This thread, https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7990…, got me thinking. Am I the only PL on here who has conflicting feelings about commercial sex? Seems like strippers come from families in the bottom 50% of household incomes, or have very dysfunctional personalities, or both. I'm not one to think its typically due simply to a bad moral choices when someone has a dysfunctional personality. I worked for what I have, but I'm also grateful for the good breaks that also helped me be where I'm at. Breaks that most people don't get.
Then again, many of our PL members seem to have very dysfunctional personalities, so maybe for them that's a wash.
I don't have any conflicting feelings about commercial sex when it is a voluntary transaction between two consenting adults. I would avoid a situation where the other person is being physically coerced to do something with me. Some people will say it is a form of coercion if a girl is doing it because she really needs the money but almost everyone does things on their job that they don't like to get money. Strippers have decided stripping is better than other available jobs or finding a guy who will support them.
+1 on docsavage’s views. It’s not rocket science, if you set aside the virtue-signaling in one’s navel-gazing. Absent coercion, it’s a transaction with a willing buyer & willing seller.
Hoes see tricks as preying on them. It's why they have no problem fucking them over or using them. To them anyone not jn on the hustle is a legit mark. And that stems from the way most tricks are. But hoeing isn't a choice. They do it coz they lack other options. Although some girls will glamorize it to lessen the psychological blow. Most can't do their job sober for a reason.
Hence I said vulture, not predator. We are not preying upon sex workers. What I'm saying is that it seems like we are benefiting from the fact that some people get fewer good breaks than others. I'm not saying that I or anyone should stop going to strip clubs. But you can't make virtue a bad thing by calling it virtue signaling. I try not to be pushy with strippers. I generally tip them up to at least $20 a song, if the club's price for a dance is less than that. Although nominally traditionalist conservatives don't embrace it, "count your blessings" is a traditional phrase. Which implies that you should make an effort to pass along your good breaks to those who haven't gotten as many. Rather than pressing your advantage.
<blockquote><q>What I'm saying is that it seems like we are benefiting from the fact that some people get fewer good breaks than others.</q></blockquote>
You exploit workers when you buy stuff off Amazon or go to restaurants or drive-thrus that pay their workers minimum wage. You exploit people when you buy Nestle products. Strippers aren't the only ones being exploited. Out of all the exploited workers out there, strippers are at least making the most bank.
Probably what dancers love most about customers is when they make sweeping, condescending generalizations about them without actually knowing them at all. For example...
"Seems like strippers come from families in the bottom 50% of household incomes, or have very dysfunctional personalities, or both."
"many of our PL members seem to have very dysfunctional personalities, so maybe for them that's a wash."
If you want a thread to talk out your own issues, then do that. But why would people be interested in having that discussion with you if this is your thought process? I looked at your other thread, and my general take is for you to work on you. When you're good with yourself, you'll have more clarity on how your hobby may or may not affect the lives of other people.
Way too deep a topic to have deep discussions about on a web site, particularly this web site, but a couple food for thought comments…
- Coercion can take many non monetary forms, like the guy who teaches the retarded kid to do blowjobs, or the boss who promises a leg up for sex favors. Having arms length transactions on a mostly level field is not taking advantage of someone’s situation. If you think sex workers are disadvantaged and you choose to take advantage of that, then you are indeed a bad human.
- sex workers who go into the profession with eyes wide open and do well are to be admired. It is one of the tougher businesses and being good at it (i.e. successful) takes skill and talent, like most professions
- it’s hard to respect someone if you think you are better than they are. It comes off as pity. Be respectful and above all, be kind.
BTW, mjx01, you need to read a text book. Your definition of capitalism sounds like “find someone who is disadvantaged and take advantage of them”. That sounds much more like law of the jungle anarchy bullshit. And if that’s how you operate I hope we never meet.
@ilbbaicnl, you almost have it, the secret to being a good person is “If you know it’s the wrong thing to do, don’t fucking do it”. Or at least try to not do it. 😏
We all have our own sense of right and wrong. It’s a slippery slope to ask others to validate something you do but you think is wrong and thus you feel conflicted about
Can I get a quick definition of 'sex worker'?
Not a flame war. I think it's a positive term.
Silly me would think a stripper would actually have to, well, have sex itc or otc to qualify.
If simply creating the illusion of sex counts, then does the hotter female staff count?
I can’t get there with this allegory, how do you even equate being a vulture with spending some time with a pretty sweet gal and enjoying her company, this is stupid to say the least.
Capitalist society is exploiting by its very nature.
