review comment
3 years ago
Yes I meant my 0-5 scale. My scale is very different from most since about a more sincere high touch sensual, intimate but not overtly sexual interaction. Have never had extras if I want more, I go to Canada with the great escort agencies without the legal risks and high costs in the US. '
I was one of the first to use GFE - on the altsex.prostitution news group using 300 baud dial ups before there were websites. It had nothing to do with sex acts but more a real intimacy for the moment even if never meet again. About human caring high touch interaction like with a GF even if paid for. It has now been highjacked into sex acts (illegal in the US).
For decades I was kind of the go-to person on Phoenix legal issues with all the stings - take them to the Church roundups and attended many felony court trials and hearings. Once during a break the judge in the Phoenix Goddess Tempe case said she missed seeing me when I didn't attend for a month or so! I also has active with the Swing club case when found illegal in Phoenix (I had a large Christian Phoenix Group met n my home and on the legal panel of Club Chemoleon when faced with prison) Sadly we lost and swing clubs technically are illegal in Phoenix. And we lost the well-argued CA case against the prostitution law - both went up to the 9th Circuit before final losses. That is why I have no interest in "sex" in the US.
I even spoke before Phx city council hearings against new laws for massage, strip clubs and swing clubs.
Technically sitting on laps is illegal under the Phoenix ordinance and originally owners were fined or had to close for the slightest violation. Dancers have to sit on the legs of chairs not in client's laps if the ordinance is strictly followed. But in the last decades or so is a bit laxer other than the many raids on Hi-Liter and all the criminal enterprise felonies with up to 60 yrs in prison for escort agencies - which is why there are none and all the local forums shut down. I ran the Phx private list for years, and our big parties at the Sky-High Condo before promoting or encouraging became a felony in AZ.
review comment
3 years ago
Meat - I have no problem being called cheap, to me its being frugal. Am not desperate enough to pay those extra fees. It's been since 2018 that I had gone to any club so can be fine if pass on VIP other than at Bourbon. I also think tipping is silly but do it when needed. In much of Asia tipping is considered an insult. When I was in Germany in 2019 tipping was just rounding up to the nearest dollar. Just pay folks what you need to without the silly tipping nonsense. I have no problem deciding to pay the full rate or not, but never tip other than when very expected. I do tip the waitress a buck or two since feel it's almost required. A seldom go to restaurants but will tip 20%, I never go to bars other than strip clubs.
Heellover - always great to hear your comments and you have such good memory. We also just exchanged private emails.
Anyone here interested in joining on a trip to TJ?
review comment
3 years ago
Are the floor dances still mostly air dances with limited contact, like they use to be?
review comment
4 years ago
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ndnmanYou got some Indian in you? No? Would you like to?
Meat72 while the kill rate is low those that survive often say it was the worst time of their life - often in the hospital for weeks and now Arizona is spiking higher than ever and hear or at capacity in hospital beds. The flu you can get or mitigate with the vaccine I get every year but not COVID-19. I have no underlying conditions other than being old guy. But I am not risking it no matter how much I miss clubs like Sugar 44. Already had to cancel two trips to Canada - Toronto and Montreal that I usually go to in the Summer for a week at a time (mostly Toronto but want to return to Montreal for adult fun without the legal issues in the US
discussion comment
5 years ago
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rickduganVerified and Certifiable Super-Reviewer
Not wearing a mask is just plain selfish like drunk driving - you are a danger to others. You can have no symptoms and be a carrier. Cloth masks protect others from your breathing - reports show just talking can spread virus 8 feet and last in the air for as I recall 20 minutes. Surgical masks are about 50% effecting to protect you as well as others. N95s are 95% effective in protecting you.
