Providing the Rope

IMHO once they are a certain distance along in their life problems ONLY a VERY MAJOR life crisis MIGHT turn around their lives. Whether or not you pay them for Sex matters not IMO. Their change has to be motivated from within, NOT from without.

Are you in this hobby to rehabilitate stripperes or to get laid?

He is perhaps displaying a conscience, something that is apparently not present in 100% of members here.

Are you going to consider the issue, or try to pretend it doesn't exist by substituting some lame false dichotomy?

Unless you're some zen master, save your troubles and build an orphanages, school houses, and hospitals in Africa, most of these whores are a lost cause, but you can impact people early by volunteering in other aspects so it doesn't come to that.

You can't save the world, but you can make it bit better.

P4P girls have told me about going to rehab, ditching pimp boyfriends. Yeah, they could be lying, but I don't see the proof that they're all lost causes. Even if some are lost causes, makes me feel like a vulture to use their situation for my own entertainment.

BTW not sure of the usefulness of the word "whore". Seems as useful as the n-word as a synonym for Black.

Ilbbaicnl, I feel what your saying but why is that so different from stripping. High mileage strippers are just a piece of clothing from Bj's or FS and they tend to have the same stories.

It all depends on how you look at it. I prefer to think I'm helping single mothers make a decent living.

If you feel you're doing something wrong, why do you continue to do it?

Ilbbaicnl, if you feel that way then don't do it. My perspective is that I am not these girls' father and I am not responsible for how they live their lives. They are grown adults and can live how they choose.

The truth of the matter is that we really don't know what the money is used for once it leaves our pockets. Now I'm pretty sure that some of the girls that I deal with are using at least some of the money to feed and clothe their kids, though I am also sure that some are also using the $$$ for entertainment purposes. Whatever - I don't really care. If services were rendered, the money is no longer mine and they can do with it what they please.

" If services were rendered, the money is no longer mine and they can do with it what they please."

What? Freedom and Responsibility? No, we need to nanny these poor souls with good government (and forum) regulation! Shine up that armor, white knight!

ilbbaicnl; if that is the way you feel you have the wrong hobby. Some are likely playing on your sympathies looking for a pity tip. Some are in a bad situation that is not their choice. Many are young and dumb looking for a good time and have locked themselves into the easy-money party cycle. While it is hard not to feel sorry for some of the dancers most dancers are their own worst enemy. Until the person decides that they want help they can't be helped.

Ilbbaicnl:

These girls are in a sexually oriented business. I do feel bad for them, and I do respect them as much as I can, but having sex with nice guys is just a natural outcome of the job for many of them.

Like Rick said, some of that money goes toward legitimate purposes.

Stripclubs and strippers belong to an immoral underworld. If you feel you shouldn't participate, which we really shouldn't, then don't give these girls money. But I suspect your addiction, like ours, will finally overrule your morals.

“… Are you in this hobby to rehabilitate stripperes or to get laid? …”

LOL – many have tried (rehabilitating dancers) – and probably 99% have failed!

Do what you feel is right. I don't do extras and I don't buy more than a couple of lap dances from drug users, convicts, for this reason. Let them hit bottom on their own or let some other user help them dig their hole.

You're not going to get much sympathy from many here as I imagine they are here from being burned by women and no longer care about them.

shadow, did you say "stripperes" with a fake French Canadian accent?

A. 95% of the time, you really don't know what their situation is. You may think you have a really solid grasp of it, but you don't.

B. No matter who you get extras, lapdances, otc, etc. from you are probably contributing to some of the negative things you listed.

C. If you don't give them the money, some one else will. Or they'll do something worse to get it. Maybe not a good reason, but something to consider.

looneylarry - Yes. Just in case farmerart reads it. :)

By no means, am I advocating trying to help a sex worker. I did that once (gave her a place to stay and she disappeared with some of my things and cash) and made a note not to repeate it. I'm just saying, don't be an enabler. If she has a drug problem, dependant man problem, etc. do like shadowcat, get your blow job and drop her. Punish or remove yourself from negative behavior and reward positive behavior, ie she gets a vanilla job or passes her classes, spend more, etc.

