
“time travel is only possible going forward, it's impossible to go back in time”
But the majority of movies and TV shows about time travel go back, not forward
Cancel It All: Debt Collective’s Astra Taylor on Biden Plan & Need for Full Student Debt Relief
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Replying here in particular to points raised by @whodey, yes most all debt is dischargeable by bankruptcy. It is tradition going back to the middle ages. When this loan system was discussed they decided to exempt it from bankruptcy out of fear that all these young people would just declare bankruptcy. That and the loan system were a mistake, a huge mistake of the Reagan era.
As far as Biden making the tax payer eat it, and without an act of congress, I think built into the act which created the student loan system, was the tenant that the federal government was already on the hook. But then it was also the government which was tasked with collection. So Biden,as chief of the executive branch, merely had to cancel the collection.
We screwed over WWI veterans. Now it took a major protest movement, but eventually we did right by them
March of the Bonus Army - Part 1
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Part 2
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Part 3
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SJG
Al Jolson - Brother can you spare a Dime (music similar to Somewhere Over the Rainbow)
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Jimmy Smith, Wes Montgomery Further Adventures of Jimmy and Wes
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^ Ah, the "whataboutism" argument.
The Democracy Now argument is more "I want free shit." At least they aren't lying and calling themselves "Common Sense Now."
I am a big believer in higher education, and I would never underestimate the value of a college education - regardless of the major. Just don’t expect someone else to pay for it, and don’t go to a school you can’t afford.
The University of Florida is a top 5 public university, and the yearly in state tuition is $6,800. That’s about 10 big nights out at the strip club for most PLs. Community colleges in Florida cost between $1,200 and $1,800 per year. That’s like 2 VIP sessions at a top tier club. So I’m not buying the unaffordability narrative.
No one is entitled to attend an expensive private institution, just like no one is entitled to driving a Mercedes.
"Hypocrisy, Tetradon. Hypocrisy."
Is not an argument. I wouldn't have forgiven these loans either but two wrongs don't make a right. And yes, a job creating enterprise adds more value to society than a worthless degree that can't recoup investment.
This was a giveaway to a Democratic constituency. Full stop.
Higher education is a public benefit and a public expense. You are not being asked to pay for anything, but you are required to pay taxes. And not there are the taxes which should have been paid over the last 40 years as people have been getting rich off the Reagan tax cuts.
And Republicans should have been in the lead in supporting this. Even publicly run colleges increase the wealth gap by benefiting the better off.
SJG
Herbert Hoover, Douglas MacArthur, and George Patton made a mess of the situation dispersing the Bonus Army from their peaceful encampment.
Voters responded to this in the 1932 election. And eventually we did right by the veterans and because of this we treated WWII veterans much better with the GI Bill.
SJG
iknowbetter, the costs of college have become absurd. Were it up to me I would force the costs down. Most of these so called private entities are still largely funded by government research grants. I would make bring costs way down if they expect that to continue.
SJG
“
Under no economy is there a natural market for racial and gender or LGBTQ grievance study jobs. They add nothing to society, only create harmful rifts between Americans. They should receive no subsidies whatsoever.”
Ironically i have seen some of these big consulting and accounting firms have positions like “chief diversity officer” and even other diversity oriented positions. From what ive heard the position is basically nonsense and the purpose of the position is more to advertise and attract clients and employees, not because of actual work being done by the person in the position itself. It’s possible they’re making less than other executive level people in the company too
^ BTE is correct, these grads are sought after. Everyone should have some knowledge of Gender and Racial Grievance studies. It is a subject of current interest for good reason, our society is changing.
SJG
"Ironically i have seen some of these big consulting and accounting firms have positions like “chief diversity officer” and even other diversity oriented positions."
They should be within the branding and marketing department, because that's what it is. An attempt to placate an Extremely Online Twitter mob that only has power because others think do. They do nothing to make the company more profitable or humane when you consider their narrow definition of "diversity, equity, and inclusion." I don't see the NBA pushing for more sub 6 footers or South Asians.
"BTE is correct, these grads are sought after. Everyone should have some knowledge of Gender and Racial Grievance studies. It is a subject of current interest for good reason, our society is changing."
You might be crazy but you aren't stupid, let's see if you can identify your circular logic.
We should train CIA agents in racial and grievance studies, and send them to spread this divisive poison in Iran, Russia, and China to erode their societies from within.
In America, let's focus on making all Americans part of this country's exemplary story. And if someone wants to make money hating us, we can fly them first class one way to any America-hating dictatorship of their choice.
The CIA, FBI, and our Military should be trained in these matters. Spreading such ideas in other countries would often be completely outside of their responsibilities.
There has to be justice here in the US, and this means racial, gender, and sexual orientation. The only people who don't want this are those like you Tetra who hate America.