While the majority of cases in older folks, all ages can get or transmit without knowing they are infected.
discussion comment
5 years ago
Hof was originally from the Phoenix area. While I dislike his publicity antics and would never go to his expensive places I had dinner with him and he did a good job of testifying for the defense at the very long Goddess Temple trial that I attended and reported on. He was very intelligent and friendly to all.
review comment
5 years ago
HL said he didn't go to the VIP. He is a very well known contributor here and certainly not a shill for the club. We also can not be too explicit or clubs will get raided like the many times at HL.
We all hope we can return to life as it use to be, but for now safety is more important. I had to cancel a trip to Toronto and Montreal since we can not enter Canada (or Mexico) now. As most folks know, I enjoy more the adult freedoms in Canada when it gets hot here for 7-10 days. Been going to Toronto for 20+ years and their very liberal strip clubs (in Mississauga not city of Toronto which is more restrictive.
Good to see good last chance at 44 before who knows how long! Many of the dancers like Raven do have another life and jobs outside the clubs, although probably not essential services that kept working.
discussion comment
5 years ago
Sorry I scanned threads and didn't find it and don't have time to read hundreds of threads. There appears to be no "search" function which I have used to see if been posted or not on other boards.
discussion comment
5 years ago
EveHartley - Air Canada just canceled my flight to Toronto in late April. I had booked 2 hotels for a total 7 days but they were easy to cancel. Since Air Canada canceled I can apply the fare to future trips within 2 years. I had earlier canceled a trip to Montreal and have to use the credit within one-year (American Airlines) but I was the one that canceled not the airline like for Air Canada.
A business meeting with a few hundred in Toronto has been rescheduled in late August. Hopefully life as we use to know it might return by then!
discussion comment
5 years ago
There is no food shortage at groceries at least here in Phoenix. A semi driver for Fry's says there are all working long hours and the problem is food is pouring into the Distribution Centers that are overflowing with food pouring in . faster than the drivers can get it delivered to groceries. Groceries are closing a few hours earlier to give stockers more time to stock food from the huge number of food pallets. The National Guard was going to help in the distibution to stores but now not needed as stores are mosly stocked the the Nationl Guard now helping at food banks etc.
discussion comment
5 years ago
Fortunately, some of the dancers have outside jobs so hopefully, they have saved some for a rainy day. You would be amazed how many dancers are in hi-tech industries or teaching, for example, some at Sugar 44. On the other hand, most are hurting. I had planned a trip to Toronto where I have gone for 20 years without the issues in the US in late April but probably 90% I will have to cancel. I already had to cancel a trip to Montreal. Almost all the clubs and the many great agencies have shut down in Canada now, as in the US. I note even the TJ Mexico clubs are mostly bare and now no travel to either Mexico or Canada. I wonder how this is affecting new sugar babies - since can't meet at first at bars or resturants.
discussion comment
5 years ago
Have gone to Toronto (actually Mississauga) strip clubs for 20 years and in Hamilton and Niagara Falls, plus enjoy other adult activities without the legal issues in the US. Of course, you should change your $US to $CDN or you will pay about 25% more since usually just take at par. Currently, $CDN100 is about $US75.00 so we get about a 25% discount if we get $CZDN. I use a debit card at ATMs. Avoid the money changers at the airport or banks that will do large markup fees on the exchange. You should get very close to the official exchange rate at most Bank's ATMs but they may vary slightly.
review comment
5 years ago
Huh ?I see my name here. I have never done the VIP other than at Bourbon Street with no separate room fee,, never paid $100 and clearly nothing sexual or anal? Your kidding. My scale is an intimacy scale not a sex scale. At favorite club sugar 44 only do table dance $10 each but establish what I consider real chemistry from caring touch which is my odd desire more than sex, at least in a strip club. Never done their VIP. I have never been to Christie's. When I mentioned what I was doing personally and needed a break to visit last Sugar trip folks scolded me for sharing some personal stuff rather than just purely about the club as an intro to when come. I think it is interesting to know some of the folks the write reviews more than just describing dancers and how hot they are. I share my whole person since I am interested in people more than just their sex interests.
