The Nordic model of prostitution laws?

Monday, December 16, 2019 7:35 AM
In Canada and several northern European countries (thus it is called the Nordic model), laws have been recently adopted that make it illegal to purchase sexual services but it still remains legal to sell sexual services. Can anyone explain the practical implications of these laws? For example, could a prostitute openly sell sexual services (with legal impunity) and then have the customer arrested for purchasing such services? I know that these laws were motivated by efforts to reduce exploitation of the sellers (typically women) but it seems like a confusing double standard.

108 comments

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Call.Me.Ishmael
4 years ago
Heaving-- your observations were helpful, although the Wikipedia resource (thanks Ishmael) was also helpful. So, what would you do if traveling in Canada and you wanted to visit a massage parlor or strip club? Some people seem to think that prostitution is legal in Canada (I wish that were so!), but it seems a bit more complicated.
Electronman
4 years ago
I would like to know why one person believes that engaging in a criminal act somehow deprives you of the right to call the police in an emergency.
skibum609
4 years ago
Nobody thinks they’ve lost their right to call the police. They think the police will use the interaction as an excuse to look for reasons to arrest them. Decriminalizing the sale would mean that a worker who wants to change careers might have an easier time since she won’t have a criminal record holding her back. Plus, the jail system doesn’t have to waste time with the repeat offenders like they do here.
Fun_Loving_Fella
4 years ago
So the problem is solved by arresting men and not women, instead of the other way around? Seems absolutely fucking dumb, but very progressive.
skibum609
4 years ago
Elecronman asked "So, what would you do if traveling in Canada and you wanted to visit a massage parlor or strip club?" Same as here in the US. Be careful and try to do a bit of research. If going to Montreal, you can do perform some due diligence here: [view link]
Call.Me.Ishmael
4 years ago
My weak understanding (I haven't read about it in a while) is that in parallel with decriminalizing the prostitute's role, it's common for these laws to double-down on penalties and prosecutions for the johns. That is, the prostitute is not doing anything illegal, but the johns are not just doing something illegal (the way they already are today), but the penalties are not the mere infractions or slap-on-the-hand misdemeanors they are today. It substantially increases the risk for the men.
Subraman
4 years ago
Historically, prostitution busts in the US (and other countries) have focused on arresting and punishing the prostitutes far more aggressively than the customers. The Nordic model seeks a remedy to that. As a matter of fact, efforts to close the loophole on legal prostitution in Rhode Island failed several times because provisions were added to ensure that customers would be prosecuted to the same degree as escorts, and each time the 90% male state legislature suddenly decided to postpone the legislation until the next year (go figure...). I think that the Nordic model goes in the right direction, but it's a half measure and confusing to most.
Call.Me.Ishmael
4 years ago
Ski, you’re misidentifying the problem they are trying to solve. I think this is about human trafficking more than anything else.
Fun_Loving_Fella
4 years ago
Ish-->"The Nordic model seeks a remedy to that. " I think we're perilously close to having to move this to political forum. But -- Ish, I strongly disagree that the Nordic model seeks a "remedy" to only punishing prostitutes. "Remedy" implies introducing some fairness, e.g., prosecuting them both. The Nordic model, from its roots to its implementation is crystal clear -- they are REVERSING the punishment roles. The prostitutes are not doing anything illegal and no longer can be prosecuted -- only the men get prosecuted, and the penalties introduced are generally much harsher than they are today. There is a conscious design of these laws on a philosophical underpinning of "sex-for-money is not a victimless crime, the prostitute is the victim, the john is the perpetrator and should be punished harshly." I am happy not to be SCing, OTCing, looking for arrangements,etc., in one of these countries. The view is absolutely regressive -- it is not a step towards decriminalizing, it is codifying and doubling down on the fact that it is a crime with a victim and a perpetrator, and the perpetrator should be harshly punished. Puritanism but with the sense of punishment reversed.
Subraman
4 years ago
It seems to me that such laws would punish the prostitutes too--by eliminating their customers. If men are afraid of jail, they won't patronize prostitutes. The prostitutes presumably need the money or else they wouldn't be working as prostitutes.
jackslash
4 years ago
Just another dumbass govt solution. Legalize it and be done with it and spend your resources catching the traffickers and child pimps. But that will never happen because the biggest patrons of child prostitution ARE govt officials.
Tiredtraveler
4 years ago
The main objective of the Nordic Model is “supposedly” to decrease the demand for prostitution by only punishing the soliciting (John) of sexual services in order to decrease the volume of the illegal sex industry overall. What really happens is that the sex industry has to remain underground because the prostitutes/escorts need to keep the costumer free to return to seek their services.
CJKent (Banned)
4 years ago
Well, generally in conservative jurisdictions they portray a prostitute as a social menace. Note the reportage on the crackdowns in Greenville SC. They make the reader fear the women they are investigating. And if you don't make it that way, then there is no victim. But in liberal jurisdictions, like San Francisco, if they did it that way the newspapers would mock the police. So they try to make it so the shop owner, like Jim and Artie Mitchell, is the criminal and that this shop owner / Pimp is the societal menace. So this Nordic Model is just going the next step, making it so the the John is the criminal. It makes sense to me. But thing is, I always talk to women as civilians. Learned that long ago, never seen any reason to deviate from this. In an AMP, on the Sidewalk, in a strip club, I can come on to a woman I like and get it to sex, without ever offering money or ever suggesting that she is motivated by money. Even if she is sitting on the fence, I never try to sweeten the pot by offering her money. I believe that that makes a big difference in how the women will treat me. I have no objection to giving her money, but I will never offer it to her like that is supposed to motivate her. AMP girls tell me that guys are lying face down on the table, piling up a stack of money on a nearby stand, trying to get the girl to agree. I have never done anything like that, nor would I ever. That would be insulting her. More likely than not, I've gotten a preliminary makeout session going with her right off. Then once she mentions money she gets it. Sometimes they don't mention money now until the very end. Other times the girl will just say, "do you want to do everything?" or "what do you want to do?". Its a lot easier to deal with her once that preliminary makeout session is underway. But I don't treat her like a pro, I don't use money to persuade her. All kinds of ways to come on to her verbally without acting like she does sex for money. So right from the start she is more like my mistress than like a hooker. So the Nordic Model law seems harmless to me. In my view, guys that try to persuade women with money are extreme jerks. Always worked on the Street, in AMPs, and in Strip Clubs. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^^^^ If you always treat her in a civilian manner, then who has broken any law, and what law? SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
Interesting discussion but it convinces me that this is a truly fu**ed up law. 1. If a woman wants to sell sexual services, she can do it legally but she'll have no customers because buying sex is illegal and the men might be afraid of getting busted. Let's say we applied the Nordic model to any service job, such as dental hygienist. It would be legal to work as a dental hygienist but it would be illegal to purchase those services. Geez! 2. Here's one solution. It is not illegal to sell sexual services under this model. So the woman (assuming that most prostitutes are women) offers her services for $300. In turn the man offers his sexual services to the woman for $100. The cost differential is $200 to the woman and neither has committed a crime under this model because both have been sellers of sexual services. Makes your head spin and your dick go soft.
