Also, many industries will never return to where they were. Airlines, Hotels, Cruise Lines, Restaurants, Bars, Movie Theaters, and Shopping Malls will come back slowly and never reach the customer levels they had before.
I saw video of Dave Ramsey making fun of people who had accumulated airline frequent flyer miles. Suckers !
One of the tallest residential buildings in the nation, 111 W. 57th St., is just weeks away from missing its construction deadline, known as an “outside date,” thanks to years of delays and the construction moratorium caused by the COVID-19 pandemic.
If that happens, in-contract buyers could — and likely would thanks to coronavirus fears and an abysmal stock market — walk away with their deposits, leaving the $1.45 billion project empty.
I think that some states will indeed try to restart by May, if for no other reason than the fact that their residents will only tolerate this for so long, especially since the curve has already flattened and is even starting to go on a down slope in a number of places. This is just not sustainable.
With that said, I don't see them opening the flood gates all at once. I'm guessing that this will happen in stages, with certain types of businesses allowed to re-open earlier than others.
I think movie theaters will open first.....in limited markets where the numbers arent as bad maybe. With lots of spacing in between seats sold. No walk up purchases available (for tickets, maybe they still have limited sales for food with social distancing since takeout restaurants are still a go). Then again, the person taking tickets would be screwed and no one would want that job. And everyone would only want to go to the first showing of the day or the theatres would have to be ran in very limited scenarios with cleaning after each showing. And who would want that job? Screw it. Forget what I said about theatres being first to reopen.
Social distancing is still enforced. No sporting events or concerts yet.
I would rather take my chances at a strip club than a sporting event.
Even before the shutdown, as restaurants were reducing capacity to keep separation between people, I think strip clubs were not doing anything differently.
If "restart the economy" means any kind of significant change to the lockdown, that's a pipe dream. If "restart the economy" means that there might be small tentative steps in areas of states that are particularly not hard hit, then maybe -- that hardly deserves the phrase "restart the economy" though.
I was thinking about going back on my birthday, June 28. If the government keeps the clubs closed all through May, though, I may become annoyed that they are overdoing it and not letting me make my own decision about when it is safe for me to go back and not letting the other customers, girls and club staff make their own decision when it is safe for them to go back. So I may end up going the first day they open back up. You have to be aware that there are authoritarian types who will use this as an attempt to increase their power.
i remember when Easter was the date. I see May 21st to May 31st as a probable day that we can go anywhere we want except high hit areas. Also expect prevalence of masks until end of summer
I think May 1 is a reasonable estimate. We should have mass testing by then to identify the at risk population. Maybe even a well tested effective vaccine. Theaters full with a back log slate of movies. May be too late to salvage a baseball season, but full stands going into the fall for college football and NFL. Strip clubs open and everyone turning a blind eye to ITC in an effort to recoup losses. Yep, May 1, 2021 sounds totally reasonable.
May 1st seems a bit too ambitious - sometime in May, maybe, but June seems more doable - the # of new cases seems to remain steady at over 30,000 as well as # of deaths around 2,000 (per day), although NY seems to be improving - too much needs to happen by May 1st including widespread testing - but I wouldn't put it past Trump and/or Republican controlled states to push for an early date.
Before fully reopening, there needs to be a process in place to stop the virus from once again spreading. Social distancing was a blunt instrument, but the only one we had.
The more traditional approach is to use the Public Health Service to quickly track down and test anyone who had contact with a known virus carrier. At the same time, hospitals and nursing homes need to do regular testing on all employees. As the infected are identified, quarantine them.
First, we need to use social distancing to get infections down to a manageable number. Probably a few hundred in a large city.
Then, we need 5-15 minute tests for both virus and anti-body to be available in large quantities.
A few less-populated states like Nebraska or Alaska might be able to do this by sometime in May. Setting this all up for a large, complex situation like N.Y. would take much longer.
The issue that does not seem to have been mentioned is the need for disposable income. OK for a few of you, clubbing is considered a necessary expense, but strippers don't take checks. The clubs will recover AFTER the economy improves, including the jobs picture.
They need a real plan beyond social distancing. It is great that folks are complying with the orders to stay home. But it’s not a viable long term option.
I understand the current need to stop the spread, and to lessen the burden on healthcare and hospitals. But if this happened around Christmas - when most of the country travels to see relatives and to celebrate - I’m sure there would be a major uproar.
I think they need to quarantine the folks who have the virus. They need to track all the infected folks movements, and contacts. I’m sorry, but it’s not realistic to have everyone (healthy, sick, hi risk, low risk, etc) because you want to protect the privacy of those who are infected.
In today’s presser, Birx said that the states that aren’t imposing social distancing are doing contact tracing and quarantining. She said they are watching that closely to learn from it. Seems like an obvious transition from social distancing.
I often feel like I'm in the minority. I don't believe CDC ever intended for the widespread shutdown of businesses that occurred. They have stuck with the same basic recommendations. I'm not being cavalier but the media and well meaning politicians drove decisions that were well beyond what the medical experts were advising. Once fear and panic set in, businesses had optic issues and didn't want to be the outlier.