I have had great experience over the last 40 years or so both in Phoenix, San Fransico, and mostly in Toronto/Mississauga.
review comment
5 years ago
OK guys the instructions here are to post long reviews, but I see my story type aren't welcome by many. So,in the future I will just enjoy the clubs and not do reviews.
discussion comment
5 years ago
JAprufrock - I just happened to look you up and see we also share the love for Mississauga, Allure and I have almost 2500 posts on terb.cc you mentioned. I made some comments on your last Allure discussion
review comment
5 years ago
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JAprufrockDid desertscrub's mom suck you dry, too?
Great review and you like what I do in my about 20 years of annual trips to Toronto/Sauga. Allure is one of my favorites although SRM is also very good. I wish I was as close to Canada as you! I do have about 2500 posts on terb.cc you mentioned.
The "adult body rubs" are more liberal than in the City of Toronto. There are most in Mississauga which is where Pearson Intl Airport is. This is thanks to ex-mayor of like 30 yrs Hazel who finally retired at about age 90 a few years ago. She has stated she wanted sexwork safe and in the open instead of underground.
discussion comment
5 years ago
The only thing related to the economy Trump did was the huge tax cut for corporations and mostly the most wealthy with a multi-trillon deficit cost. The promised increase in capital spending didn't happen, instead lots of buybacks of stock mostly benefiting the most wealthy.
Funny no one is talking about the $trillion deficit and huge total federal debt the Republicans were raving about under Obama who pulled us out of the "Great Recession". Also, Trump has spent more than twice the amount to bail out farmers than the auto bailout that saved the industry that R's were so upset about.
In the four years prior to the passage of the GOP tax law, the economy added an average of 213,000 jobs each month, according to data from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. In the nearly two years since the law passed, average job creation has actually declined by an average of 11,000 per month.
The unemployment is at a low but lots of those workers are having to work two jobs to support families as wage growth has been almost stagnant for middle income until a small rise recently. Top execs have had huge pay increases.
The White House promised that the tax cuts would result in an annual wage increase of $4,000 per household. Again, not even close. In the two years since the law passed, wage growth, after accounting for inflation, rose only slightly, from 1% to just under 1.4% per year for nonsupervisory workers, according to data from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. That difference — even if it were fully attributable to the tax cuts — amounts to less than $400 for a full-time worker. So much for your $4,000 raise.
We have been told, over and over again, that tax cuts for the rich are good for the overall economy. However, there's not much solace to be found in the gross domestic product either. In the four years before the law passed, real GDP grew by an annual average rate of about 2.4%, according to data from the Bureau of Economic Analysis. In the nearly two years since, the GDP growth rate has inched only slightly higher to an annual average of 2.5%.
These lackluster results should not, in the end, be very surprising. The claim that a huge tax cut for the wealthy and corporations would trickle down to everyone else was based on an outdated and discredited set of ideas for how the economy works. In that old framework, the way to produce a better economy is to get out of the way of job creators and let the free market do the rest. A tax cut for corporations, then, should have reduced the cost of capital and induced them to invest more, which ultimately is supposed to create jobs and push up wages.
But even that very first step never happened. In the last two years, the growth rate of private direct investment has substantially declined. In the four years before the law passed, private direct investment grew by about 3.3% annually, according to data compiled by the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis. In the two years since the law was enacted, that rate is down to 2.5%.
The idea that tax cuts aimed at corporations and the rich would bestow economic gifts on all of us is flawed. Because that's not how the economy works in real life. Corporations don't make investment decisions based on tax giveaways. And wages don't automatically increase with tax cuts or with productivity improvements.
President Trump's signature legislative accomplishment has turned out to be an expensive failure. He will run on his economic record next year, but he should be careful what he wishes for. Given what a bust his tax cuts have been, voters may not be as inclined to trust his economic stewardship.
Failures
North Korea ready to test ICBMs to hit the US total failure with his nuclear negotiations.