I would say the sex workers are vultures trying to pick at customers. While the customers are predators knowingly taking advantage of their situation.
Generally the nature of time spent by customers with the girls shows greed and control issues. It's like renting a slave in their minds and knowing she'll go along coz she needs the money.
Without evidence to the contrary, I believe we're consenting adults who have agreed to exchange cash for services. If she chooses to dance or have sex rather than work at an Amazon warehouse or be a receptionist at a doctor's office, or choose this method to put herself through med school (LOL) then that's her prerogative.
Mutually consenting adults is exactly right. I've met tons of wonderful women who most certainly have other options but choose sex work for the $$$, are good natured and even enjoy it.
Icee's comments are so ignorant I have to assume he/she has very limited exposure to actual SW. There is a low-end fringe that can be exploitative but it is not representative.
The top line for my consideration: Mutual consent is the only absolute requirement. I'm not in a club looking to analyze societal dynamics and I threw out my "Captain Save a Ho" cape a long time ago.
If she's down and I'm down, then it's on. Yes, if I see signs of coercion, trafficking, or worse, I'm out. But that's it. No judgement, no guilt. I like to have sex with beautiful women who agree to have sex with me.
What's ignorant is pretending it's just a friendly exchange of money for a service. But I guess whatever makes you feel better about yourself. Ignorant fuck
When I was in my early 20’s a guy (of a similar age) drove past me, and shouted from his red Mercedes to inform me that selling drugs got him that great car. He made a choice to sell drugs, and he was enjoying the benefits. Whether his drug selling would provide a good income as he aged, and whether he would be able to support a family, was yet to be seen.
Strippers are faced with similar choices. They can choose the stripper route, and start making good money at a young age. The danger is, after they’ve stripped for 10 years, they have become accustomed to men giving them things, and that becomes less realistic in other occupations.
I wonder if there is a proverbial tipping point where a stripper must move to a different line of work, or she will end up aging out of her field?
We aren’t vultures. We are providing dancers with money (based on services provided). That’s all this is.
ilbbaicnl, the Asian, Black, and Hispanic women who do sex work are just trying to earn a living.
But it is the White women you have got to be on alert with. They aren't really doing it to earn a living. They do it because they have been set up as the family scapegoat. And they lead very destructive lives.
I don't think anyone here is truly brain damaged or never made it past the 4th grade. So, the only reason they are equating a vulture with a predator is because they are in deep denial. Perhaps they are so self-loathing, they need to distort what others are saying in order to feel superior to them. Or they are too weak to face a simple truth. Pretty much all of us make trade-offs between ideal behavior and our desires.
Would you disagree the women generally feel at least some repulsion to the thought of being a lap dancer, particularly if it involves extras? Then, what's your theory as to why some of them do it? I'd assumed that non-silly people would all answer, lots and lots of money. So it surprised me, in the other thread, to see such conviction that $10 a dance is plenty, math be damned.
Women sell their bodies out of different levels of desperation. They don't do it because they want to, love sex so much or want to. If that were the case they'd fuck you for free.
When men try to haggle the cost of sex or try to low ball them it just builds resentment in them.
Before or after turning a trick the first person she runs to is her dealer. Most get high to cope with prostitution themselves. That's how a lot of drug habits start.
It's very naive to think a hooker likes you or likes the idea of sex with you.
And of course she won't tell a customer how she really feels about them. It's bad for business.
You're not there when all she wants is a long hot shower and to not be touched by anyone. When she wants to go out in sweats and without makeup hoping men won't look at her. Needing to get high to deal with tricks and the psychological aftermath.
Meanwhile the trick goes home to his wife then brags on tuscl how he paid a hoe.
For many a real pimp is the only one there for her who understands her. Who teaches her that any hustle needs an exit strategy. The goal is to hustle til you don't have to.
@wallanon, I figure Icee is lying about the great majority of his persona, I just can't figure if it's 75% or 95%. Some of the bizarre shit he says has to be true, only because no one would make up some of this shit unless they wanted to make themselves more of a target. His sister being a stripper. The heroin suicide thing. The heart thing (if only because I doubt he's got the intelligence to look up the names of all those drugs).
He actually created a screenname to bolster everything he said. Literally, most of this s/n's posts were "Icee is real, yo." And changed his screenname to say good things about himself, like we couldn't see it was also him.
There are many women who are completely self affirming who do sex work with justified pride. No one is taking any advantage of them, and they don't try to get emotional support from Pimps, Ponces, or Johns.