Electronman
4 years ago
As I know it is the solicitation which the john might do, which is illegal. Probably unless it is with an undercover or with a woman who took offense, nothing would happen. But my point is that there is no reason to solicit women or other ways talk to them in any non-civilian manner. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^^^ Has never seen a vagina. ^^^
Call.Me.Ishmael
4 years ago
How's that for less political?
Call.Me.Ishmael
4 years ago
Laws against prostitution are notoriously difficult to enforce. Sex is not illegal. Money is not illegal. I think it is only client solicitation which is prohibited under this Nordic Law. But there is no reason to solicit a woman if you want to have sex with her anyway. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^^^ STFU!
Mate27
4 years ago
@heaving. You're right-- claiming that you're shooting a porn film should solve the problem and provide one more example of the silliness of these attempts to regulate sex between consenting adults.
Electronman
4 years ago
Prostitution laws are always hard to enforce. But in these Nordic Countries, they have not made sex illegal. You don't need an excuse for having sex. Just don't solicit the woman or otherwise make it sound like you expect her to have sex for money. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^^^^ agreed! The issue has always been, who gets busted. 1. Hooker 2. Pimp / Facilitator 3. John And then how do you prove that a law is being broken. So this Nordic Model is the most aggressive attempt to go after the John. But the fact is, there is no reason to solicit women. And sex is not illegal and money is not illegal. Most US Prostitution busts start with shredding the Constitution and its Due Process clause. Usually there is no evidence, there is just entrapment and they are depending on most defendants pleading guilty. Real the stories about Greenville SC and its strip club, Platinum Plus. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
First off; the idea "makes sense" to SJG. That alone makes it idiotic. Providence strip clubs were attacked in the name of "sex trafficking" and if I recall Bob Kraft's handjob was also because of "sex trafficking". It appears that sex trafficking is simply just another excuse. The "Nordic Model" is just more "morality" with a different name. I love the fact the Nordic geniuses believe we can "wipe out sex trafficking"; given our resounding 7,000 year history of success in wiping out prostitution. News flash: Total number of sex trafficking victims saved in the two examples above: Zero.
skibum609
4 years ago
Sounds like the Nordic Model could mean effective de-criminalization, just so long as you don't solicit the woman, and there is no reason to solicit women. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
SJG A good point is being made here. As you say having sex is not illegal. Giving money to a woman is not illegal. Only the open solicitation of women for the purpose of having sex is illegal. SO here's what I do. I make friends with a woman by making out with her then we go and have fun together at my hotel. After we are done money changes hands but not a specific amount. It's what I feel her time was worth. Shes happy I'm happy. The world is a little brighter.
jestrite50
4 years ago
^^^^^ Awesome, and that is how it tends to work with me in AMPS. In strip clubs, it can be the same, though probably the woman will want to tie down a specific amount before it happens. Still, no law broken. Thanks! SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
For all intents and purposes it’s legal in Canada, at least in Toronto and Montreal. You can’t openly solicit prostitution on the streets but you can book escorts through the many agencies that advertise on-line and there is no chance of being arrested, from what I understand. LE only concerned about underage and trafficking and there is none of that with the well-established agencies. Toronto is a tremendous mongering destination and highly underrated. The best resource is [view link]
JAprufrock
4 years ago
@heaving. I understand that the intent is to regulate the selling of sex, not to prohibit consensual sex. I'm not sure about you but I've always found that to be a slippery slope argument that can conflate prostitution with many consensual sex encounters, including marriage. Of course, no one is going to be charged with prostitution for having sex with their significant other (SO) while also providing their SO with money, goods, services, promises of undying love, etc. Presumably the exchange of money/goods/services for sex was not explicit, thus it is distinct from prostitution. But not so fast, what happens if your SO stops having sex with you? If you then break off the relationship or otherwise curtail the flow of money, goods, services, etc. then it begins to look more like an explicit exchange of money (or valuable goods and services) for sex. The point is that most relationships involve the exchange of something of value (often more than just money or material goods) and sex is often part of that exchange.
Electronman
4 years ago
@jestrite: Sounds logical, maybe even idyllic, but I bet it would not hold up in court (of course, I hope you never have the opportunity to test that defense).
Electronman
4 years ago
You make friends with a woman by making out with her and money is never mentioned? Um, that's called dating.
skibum609
4 years ago
If you go to Montreal, it's really easy to get an escort and not be arrested. No experience with Toronto. So, the Nordic model seems to work fine there, and it appears that customers aren't being rounded up and wiped out in prostitution pogroms. The crackdown on Providence clubs in 2012 occurred because a runaway 14-year-old girl was being pimped out of Cheaters (now Wild Zebra, but probably not for long...). So, as far as I'm concerned, that's legit human trafficking. You won't see that pimp anytime soon: [view link] Though I think that he got off lightly. Which is to say, he should have been thrown into a dumpster with the club owners and managers and lit on fire.
Call.Me.Ishmael
4 years ago
Ishmael's link to the Providence trafficking case is disturbing. I'd like to remove any and all aspects of human trafficking from the globe, but I fear that the well-intentioned human trafficking crusaders have equated prostitution with human trafficking. I'm not convinced that they are one and the same. Nor am I convinced that the Nordic model (or any of the legal crackdowns on prostitution) actually reduces human trafficking. From my somewhat biased perspective, trafficking is about consent, really the lack thereof. Trafficking obviously applies to underage victims who cannot legally consent. But it also applies to anyone who is being forced via violence or threats of violence and harm (including harm to family members or threats of deportation) to engage in any kind of labor, sexual services included. To me, it is not the exchange of money but the coercion that is of concern. Of course defining coercion is also a slippery slope. Violence and threats of harm are obviously coercive but can a person be "coerced" through purely positive means (e.g., a hefty cash offer for a person who is otherwise destitute)? Possibly. But that's a different topic.
Electronman
4 years ago
The guy who pimped the teen was convicted of deriving support from a prostitute while I was in law school and sex trafficking really doesn't apply to local teens who act "willingly".
skibum609
4 years ago
Why was Ish's comment "muted"?
skibum609
4 years ago
-->"If you go to Montreal, it's really easy to get an escort and not be arrested. No experience with Toronto. So, the Nordic model seems to work fine there, and it appears that customers aren't being rounded up and wiped out in prostitution pogroms." Ish, I'm sure that's true, just like in most cities escorts aren't currently being rounded up and wiped out in prostitution pogroms. But today, some escorts get caught in stings, and for them, it's pretty tough. I have absolutely read of johns getting caught in stings in Canada, and it is now tougher for them than the previous slap on the wrist (and even worse in other countries that have adopted this model). So from the self-interest side -- do expect the consequences to be more serious if you do get caught. The stakes are much higher for men. That is ignoring the serious philosophical objections I have to this -- the regressive movement of the Nordic model towards decriminalization, and instead moving even deeper into the criminalization with the fact that it's an immmoral unethical crime against the prostitute with the man as perpetrator. I'd prefer this kind of thinking not get into the legal system here. It's many steps backwards IMO.
Subraman
4 years ago
I'd need to look into more recent cases and stings to form a qualified response. For what it's worth, I'm far more in favor of fully legalized and regulated prostitution.