Tie a noose and jump

Seriously, if you think you're doing something wrong, then stop doing it. I don't get what the big deal is. Fortunately, I'm not doing anything wrong or immoral, so I don't have to worry about feeling bad about it.

Just remember, if good people don't have sex with strippers, that will only leave bad people having sex with strippers. Just doing my part to add words of wisdom. :)

I'm surprised by how many people are pretending not to get ibbaicini's point. Is it okay to hand a depressed person a revolver because ultimately it is their decision whether to pull the trigger on themselves or not? How about saying "jump! jump!" if he is standing on the ledge of a building? Is it okay to swindle to schizophrenics out of money? I think nearly all strippers are crazy in some way (depressed, cluster B personality disorders, etc.) Of the few who aren't, very unlikely you are getting mileage from them. I same I'm surprised, but I see it all the time. People not thinking to deeply about something if that thought would lead them to really what they are doing is wrong.

The customers aren't the drug. There are a lot of people doing shit they don't want to do but do nothing about it.

"I'm surprised by how many people are pretending not to get ibbaicini's point."

I think that we all get his point, we just don't agree with the underlying premise that we are responsible for a dancer's actions. How are we supposed to know what she is doing with the money? Also, even if she is using some of it for drugs, how will her life be improved if she is deprived of money and cannot pay her rent or buy food? How is forcing her onto the streets the "moral" choice?

And to take the enabling theory a step further, should I now also conduct drug screening on my plumber, lawn guy, mechanic, etc., before I pay them for services rendered? After all, I am certainly enabling them to buy drugs as well.

I don't recommend trying to help or even understand the lives of these crazy women.

I believe if you try and white knight too hard, they will either resent you or take advantage of you and leave you high and dry.

Strippers come and go all the time, so do customers. Neither of us is that special.

To Rick, you can tell when someone has an addiction problem - needy, in a hurry, increased dishonesty, false intrest, etc. and if it's drug related physical symptoms related to the drug. A drug screening is only nessisary for those who aren't looking or legal reasons for a company.

Two, this is the US and these are Anerican girls. Chances are they have family to fall back on, and if not they will either correct themselves or hit the streets as you say. It's not that short of a road to the bottom and cutting her off early while she can still turn around, might help.

Why is it our responsibility? Because we our a society and we as individuals should do what we can to improve the lives of our pack within the means of not hurting ourself. And at the very minimal effort of that is not doing business with those who cannot control or are worsening their lives. If someone else does it for you, that's sad. But at least you were not contributing to the downfall of a member of our people.

Again, get a better class of stripper. They are out there, they just may not fuck you bareback.

I have met countless strippers that do not fall into the stereotype of out of control addict. I tend to spend the majority of my time with them, not the addicts.

There have been so many stories about PL's hanging out with loser strippers.

Like Doc says, get a better type of stripper.

Doc, you've just exceeded the previous record for how many different bullshit opinions can be offered as statements of fact in a single post. ;)

We have no way of knowing with certainty who is or is not abusing drugs. Yes there are the all too obvious ones, but there are also plenty who hide it well. A LOT of these girls are doing something and the use of certain substances, most notably coke, is hard to spot. Shit, back in the day, when I was fucking hot strippers while your uncle Jimmy was still diddling you in your Spider Man undies, coke was essentially a requirement if one wanted to take a dancer OTC.

And as far as the family comment, how many of these girls do you think would be stripping if they had wholesome families to turn to? Most of these girls come from fucked up homes. That was a ridiculously ignorant comment dude.

And you can keep your Great Society - I live in a place where people take personal responsibility and don't appreciate others trying to tell them how to live. I do indeed steer clear of the obviously drugged, for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with any white knight tendencies, but I'm not playing detective with the girls who I deal with. Frankly, what they do with the money that they earn is none of my business.

You can conduct business in a productive way or a destructive way. Considering where the state of the nation is, I think we'd all agree on leaning heavily on the former. I'm a libertarian and do not advocate government interference. I'm talking about individual business and who you associate with and how that betters your own life and those you interact with and if we all did this we'd need no excess interference from the government.