The US no longer a trusted ally in the world since he does things alone by his gut not any thought out rationale way based on facts
Ignores facts, doesn't want detail since his gut is already right.
Dismantling many agreements especially climate-related since in his fantasy mind climate change is a hoax.
99 proven false statements in last two weeks. Emotional irrational rants about impeachment being wrong since all is perfect.
Totally deluded whose closest friend is Putin doing his bidding and making sure no one else talks and tells the truth.
Trump has done more damage to the U.S. in world affairs than probably any other President in history, ignores the Constitution and makes up his only "alternative facts" vs the truth.
discussion comment
5 years ago
SJG - No undercover cop is going to allow you to feel her up, DFK, etc. She would arrest you for assault. Massaging breasts is prohibited sexual contact.
In the normal situation, an offer of or for money is typically received by an undercover the bust and conviction is very easy. Virtually no cases have been successfully challenged.
Arizona Laws 13-1401 - (similar in most states) "Sexual contact": (a) Means any direct or indirect touching, fondling or manipulating of any part of the genitals, anus or female breast by any part of the body or by any object or causing a person to engage in such contact.
It has to be for money or other valuable consideration. So in a strip club if I massage breasts I am not paying to do so, only for the lap dance. Under Phoenix and similar city strip club licensing laws (sexually-orientated business provision), it is not allowed. Under the code even if two people are fully clothed and hug it is a violation if its a close hug that includes breast contact even when both are fully clothed.
Undercover cops at Hi-LIter have busted dancers for prostitution when they offer and HJ or oral for a specific tip. The Z family that owns Hi-Liter is being targeted so they will not get the license they are after for Centerfolds which they now own as part of a larger group of club owners after a bouncer threw out a drunk customer but hit his head on the ground and died. The city does not want that club to ever get a liquor license so target the big club of the owners (Hi-Liter). Centerfolds is still open but only the small non-alcohol side with a no-contact policy. To see what was going, a few years ago went there and had a great discussion with a dancer about events. I was a bit shocked when she told me one of the owners was there and hearing about me wanted to meet me (not the Z family but an owner in the group that also owns another club). So this huge burly guy introduces himself and we go off into the closed huge dance area with chairs etc. For about 45 minutes he discusses all the events and legal team and issues since he knew I am well connected in the club scene. Very nice guy!
This city law was passed in1999 - I testified against it and hearings and against the outlawing of swing clubs. Dancers had to sit on the arms of chairs - not in laps and clubs were fined or closed for a period with heavy enforcement. Then there was a period of non-enforcement. Today enforcement is limited to certain clubs it seems and floor managers differ in what they allow in different clubs and up the dancer in some clubs informally.
Pandering - In Arizona if I encourage someone to see a person that offers sexual acts and she charges a consideration, I can be charged with a pimping felony. That is why all the local Phoenix review/discussion boards shut down a few years ago. Likewise, board owners all over the US have been similarly charges (Seattle, Tucson, etc).
Phoenix Goddess Temple - She is back on Facebook but is not offering any "services" in Sedona or anywhere else, just her feminist goddess stuff preaching.
AZ Swing clubs - My Secret House was shut down. As the link to their website says have plans for the future. We do not know how Club Encounters and Discretions continues when the much nicer huge 12,000-foot club (Club Chameleon aka Club C) was told to shut down or go to jail after they lost the battle in the 9th Circuit (I was on the legal committee). The story I reported on extensively on libchrist.com and local New Times at https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/sex-club-shenanigans-6395793
Note they list my Liberated Christian although our Phoenix Couples Group of 350 folks I ended like 10 years ago. We are still listed as a Cyber Resource Center and get lots of traffic even though I haven't updated the site in like 10 years. But many find helpful to get over Christian guilt issues.