There is a great video from one of the critical care docs on the frontline in NY. He basically reiterates the basics CDC recommended by explaining how it infects and how it doesn't. I don't have the link but google Dr David Price New York. He takes the hype out and gives the facts.
I am doing take 2 for me personally. I don't see theatres being first to reopen but rather small stores. Movie theaters you are in the same spot and they are indoors-people will cough sneeze etc-people will probably freak out every time someone coughs as well.
Music, movie stores etc. Maybe they don't take trades for awhile or buy used stuff. They will probably require masks as well. Heck maybe they don't even accept cash (card only and customer swipes it, employee doesn't touch). But customers can buy things and then clean them if they want when they get home. They can limit people in the store(s) and most of these stores are big enough to easily social distance. Employees can sanitize things as well.
Economy needs to open back up by may even if little steps like this are taken (small stores). The whole thing of online orders only through amazon etc and then taking forever to deliver is not going to work and isn't working. And pick up at stores (best buy, phone places) only is stupid (for restaurants it is understandable).
We need to accept the fact that COVID-19 is not going anywhere soon. It is highly contagious, we have no herd immunity to it and, as is clear with Florida, it is not as susceptible to warm weather as the flu or the common cold. Also, since our leaders have neither the authority nor the political will to impose true draconian lockdowns like those used in China, it is going to keep spreading.
Now sure, we are already seeing evidence of "flattening the curve", but that is not the same as eliminating it. Also, we simply cannot go on like this for much longer without terrible consequences. And of course once the lockdowns are eased up, it is going to start spreading more rapidly again anyway.
Net-net sooner or later, we're going to have to accept that these lockdowns are not the long-term answer and start thinking about more targeted ways of managing this.
I'm just wondering what happens if once we flatten the curve and open stuff back up, it starts curving up again. Rick mentioned more targeted approaches, that all sounds nice but is it really possible?
Is it possible that the human race might be up shit creek until this vaccine comes out a year later?
I don't give a shit if everything opens on May 1 or not until Christmas Day. I am not going out until I see infection and death rates go way, way down. I am 71 with the beginnings of emphysema. One whiff of the virus and I'm six feet under.
===> "Rick mentioned more targeted approaches, that all sounds nice but is it really possible?"
What's the alternative? We can't stay like this for very long. The federal government cannot replace several trillion per month in GDP, even if its own income wasn't also dropping precipitously due to far lower tax receipts. There are even limits to what the Fed can do as creating more money out of thin air has long-term inflationary and currency devaluation consequences.
We are already starting to hear the hardship stories, with food banks running out of food and 14 million people (and counting) going onto the unemployment rolls. And this is just the beginning...
Even the stop gap measures already enacted by the politicos and the Fed, as truly amazing as they are, will only hold for a short time frame and the price of even that limited coverage is going to be enormous when the new budget deficits are calculated. We are going to have to restart the engine sooner rather than later to avoid catastrophic and long lasting consequences.
As of yesterday there were almost 34,000 new-cases nation-wide and the most-deaths in one day w/ over 2,000 - I think there's a fair-amount of work and tide-turning to be done b/f opening-up, especially w/ no systems in place yet to effectively deal with the virus.
^ A good percentage of those deaths are in a handful of urban areas and are overwhelmingly occurring in certain high risk groups. Hence the opportunity to take a more targeted approach to this.
I definitely agree the lockdown can't last forever -- hard to believe it could go 2 more months, even. The strategy all along has been to flatten the curve to prevent the health system from collapsing, while we identify and reach the conditions by which we can loosen up the lockdown. It's the second part of this -- reaching the conditions by which we loosen the lockdown -- that need some real focus. One of the big conditions has been: once the curve flattens, be in a position to test and trace, pretty much universally. If you care about the economy at all, you should be screaming to hold leadership accountable, and incensed at the lack of progress. South Korea has had testing at scale for how long? How long ago did the president say "anyone who wants a test can get a test"? (spoiler: a month ago) and we're not even close to that yet. I expected the people who were screaming the loudest to re-open the economy quickly, to also be the ones screaming the loudest about holding the president accountable for focusing all efforts on the conditions that would make this possible more quickly. But they tend to be the ones who least hold the president accountable. It doesn't compute. The curves are starting to flatten. How close are we to meeting the conditions to open back up?
Sub, the notion that we are going to have widespread testing in a country this large for a population of 330 million people, in anything close to a timely manner, is unrealistic to say the least. Yelling at our leaders isn't going to make that notion any less ridiculous. We need a much simpler risk based approach than a nationwide track and trace, which btw also has civil liberties implications that don't exist in most Asian countries.
They've talked about at-home tests where one simply pricks their finger and can know the results but IDK how viable this is but one would think it'd be a big-step in testing as many people as possible.
We could start with randomized testing to get a much better grasp of things like the case fatality rate. And, no, catching up with S Korea on a per capita testing rate is not insurmountable.