I'm not even talking charity, in the case of strip clubs handing out unwarranted tips or any tip beyond the tips for good service is destructive charity. Tips to get rid of unwanted dancers or negative behavior of any kind only encourages that bad behavior. In the worse case scenario a stripper with a problem.

Now, I'll give you a pass since I'm guessing you don't see a stripper more than once and it takes some time to develop a relationship with one. And no, you can't know the details in certainty, but you should know damn well whether they are a trustworthy or not, if they are a train about to derail, and know it soon. In many reviews and discussions, you pro's talk about a sixth 'spidey sense that tells you whether a stripper will put out or not. Well, that same sense should spot the runaway express!

About the families; several hide stripping from their family, boyfriends, etc. There is someone out there they can turn to. It's not as dire as you make it, and that negative mentality may work to negotiate cheap sex, but it's not improving business, and it's not reality.

I'm not talking about extras, I don't do them. But, I do know at least one escort and one in club provider who vacations well, saves well, keeps friends, and has a general, positive, healthy attitude most times I see either. So that's not the problem.

I'm not talking about drugs, I smoke pot fairly often. I've done coke with strippers a few times, though it's not my thing. I did know one stripper who it became a problem, she started hitting me up, I stopped talking to her. Has her life improved? Not sure. But I wasn't going to be there and reward her bad behavior. On the other hand I know a few more that have done coke and dropped it. Several more Molly. Have some fallen out? I'm sure, but I didn't contribute. So, drugs alone aren't the problem.

It's when either have become such a problem that enjoyment, need, honesty, and integrity are compromised that it is a problem and you shouldn't contribute.

I'm not saying you have to be a white knight, in fact don't. Your excessive tips, paying bills and housing a dancer to get laid is only hurting yourself, the girl, and it's just bad for business. It raises expectations.

Just don't be a black knight -- bring coke to an addict, cut down prices and push extras on a desperate provider just to get laid. It may make it cheaper, but it ruins the morale and quality of strippers. It's bad business.

You know your situation, do what's best. Conduct your business in a way that improves the industry rather than degrade it.

I just realized by addressing my post 'To Rick' it came off as a personal attack. I'm not. I don't know you personally or your interactions with strippers. It's your statement I was attacking:

'we just don't agree with the underlying premise that we are responsible for a dancer's actions. '

Yes you are, as with anyone you pay, as a company is responsible for it's employees, you are responsible for those you you are involved and continue to associate with.

How are we supposed to know what she is doing with the money?

It's not so much the details as the big picture, and how the culmination of those details effect character and reliability.

Also, even if she is using some of it for drugs, how will her life be improved if she is deprived of money and cannot pay her rent or buy food? How is forcing her onto the streets the "moral" choice?

Pull out before it gets so bad they trade drugs for food and shelter. Someone that bad off you will spot a mile away and should avoid.

And to take the enabling theory a step further, should I now also conduct drug screening on my plumber, lawn guy, mechanic, etc., before I pay them for services rendered? After all, I am certainly enabling them to buy drugs as well.

No drug tests are unnecessary. Regardless of what causes them to act in an unprofessional, potentially destructive manner, you should stop doing business with them.

Strippers should be treated no differently, just because they have a vagina. That's being sexist.

Shit. I just ruined my entire argument with that sexist joke. Of course you can be sexist to strippers. A man can't do that job. So treat them like ladies, but also treat them as professional as you would anyone else you conduct business with, which means not providing the rope for your gain and their, and the industry as a whole,'s loss.

Dude, stop already. Please. I'm getting embarrassed for you just reading that stuff.

First, I see many strippers several times per year and some even year over year. That is what happens when one spends 80+ nights per year in clubs, including a local one. Perhaps the strippers that you see in Dallas come from the Partridge Family, but the ones that I deal with often, including one in Dallas, come from bad family situations and most of them have kids of their own now.

Second, they are not "employees", merely service providers. I am no more responsible for how my lawn guy lives than I am for what the stripper does when she is not with me.

The rest of that was just circular nonsense that did little more than regurgitate the same theories, but just in different - and sometimes incoherent - ways.