Call.Me.Ishmael
4 years ago
Electronman wrote, "@jestrite: Sounds logical, maybe even idyllic, but I bet it would not hold up in court (of course, I hope you never have the opportunity to test that defense)." Wait a minute, having sex with a woman does not make you a criminal suspect, so you don't need any defense. Skibum wrote, "You make friends with a woman by making out with her and money is never mentioned? Um, that's called dating." Usually in a strip club, in my experience, it is best just to keep feeding her money. But this does not mean that there needs to be a discussion about it, or a contract like meeting of the minds. If you can get her into a makeout session, she will soften right up. And you can "take care of her" with money. Just don't solicit her, as that would fall into the scope of this law. I would say that the law is a step towards decriminalization, as it lets the woman and the pimp off, and busting Johns will be almost impossible. If you have gotten a woman into a makeout session, then she cannot lawfully be a cop. This is why in AMPs, even though many are not used to being DFKed and advanced upon in a civilian way, once they get it they open right up and what ensues is always mind blowing. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^^ STFU!!
Mate27
4 years ago
Keep feeding her money? First guy to ever think of t hat as a tactic eh?
skibum609
4 years ago
It makes it easier for you to lead it, so she can just let go and let your FRMOS ensue. Better than asking her to preform any sort of a service upon you. SJG Joe Bonamassa "Midnight Blues" [view link]
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
When in a Stril Club She usually is lap sitting making out with me. I hand her a 5 or a 10 eve very so often to keep her interested. if we are making out in a dimly lit corner and she plays with my dick under the table I will usually spot her a 20 if she continues. Only one time about 8 years ago did I get a bare back blow job under a table in a dark corner of the room by 2 drunk shot girls. I compensated them well even though they never asked me for a dime. In most cases my girls never ask me for money but they know I will take care of them if weve been together before.
jestrite50
4 years ago
Strip
jestrite50
4 years ago
So this Nordic Law then is harmless. No reason to solicit women. Generally not a good way to interact with them! Thank you for showing us this Jestrite! SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
This Nordic model seems like some ultra-liberal BS - more big (huge) government BS and "we're from the government and we're here to help" BS that usually makes things worse and are big on unintended-consequences and small on actual good-results. This is typical liberal victimhood BS as if a woman can't choose for herself whether she wants to have sex for $$$ or not - as if the mere act of a man offering sex for $$$ is too-much for a woman to overcome and say no to (yet many libs at the same time wanna claim anything a man can do so can a woman and we're all equal - talk about wanting your liberal-cake and eating it too). This Nordic genius-model is analogous to not criminalizing drug-dealers and only going after drug-users/buyers b/c if it wasn't for the users these poor drug dealers would not be doing what they do.
Papi_Chulo
4 years ago
Well they are just saying that it is men who drive prostitution. May or may not be so, but there is some insight in it. Fact is though, the law will have no effect, as there is no reason to solicit a woman if you just want to have sex with her. So it amounts to decriminalization, no restrictions on how prostitution can be offered. People don't get busted for the sex behind closed doors, they get busted over the selections process. Now, that is effectively decriminalized. No need to solicit a woman to have sex with her. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^^^ You guys who find a problem in this Nordic Model, how is a male monger going to get arrested? guy: "I like your high heels. Here ( $20) I know you have expenses when you work in this club. You should let me take care of you" (what follows is general discussion of his person and identity, and why he is in town. Usually if girl wants to proceed she will be responding very affirmatively.) If in strip club, guy: "I know that you get money here, to pay your rent. ($20 and feel up ensues. along with more talk." Then if she is responding well the guy backs himself up against a wall and pulls her to him, then when she looks ready he kisses her. They talk about how he wants to be seeing her outside and is jealous of her boyfriend. Then soon they are talking about going into the VIP room, and she asks how much money he can give her, he replies and an agreement is made and it happens. Now probably they will be waking up together in the mornings. But just here in the club, or attenuated on the sidewalk, the man has not solicited her. She has asked for him to state an amount of money, but she is legally exempted. So no one has broken any law! You have an effective de-criminalization. If you see it differently, how so? SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
Exempting one side, the woman, from the law against contracting for sex or lewd conduct, CA PC 647B, means that you can just have them lined up in Bars, Strip Clubs, or on the sidewalk. They are immune from being busted. [view link] TJ Oct 2019 [view link] Flirting, handing a girl money to show good intent, indoor feel ups, kissing her, all perfectly legal. And then when she asks for money, she is immune. And at that point she had better not be a cop. Giving her what she asks for is not unlawful, nor is having consensual sex with her. So the Nordic Model amounts to decriminalization. In strip clubs and AMPs, and on the sidewalk, I have never gone into direct solicitation, even with those who are still reluctant. I just keep talking and getting to know her, and almost always she will yield. And if I can kiss her, she will right from then on do whatever I want her to. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^No it doesn't. It means a chick can over-charge you or scam you and you can't do shit because you're committing a crime and she isn't. We need full scale decriminalization. Not this half assed shit.
CC99
4 years ago
Full scale decriminalization would be better. But in engaging with her as I have described above, you are not breaking any law. Sex is not unlawful. Sex with a consenting adult woman you just met is not unlawful. If that woman works in a strip club or is out on the sidewalk standing under a lamp post, it is still not unlawful. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
As it is in the US now, they trash the Constitution and due process, just to enforce the law against prostitution. This new Nordic model does not open any doors to that. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
Prostitution laws have always been notoriously hard to enforce legally. So when they are enforced it usually means entrapment, bullying people into pleading guilty, and all kinds of un-Constitutional things like, "Intent to engage in Prostitution", and generally making prostitution into a status crime, and this is un-Constitutional. And most of this falls on the women. This new Nordic approach makes it 50x harder to make a bust, unless you dealing with idiot men who solicit women and treat them like vending machines. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^^^ This is going to be awkward for you when you suddenly realize that you're advocating in favor of the "Nordic" model, rather than the "Moredick" model...
Call.Me.Ishmael
4 years ago
Its true, there's a litany of countries where prostitution is "illegal" but pretty much in name only. Look at Russia for example. Technically illegal but Russia may have more prostitutes per capita than any country in the world and you can literally look at websites like these... [view link] Where the girls cost $270 per night! Where their specific services are listed, their phone number and everything. Fucking Russia has more freedom when it comes to hookers than the US does goddamn.