SJG
^ No, it's been a part of covert operations for sometime, and would be a worthy addition to the arsenal. Of course it might not work, since no one blinks at a lack of non Chinese in leadership positions in China, for example. But it's worth a shot.
Your conception of "hate America" is amusing, as the one who wants to fragment it and says it's "irredeemably racist." Because if it's "irredeemable" it can't be saved and has to be destroyed.
Of course Democrats want to append "justice" onto all their preferred policies, but everyone recognizes this as word games.
The myth that America was ever fair and all inclusive has to be discarded. It was never so.
We are though getting better everyday, and Gender Studies and Racial Grievance Programs, and BLM, are helping.
On the whole the Democratic Party is doing good and the Republicans are doing bad.
SJG
"We are though getting better everyday, and Gender Studies and Racial Grievance Programs, and BLM, are helping."
Surveys of the state of racial relations in the last ten years say you're a damn liar.
Well racial minorities are not going to put up with the crap they used to have to. And women and gays are not either.
And eventually people will see that this idea of "mental illness" is nonsense and reject it too.
SJG
"Well racial minorities are not going to put up with the crap they used to have to."
Obviously they're less satisfied. But SJG, King of the Black People, thinks he knows better.
Actually, people see that _you're_ mentally ill, and reject you as a kook.
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As we have come to learn, whenever you see some conservative talking point repeated over and over by right wing media and their viewers, it will often turn out to be completely false or else greatly exaggerated.
Fact check: Student loan forgiveness won’t make inflation ‘even worse,’ experts say
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^ Far from a unanimous view, and deceptive in that it counts the deflationary impact of resuming student loan payments.
"Fact checking" is another newspaper marketing ploy, not evidence of objectivity.
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Assessments from independent, third-party experts such as an academic economist provides some objectivity. Economists from Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley reached the same conclusion:
"“While the new debt forgiveness program will boost consumption slightly, the combined effect of debt forgiveness and a payment resumption will be slightly negative,” wrote Goldman’s team. Even if widespread forgiveness is “slightly inflationary,” according to the report, borrowers resuming payments next year will more than offset it."
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@doc So basically the economics of the New Deal was government deficit spending to halt a deflationary spiral. Whatever your claimed intervention by Hoover was, it was clearly much less than FDRs. FDR was no revolutionary, and was concerned about going too far with deficit spending. At one point, he cut the deficit, and unemployment spiked back up. It was only when WWII forced even greater deficit spending that the deflationary spiral was ended, rather than just being slowed.
Economics is supposed to be a science. In science, hypotheses have to be refutable by observations to be of value. Your hypothesis that, if X doesn't work, that only means there wasn't enough X, is irrefutable. You can always say you just need more X.
Suppose someone played Russian Roulette with two bullets in the revolver, and didn't die. Then they took one bullet out, played again, and died. By your way of reasoning, the safest way to play Russian Roulette would be to put all six bullets in the gun.
One thing I've not seen much discussed is that this new Biden plan will lead to a transfer of wealth from males to females. Two thirds of all student debt is held by women. Women are more likely to go to college and, once there, are more likely to major in fields that don't lead to high paying jobs. They end up carrying more debt because they can't pay it back with their low incomes. So, this program will lead to things like the male plumber or auto mechanic paying more taxes so the female with the sociology or art degree gets off the hook for paying back her student loan.
I went into a practical field, accounting, to avoid this situation. I don't have unpaid loans and I don't want to be responsible for the unpaid loans of others. Four of my stripper regulars had college degrees in music, drama, psychology and art respectively. I was perfectly willing to engage in voluntary transactions with them where I gave them money and they gave me lap dances and company. They could use the money I voluntarily gave them to help pay back their student loans. I considered them good people for being willing to give me something of value to me in exchange for my money.
>So, this program will lead to things like the male plumber or auto mechanic paying more taxes
Taxes aren't going up because of this program. Government deficits will increase, which can be addressed by taxation or spending. If Dems are in power, you can be sure the burden will be placed mainly on the wealthy or corporations, who have benefitted from an educated workforce.
“Two thirds of all student debt is held by women. Women are more likely to go to college and, once there, are more likely to major in fields that don't lead to high paying jobs”
Thank you Doc for making that clear. It’s interesting to tie threads together. In the satirical thread about a male room for TUSCL that turned serious, I pointed out that creating safe spaces for girls and young women does more harm than good.
Isolating them at a young age sends a message they can’t compete with men and further drives home the notion they’re not capable of taking STEM classes
This is part of the reason I started stripping. I fell into the bracket of no parents to help but also didnt qualify for pell grants. I had a full tuition scholarship for a state school. Even with stripping, I ended up with $30,000 worth of loans. The cost of school is just fucking ridiculous at this point. Offering loan forgiveness is just a bandaid, and the problem still remains. I guess it does show how pressure can help push public policy, although both sides of the political spectrum are shitty.