You don’t need to test everyone. That would be a waste. You need:
- Virus test for anyone showing symptoms
- Virus test for anyone who has been in regular contact with a person who tests positive
- periodic virus test for health care and nursing home workers
- anti-body test for health care and nursing home workers
- anti-body test for randomized sample in each community
assuming the anti-body test is certified by next week, we should have enough tests for the above purpose by May 1. Shortly after that, there should be enough tests to allow healthy people to request an anti-body test through their doctor.
We're never going to get the leadership we need from our clown president or his followers who said thing like "this is all silly -- just go and wash your hands." The way out of this involves testing, tracing, and isolating those that are sick. The governers and the academic community will have to take over. Places like Johns Hopkins and Columbia and people like Bill Gates and Fauci will drive the solution.
It's "antibody" @Mark, without a hyphen. But maybe you're losing focus and haven't been taking your chloroquine.
Herd immunity kicks in when 1/2 to 2/3 of the population recovers from the disease. We're probably nowhere near that. We can either go through another five or ten cycles of social distancing (and destroy the economy) or have a massive increase in testing.
It's worth pointing out that the 1918 Spanish Flu only ended in 1919 when all those infected either died or survived with immunity. However, there are many reports of coronavirus survivors becoming re-infected. I can't speak to the veracity of these reports, but I cannot imagine a world perennially under threat of coronavirus; even as a seasonal illness like the flu and common cold.
On the TODAY show Thursday, Fauci said a large number of antibody tests should be available in a matter of days or weeks, according to the companies developing them.
Dr. Elitza Theel, director of the Infectious Diseases Serology Laboratory at the Mayo Clinic, said laboratories throughout the country have been working to validate and select antibody tests.
We'll eventually come to the realization that all we did was destroy the economy along the road to inevitable. I would liketo thank the Chinese who knew about this when they had their first outbreak in fucking NOVEMBER and then spred it worldwide so they could keep quiet about their dirty disgusting communist system. Yeah, its racist to call this disease after the people who tried to kill others in the name of saving face. They finally took dogs off the food menu and put them on the pet menu. Lets have them all move here like other migrants....
Asian countries are able to compel testing and isolation confinements in ways that we simply cannot. That includes South Korea, which did a whole heck of a lot more than simply accelerate testing distribution. Sometimes there are costs and tradeoffs for living in a free society. I am also skeptical about about how many people are going to voluntarily agree to be tested and tracked when they feel healthy, whether it's a test for the disease or the antibodies.
IMHO ski is right. At some point we're going to realize that firebombing the economy was a bad decision given the disease's inevitability.
The reality is that 80% of the deaths are from people 65 and older and the next big tranche are those in their 50s with other health complications. It also spreads much more rapidly in highly dense urban communities. It has only killed two children, which makes it much less deadlier to them than even the flu. Armed with this knowledge, it is time to consider more targeted and aggressive alternatives to protect the high risk groups while letting the rest of nation get back to school and work.
RickiBoi as an epidemiologist you are pretty much a failure, you keep throwing shit out without regard for the facts, and no context,let’s add some context yes those over 65 are the most likely to die from the COVID 19 virus they’re still only 20-25% of the total death toll that means that 75-80% of the deaths are from people outside that age group.
@twentyfive “,let’s add some context yes those over 65 are the most likely to die from the COVID 19 virus they’re still only 20-25% of the total death toll that means that 75-80% of the deaths are from people outside that age group.”
For FUCK sake! Your posts have reeked of fear of your own death since the start of this shit but this crap you just posted is just too outlandish to let pass. I posted this a week or so ago:
“…reliable analysis of those who have thus far died in Italy show the following: 80% of those who have died were over 70 years of age, 50% of those who have died had THREE OR MORE pre-existing underlying factors (heart disease, diabetes, chronic lung disease, etc) and NOTABLY just 2% of those who have died had no known pre-existing conditions.”
But if that isn’t enough for you here’s some actual numbers as reported by the Colorado state government current as of April 10:
Total deaths to date statewide from C-19: 250
Deaths by age 60 – 69: 25
Deaths by age 70 -79: 65
Deaths by age 80+: 132
That’s 52.8% of all deaths were 80 years or older, 78.8% of all deaths were 70 years old or above and 88.8% were 60 years old or above.
It’s time that you took a break IMO. It’s not healthy for you to even read about this shit.
@Papi_Chulo, as of April 8, 252 healthcare workers in the Philippines had contracted C-19. Of these 152 were doctors and 63 were nurses. There have been at least 12 deaths of doctors from C-19 confirmed by the Department of Health and reports of 17 or more but those are not officially confirmed.
Notably President Duterte has now stopped any more health care workers from leaving the country to work for other countries.
25, here is the source I was relying upon. Some of the stats are lagging, but it is pretty clear that the bulk of the death numbers tallied and categorized by the CDC thus far are in the 65+ range.
I’m not really sure what your problem is but fear of my own death is a stupid thing to impute from my post. We are all getting to worked up over this that’s the truth but that was the point of my thread the other day, at least until RickiBoi decided to make it about my relationship with religion
You sound a lot more fearful than I am, sorry but this debate is being framed really terribly by most, the economy is going to restart when the ability is there to restart no before, Trump made this a reality by making sure he has no blame assigned to him, by deferring all decisions about closing things down to the governor’s as a result he no longer has the authority to open this country back up. I don’t think you realize that there is no longer any central authority in this country, our federal system is collapsing and the actions of our president is a large cause of this.