CC99
4 years ago
Wow! [view link] Prostitution has always been controversial. In the US now, much of the force applied in enforcement is tied to this gross exaggeration of the idea of trafficking. So it is all seen as a vast human rights threat, rather than the low level misdemeanor, comparable to open alcohol container, which the law makes it. And then most of the anti-prostitution activism on the ground level is about gentrification. Locally on the Neighborhoods groups, residents identify prostitute and photograph them and pretty much force LE to act. Our SG are pretty much bag ladies, beyond the point where anyone would take them seriously as hookers. But this is what residents worry about. And then we have this new SR strip club, on E. Santa Clara Street, in building which had been a civvie night club, and before that a bank. Residents were posting about how that would increase the SG, like they are a back up for the strippers. So liberals do not go along with this. But Neo-Liberals like our Mayor Sam Liccardo do. It is about sanitizing society, so that upwards social mobility and money making can run smoother. As City Council member he opposed the SR ( Formerly San Jose Gold Club ) Liccardo also wants the city to buy up these two motels, in our main SG areas, and give them to the homeless to live in. Totally impractical. And our SG are not very appealing. They usually live hard lives, pimps get girls to beat them up, so that they will fall under control of the pimmp. Nasty, but mostly because it is criminalized. Okay, but the locals who are really on this are Sam Liccardo and County Supervisor Chidy Chavez. People call these two Liberals, but it is far from truth. They are Neo-Liberals. If they lived elsewhere they would be Republicans. Genuine progressives, like this one running for Mayor in Portland, they want full decriminalization, not sanitizing. Sanitizing would be like making a law against high heels. :) :) :) but these types would do it if they could. Many want decriminalization, but it is concerns over property values, and just concerns about people from the lower social classes which stop it. Very few of the people opposed to it have detailed understandings, like actually know sex workers. Sam Liccardo is an "urbanist", meaning he wants to set up "urban villages" and make the costs as high as possible. Most of it is about social class and socio-economics. Your more progressive people are probably involved in pro-sex and decriminalization activism. Margo St. James has been a leader, COYOTE ( Call Off Your Old Time Ethics ). She wanted a decriminalization zone in San Francisco. Voters in San Francisco are making LE list how much money they spend enforcing Prostitution laws. Great lawyer, and total progressive: [view link] Poly Sci Major from UC Santa Cruz. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
Honestly looking at the Russian website, I'm just stunned. I always thought TJ had the best deals but holy shit... This is on another level. I mean, for what you pay to get a TLN with a beautiful girl in Russia, in the US, wouldn't even buy you an hour. Truly insane.
CC99
4 years ago
US IS INSANE .
nemesisk7
4 years ago
In peru you get 1 hour of sex for 25-30 $ !!!!
nemesisk7
4 years ago
I have written extensively for about 15 years on Canada law. The Nordic model (C36 law) was passed after in a huge opinion the Supreme Court of Canada declared the prior law against incalls (1800s Bawdy house law) and living off the avails unconstitutional under their Charter of Rights and Freedoms "for the safety of the person" Outcalls were always legal. The Ontario Superior Court and affirmed by the Supreme Court that made it illegal made it less safe and reversed the incall and living of avails law. With C36, the major city Police Depts have put out press releases that they will not enforce under normal situations with consenting adults. Sometimes they will enforce based on complaints of street hookers. A few small towns have enforced and there is now a case in London Ont where an agency owner is was charged. The case is challenging the C36 law and many lawyers believe it will also be held unconstitutional based on the same "safety of persons" argument of the Supreme Court on prior law. Agencies have incalls all over Toronto for example. Under prior law, they were never bothered with "living off the avails" since they sold time, not sex. Likewise today they make it clear they sell time not sex and in many of the major cities have a working relationship with the police. For outcalls most agencies have drivers. I have a huge amount of info on my sexworkcanada and especially [view link] sites and as someone else mentioned [view link] is great- I have about 2400 posts there and was active like 15 years ago on the founder's prior site. By not enforcing the C36 "Nordic model" police go after real forced sex trafficking etc cases but do not waste their time with private consenting adults especially since C36 may not be constitutional under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Whoever loses the current London Court case will probably appeal and it may take a decade to get to the Supreme Court again as it did in the prior Bradford case that overturned the incall and living of avails prior law.
davephx
4 years ago
Well, that's an incredibly well informed post. Thank you. Based on my reading, what you're saying is that if I get an escort in Montreal, the chances of me getting arrested under the current enforcement of the Nordic laws are low enough to be considered negligible. I'm already under that impression, but I want to spell it out.
Call.Me.Ishmael
4 years ago
Thanks to Davephx for the history of the Nordic model in Canada. Two follow up questions, if you're willing to share your expertise/opinion: 1) is there any evidence that the C36 Nordic model has reduced trafficking, without ensnaring consenting adults 2) would the same result have been achieved by legalizing and regulating prositution?
Electronman
4 years ago
CC99, many other countries have vastly better escort offerings. US law enforcement does not stop escort services, it just dries up the quality. You get the women that are too old to work other places. They come her. Right now in the us, our laws make both parties open to prosecution when there is solicitation. Who ever solicits the other could be prosecuted. This Nordic Model, as I know makes it so only the man could be prosecuted, really the client. So this means that such a law means that prosecution is just about impossible. And there is no reason to solicit women. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^^^ Everyone is wondering, when are you going to STFU??
Mate27
4 years ago
^^^ Everyone is wondering when they are going to pull the plug on Meat72's life support. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^^^ Inquiring minds would like to know when you are going to STFU??
Mate27
4 years ago
[view link].Ishmael - Correct there is no problem hiring an escort in Montreal. The French Canadians are often more my type of intimacy (more than sex). I have [view link] but only from about 15 years ago as I have been going to Toronto ever since (and Victoria BC before that). Montreal PD did do a press release when C36 made law. Montreal is a bit less expensive for escorts however I don't know a word of French so seem English speakers (one reason I favor Toronto) I am tempted to return to Montreal this next summer. For escorts in either city I almost always use the reliable well known and reviewed agencies - there are many of them on the boards like [view link] Independents in general are more expensive. I basically will not spend more than $US200 an hour for a companion. Since we have about a 25% currency advantage that makes it about $250/CND. In Montreal often less than $CDN250. Electroman - 1) I don't recall studies but my guess is those that do non-consenting sex trafficking don't care about C36 and in Canada like the US, there sadly are forced and underaged prostitution that do not care about any laws. BTW, underaged is enforced in Canada obviously. The age of consent is 16 but not for sex services. In Canada, soliciting the sexual services of someone under 18 is a crime punishable by six months to 10 years in prison for first-time offenders. For example in 2017 headline, "Canadian police have arrested 104 men in connection with a child prostitution ring in and around the Toronto area. York Regional Police say ...Police targeted men who searched for prostitutes online, but did not arrest men who were seeking sex with an adult." 2) Regulation is a bad word since that implies public records of names and often undo restrictions. We prefer "decimalization" letting women be in charge of their own bodies and business not the government. However, I would support like in Germany requirement to use condoms for sex etc. Regarding STDs while I know of no study, I bet STD rates are far lower for "professional escorts" (not street hookers) than pickups in bars or non sexwork relationships. In Victoria B.C. even under the old law that outlawed incalls one large agency I know of and used, was warned to move out of Saanich since the council wanted to enforce the low bawdy house law, but they would be welcome in Victoria a few miles South. One major agency moved to the main street of Victoria (I have been there). The police checked at times but only to be sure they were licensed since Victoria did require a $100 license fee and of course wanted to be sure all were over age 18. I do not know if they were public records. In Arizona all escorts must display their license number in ads. Escort definition is very broad and would include any companion meeting incall or outcall. I have never yet seen an ad that complies because it would be a public record. Scottsdale made it criminal and have made criminal busts for escorting without a license. First offense is a mandatory 15 days in jail like the AZ prostitution law. In Toronto a few years ago I had an independent companion come to my hotel. Heaven knows how the cops thought see was a companion when she pulled into my hotel parking lot. They questioned her but made it clear there only concern was she was a consenting adult.
davephx
4 years ago
So Davephx, is it fair then to say that this Nordic Model, while falling short of full de-criminalization, that it still amounts to loosening up of restrictions and that if a man uses some common sense that the chances of being busted are far less than before? And then doesn't the sex biz improve under this new arrangement, better selections? SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
San-Jose-Guy Not really. Remember in Canada it is ILLEGAL for a customer to offer money for sex to an escort. The escort is totally legal but not the customer. It is only because of Police decisions in most major cities NOT TO ENFORCE C36 if private consenting adults. Most LE realizes it makes it safer for all than to force it underground where more likely to be abuse etc. Further, the constitutionality of C36 is now being challenged in the London case and it may be declared void for the "safety of persons" under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms just like the prior prostitution laws were voided by the Supreme Court of Canada.