Now, I still strip because I work whenever I want and make decent money. I’m autistic, so normal life isn’t for me no matter how much I’d like it to be. Lmao.
With economics, the deficit is there due to a surplus on the capital account. Stop buying cheap foreign bs if you care about it that much. Besides that,
> If Dems are in power, you can be sure the burden will be placed mainly on the wealthy or corporations, who have benefitted from an educated workforce.
When taxes are raised on corporations, they increase prices on the goods they sell to pay the extra taxes. This then hurts the average person who has to pay the higher prices. Soak the rich tax schemes never work in the long run. The money from the taxes just benefits people who are unwilling to engage in voluntary transactions with others where they offer goods, money or services in exchange for something they want in return. There is no moral difference between someone who forces me to pay for their college degree and a thug who holds a gun on me and demands I hand over my wallet.
Google the article about the Gainesville Florida couple that paid off $190,000 of student loan debt in 27 months.
They worked their butts off, 15-16 hour days and made sacrifices
This should be the end of the argument
No matter which side of this debate you favor. I'd like to see the colleges held accountable for this fiasco, maybe some enterprising lawyer with a creative legal mind can put together a class action lawsuit, similar to how they went after the tobacco companies, and sue the fuck out of these rich not for profit businesses that have enriched themselves on the backs of poor student's taking out loans to be able to have a better future. then failing to delivering on those promises made as sales pitches.
>When taxes are raised on corporations, they increase prices on the goods they sell to pay the extra taxes. This then hurts the average person who has to pay the higher prices. Soak the rich tax schemes never work in the long run.
This is the Wall Street line for sure, but it's not entirely true. Just passing on all the cost to customers can put the company at a competitive disadvantage and creates pressure for the company to be more efficient, less wasteful, and reconsider compensation (including executive compensation) and shareholder returns. Raising prices is one response but not the only.
The recent 1% excise tax on corporate stock buybacks is a good example of smart policy. That's unlikely to translate to higher prices, but will raise a projected $74 billion in tax revenue over 10 years. 1% is tiny, but it's a starting point.
@Aaaaaaa “Offering loan forgiveness is just a bandaid, and the problem still remains. I guess it does show how pressure can help push public policy, although both sides of the political spectrum are shitty.”
I personally 100% with your post. That being said, if I was an upper middle class dude with a house already paid off and a couple of rental properties to boot that are 2k a month or whatever they are and a cheap OTC habit from titty bars, I too would be joining in with all the mass complaining in this thread. Because from that vantage point, student loan burdens are a GOOD thing and the opposite of a burden.
Student loan debt falls proportionally on women who carry 2/3rd of the balance. Whether fairly or unfairly, men have more options when it comes to making money other than college, and are taken more seriously by employers due to their tendency to not get pregnant and inconveniences like that. And when men do go to college, they tend to make higher pay with their degrees. Or if guys don’t, then they are on the streets smoking fentanyl and dying. But hey, nothing wrong with young men eliminating themselves. Less competition from young women’s peer group for me!
Therefore, it’s completely logical for most of the posters on this thread to be furious at this recent decision. They want young women motivated to keep flooding the strip clubs, sugar sites, etc (and it’s young females who carry more of that burden) And student loans are something that can’t be discharged. It keeps the completion higher and the pay-for-play cheaper.
Now if I was a hypothetical dude who actually happened to care about the free market or government involvement or something, I’d be off complaining about the bigger issues like PPP mass forgiveness, which unlike student loans NO conditions attached, just POOF. And I’d also get especially furious about 2008 and 2020 bailouts rewarding the big guys for their fuckups. Or the fact that the United States has continued its long standing slide on the economic freedom index and is currently ranked #25. But this discussion board barely complains about any of that stuff. Oh, and I’d probably take my complaining off of this site and onto a better place to spout my political opinions.
^ I think stock buybacks are overdone, but recall that they themselves are a consequence of changes in the tax treatment of dividends. Social engineering through tax policy produces unintended consequences.
$7.4 billion a year out of >$4 trillion in annual tax revenues isn't even worth considering. To call it a "rounding error" is an insult to rounding errors.
^ That was for @wld4tatas
@nicespice, student loan debt disproportionately falls on women because more women than men attend college, and when they do, they choose lower-paying majors. Pregnancy, yes, but women are delaying or foregoing childbearing altogether these days.
Higher education is broken. It exists to prepare young people for life. Giving them employable skills. Making them competent and able to succeed. It does a miserable job of that.
The system needs massive reform. Normally, market forces would force it to change. By subsidizing college through loans, grants, tax breaks, research grants, and state funding, there is little incentive to reform.