All this fixation over the number of cases. Who the fuck cares how many 40 y.o. and under people get this? It is less far less deadly than even the flu for them. In fact, the more the merrier if it washes this shit out faster and helps us develop a herd immunity.
Let's take aggressive steps to protect the elderly and other high risk groups and get the productive members of society back to work. It's not like most of those high risk people are working now anyway. There's also no reason to keep kids out of school when most of them don't even get any symptoms.
Our response to this has been panic first, think second. At some point we will be forced to switch gears as there are likely 5+ people who have it already for every case that has been confirmed by testing. It is here and it's not going away, so now we need a more rational approach.
A vaccine against coronavirus could be ready as soon as September, the British scientist leading one of the world’s most advanced efforts has said.
Sarah Gilbert, professor of vaccinology at Oxford University, told The Times she was “80 per cent confident” that the vaccine being developed by her team would work, with human trials due to begin in the next fortnight.
^ Let's hope so Mark, but there are so many variables that I doubt we can count on it, nor can we keep the economy shut down that long. Then there are the logistical realities of trying to produce enough and then disburse it all across the nation.
Also, all of that doesn't even consider the high level of resistance that young people will have to taking a new and mostly unproven vaccine for something that isn't very deadly to them in the first place. You had better believe that I have zero intention of lining up my three young children for a brand new vaccine with unknown long-term side effects just to prevent something that wouldn't likely hurt them anyway.
I just saw a Scott Adams interview where he, once again, made an observation that no one else has commented on. By closing down the country, it’s likely that the Trump business empire will not survive. As a NY landlord and hotelier, it’s hard to see how he avoids bankruptcy. And, it’s certain he understood that when decided he needed to bend the curve to save lives.
@jascoi "I hope by Cinco de Mayo Tijuana is open again."
I wish you well but I think you are probably shit out of luck. But you probably have a better shot at it than I do. Everywhere I want/need to go is closed down hard – closed borders, closed hotels, closed businesses, curfews, and no alcohol sales. I check every day and I’ll be on the first plane flying when given the chance but it is going to be a while.
BTW I heard from an acquaintance this morning who is stranded in a bad place that is going to be a much worse place very soon. He is trying to get to his GF’s place in Switzerland but their borders are closed. He thinks he can get into Italy and then plans to hike across the Alps to sneak in. “Sound of Music” in reverse lol. Interesting times…
"... By closing down the country, it’s likely that the Trump business empire will not survive ..."
That has crossed my mind, as well as many people I assume - it's just something one can't prove and it's probably not kosher to make that accusation in the current-environment, and perhaps why it hasn't been mentioned.
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I think that some states will indeed try to restart by May, if for no other reason than the fact that their residents will only tolerate this for so long, especially since the curve has already flattened and is even starting to go on a down slope in a number of places. This is just not sustainable.
With that said, I don't see them opening the flood gates all at once. I'm guessing that this will happen in stages, with certain types of businesses allowed to re-open earlier than others.
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...with one caveat. It seems that a handful of red states are determined to fuck what little economy they may have left by extending stay at home orders through the end of May. Fuck 'em. I hope the Republicans hold firm and refuse to give them any more money. If those Governors and their voters are too stupid to do it on their own then maybe they need to be starved open.
Polls state 70% of people feel it's too soon for a complete opening - non-essential businesses may get a bit of business if they open up but likely nowhere near pre-Corona levels
@Papi: Seems like most people understand what happened to the coal workers back in the day... why go back to an "essential" minimum wage job when you know that the people asking you to do it aren't sharing the risk or leading by example? Why did the freaking LA Lakers get millions in free money from the government? Why is there going to be a $500B bailout for big businesses? Is that capitalism or socialism?
Why don't they offer that money as a reward to whoever comes up with scalable testing and a treatment that doesn't involve chuffing Chlorox? Do that and maybe we can ALL go back to what we've been missing...
Positive results announced today for Remdesivir. Still needs a lot more testing. Even if things go well, we’re months away from it being available in quantity to the general public. And, while it reduces mortality, it’s not a 100% cure. Still, this may be the game changer that opens things up completely in the Fall.
Open up on May 1. No problem. Trump, who is a very stable genius and who was Dean of the College of Science at Trump University, has found the cure: inject or ingest bleach.
@Papi: While I'm not buying the 70% number, I'm not surprised that a majority favor a longer shutdown right now. When you add up: (1) retirees collecting government benefits; (2) white collar workers who still have jobs; and (3) blue collar workers who are making more on unemployment than they did while working, it probably totals up to a sizable majority of the population.
Maybe we should cut their payments off for a few weeks and see if they feel the same way. We'll also see if they are the same people (minus the retirees) railing about job losses and a bad economy 6 months from now.
^ Your projections are off in the State of Florida, less than 8% of unemployment claims have been processed let alone been paid. I say don’t pay the state employees until those that are entitled to benefits receive them.