BTW New Times also did a funny article on my Liberated Christians group. It was featured on the front page. The article without some of the funny pictures is still up at https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/onward-christian-swingerslooking-for-god-in-all-the-wrong-places-try-this-sunday-meeting-6432987
Years ago I knew the owners of Encounters and Discretions and we met with the Phoenix Chief of Police while the Club C case was pending or under appeal at the 9th Circuit. Had a good meeting and the Chief agreed to discontinue to license plate checks of all the cars in club parking lots to see if any outstanding traffic warrants. The two clubs that remain are a bit not really my type vs the nice Club C. I would never consider going as a single male when they are allowed usually only to watch exhibitionist couples not my thing. I did go with some gals to Club C a few times. Including with porn star Nina Hartley who very much supported Liberated Christians etc. I have a picture of her and my companion on my lap from the club. Nina is very much into sex education and positive sexuality much more than just making porn movies. Still has educational stuff at http://www.nina.com/
I believe the others listed meet in private homes or venues for different events which is legal if you don't charge a fee directly or not a place normally used as a sexually oriented business. Although I don't think any are currently active.
There is a huge BDSM group in Phoenix but there is no sex permitted at events to avoid legal issues.
I disagree with your ending point. No, the Nordic Model, if enforced, makes it easy to bust customers just not "prostitutes" Fortunately in most of Canada local LE does not enforce it since enforcement makes people less safe and the new C36 law is being challenged as unconstitutional just like the old law on incalls etc.,was voided.
discussion comment
5 years ago
Actually in maybe 200 cases I have followed in the Courts in Phoenix over the past 10-years I can only recall one that was dismissed (cleaning lady only). All entrapment defenses easily fail. Touching breasts is defined as sexual. Few attorneys specialize in prostitution crimes since almost all are going to be lost and few lawyers can afford the fees typically $10k or so. Therefore most defendants use a public defender. Just for protection although I know I never break the law paid $5k retainer just to have a sexwork friendly lawyer on call. Have never needed of course.
FAR, FAR worse is the many FELONY cases. Anytime two or more people work together it is a felon (criminal enterprise). All the agencies in Phoenix shut down years ago not wanting to face 40 years in prison when they layer on money laundering charges every time they can trace money to a bank etc. Likewise all the local review boards shut down a few years ago since owners can be felony charged.
There have been zillions of felony criminal enterprise cases in Phoenix. All massage parlors busts are felonies with the owner and every worker felony charged. Likewise, agencies all the gals felony charged for participating in a criminal enterprise.
The most famous case which I attended five years of court hearings and trial and reported on, was the Phoenix Goddess Temple bust. 40 wonderful mostly older women believed in Tantra including the "root chakra" i.e. hand release as part of their offer to "seekers". All 40 women felony charged. I was in Court often when judge issued "Donald Advisement" warning they could face up to 40 plus years in prison if convicted. Over five years all workers took plea agreements for probation and the felony could later be converted to a misdemeanor. However, the original felony conviction still can be found and by employers etc.
The leader (Tracy) claimed was just practicing her religion and after a long jury trial was convicted by the jury in about an hour. She was sentenced to five years in prison. (the max like 40 years is just possible if all the counts run consecutive). She was indicted on about 10 counts but judge let them be concurrent and lower end of range. Tracy appealed and lost on Appeal. She appealed to the AZ Supreme Court who recently refused to take the case. She was released a few months ago getting credit for about a year of time served in Phoenix jail awaiting trial since she could not make bail.
This is just one of the many Phoenix cases I have followed the court records on and reported on via a private list I've had by email, although no longer active, although still have 350 escorts subscribed (free) but haven't done any update for a while since so much has changed under FOSTA. Years ago when we had about 1500 members in Phoenix hosted popular "sky high condo" parties for escorts and guys. Not just bar meet but had presentations, introductions discussions of issues not just a meet and greet.
I also have been involved in the national decrim legal fight that challenged the California prostitution law with some of the best briefs and friend of the court filings including ACLU top attorneys. Sadly lost both at lower level and appeal to the 9th circuit.