If you are a President of a University, the status quo works great. You’ve got a big salary, a huge staff, and the money keeps rolling in.
There is something called Moral Hazard. It means that if you are protected from the financial harm of your bad decisions, you’ll keep making this bad decisions. Both the college administrators and students are being protected from their bad life choices.
@doc a former fav of mine became an auto mechanic. She had to leave the field due to sexual harassment. She did work on the other dancers' cars, so couldn't have been that bad at it. She didn't do extras or electrical.
I agree with what you say about corporations. Dividends and stock buy backs should be taxed, maybe even at the top marginal rate for income tax. But the tax should be passed through as a credit to any stock holder who files an individual US tax return. I've never understood how the capital gains tax makes sense, just adjust the basis for inflation, tax the gain like any income. That does create a need for income averaging. Maybe the best solution to that is to remove any early withdrawal penalty on traditional IRAs, and the annual cap on contributions. On the other hand, might be better to only tax US income for non-residents, and have a large VAT. Have a small UBI and a greatly expanded EAP to keep taxation progressive.
As to college debt, higher ed had a much higher subsidy when I was in college, and I wasn't obliged to subsidize as many do-nothing administrators. So I'd feel hypocritical criticizing Gropey Joe's limited debt forgiveness.
Those of us without accounting degrees have to rely on trustworthy advice to manage our finances. Our government assured high schoolers they were getting expert advice from the school guidance counselor. Who pushed the idea hard that it was always better to have a 4-year college degree, regardless of major. The government can't skip out on responsibility for this fraud, and unfortunately making it good comes out of the taxpayer's hide. But, can't whine too much, this is a (flawed) democracy.
“Icey is an admitted pimp, panderer, liar, manipulator, thief, who gets women addicted to drugs, lies to them, and beats them. That is, if he's telling the truth about anything, which is far from certain. I think he works at a gas station (others think he works at Burger King, which is possible), maybe has a couple trailer trash bitches he introduces to johns and takes a little cut. With all the time he spends here, he doesn't have many girls to manage.”
Completely hilarious description of Icee! If he’s actually beating women and getting them addicted to drugs that’s totally insane, cause he’s posted about how its immoral and unacceptable to treat strippers like hookers and proposition them for extras or Otc. The image of a trailer trash pimp is hilarious. Maybe there are some good otc opportunities at some of the trailer parks
"Therefore, it’s completely logical for most of the posters on this thread to be furious at this recent decision. They want young women motivated to keep flooding the strip clubs, sugar sites, etc (and it’s young females who carry more of that burden)."
It's also completely logical for pretty young females to not want to spend their time with boring old men and to want to spend it with charming young good-looking guys. I understand that.
If they do that, though, they should not expect the men they shun to pay for their college with their taxes. The reason it is being discussed right now is because it's in the news right now. Complaining about other people doing things they shouldn't when this comes up is like a child saying "the other kids do it too" when her mom catches her doing something she shouldn't. I'm all for eliminating any type of subsidy. Our current level of government spending is unsustainable. The money printing to pay for excessive spending will lead into hyper-inflation and we will turn into Zimbabwe or Venezuela. The Republicans are partly to blame. Trump added seven trillion dollars to the national debt in four years. Us Boomers are partly to blame too. We should have accepted raising the retirement age to lessen the burden of young people paying for our Social Security. I'm 66 and still working so at least young folks don't have to pay for my retirement benefits yet. I have sympathy for the younger generation. We ran up the thirty trillion-dollar national debt and are leaving it to them to pay off.
The solution is simple... stop the corporatization of public colleges and universities. Lower tuition and spend more tax money subsidizing education. Cancel all existing student debt.
Go after businesses that abused ppp loans.
Too many people getting upset and drinking the Kool-Aide. The massive debt that can never be paid off by many folk who went to college to improve their circumstances found themselves victims of this money scheme. On one hand people are fed this idea that college is the path for a better life and then they are put an ecconomic trick bag. Not everyone, but enough to make it a serious problem. So when someone tries to address the problem, not everyone is going to be happy. People want to blame this political party or that political party but it's an economic nightmare in which many have found themselves drowning. Many politicians now crying "foul" take government money from programs for their own personal use---Marjorie Taylor Mean, I mean Greene, Matt Gaetz etc., etc. So, if not a small starting point in loan forgiveness, what other solutions will really help as higher education costs get higher?
It's very questionable whether anyone here is actually furious. The right wing media circus and their political puppet masters were trying once again to whip people up into a frenzy of anti-Biden sentiment. They tried to conjur up any and all possible angle to get people angry, like they always do. Most likely, a few conservative members on this board got caught up in it. When they settle down, they may come to realize this decision has some merits.