And your hero Trump wants to order the meat packers back to work. Well a substantial majority have refused to return to Tyson’s plants
I have seen a report that 65% of the stimulus money has not yet been sent to those promised.
The PPP program has been subverted large companies and organizations like the LA Lakers have depleted a second round of funding.
@rick - of course a subset of that is a generation of mcmansion raised SJW's that have never had to pay a bill with their biggest concern are the feelings of LGBTQXYZ community
Every cowardly meat packer who refuses to return to work should be fired and replaced. We simply cannot have our food supply chain broken because people refuse to help get it from the farms to our tables. Farmers are literally destroying crops, euthanizing meat animals and dumping milk and eggs all for lack of ability to get them packaged and distributed for store sale. In the meantime, our supermarkets are talking about upcoming shortages.
I agree about the PPP loans. This was poorly constructed from the outset, as I pointed out in another thread in which we exchanged posts. When this is all said and done, companies that misrepresented their need for the money are going to be sorry they did so as the IG and politicians are already dreaming up ways to audit and punish them.
BTW why are they cowardly that’s the kind of shit that you do that starts flame wars, they didn’t sign up for this they have a right to feel safe in their workplace, and just out of curiosity aren’t these the same plants that not too long ago Trump was threatening to send ICE I th deport a lot of those workers, you can’t have it both ways, if they don’t show up for work there will be problems with the food supply, no question, and for the record how do you propose to replace these workers RickiBoi.
^ I would propose replacing them by any means necessary. The Defense Production Act gives the President and extraordinary amount of latitude in managing these issues.
As far as the rest of that crybaby nonsense, the virus isn't even overly dangerous for most of the people who are using it as an excuse to stay home. Sorry, but we cannot let panicky twats and man-bitches shut down the food supply for over 330 million people because of irrational fear. This isn't the bubonic plague ffs.
Really crybaby nonsense, no one is comparing it to the bubonic plague except you, they have the right to not work if they chose, I doubt you could staff up a plant and have it running without the co-operation of the employees
So go ahead and fire them, Mr Trump and Mr Pence will have an honest job to go to after they are voted out in November.
No one is required to work in this country and the meatr packers can quit. The idea Trump was threatening people here legally with ICE is why the minute any democrat or progressive says anything I stop listening. Every fucking illegal needs to get out. If meat packers need $25.00 an houir to risk working than the open market says pay them, Ice deports illegals only, not people who belong here.
Posts like that tell me you don’t have much real world experience running a business where you need skilled and trained people to operate if you ran a business the way you are describing you’d be out of business in no time.
25, the comparison the the bubonic plague is apt as it highlights the relative absurdity of fearful behavior by relatively young people with little to no risk of dying from it.
I also hear you on the skilled labor piece and I'm not oblivious to it. But where there's a will, there's a way, especially with a President that has essentially unlimited power and resources to make it happen. Even plants that are running less efficiently will be better than those that are completely shut down.
As far as political blowback, I very much doubt that many Americans are going to have much sympathy for those who are responsible for food rotting in the fields while grocery shelves go empty. See below since you obviously missed it before. It is simply intolerable.
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Farmers are literally destroying crops, euthanizing meat animals and dumping milk and eggs all for lack of ability to get them packaged and distributed for store sale. In the meantime, our supermarkets are talking about upcoming shortages.
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Someone set me straight on what the exec order said, but the tape of Trump I saw had him saying he was ordering that the Tyson foods ownership was going to get immunity from lawsuits by employees for claims that they got sick going to work. If I heard that correctly, he’s not ordering anyone back to work. But, he is protecting the business owners and putting the risk on the employees. Stay home when your plant is open and you’re probably not eligible for unemployment. Or, go to work to make minimum wage or maybe $20 an hour in exchange for being in a place linked to major concentrations of a virus which most likely won’t hurt you, but if you’re unlucky you may be hospitalized with something for which there is no cure. Or you may bring it home to your family which increases your risk by 4x or more. All this while you trust the owner of the plant to do the right thing while standing behind a shield of immunity ordered by the Orange Idiot.
Typical impulsive action without any prep or forethought by him designed to make a splash but really not solving the problem.
>Typical impulsive action without any prep or forethought by him designed to make a splash but really not solving the problem.<
Essentially my point @JimmyMcnulty
I hear you 25 and Jimmy, but maybe you missed this, twice now:
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Farmers are literally destroying crops, euthanizing meat animals and dumping milk and eggs all for lack of ability to get them packaged and distributed for store sale. In the meantime, our supermarkets are talking about upcoming shortages.
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This simply cannot be allowed to continue. All the sympathy for workers who will most likely get the sniffles, if anything, doesn't change the fact that without food processing plants, there will be no food for us to eat. And if his protection against liability is not enough to force workers back to actually working for their paychecks, then he has the authority under the Defense Production Act to take more drastic steps.
w.r.t. meat-packers, they are essential workers - having said this, looks like no one (plant owners, government) has done much to protect these folks - IDK much of how a meat-packing/processing plant works, but perhaps a workable middle-ground is for these plants to work at less than full-tilt to allow more protection for workers - yes operating less than full-tilt will likely cause some shortages, but better than having to shut-down plants and have dozens perhaps hundreds of folks die.