davephx
4 years ago
"ILLEGAL for a customer to offer money for sex to an escort" But there is no reason to offer money for sex to an escort, or to any woman, money for sex. That is a bad way to engage with women. I treat all women as civilians, and in all situations. She can ask for money, and she will get it. But I will never say anything which suggests that I think that she "sells sex" or is motivated by money. Either one side or the other has to mention money first, or at least say something about it, or just pull it out. Either side could be busted, before. But now, one side is exempted. So everything can happen with zero risks. In AMPs, girls tell me, most guys are pilling up a stack of money, while lying face down on the table, trying to take her into sex. For me, it is more likely that I have just talked to her and then moved to kissing her, and then she will ask "do you want to do everything?" and then ask about money. No one has broken any law, nor will they. I treat women as civilians, always. I don't try to use money to persuade them. They still get it, but only after they have showed consent in principle to engaging in intimate acts. And all kinds of ways to introduce talk about money indirectly without it sounding like money for sex. And in a strip club you can just hand it to her in smaller increments, as most time and attention in a strip club does cost money. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
This Nordic Law means less enforcement, than the previous legal arrangements. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^^^ I told you 4 hours ago to STFU, and you’re still writing tgw same old bullshit drivel!!
Mate27
4 years ago
SJG - your right as in Canada but not the US. In US massage parlors are just stupid and why so many busts especially Asian. Even in Canada when incalls were illegal (outcalls always legal) there was a issue if a closed room in a "adult body rub" was a illegal bawdy house if sex was offered for a tip. In Canada, they avoid the whole issue by inclusive full price up front no silly tipping crap (I never have tipped a dancer, escort, massage gal." For example, I love to give massage (been professionally trained in Esalen) and the great response I usually get. So I have enjoyed the "nude-reverse" on the menu options especially in Mississauga (liberal ex Mayor Hazel who retired at about age 90). A "happy ending" was just part of the massage. No separte fee and never a legal problem even when anything sexual was illegal other than outcall. BTW, Brampton (in Toronto metro area) tried to outlaw the massage gal from being nude. The law was struck down by the Courts since being nude is not illegal. Canada has only one criminal code - national. Unlike the US with separate state and local laws. Canada does have licensing bylaws. The strip clubs in the city of Toronto violate the Toronto city bylaw if any physical contact. But a bylaw is not criminal only a licensing issue. Strip clubs in Mississauga have no such restrictions thanks to ex-Mayor Hazel. She once stated she would prefer any sexwork to be done in the open and not forced underground. She was Mayor like for 30 years until age about 90. In Toronto strip clubs the bylaw is not enforced much probably because it might be challenged in the courts if it was. However, due to potential problems, Toronto strip clubs have much less "extras" than Mississauga (Sauga) clubs which almost anything can be had in the VIPs and no one cares. VIP dances are $CDN20 and no fee to use the VIPs. For those that don't know Mississauga - the huge Pearson Intl Airport is in Sauga, just on the border of Toronto. I mostly avoid going downtown Toronto since the 401 highway is one of the most traveled in North America six-plus lanes some parts each direction with collectors and feeders. Even in non-rush hour it is often a slow crawl and very confusing collectors right or left exiting even though I have been on it many times. I have a friend downtown I often visit and have dinner with. We kind of split him coming out to where I stay or me taking the 401 to meet him.
davephx
4 years ago
WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy: san_jose_guy - Commonly referred to as SJG this forum member may have some sort of mental illness and is usually mocked or ignored. SJG has a long history of posting incendiary comments including being pro-rape. His comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate.
TrollWarnBot
4 years ago
Davephx, I am all for total decriminalization. But most places are not ready for this yet, and their may be some protections needed when we do that. But overall, the prostitution law is notoriously difficult to enforce, because it pertains to a contract, and their are only two people who know of this contract. If one of them is a cop, that usually means entrapment. Money, sex, condoms, all not illegal. Now, there are other laws, usually local ordinances, and retail business laws. These could get a business in trouble, but it is still not a criminal offense, and still hard to enforce. So in the US, AIK, all 50 states are pretty much the same. In CA it is PC-647(B) and it is defined as "contracting for sex or lewd conduct". As it had been, if either side solicits the other, they are violating the law and they are taking a risk. So usually both sides have learned how to minimize the risk. Now if by this Nordic Model they are exempting one side, then enforcement is just about impossible. And then, as I am certain, there is no reason to solicit women with money for sex, no reason at all. So in a strip club you can just hand them front room friendliness tips, maybe feel up tips, and maybe this can escalate to kissing or whatever. Usually woman will eventually as what you want and ask for money. But by this Nordic Model, no law is being broken. In a massage place I have found that the best is flirting in the front room, then feeling up an a nice makeout session in the session room. Then usually she will ask what you want and ask for money. And then now to play it safer, a lot of the girls just proceed and let it happen. When that has been done with the preliminary makeout session, the results are mind blowing for both parties. Then at the end you can hand her money. I always do. If you don't then I suppose she will ask. So even under current law, IF THE COPS ACTUALLY FOLLOW THE LAW, very hard to ever make a bust. But under this Nordic Model, it is 20x harder! SJG 25 TYPES OF KISSES!! [view link] Thank you founder for letting us see the list and count for our comments. I really helps in getting going on this site. Also, I have always limited the number of new threads I start. Too many threads makes it harder to navigate. So I never start a new thread until I have made at least 100 comments.
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
So many opinions about prostitution from a guy who has never seen a vagina...
Call.Me.Ishmael
4 years ago
If prostitution laws are so difficult to enforce and prosecute, why don't we hear of lawyers who specialize in defending those accused of soliciting (like the lawyers who specialized in DUI cases) and why don't we hear of more mongers getting off from solicitation charges?