Oh, I'm lucky in that I don't have college debt. My father worked his ass off to make sure of it. I'm sure he incurred debt...all those years ago. But this issue is not about me, indivudally, it's about many in society who provide services that are vital.
As a whole demographic, women prefer to follow the rules and take less risks. And the ones who deviate from that have tougher challenges than males do for reasons I won’t get into. Universities were pushed as that “middle class stability”. Many women, for better or worse, end up being attracted to more “nurture” or “support” type of job roles that aren’t the big bucks but provide stability—whether nature or nurture causes that I won’t get into it. In fields like healthcare it’s alright (though there are areas like nursing where some do well and other nurses get massively screwed and they have to do travel nursing to make anything because hospital administrators do all they can to screw over their in-house labor—and then later waaaaah shortage) And that’s one of the better options. Other roles like teaching or counseling, yeah forget it. A lot of those jobs *require* masters degrees but the pay doesn’t match.
But hey, not to say it’s not all roses for traditional “male” jobs either. Like engineers who make 75k a year but their job forces them to live in an area where that salary doesn’t take them all that far. But if anybody dares to complain, then move the goal post and say they should have done trades instead. But then up the school requirement for trades so that some of us wonder and get suspicious whether that’s the “next frontier” to also get over saturated and devalued.
Also, I haven’t ever seen a whole thread on this site ever devoted to PPP loan fraud. Despite that was in the news.
The forgiveness of school loans really should have been tied to some social benefit, even a requirement that the person getting the loan forgiveness is working in one of the many places that have a shortage of workers, that probably would have alleviated much of the bullshit from the hard core Right Wingers, Biden might have even gotten some grudging respect from the MAGA crowd (They'd never admit it though) and it would have provided some push back against the argument that the Ds are catering too much to the fringe Progressives.
"what other solutions will really help as higher education costs get higher?"
The current system of subsidizing tuition no matter how much it gets hiked is the reason it keeps increasing. Biden just created a huge moral hazard for universities, but Democrats both on this thread and in Washington seem to take pride in their ignorance of basic economics.
Universities should be on the hook for defaults, for they were the ones who took their students' money and failed to prepare them for the real world. University endowments should be taxed like the hedge funds they are. Federal loan amounts should be indexed to CPI. Trade schooling should be promoted; for too long we've treated non college educated people as inferior. If we want European style finding of public education we need European style public schools. That means bare bones, few amenities, mostly commuter schools, none of this 4 year vacation shit.
I'd go further and issue interest rates on loans based on ability to pay back. Electrical engineering from MIT is a smarter bet than gender studies from Oberlin. Banks do the same thing for mortgages.
Basically think what would SJG or Icee do, and do the opposite.
"It's very questionable whether anyone here is actually furious."
@wld4tatas, I am, and I haven't watched Fox news since I was hospitalized ten years ago. Biden stuck a gun in my face and his hand in my pocket so some irresponsible idiot can avoid the consequences of their actions. And yes, it's different than a business that was forcibly shut down.
Of course I'm furious. And you aren't a mind reader.
^ Oh and I'm expected to believe that it's a coincidence that it's a handout to a key Democratic constituency in an election year. You'd have to be dumber than a bucket of coals to think that's a coincidence.
@ nicespice
>>Also, I haven’t ever seen a whole thread on this site ever devoted to PPP loan fraud. Despite that was in the news.<<
Nothing to stop you from making a thread like that it might be informative I have some actual knowledge of how the PPP program was administrated, and most of the smaller loans were used as intended, most of the amounts under 150K were actually used as payroll to keep employed folks from being laid off, the fraud was in the larger amounts PPP monies issued in excess of 500K to many well over several million that's actually where the fraud was.
Additionally the smaller PPP loans were the vast majority of the actual individual loans going to smaller businesses with less than 25 employees, but the vast majority of the money was used in those larger amounts, where the businesses piggishly enriched the upper echelons and laid off the many hourly employees,
By saying buden is buying votes what you're really saying is that a popular program your candidate opposes will make people vote Democrat. That's your problem for opposing a popular agenda.
the lockdowns shouldn’t have happened and neither should the ppp program or any sort of subsidies. There shouldn’t be any public schooling or parks either, nor income tax or property tax. Something like 30% sales tax, but no income taxes could be reasonable.
Docsavage,
“ There is no moral difference between someone who forces me to pay for their college degree and a thug who holds a gun on me and demands I hand over my wallet.”
The thug is showing bravery, honesty, and willing to face the consequences of his actions so he is arguably morally superior than the manipulative coward using “voting” and government power to forcibly extract the money. It’s kind of reminiscent of the honest straightforward racist or sexist vs the “I believe in equality but think only some races of cancer victims, homelessness, police violence drunk driving etc should be assisted”
“
They should be within the branding and marketing department, because that's what it is. An attempt to placate an Extremely Online Twitter mob that only has power because others think do. They do nothing to make the company more profitable or humane when you consider their narrow definition of "diversity, equity, and inclusion." I don't see the NBA pushing for more sub 6 footers or South Asians.”