I saw that last week, less than 4 miles from my house there is a farm that is selling boxes of 25 pounds of veggies for $10 per box, you drive into the parking lot and there is a packing house and a truck depot, people are getting a bargain and the owner is getting some cash to pay his employees, and at least a portion of his unsold crop is helping people out.
But RickiBoi, that is the owner making a decision not the POTUS trying to bully some food supplier, and as Papi described above, working conditions in many of these plants are pretty dismal and need improvement.
Point is simple, push too hard and watch the American economy crash and burn, especially if you disregard the experts, and I mean the experts, not those ass kissers that Mr. Trump has surrounded himself with.
I was typing when you posted governor Rick, but your point is not convincing. I agree we need our food. I agree closing the plants is a problem. What you didn’t offer was a solution except to call the workers names. We don’t condone slavery in this country. We’re capitalists (despite the PPP and CARES Act). Trump didn’t solve the problem. He gave the plant owners liability protection but did nothing for the plant workers who are taking all the risk for very low pay.
PS - tv coverage is saying Trump “ordered the plants stay open.” That’s a little different than what I heard yesterday, but likewise still does not solve the problem of risk to the workers.
===> "Point is simple, push too hard and watch the American economy crash and burn, especially if you disregard the experts, and I mean the experts, not those ass kissers that Mr. Trump has surrounded himself with."
You mean the experts who have been telling us that our food supply chain is about to crumble, including the farmers who are destroying countless millions of pounds of food that cannot be packaged, the supermarkets who are saying that shortages are coming and even the plant operators themselves? 😉
I have indeed been listening to all of them and it simply cannot be allowed to continue.
Ohio is "opening" May first, but I wouldn't call it an opening. Restaurants are still going to be take out only. Hospitals will now allow non-essential procedures. Construction, Manufacturing and Distribution companies will reopen, but with a shitload of restrictions. Offices can also reopen, but also with a shitload of restrictions. May 12 is retail, again with a shitload of restrictions. All the restrictions seem to be even more restrictive than lockdown is.
Be patient on the re-openings. The states have to set up their testing capacity. So even though they probably want to open quicker, they have to do it relatively slowly. The contact tracing is the key to get to Phase 3. Some states are not close to being able to do that. But most states will be into Phase 3 sometime in June.
Thge "experts" on both sides have only been wrong fucking 95% of the time. The word expert is literally now the most meaningless word in the english language. The same number of people are going to die from this regardless of what we do so all the lockdown is doing is killing different people to save the very old, the very fat, the very ill and people who never gave a shit abouttheir health until now.
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I doubt very much or very many will even reopen in May and certainly not in the beginning of May
I saw video of Dave Ramsey making fun of people who had accumulated airline frequent flyer miles. Suckers !
One of the tallest residential buildings in the nation, 111 W. 57th St., is just weeks away from missing its construction deadline, known as an “outside date,” thanks to years of delays and the construction moratorium caused by the COVID-19 pandemic.
If that happens, in-contract buyers could — and likely would thanks to coronavirus fears and an abysmal stock market — walk away with their deposits, leaving the $1.45 billion project empty.
With that said, I don't see them opening the flood gates all at once. I'm guessing that this will happen in stages, with certain types of businesses allowed to re-open earlier than others.
Social distancing is still enforced. No sporting events or concerts yet.
I would rather take my chances at a strip club than a sporting event.
Even before the shutdown, as restaurants were reducing capacity to keep separation between people, I think strip clubs were not doing anything differently.
The more traditional approach is to use the Public Health Service to quickly track down and test anyone who had contact with a known virus carrier. At the same time, hospitals and nursing homes need to do regular testing on all employees. As the infected are identified, quarantine them.
First, we need to use social distancing to get infections down to a manageable number. Probably a few hundred in a large city.
Then, we need 5-15 minute tests for both virus and anti-body to be available in large quantities.
A few less-populated states like Nebraska or Alaska might be able to do this by sometime in May. Setting this all up for a large, complex situation like N.Y. would take much longer.
I understand the current need to stop the spread, and to lessen the burden on healthcare and hospitals. But if this happened around Christmas - when most of the country travels to see relatives and to celebrate - I’m sure there would be a major uproar.
I think they need to quarantine the folks who have the virus. They need to track all the infected folks movements, and contacts. I’m sorry, but it’s not realistic to have everyone (healthy, sick, hi risk, low risk, etc) because you want to protect the privacy of those who are infected.
There is a great video from one of the critical care docs on the frontline in NY. He basically reiterates the basics CDC recommended by explaining how it infects and how it doesn't. I don't have the link but google Dr David Price New York. He takes the hype out and gives the facts.
Music, movie stores etc. Maybe they don't take trades for awhile or buy used stuff. They will probably require masks as well. Heck maybe they don't even accept cash (card only and customer swipes it, employee doesn't touch). But customers can buy things and then clean them if they want when they get home. They can limit people in the store(s) and most of these stores are big enough to easily social distance. Employees can sanitize things as well.