Electronman
4 years ago
PC-647(B), a low level misdemeanor, comparable to public drunkenness or loitering. But still a very embarrassing and provocative type of charge. Most defendants plead guilty. Some jurisdictions have offered pre-trial diversion in order to elicit guilty pleas. And specialist lawyers are very expensive. Public Defenders are free. Also from my observation of our criminal courts, when cops have gone overboard and the defendant is standing firm, usually the defense will ask the prosecutor for motion to dismiss, and this is what usually then happens. With prostitution busts cops are usually responding to pressure from neighborhood residents, so they do go way over the limits. They shake down women at bus stops all the time, try to entrap them in speech, want to check their records, intimidate them, and want to search their purses, and all for the simple crime of just being female. Go back to the 70's, in those days the conventional wisdom was that it is impractical to try and enforce against street prostitution. And this is true, unless cops are told to go way over the due process provisions of our Constitution. So in the 80's, all kinds of horrible new tactics were unveiled. From San Jose in the early 80's, I listened to KGO Radio interview with Ronald Martinelli and a female colleague. They led the street prostitution unit and they wrote a book about it. Now Martinelli is a Police Tactics Consultant. He is always involved in extremely nefarious stuff. I have long suspected that he is an operative for the Federal Intelligence Community. [view link] Here on the Neighborhoods Groups they post pictures of street hookers. They follow them around, see where they go, and they pressure the cops. And these hookers are barely even believable, they are more like bag ladies. It is more of a socio-economic status issue than a sex crime issue, which motivates residents. In AMP busts cops are usually really pushing the limits, and the Asian girls do not know how to stand up to them. Consider, I am with a new girl in an AMP, massaging her tits and ass, and DFKing with her. Who could be the cop, and what law is being broken? So already very hard to enforce, and this Nordic Model makes it that much harder. And besides, no reason to every solicit a woman or to treat as though you see her as a prostitute. Here, UC Santa Cruz Poly Sci Major, now a specialist Criminal Defense Lawyer, and he is good: [view link] Anyone here been busted for prostitution/solicitation and want to talk about it? SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
Actually in maybe 200 cases I have followed in the Courts in Phoenix over the past 10-years I can only recall one that was dismissed (cleaning lady only). All entrapment defenses easily fail. Touching breasts is defined as sexual. Few attorneys specialize in prostitution crimes since almost all are going to be lost and few lawyers can afford the fees typically $10k or so. Therefore most defendants use a public defender. Just for protection although I know I never break the law paid $5k retainer just to have a sexwork friendly lawyer on call. Have never needed of course. FAR, FAR worse is the many FELONY cases. Anytime two or more people work together it is a felon (criminal enterprise). All the agencies in Phoenix shut down years ago not wanting to face 40 years in prison when they layer on money laundering charges every time they can trace money to a bank etc. Likewise all the local review boards shut down a few years ago since owners can be felony charged. There have been zillions of felony criminal enterprise cases in Phoenix. All massage parlors busts are felonies with the owner and every worker felony charged. Likewise, agencies all the gals felony charged for participating in a criminal enterprise. The most famous case which I attended five years of court hearings and trial and reported on, was the Phoenix Goddess Temple bust. 40 wonderful mostly older women believed in Tantra including the "root chakra" i.e. hand release as part of their offer to "seekers". All 40 women felony charged. I was in Court often when judge issued "Donald Advisement" warning they could face up to 40 plus years in prison if convicted. Over five years all workers took plea agreements for probation and the felony could later be converted to a misdemeanor. However, the original felony conviction still can be found and by employers etc. The leader (Tracy) claimed was just practicing her religion and after a long jury trial was convicted by the jury in about an hour. She was sentenced to five years in prison. (the max like 40 years is just possible if all the counts run consecutive). She was indicted on about 10 counts but judge let them be concurrent and lower end of range. Tracy appealed and lost on Appeal. She appealed to the AZ Supreme Court who recently refused to take the case. She was released a few months ago getting credit for about a year of time served in Phoenix jail awaiting trial since she could not make bail. This is just one of the many Phoenix cases I have followed the court records on and reported on via a private list I've had by email, although no longer active, although still have 350 escorts subscribed (free) but haven't done any update for a while since so much has changed under FOSTA. Years ago when we had about 1500 members in Phoenix hosted popular "sky high condo" parties for escorts and guys. Not just bar meet but had presentations, introductions discussions of issues not just a meet and greet. I also have been involved in the national decrim legal fight that challenged the California prostitution law with some of the best briefs and friend of the court filings including ACLU top attorneys. Sadly lost both at lower level and appeal to the 9th circuit. Likewise, I was on the legal committee for the large swing club after in 1999 swing clubs were made illegal in Arizona. Lots of great attorneys and lost all the way, including the 9th Circuit. Phoenix was ground zero in many other police from other cities have been trained by Phoenix LE and the anti-sex all sexwork is abuse of women and all related to sex trafficking, now rules in the U.S. There is also a strong anti-group in Canada but they have the safety of person provision in their Charter that wins based on the higher risk when it is not legal. And only Federal Criminal law not State or local criminal laws.
davephx
4 years ago
Interesting history. Thanks davephx. It does not paint a very optimistic picture for mounting a legal defense of prostitution charges. I've never had any legal issues but it saddens me to think of all the wasted resources and disrupted lives that have resulted from efforts to prevent consenting adults from exchanging sex for money (or other valuables).
Electronman
4 years ago
Davephx, thanks for sharing your information with us. Do you have links that we could go to to look read more? Just here to play Devil's Advocate a bit, dismissal is rare in all criminal cases. "Touching breasts is defined as sexual." Well what do you mean by that, if I am massaging the breasts of a dolled up Vietnamese hottie, am I entrapping her? Hardly. Am I violating any law? Sexual activities between consenting adults are perfectly legal. After some feeling up and sexual massaging of her everywhere, and great deal of DFKing we are going to get down to FS. But by that time we have each gone way beyond the limits of what an on duty police officer can do. And there has been zero talk about money. Usually then the girl will ask. But sometimes locally now just to play it safe and make it more fun, they don't ask until we are all done. She will still get the money, and more if she wants, even if she never says a single word about it. But they have gotten more reserved about mentioning it. How could I bust her, how could she bust me? How lawfully could a cop bust either or both of us. Now the problem is though that cops do not follow the law. They don't wait until they have evidence of a crime to bust people. But the reason they are getting away with this is that the vast majority of defendants plead guilty. If they plead not guilty, then court should exclude the improperly obtained evidence. And even if they won't do that, it should be possible to get a jury completely outraged at the cops. In this state they can charge the bosses with Pandering, a felony with a 3 year minimum. It is serious, but not for the two people directly involved. I have never heard of anyone being charged with Criminal Conspiracy. And again, convincing a jury to see it that way might not be so easy. Part of what hardens the public's attitude about sex work is this greatly exaggerated idea of Trafficking. It makes a minor misdemeanor sound like a major human rights violation. Phoenix Goddess Temple, now in Sedona, you can book right now. [view link] Swinger's Clubs Illegal now in AZ? AZ has long been a Swinger's Mecca, like they say in that movie Raising Arizona. [view link] I am all in favor of total decriminalization. But so far that has not happened in many places. But getting back to the OP, can we agree that changing to this Nordic Model makes it far far more difficult for LE to bust anyone, so difficult that they pretty much need to give up? Can you show us some links to further illuminate us? SJG The president and his enablers have replaced conservatism with an empty faith led by a bogus prophet. [view link] TJ School Girls [view link] The Faces - Maybe I'm Amazed [view link] Maggie May [view link]
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^^^ Did you track down your AAMP crush, Donna in the purple dress, today? If so, did you kiss her during your session?
Mate27
4 years ago
She died from Leukemia a number of years ago. But all our local AMP girls from back then knew the story of how she was washing her car and wearing a purple dress. Each time she got busted she went to a different county, and started using a different name. But the locals all new the story about the car washing. If I asked them they would supply the detail of the purple dress. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
^^^ You must have given her some sort of std with your penis to get Leukemia. That’s so sad. Sorry to hear.