Unfortunately even if the market was totally free market companies would still be advertising the racial stuff and making money off it. Just like some companies are advertising their good environmental habits and goals.
Look at the yeezy shoes for example. Ugly as hell, plain looking as hell, but people will buy them because a famous rapper made them, and just to show off wealth and because they want to look cool for their friends. Now imagine some idiot like this grows up and gets into a powerful position in a company, they might do business with someone who’s very racially and environmentally aware instead of someone who will bring more money to the company. It can all occur even in a totally free market, as long as brainwashed people exist.
ilbbaicnl's acessment of FDR and Hoover and our economics is correct.
Student Loan forgiveness mostly brings people back into the economy.
The money that was not collected in taxes since Reagan should be recollected now. This will neutralize inflation.
SJG
25—>“Additionally the smaller PPP loans were the vast majority of the actual individual loans going to smaller businesses with less than 25 employees, but the vast majority of the money was used in those larger amounts, where the businesses piggishly enriched the upper echelons and laid off the many hourly employees,”
Yeah, an application system instead of “free money for meeee” would have been nice. And I overall agree with you. Also, whoever is currently running the Twitter White House account did a pretty good roast recently. 😁
[view link]
Capitalism has been broken for 150 years, only large scale wars covering this up.
We need to go to Social Democracy, staring with Universal Basic Income and a Strong No Needs Test Public Housing Offering, and continuing with Medicare for All and Free College with College Loan Forgiveness.
SJG
Emily Williams-I Say a Little Prayer For You
[view link]
We also need to stop drinking the kool-aid that we need four years of these college-running parasites to make us into non-deplorables. I went to school for 8 semesters full time, worked part time, cost the taxpayers a lot of money in subsides. I could have worked full time (thus needing less subsidies or loans), gone to school part time, and learned specifically the things I needed for my trade (IT) in 4 semesters or less
Scrub the trades I work with make multiple 6 figures. Also if you think the trades are retarded you need to come out of your VR world and meet real people. You don't have to go to college to be smart.
I think a better use of those funds would be to grant it as credits to PL's to use on verified college strippers. She can turn in those vouchers for $. That's the stimulus we all need!
Comment found on the internet:
“This student loan bailout is a disaster
It’s the legal robbery of middle class America to bribe the modern Democrat voter base, which entirely consists of indoctrinated socialists wearing masks while working from home in overpriced shoebox apartments living with their non-binary cats and half-dead houseplants in crime ridden cities with 3 vaccines, 2 boosters, and a bachelor’s degree from SUNY-Oswego with a major in “Community Organizing” and a minor in “communism will work this time trust me”
^ "It’s the legal robbery of middle class America to bribe the modern Democrat voter base"
Actually this is the inconvenient truth, dismissed to keep your fantasy that this is altruism.
I think Biden got this one just about right. Again. Not a surprise, since he listens to all sides including his Republican colleagues, before making decisions. He's a left-leaning centrist.
Contrast the debt relief package with the Trump tax cuts:
Biden Debt Relief: All (100%) of the economic benefit goes to Americans with incomes <125K
Trump Tax Cuts: Most (60%) of the economic benefit went to Americans in the top 20% income
^ Misleading. Those with college debt are early in their careers and haven't reached their earning potential.
I didn't support the Trump tax cuts either, but that's an irrelevant deflection.
If you like that he's buying Democratic votes with public money, just say it straight out.
Anything that helps Americans, especially the middle class, can always be labelled as "buying votes". One could say the same thing about tax cuts. So that's just a pointless lens through which to look at things.
Better to look at the substantive impact on Americans, especially the middle class, to judge policy merit.
Substantive impact is to jack up college tuitions further via the same mechanisms they've been jacked up for the last 40 years. We've sent a big fat signal that they can increase tuition as much as they please, and college students can make stupid financial decisions, and we'll bail them out.
Substantive impact? Higher education will become even more of a financial drain than ever. Moral hazard for the win.
Tuition goes up coz universities have adopted a corporate model since the late 90s. The shift to research from teaching. Sports run as for profit ventures etc
@icee, incorrect. That increase started in 1980 or so, long before the late 90s.
Sports may get a bum rap--and create other distortions like creating another set of rules for athletes--but they bring in money for big universities.
Something like 75% of the government budget involves taking money from person A and giving it to person B. Sometimes, the government then takes from person B and gives it back to person A. Meanwhile, the politicians take credit for all that money changing hands as though it came out of the politicians pocket.
Some of the citizenry is beginning to see this for the scam it is. It’s about time !