Economy needs to open back up by may even if little steps like this are taken (small stores). The whole thing of online orders only through amazon etc and then taking forever to deliver is not going to work and isn't working. And pick up at stores (best buy, phone places) only is stupid (for restaurants it is understandable).
Now sure, we are already seeing evidence of "flattening the curve", but that is not the same as eliminating it. Also, we simply cannot go on like this for much longer without terrible consequences. And of course once the lockdowns are eased up, it is going to start spreading more rapidly again anyway.
Net-net sooner or later, we're going to have to accept that these lockdowns are not the long-term answer and start thinking about more targeted ways of managing this.
Is it possible that the human race might be up shit creek until this vaccine comes out a year later?
What's the alternative? We can't stay like this for very long. The federal government cannot replace several trillion per month in GDP, even if its own income wasn't also dropping precipitously due to far lower tax receipts. There are even limits to what the Fed can do as creating more money out of thin air has long-term inflationary and currency devaluation consequences.
We are already starting to hear the hardship stories, with food banks running out of food and 14 million people (and counting) going onto the unemployment rolls. And this is just the beginning...
+ 1 in 10 deaths in the Philippines are medical workers
+ in African countries, there are only 5 ICU beds per million people
One can only imagine how much worse it is in poor(er) countries.
- Virus test for anyone showing symptoms
- Virus test for anyone who has been in regular contact with a person who tests positive
- periodic virus test for health care and nursing home workers
- anti-body test for health care and nursing home workers
- anti-body test for randomized sample in each community
assuming the anti-body test is certified by next week, we should have enough tests for the above purpose by May 1. Shortly after that, there should be enough tests to allow healthy people to request an anti-body test through their doctor.
The antibody test doesn’t exist yet. There’s nothing to certify.
Herd immunity kicks in when 1/2 to 2/3 of the population recovers from the disease. We're probably nowhere near that. We can either go through another five or ten cycles of social distancing (and destroy the economy) or have a massive increase in testing.
Dr. Elitza Theel, director of the Infectious Diseases Serology Laboratory at the Mayo Clinic, said laboratories throughout the country have been working to validate and select antibody tests.
IMHO ski is right. At some point we're going to realize that firebombing the economy was a bad decision given the disease's inevitability.
The reality is that 80% of the deaths are from people 65 and older and the next big tranche are those in their 50s with other health complications. It also spreads much more rapidly in highly dense urban communities. It has only killed two children, which makes it much less deadlier to them than even the flu. Armed with this knowledge, it is time to consider more targeted and aggressive alternatives to protect the high risk groups while letting the rest of nation get back to school and work.
For FUCK sake! Your posts have reeked of fear of your own death since the start of this shit but this crap you just posted is just too outlandish to let pass. I posted this a week or so ago:
“…reliable analysis of those who have thus far died in Italy show the following: 80% of those who have died were over 70 years of age, 50% of those who have died had THREE OR MORE pre-existing underlying factors (heart disease, diabetes, chronic lung disease, etc) and NOTABLY just 2% of those who have died had no known pre-existing conditions.”
But if that isn’t enough for you here’s some actual numbers as reported by the Colorado state government current as of April 10:
Total deaths to date statewide from C-19: 250
Deaths by age 60 – 69: 25
Deaths by age 70 -79: 65
Deaths by age 80+: 132
That’s 52.8% of all deaths were 80 years or older, 78.8% of all deaths were 70 years old or above and 88.8% were 60 years old or above.
It’s time that you took a break IMO. It’s not healthy for you to even read about this shit.
Notably President Duterte has now stopped any more health care workers from leaving the country to work for other countries.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/COVID…
What's actually amazing is how this thing seems to be so much LESS deadly than the flu for young people.
You sound a lot more fearful than I am, sorry but this debate is being framed really terribly by most, the economy is going to restart when the ability is there to restart no before, Trump made this a reality by making sure he has no blame assigned to him, by deferring all decisions about closing things down to the governor’s as a result he no longer has the authority to open this country back up. I don’t think you realize that there is no longer any central authority in this country, our federal system is collapsing and the actions of our president is a large cause of this.
Let's take aggressive steps to protect the elderly and other high risk groups and get the productive members of society back to work. It's not like most of those high risk people are working now anyway. There's also no reason to keep kids out of school when most of them don't even get any symptoms.
Our response to this has been panic first, think second. At some point we will be forced to switch gears as there are likely 5+ people who have it already for every case that has been confirmed by testing. It is here and it's not going away, so now we need a more rational approach.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/COVID…
A vaccine against coronavirus could be ready as soon as September, the British scientist leading one of the world’s most advanced efforts has said.
Sarah Gilbert, professor of vaccinology at Oxford University, told The Times she was “80 per cent confident” that the vaccine being developed by her team would work, with human trials due to begin in the next fortnight.
Also, all of that doesn't even consider the high level of resistance that young people will have to taking a new and mostly unproven vaccine for something that isn't very deadly to them in the first place. You had better believe that I have zero intention of lining up my three young children for a brand new vaccine with unknown long-term side effects just to prevent something that wouldn't likely hurt them anyway.