Dude, have at it if you want to play Captain Save-A-Hoe, but don't foist that nonsense upon the rest of us.

As jerikson once said trying to pin the RickBoy down on anything is like trying to nail jello to a wall.

Presented three counter examples to challenge the notion that "we just aren't responsible for the actions of others". Okay if that is true, then it is fine to

a) hand a revolver to a depressed person since ultimately, you claim, it's them, not you, responsible for their actions

b) it is fine to say "jump! jump!" to the same person standing on the ledge of a building. Again, they it's ultimately their choice, they don't have to listen to you, and maybe their life is so bad it was the right thing for them to do (how are you to know?)

c) it's fine to use complicated contracts to swindle people with diminished capacity due to some mental condition, because everyone is always responsible for their choice, like their choice to sign a contract, not you.


Now, Rick and many others on this site are so out there, I really don't know which of the three of these statements they would agree with.

The underlying point of my three examples is that when you are dealing with people who suboptimal mental health, as many strippers are, as you will come to realize if you interact with enough of them over time, then most would say the usual rule of "every dog himself" does not apply.

I also find the logic that "claiming ignorance since you don't have 100% knowledge" gets you a free pass wither. If that were true you could say "hey, those needle tracks on her arms might have been because she is a diabetic"

Also saying "well, someone else would have done it if I didn't" isn't a cop out either. That is just terrible logic. If someone is walking through a bad neighborhood where you know they would get mugged, is it okay for you to do it first because if you don't someone else would? True sociopathic reasoning.

It just appalling how terrible people are with not seeing the basic wholes in their logic when it comes to discussing ethical issues. People want to believe things and even the flimsiest rationalization seems to be all they need to allow them to, even if it can be contradicted by a counter example that an objective person could think up in 30 seconds or so

[Cont...]

Now, they reason people won't see what's plain in front of them, is because they don't want cognitive dissonance bothering them. Most people want to avoid that at all costs.

Other appalling logic in this thread: if you think there are some situations in which you should not take advantage of situations others are in, it must mean that you think people should only deal with someone after they have had a thorough drug test. Wonderful strawman and false dichotomy? There is no in between, huh? Ok, it's not only a strawman, and a false dichtomoty, it's what psychologists call "splitting". A true logical fallacy triple play.

My own feeling is that there is a middle ground between "never responsible for the actions of others" and "can only deal with people after a thorough psychiatric and drug check". Grey areas.

Now I'm fully willing to admit that I've crossed over not only from the white areas into the grey but even into the black before. But at least I don't try and pretend their is no difference, and come up with some stupid rationalization that it is all okay anyway. I know the difference consciously, while others here you would have look to slightly less conscious parts of their brain... (surpressed superegos and what not)....

Forget about saving ho's for a minute. It's a dog eat dog world, I get it. OK, but do you really want a reputation for hiring unstable, lo quality service providers?

I think many of the negative views of strippers here, come from the very strippers we put ourselves around. If you place yourself around bad strippers, that's all you see. But you can do better. You don't have to settle for the dancers that come for you, be picky. Go after the ones you want, don't be affraid to turn them away if small talk doesn't feel right, move on to one that does, and that little bit of effort will yield a higher return. And if they eventually break bad, stop doing business with them. There's no need to put up with that shit when there's hundreds more dancers out there. You'll soon get a reputation as a take no shit regular and suddenly your service and entertainment value will improve.

All strippers are lying, thieving, whores only if you surround yourself with liars, thieves, and whores.

I should just let Doug argue for me.

This argument for supporting bad strippers is like buying Bud Light; I can't stand it, but many people do and it's cheap and they sell a lot of it; better to spend my time at places that sell Paulaner, than to fight over the Bud drinkers at Moe's.

I think the more realistic approach, is just realize that strippers are more lying, more thieving, more whoring than ordinary women. So if you don't want less lying, less thieving, less whoring deal with normal women. But if you want strippers have to offer (i.e. being whores) just decide if the lying, thieving you have to up with along the with is a cost you are willing to pay for your fun or not.