Mate27
4 years ago
^^^^^^ [view link] SJG Pleaser 10" Thig Highs [view link] Year of the Rat 1/25/2020
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
Friend sent me these: [view link] [view link] Still there is no reason to solicit women if you just want sex. Not the best way ever. And if she really is trying to do sex for money, you can proceed without ever soliciting her. People here think this is some kind of feminist attack against men. Nothing of the sort. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
SJG - No undercover cop is going to allow you to feel her up, DFK, etc. She would arrest you for assault. Massaging breasts is prohibited sexual contact. In the normal situation, an offer of or for money is typically received by an undercover the bust and conviction is very easy. Virtually no cases have been successfully challenged. Arizona Laws 13-1401 - (similar in most states) "Sexual contact": (a) Means any direct or indirect touching, fondling or manipulating of any part of the genitals, anus or female breast by any part of the body or by any object or causing a person to engage in such contact. It has to be for money or other valuable consideration. So in a strip club if I massage breasts I am not paying to do so, only for the lap dance. Under Phoenix and similar city strip club licensing laws (sexually-orientated business provision), it is not allowed. Under the code even if two people are fully clothed and hug it is a violation if its a close hug that includes breast contact even when both are fully clothed. Undercover cops at Hi-LIter have busted dancers for prostitution when they offer and HJ or oral for a specific tip. The Z family that owns Hi-Liter is being targeted so they will not get the license they are after for Centerfolds which they now own as part of a larger group of club owners after a bouncer threw out a drunk customer but hit his head on the ground and died. The city does not want that club to ever get a liquor license so target the big club of the owners (Hi-Liter). Centerfolds is still open but only the small non-alcohol side with a no-contact policy. To see what was going, a few years ago went there and had a great discussion with a dancer about events. I was a bit shocked when she told me one of the owners was there and hearing about me wanted to meet me (not the Z family but an owner in the group that also owns another club). So this huge burly guy introduces himself and we go off into the closed huge dance area with chairs etc. For about 45 minutes he discusses all the events and legal team and issues since he knew I am well connected in the club scene. Very nice guy! This city law was passed in1999 - I testified against it and hearings and against the outlawing of swing clubs. Dancers had to sit on the arms of chairs - not in laps and clubs were fined or closed for a period with heavy enforcement. Then there was a period of non-enforcement. Today enforcement is limited to certain clubs it seems and floor managers differ in what they allow in different clubs and up the dancer in some clubs informally. Pandering - In Arizona if I encourage someone to see a person that offers sexual acts and she charges a consideration, I can be charged with a pimping felony. That is why all the local Phoenix review/discussion boards shut down a few years ago. Likewise, board owners all over the US have been similarly charges (Seattle, Tucson, etc). Phoenix Goddess Temple - She is back on Facebook but is not offering any "services" in Sedona or anywhere else, just her feminist goddess stuff preaching. AZ Swing clubs - My Secret House was shut down. As the link to their website says have plans for the future. We do not know how Club Encounters and Discretions continues when the much nicer huge 12,000-foot club (Club Chameleon aka Club C) was told to shut down or go to jail after they lost the battle in the 9th Circuit (I was on the legal committee). The story I reported on extensively on [view link] and local New Times at [view link] Note they list my Liberated Christian although our Phoenix Couples Group of 350 folks I ended like 10 years ago. We are still listed as a Cyber Resource Center and get lots of traffic even though I haven't updated the site in like 10 years. But many find helpful to get over Christian guilt issues. BTW New Times also did a funny article on my Liberated Christians group. It was featured on the front page. The article without some of the funny pictures is still up at [view link] Years ago I knew the owners of Encounters and Discretions and we met with the Phoenix Chief of Police while the Club C case was pending or under appeal at the 9th Circuit. Had a good meeting and the Chief agreed to discontinue to license plate checks of all the cars in club parking lots to see if any outstanding traffic warrants. The two clubs that remain are a bit not really my type vs the nice Club C. I would never consider going as a single male when they are allowed usually only to watch exhibitionist couples not my thing. I did go with some gals to Club C a few times. Including with porn star Nina Hartley who very much supported Liberated Christians etc. I have a picture of her and my companion on my lap from the club. Nina is very much into sex education and positive sexuality much more than just making porn movies. Still has educational stuff at [view link] I believe the others listed meet in private homes or venues for different events which is legal if you don't charge a fee directly or not a place normally used as a sexually oriented business. Although I don't think any are currently active. There is a huge BDSM group in Phoenix but there is no sex permitted at events to avoid legal issues. I disagree with your ending point. No, the Nordic Model, if enforced, makes it easy to bust customers just not "prostitutes" Fortunately in most of Canada local LE does not enforce it since enforcement makes people less safe and the new C36 law is being challenged as unconstitutional just like the old law on incalls etc.,was voided.
davephx
4 years ago
"SJG - No undercover cop is going to allow you to feel her up, DFK, etc. She would arrest you for assault. Massaging breasts is prohibited sexual contact." That's right. But adults can consent to such, and so she is not a cop, and I am not a cop. We are two adults engaging in lawful sexual contact. "In the normal situation, an offer of or for money is typically received by an undercover the bust and conviction is very easy. Virtually no cases have been successfully challenged." I have NEVER offered a woman money for sex, nor will I. Just not a good idea, legal or not. I always treat them like civilians. Okay, these local ordinances about strip clubs are unconstitutional. They are a real problem. But they have little to do with the state penal code against prostitution. This later is very hard to enforce. But that former is made to destroy strip clubs. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
WARNING - The following accounts are considered to be forum trolls and may not be trustworthy: san_jose_guy - Commonly referred to as SJG this forum member may have some sort of mental illness and is usually mocked or ignored. SJG has a long history of posting incendiary comments including being pro-rape. His comments should NOT be taken in any way as legitimate.