I wish you well but I think you are probably shit out of luck. But you probably have a better shot at it than I do. Everywhere I want/need to go is closed down hard – closed borders, closed hotels, closed businesses, curfews, and no alcohol sales. I check every day and I’ll be on the first plane flying when given the chance but it is going to be a while.
BTW I heard from an acquaintance this morning who is stranded in a bad place that is going to be a much worse place very soon. He is trying to get to his GF’s place in Switzerland but their borders are closed. He thinks he can get into Italy and then plans to hike across the Alps to sneak in. “Sound of Music” in reverse lol. Interesting times…
That has crossed my mind, as well as many people I assume - it's just something one can't prove and it's probably not kosher to make that accusation in the current-environment, and perhaps why it hasn't been mentioned.
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I think that some states will indeed try to restart by May, if for no other reason than the fact that their residents will only tolerate this for so long, especially since the curve has already flattened and is even starting to go on a down slope in a number of places. This is just not sustainable.
With that said, I don't see them opening the flood gates all at once. I'm guessing that this will happen in stages, with certain types of businesses allowed to re-open earlier than others.
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...with one caveat. It seems that a handful of red states are determined to fuck what little economy they may have left by extending stay at home orders through the end of May. Fuck 'em. I hope the Republicans hold firm and refuse to give them any more money. If those Governors and their voters are too stupid to do it on their own then maybe they need to be starved open.
Why don't they offer that money as a reward to whoever comes up with scalable testing and a treatment that doesn't involve chuffing Chlorox? Do that and maybe we can ALL go back to what we've been missing...
Maybe we should cut their payments off for a few weeks and see if they feel the same way. We'll also see if they are the same people (minus the retirees) railing about job losses and a bad economy 6 months from now.
And your hero Trump wants to order the meat packers back to work. Well a substantial majority have refused to return to Tyson’s plants
I have seen a report that 65% of the stimulus money has not yet been sent to those promised.
The PPP program has been subverted large companies and organizations like the LA Lakers have depleted a second round of funding.
Every cowardly meat packer who refuses to return to work should be fired and replaced. We simply cannot have our food supply chain broken because people refuse to help get it from the farms to our tables. Farmers are literally destroying crops, euthanizing meat animals and dumping milk and eggs all for lack of ability to get them packaged and distributed for store sale. In the meantime, our supermarkets are talking about upcoming shortages.
I agree about the PPP loans. This was poorly constructed from the outset, as I pointed out in another thread in which we exchanged posts. When this is all said and done, companies that misrepresented their need for the money are going to be sorry they did so as the IG and politicians are already dreaming up ways to audit and punish them.
As far as the rest of that crybaby nonsense, the virus isn't even overly dangerous for most of the people who are using it as an excuse to stay home. Sorry, but we cannot let panicky twats and man-bitches shut down the food supply for over 330 million people because of irrational fear. This isn't the bubonic plague ffs.
So go ahead and fire them, Mr Trump and Mr Pence will have an honest job to go to after they are voted out in November.
I also hear you on the skilled labor piece and I'm not oblivious to it. But where there's a will, there's a way, especially with a President that has essentially unlimited power and resources to make it happen. Even plants that are running less efficiently will be better than those that are completely shut down.
As far as political blowback, I very much doubt that many Americans are going to have much sympathy for those who are responsible for food rotting in the fields while grocery shelves go empty. See below since you obviously missed it before. It is simply intolerable.
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Farmers are literally destroying crops, euthanizing meat animals and dumping milk and eggs all for lack of ability to get them packaged and distributed for store sale. In the meantime, our supermarkets are talking about upcoming shortages.
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Typical impulsive action without any prep or forethought by him designed to make a splash but really not solving the problem.
Essentially my point @JimmyMcnulty
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Farmers are literally destroying crops, euthanizing meat animals and dumping milk and eggs all for lack of ability to get them packaged and distributed for store sale. In the meantime, our supermarkets are talking about upcoming shortages.
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This simply cannot be allowed to continue. All the sympathy for workers who will most likely get the sniffles, if anything, doesn't change the fact that without food processing plants, there will be no food for us to eat. And if his protection against liability is not enough to force workers back to actually working for their paychecks, then he has the authority under the Defense Production Act to take more drastic steps.
But RickiBoi, that is the owner making a decision not the POTUS trying to bully some food supplier, and as Papi described above, working conditions in many of these plants are pretty dismal and need improvement.
Point is simple, push too hard and watch the American economy crash and burn, especially if you disregard the experts, and I mean the experts, not those ass kissers that Mr. Trump has surrounded himself with.
PS - tv coverage is saying Trump “ordered the plants stay open.” That’s a little different than what I heard yesterday, but likewise still does not solve the problem of risk to the workers.
You mean the experts who have been telling us that our food supply chain is about to crumble, including the farmers who are destroying countless millions of pounds of food that cannot be packaged, the supermarkets who are saying that shortages are coming and even the plant operators themselves? 😉
I have indeed been listening to all of them and it simply cannot be allowed to continue.