Likewise, I was on the legal committee for the large swing club after in 1999 swing clubs were made illegal in Arizona. Lots of great attorneys and lost all the way, including the 9th Circuit.
Phoenix was ground zero in many other police from other cities have been trained by Phoenix LE and the anti-sex all sexwork is abuse of women and all related to sex trafficking, now rules in the U.S.
There is also a strong anti-group in Canada but they have the safety of person provision in their Charter that wins based on the higher risk when it is not legal. And only Federal Criminal law not State or local criminal laws.
discussion comment
5 years ago
SJG - your right as in Canada but not the US.
In US massage parlors are just stupid and why so many busts especially Asian. Even in Canada when incalls were illegal (outcalls always legal) there was a issue if a closed room in a "adult body rub" was a illegal bawdy house if sex was offered for a tip. In Canada, they avoid the whole issue by inclusive full price up front no silly tipping crap (I never have tipped a dancer, escort, massage gal." For example, I love to give massage (been professionally trained in Esalen) and the great response I usually get. So I have enjoyed the "nude-reverse" on the menu options especially in Mississauga (liberal ex Mayor Hazel who retired at about age 90). A "happy ending" was just part of the massage. No separte fee and never a legal problem even when anything sexual was illegal other than outcall.
BTW, Brampton (in Toronto metro area) tried to outlaw the massage gal from being nude. The law was struck down by the Courts since being nude is not illegal.
Canada has only one criminal code - national. Unlike the US with separate state and local laws. Canada does have licensing bylaws. The strip clubs in the city of Toronto violate the Toronto city bylaw if any physical contact. But a bylaw is not criminal only a licensing issue. Strip clubs in Mississauga have no such restrictions thanks to ex-Mayor Hazel. She once stated she would prefer any sexwork to be done in the open and not forced underground. She was Mayor like for 30 years until age about 90.
In Toronto strip clubs the bylaw is not enforced much probably because it might be challenged in the courts if it was. However, due to potential problems, Toronto strip clubs have much less "extras" than Mississauga (Sauga) clubs which almost anything can be had in the VIPs and no one cares. VIP dances are $CDN20 and no fee to use the VIPs.
For those that don't know Mississauga - the huge Pearson Intl Airport is in Sauga, just on the border of Toronto. I mostly avoid going downtown Toronto since the 401 highway is one of the most traveled in North America six-plus lanes some parts each direction with collectors and feeders. Even in non-rush hour it is often a slow crawl and very confusing collectors right or left exiting even though I have been on it many times. I have a friend downtown I often visit and have dinner with. We kind of split him coming out to where I stay or me taking the 401 to meet him.
discussion comment
5 years ago
TFP - yep you expressed it well. I am getting email notifications of new replies to this discussion but only because I started it. It would be great to be able to "subscribe" to any thread like on many boards. For example terb.cc, where I have 2400 posts on, is so easy using the popular vBulletin software.
This TUSCL board is nice and bright and clean just very hard to follow discussions. I still haven't figured out how to mark a strip clubs as favorite. Doesn't seem to have the emblem that use to control it.
discussion comment
5 years ago
Odd my last comment above now gets listed in my Conversations but not about five other comments in threads I posted on in the last few days.
discussion comment
5 years ago
If I want to return to a topic I posted on a few days ago, "sort by last comment" doesn't really help much since sill have to look at all the topics to find down to the one I am interested in.
discussion comment
5 years ago
San-Jose-Guy
Not really. Remember in Canada it is ILLEGAL for a customer to offer money for sex to an escort. The escort is totally legal but not the customer. It is only because of Police decisions in most major cities NOT TO ENFORCE C36 if private consenting adults. Most LE realizes it makes it safer for all than to force it underground where more likely to be abuse etc. Further, the constitutionality of C36 is now being challenged in the London case and it may be declared void for the "safety of persons" under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms just like the prior prostitution laws were voided by the Supreme Court of Canada.