I don't think the solution is to pretend that strippers are like normal women, or that all normal women are just ultimately whores anyway.

Trying to have logic discussion with people on the internet is virtually impossible, because such a small percentage of the population has any capacity for rational thought to begin with, and even if they do, very few have the ability to change their minds when confronted with rational thought.

Normally it makes no difference if logic is on your side or not. People want to believe what they want to believe, and will do so with the flimsiest rationalization. Counter examples will not persuade them. They'll just retreat into even more improbable rationalization to support their position. They cast your position as a strawman which they can knock down, but at the same time they will avoid the real issue.

So given all this, I find it funny why people ask "why would anyone prefer flame wars to rational discussion"? Well if the crowd isn't capable of rational discussion why bother in the first place? If the guy is going to continuously put up points which you can't stand up to 10 seconds of logic thought, and is going to argue not with your real position but rather with some strawman why bother with him once you realize this? He just isn't one of the small subset of the human population capable of being persuaded by rational thought. So why not have some with him and just flame away? It's not like you are going to miss anything but not trying to engaging him logically.

Ye ol' "I'm a sane person in an insane world" defense, the last bastion for the guy who just cannot make others buy his opinions.

Look guys, it all boils down to this: A couple of you believe that the mere purchase of services from a stripper confers some responsibility upon the buyer for monitoring how she uses the proceeds of the sale. Others here disagree with that philosophical position. Simple.

In making your argument, you have failed to state how this would be any different from my lawn guy or mechanic doing exactly the same thing. Also, using your logic, the clerk at the hardware store who sold a guy cutting sheers would bear some responsibility if the guy then used them to stab three people down the street. Where does it stop? When does someone become responsible for his/her own actions?

Sorry boys – your so-called “logic” is perfectly understood by the readers, but it is just not that logical to many who posted in this thread.

And for a "put on your man pants" moment, we should all be on the same page with the reality that a LOT of these girls are abusing something, be it alcohol, coke, meth, heroin, pot or something else. If we made a serious effort at weeding out the substance abusers we would dramatically shrink the pool of eligible OTC candidates at many clubs.

Now as I said before, I avoid the obviously fucked up or strung out girls, not for any moral reasons but simply because I don't want some stripper to pass out or make a scene at my hotel. But do I care if she was snorting coke in the DR before she came to my hotel? Not at all. In fact, there are times in my life where I procured such substances in order to grease the OTC skids. I am nobody's hall monitor and I have no interest in telling a grown how to live. In fact, it seems to be a bit hypocritical to pass judgment on a girl who I am paying to fuck.

Anyway, just my two cents.

My ATF is a heroin addict. She is currently on methadone but has been through rehab 17 times. At one point her boyfriend called me from prison and threatened me telling me that by paying her i was enabling her drug use. And yet she keeps convincing me that she wants to get straight, marry her bf,get their son out of foster care. im convinced that shell always be an addict until she dies and if i dont enable her someone else will.

LOL! I didn't even notice Ricky's response until now. But it was the usual - don't confront the questions put to him, but rather side step them and deal win a strawmen instead.

Let us know when you are ready to answer the questions we put to you Rick! I predict... never!

I am neither a Predator nor a White Knight. It is a stretch to suggest that we really know the circumstances of all dancers that entertain us. If I was to exaggerate the concern of the OP, then I guess we'd all be paying for dances with groceries - even lap dances. I don't ply my entertainer w alcohol or drugs, but do accept entertainment offered up to my level of comfort.. I've never demanded a specific service of any entertainer, but expect a level of contact in my entertainment.

From my experience, there are just as many positive/happy dancers, as there are the hard luck/depressing/negative ones. As many mention above, going to the club is about entertainment. Rarely do I spend time or money with the negative girls. Sure, I feel bad for then, but its not my job to save them or enable their addictions.

@gawker I don't think that's the case I'm talking about. If she's in a treatment program, helping her to have an income will help keep her in treatment. The point of cutting off her income would be to force her into treatment.

I don't know, maybe I'm full of shit here. Maybe buying dances from an addicted stripper keeps here from becoming a streetwalker, rather than keeping her from getting treatment.