If I want to torque myself about freeloading, I can just think about strip clubs. If there were enough customers like me (who are fine with $100+/15 minutes, don't expect any sort of free time), non-extras strippers would make $200K+ per year, working less than 20 hours per week. There's a minority of customers who are crucial to making the hardships of stripping worthwhile. Other customers are in some sense freeloading.
If nurses thought I was a freeloader on society, I couldn't entirely blame them. I have a (much) higher income I think, and a much less stressful job. Wasn't a cake walk to get where I am. But it was mostly about luck, being born with unusual aptitudes, rather than making more sacrifices than others.
Yes, likely Biden is pandering at least in part with this. There's some reason to feel he's pandering to people who are financially undisciplined and self-indulgent. But the alternative is politicians who pander to hateful emoting in place of thinking.
The 'get off my porch' rage on this thread is hilarious. Pro tip... you aren't really mad about current events. You are mad because of you're compulsive addiction to echo chamber outrage porn journalism. Stop watching the conservative talking heads who get paid to rile you up and read the substance of actual legislation. Be informed and empowered instead of simply mad because someone told you to be mad. If you understand why liberals blaming Trump for everything is silly you should have the fundamental intellectual honesty to understand and acknowledge the conservative counterpart.
Somewhere up near the top there was some of question of where the authority fell for student loan forgiveness. There is an official answer to that question posted online, written by a lawyer.
ur welcome. [view link]
"Stop watching the conservative talking heads who get paid to rile you up and read the substance of actual legislation."
Thanks for telling me what I think and what led me to my conclusions, Mr. Psychic. And this isn't legislation, it's executive action.
Tetradon I agree. Let's get back those ppp loans businesses abused. And make them pay back all the corporate welfare. Plus let's make foreign countries we propose up regimes in give foreign aid back. No free shit for the rich.
OK. We take back the amount of charged PPP fraud, that's less than a billion. I don't know what "corporate welfare" is, but if you're talking about taking less of someone's tax dollars, that isn't "corporate welfare." In 2021, that was $38 billion.
Maybe if we do this several times over, we'll get to the Democratic estimates of what student loan forgiveness might cost us. Double or triple that to get to the real value.
Just admit you like that Democrats are buying votes with public funds already.
Note who I don't see many people ascribing any loan debt responsibility to--the ones who keep hiking tuition, adding non-teaching administrators, and not preparing students for the real world.
From the Harvard University Hedge Fund, I mean, Endowment, of $53.2 billion, on down.
And we have five public schools topping $10 billion too.
[view link]
Oh man you really are far off PPP program spent over 800 Billion of which
NBER analysis of PPP found that 75% of PPP funds went to business owners, shareholders, creditors, and suppliers and roughly 25% to workers who would have otherwise lost their jobs.
here's a link with the numbers
[view link].
digest that and keep in mind the vast majority of loans were small and used properly
but the major amount of money was spent on some huge businesses and stolen
P.S. Remember it was called the Paycheck Protection Program, that's actually what the intent of the money was for, not not rents, inventories, suppliers, and missed profits.
BTW I'm not saying that I'm a huge fan of the tuition payoff either, if they wanted me to be on board they need to earmark that money in such a way that there is a public benefit maybe require every one getting forgiveness to seek employment in the places where shortages are impacting inflation, or some other public benefit attached to spending that money, but our government no matter whether it's a Democratic or Republican spendthrift program, insists on giving my money away with no accountability, both sides are criminally negligent, and forget where this money really comes from, as a matter of fact they live like Fucking Oligarchs on our dime, we really need them to stop this, and do the job they were sent to do.
@25, I was using the amount of prosecuted PPP fraud, which was less than a billion.
The larger point: Pimpy was sick the day they taught math in math class.
"BTW I'm not saying that I'm a huge fan of the tuition payoff either, if they wanted me to be on board they need to earmark that money in such a way that there is a public benefit maybe require"
We could get into both-sides-ism on any political discussion here. The whatabout redirection is one of Pimpy's favorite tactics--we can't accuse the left of something if a conservative did something wrong in the last century. I'm not a fan of the PPP bailouts either--like Warren Buffett said, capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without hell. That's also not the topic of this thread. Feel free to start another one on that.
On the topic of _this_ thread, we've got a ruling party in deep shit for the midterms who's enriching its own constituency with $500B-$1T of public funding, causing a moral hazard that's only going to lead to more tuition increases and therefore more debt going forward, and throwing blood in the water for those who want even bigger bailouts.
Tetradon is basically just minimizing corporate and business sector fraud and handouts because he supports them. While attacking popular programs because they favor politics he disapproves of.