TrollWarnBot
4 years ago
Is Liberalizing the prostitution law being made part of a broader Right Wing agenda to separate off and denigrate a portion of the female population? Here, a friend sent me the law section for Ohio. Basically the same as for CA, the issue is soliciting. And it is symmetrical. Who ever does the soliciting of sex for hire is committing a crime. This is only but one of the reasons I NEVER talk to women that way. So Electronman and Davephy, I am all for decriminalization. And the Nordic Model is not full decriminaliztion. But why are you so concerned about it, as it is looser in every way than present US laws? Are you guys looking at this in conjunction with other Right Wing political positions, declaring some women less than other women, and are you looking for liberalization of the prostitution laws to deliver these women to you? "Phoenix Goddess Temple - She is back on Facebook but is not offering any "services" in Sedona or anywhere else, just her feminist goddess stuff preaching. " Her facebook page does not say anything problematic, but I would suspect that if you visit, she or her girls will fuck you. We have had lots of very similar groups, tantra, Ishtar, Goddess, Sacred Sex. I always approach sex that way. She is in Sedona now, glad she is still in action. [view link] Are your concerns about the Nordic Model tied to a broader Right Political agenda which wants to eliminate the social safety net and eliminate public support for child care, and even public schools, and in general make the United States more like a third world country? Davephx wrote, "Arizona Laws 13-1401 - (similar in most states) "Sexual contact": (a) Means any direct or indirect touching, fondling or manipulating of any part of the genitals, anus or female breast by any part of the body or by any object or causing a person to engage in such contact." Such contact is perfectly legal if it is between consenting adults and not for money. What I have described is such, not overtly or explicitly for money. davephx wrote, "It has to be for money or other valuable consideration. So in a strip club if I massage breasts I am not paying to do so, only for the lap dance. Under Phoenix and similar city strip club licensing laws (sexually-orientated business provision), it is not allowed. Under the code even if two people are fully clothed and hug it is a violation if its a close hug that includes breast contact even when both are fully clothed." Almost always these strip club ordinances are not part of the criminal code, there are not criminal penalties for those who violate. The only consequences is that the club could be closed. Many of these could also be found to be unconstitutional. "Undercover cops at Hi-LIter have busted dancers for prostitution when they offer and HJ or oral for a specific tip." And that is the law in all 50 states. But the Nordic Model would exempt the woman from any prosecution. So the Nordic Law is an improvement. In local AMPs, the girls are too smart to talk like that. If I am involved, there will tend to be a preliminary makeout session, so not much talk will ever be necessary to make things happen. And there will be lots of nuzzling and she can whisper in my ear, as we also talk about our subsequent outside meetings, maybe even starting that night. "Pandering - In Arizona if I encourage someone to see a person that offers sexual acts and she charges a consideration, I can be charged with a pimping felony. That is why all the local Phoenix review/discussion boards shut down a few years ago. Likewise, board owners all over the US have been similarly charges (Seattle, Tucson, etc). " Pandering is always the law which has teeth, same in CA. I think the Nordic Model would neutralize this. Discussion boards need to be careful, but the Nordic Model would seem to be a move towards legal relaxation, so why do you worry about it? [view link] Swinger's clubs and BDSM clubs seem to be doing fine an AZ. But, they have had to be careful. Most places have laws against public sex and lewd conduct. So these clubs do not operate as retail businesses, they operate as membership clubs. This puts them outside the scope of such laws. If someone wants to pass a generic law which applies even in private that would certainly be ruled as unconstitutional, as it always has been. And then this really has nothing to do with the prositution law, which the Nodic Model is a liberalization of. [view link] So long as it is not for money or in a public place like a retail business, there is no law against sex between consenting adults. This Nordic Model does not change this, rather it narrows the ways in which the prostitution law can be applied. [view link] Yes, Nina Hartley is real neat. Often the spokes person for women in porn. She also danced for the Mitchell Brothers. She is very much a pro-sex feminist. BSDM groups function, they just need to structure it as a membership group, private event, just like Swingers Clubs do. If we change to the Nordic Model, it is much harder to bust anyone, because the woman can do the soliciting with total immunity. I don't see why you are so harsh about it, as it is a huge loosening over what we have in the US now. And generally I do not see any reason to solicit women. It is just a bad means of engaging with them. I do not do it and I would never do it. SJG Electric Blues Playlist [view link]
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
This Nordic model is not total decriminalization. But it exempts the woman from any penalties for soliciting. So as I see it, this is a huge improvement over how it is in the US. If you exempt the woman, then where as the law was difficult to enforce, not it will be virtually impossible. But it turns out that there are a lot of people clearly on the Right, like some in the MG-TOW and Men's Rights Movement who are angered by this law. They see it as a feminist conspiracy against men. Why would they think this? A man can be arrested for soliciting a woman today in any of the 50 states. I feel that their views are tied to a misogynistic and broader Right agenda which wants to stigmatize and subjugate a caste of women, denying them full social and civil standing, and that liberalizing the laws against prostitution are part of this. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
So they want to liberalize the prostitution laws, not because they want to liberate women, but because they see such legal changes as subjugating and stigmatizing women. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
Well... this has become yet another shambling zombie thread. #thanksSJG
Call.Me.Ishmael
4 years ago
Those countries view prostitution like they do drug use, as a health crisis rather than a criminal problem. They have the healthcare systems to support such measures. Our private system can't handle it. Prostitution will only be legal in the US if its adequately regulated or if laws concerning Illegal labor are rewritten. As women trade sex for resources all the time but prostitution is illegal as its illegal labor.
IceyLoco
4 years ago
Labor laws are violated on a small scale all the time. WHen people get busted for prostitution they don't enforce the labor laws, they enforce the prostitution law. Prostitution laws intended to protect Women, Men, and the entire society. But as many see it now, this is totally wrong headed. So I say, decriminalize, but there still need to be some legal protections for for both women and men. BUt many on the Right seem totally frightened of this Nordic Model, because as it is partial deciminalization, it also still offers some removal of stigma from the women. I think it is an improvement. But I feel that some on the Right want to use liberalization of the prostitution law to stigmatize and subjugate women. SJG
san_jose_guy
4 years ago
Kind of like increasing the price of gas to reduce consumption. Then why not license and tax prostitutes and make it legal but controlled
jestrite50
2 years ago
Well, decades ago prostitution advocates often looked to the Amsterdam model of legalization and licensing. No one has ever looked to the Nevada model. But today, most want just de-criminalization. If you allow any way which cops can get into the loop it will be used in a persecutorial manner. [view link] very good: Decriminalizing Sex Work Panel Discussion [view link] very good: Seattle [view link] SJG Eric Clapton - Badge [Live in Hyde Park 1996]. [view link]
san_jose_guy
2 years ago
If you believe all acts of prostitution involve men trafficking women, then the Nordic approach is rational. If you believe most acts of prostitution involve two consenting adults, this approach is bonkers.
mark94
2 years ago
I'm pretty sure theres a proven correlation between Canadian protitutes and HIV outbreaks. No, seriously.
gammanu95
2 years ago
That's basically what decriminalization is. It's intended to help the prostitute. Instead of being arrested she can get psychological help career training help with housing etc. She can seek help without fear. So prostitution is decriminalization. Solicitation is still a crime though so customers get arrested.
Icee Loco (asshole)
2 years ago
Heaving the key to getting a woman to do what you want is to make her think it's her idea.
Icee Loco (asshole)
2 years ago
What would Friday be on TUSCL discussions without a zombie thread? We have to admit there are real problems with sex work. Rickish PLs. People with mental health and substance abuse problems who do sex work as a crutch. Only very fucked up social conservatives supported the older approach, primarily criminalizing sex workers not PLs. The Nordic Model is a thin coat feminist whitewash, slapped on to make persecuting all PLs and sex workers appeal to the woke.
ilbbaicnl
2 years ago
True, Rick's never indicated he'd actually assault a dancer. But you have to wonder if he would, if he thought he could get away with it. When a dancer seems to be in a bind, he doesn't consider the negative emotions that would cause her. Just sees it as an opportunity for him.
ilbbaicnl
2 years ago
Sounds like a recipe for selective enforcement and disparate treatment.
Studme53
2 years ago
Heaving the key to getting a woman to do what you want is to make her think it's her idea ^ This applies to hardheaded men too that won't listen for shit. Gotta get them to do what you want in a roundabout way
blahblahblah23
2 years ago
YES, the customer can be arrested. No, the prostitute cannot. YES, the entire point of these "laws" are based in extreme radical feminazism. Women are victimized saints and men are dispicable abusing monsters. Thats the ideological premise behind all of this. According to polls, if you can believe them, a majority of people in Scandinavia. France, Canada, etc, accept this premise. Basically men are "bad" for wanting to have sex with women. Women wanting to have sex with women or men, or men wanting to have sex with men are "not bad." Thats apparently where much of humanity is now in terms of their beliefs.
Dave_Anderson
2 years ago
Actually most acts of prostitution are women conning money out of lonely horny men by taking advantage of their higher sex drive. Pimps and other scum inject themselves into the scenario to take advantage of the situation but there would be plenty of women willing to exploit men through sex for money or anything else they can get from them regardless of any "middlemen" (or "middlepeople").
Dave_Anderson
2 years ago
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