^ They only prosecuted selective egregious cases, there was a fuckton more than 1 Billion dollars in fraud, as a matter of fact there are estimates out there on just the diverted monies there were more than 73 Billion diverted into expenses specifically excluded that doesn't even begin to address the non payroll portions of the monies, if you remember the terms of the program were that and I'm just going from memory so I might not be accurate, money to be used 75% to cover missed payrolls, and several other allowed categories of expenses which really shouldn't matter for the purpose of this discussion as the article I included shows that an awful lot less than 75% went to actual payrolls.
And in response to what you said about whataboutism, please the MAGA crowd never stops with that straw man shit, we need to throw the whole lot of them out and get some folks in there that will work in our best interests but you know as well as I do, that will never happen, so you can get as spun up about as you like but it won't change a thing.
^ $73B is a fifth of the most charitable estimate of this giveaway.
Sounds like you're more angry with Congress and the way the money was doled out.
Have we even gotten to the fact that this didn't go through Congress, which possesses the power of the purse?
"And in response to what you said about whataboutism, please the MAGA crowd never stops with that straw man shit"
LOL thanks for the irony of that statement. And I never voted for Trump anyways.
^ You're missing the point I'm not angry but the straw man argument is not from me, and you criticized me for speaking to the PP Program when I didn't bring it up I only offered information that I actually possess after the subject had come up a few times.
As far as holding the colleges accountable for this total lack of respect, of taxpayers money, good luck with that, it would be nice but these politicians get fat honorariums from those Ivy's you ain't gonna get any where with that.
Wallon talked again about authority for forgiving student load debt. As I explained above I think the authority is there as Chief Executive, the original legislation make the government liable for the debt, and then also the only one who can authorize collection. So Biden just had to terminate the collection.
A ways up, motorhead posted
"
I know this is gonna come across as another boomer “get off my lawn” post but this is an awful life lesson to teach these young kids
I graduated with zero student debt. I worked my ass off in hard, but well paying factory jobs each summer. I didn’t go traveling to Europe, I worked. I didn’t go to grad school until I worked long enough to fully fund my studies. My parents were working class, never went to college, so they contributed almost zero, except for allowing me to live at home rent free during the summers
Study, grab some scholarship money, there’s lots of small scholarships out there. Be a man and pay your own way
"
AND
"
“Two thirds of all student debt is held by women. Women are more likely to go to college and, once there, are more likely to major in fields that don't lead to high paying jobs”
Thank you Doc for making that clear. It’s interesting to tie threads together. In the satirical thread about a male room for TUSCL that turned serious, I pointed out that creating safe spaces for girls and young women does more harm than good.
Isolating them at a young age sends a message they can’t compete with men and further drives home the notion they’re not capable of taking STEM classes
"
AND
"
Google the article about the Gainesville Florida couple that paid off $190,000 of student loan debt in 27 months.
They worked their butts off, 15-16 hour days and made sacrifices
This should be the end of the argument
"
Now college costs have skyrocketed, espeically in the private schools, and we have to dismantle this. But motor's example, especially the third on shows what is wrong with the present system, not what is right about it.
A couple paid off $190,000 of college loan debt, and by working 15 and 16 hour days.
Well first of all they should not have had that much debt.
Second, someone going to college is not expecting to be an Uber driver. They are expecting to be starting out on a professional career. Though there are some exceptions, most of the time this means a fixed salary with no extra money for longer hours.
So if they are doing stuff where they get money based on how many hour they put in, something has failed.
Now sure, working longer, harder, and smarter will usually get one favorable consideration for advancement, but it doesn't yield more pay in the short term.
I spent many years in situations where I was putting in as many hours as these people were, but I was doing it for professional advancement, and to maintain leadership in projects, not because it got me more money.
And likewise with moonlighting, if you are building a professional career, that will be seriously held against you as your motives are wrong. You don't care about professional advancement, you just want money. They will tell you to go try AmWay.
So motor's example is of what is wrong, not want is right.
Now his first citation:
Young people today are facing very high costs, and low pay. They do not need anyone lecturing to them about "hard work" or about anything else.
His second citation:
2/3 of college load debt held by women, and majoring in things which do not lead to high paying jobs. First of all college should not cost that much. Second, there are already vastly more people getting degrees which are presumed to lead to high paying jobs than there are positions for, so they end up doing other things. A college degree does not build you a career. If you want that you have to do that yourself, and there will often be little connection to what it says on your college degree(s).
People need to be vigilant, no matter whether they have go to college or not, had loans or do not, have paid them off or not, have a high paying job or not, they are not going to tolerate anyone who tries to lecture too them. And in the work place anyone who did that kind of lecturing or engaged in that kind of talk would be fired, not laid off, fired for cause and not eligible for unemployment.
SJG
Our college system is already fucked up. Hard to imagine it could get worse.
But I know my Organization with its very low cost life long learning supervised independent studies college will benefit.
SJG
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