And you Icee have no idea what I do and you have no idea what is up with the women I know, and I have never partaken with a woman who was being mistreated and I would not.
Right coz hookers working in amps and Ines being passed around in frfs sessions and fucking as many guys as they can out of minivans must be doing great in life and have wonderful working conditions.
And you're right I don't know what you do. Except that you dated a girl jn a mental asylum. Know how to start a fiat. Want to run a sex cult and believe we need the private club model so we can have whore houses like in tinuana where we can get frmos.
A few years ago you had more sane threads. Liks you admitted you were into gfes. Sounded more normal then came back all weird after the shut downs
===> "I don't think anyone here is truly brain damaged or never made it past the 4th grade. So, the only reason they are equating a vulture with a predator is because they are in deep denial. Perhaps they are so self-loathing, they need to distort what others are saying in order to feel superior to them. Or they are too weak to face a simple truth."
Or perhaps it's because you communicate like shit. Or perhaps everyone easily saw through your passive aggressive labeling game to what you were actually implying with your post. 😉
Yeah like you pretending you're special coz you take months to coerce hookers to fuck you for $$$. Stalk them til they're desperate enough then tell us how you're a great family man
Icee your knowledge seems limited to the low end scene like on the streets. Indeed that is where the exploitation and desperation may be common. Many of us completely avoid this scene (I do). But there is a vast world of SW off the streets where women do this work voluntarily, without coercion. Many of them are buying homes and nice cars.
No. I'm talking about girls working strip clubs. Who are the same girls working hotels on slow nights. Regular clubs at last call and have adds online .
And no they're not buying houses coz they don't qualify for mortgages. But a nice place And a nice car means nothing. Youre pretending like the fantasy that they sell is real.
The very first words spoken by my professor in my first graduate level economics class was “economics is the study of scarce resources and how those resources are allocated”
And capitalism is an economic system based on market competition and the pursuit of profit
So it’s not whether mjx01 needs to read a book, he understands the definition. Whether the system is a good one or not is another deeper discussion but let’s not insult others for understanding the true meaning of a pure capitalist economy (which BTW doesn’t exist in practice)
That’s why I like the milf Brazilian strippers at the Playhouse, Burlington NJ.
They’re pros, healthy, fit (you have to be look that good nude in your 40s and 50s) drug free, not stigmatized or ashamed in their community, not exploited by anyone, and provide consistent drama-free service for a reasonable price. They’re happy and comfortable with their business model.
Motörhead - I’m not doubting you or your prof re: the definition of capitalism. I was correcting mjx when he defined capitalism as “taking advantage of the those that are disadvantaged”. That situation might happen in a capitalist system but it is not the definition. That situation can and does happen in communist and other systems also.
@wld what city is this where you see "many" SWs buying homes and nice cars?
Obviously, you can't go around asking people what they make. But sometimes favs will throw out numbers spontaneously. Most times, it seems to me the numbers they give are 2 - 3 times higher than what you'd guess from looking at their lifestyle. But, maybe I just underestimate how much money people can spend on consumable luxuries. Constantly hear dancers complaining about old cars that are limping along.
Young people in general think you have to spend money to look like you have money. Which is why many are broke trying to impress others. Girls especially are like that...and strippers sometimes go overboard
===> "Yeah like you pretending you're special coz you take months to coerce hookers to fuck you for $$$. Stalk them til they're desperate enough then tell us how you're a great family man"
Am I supposed to feel bad about fucking hot (and consenting) girls half my age? 😂
Icee, you are being completely persumptuous talking about the women I know, acting like you somehow know that they are pulling the wool over my eyes.
In Apartment AMPS (AAMPS) most of the women are only here for a few months. They reside in Asia. But they are still very much in charge of their own affairs. I do not recommend getting involved with those women though, not enough committed to the US.
In Store Front AMPS (AMPS) the women are as Americanized as any of us are. They own houses and have kids. The young girls are on a stint coming up from Los Angeles, but that is just because they don't want window shoppers to recognize them and gossip.
You should not assume that you know about people's affairs or that you can talk shit about them.
Everyone has thier own line. If you are as respectful with the girl as you would your girlfriend then I dont see any problem. its the guys who see girls as thier playthings or possessions that need counseling.Most dancers arent saints. Most have the means to use the money they earn to better themselves but dont have the patience or care to. But even so at the end of the day it's someone's mother, daughter, or wife you are dealing with. Even if she is lazy or looks down on you for paying for service treat her humanely.
@NJB there are things about my job that I have learned to calmly, even cheerfully, endure, but doesn't mean I like them. So I'm never totally convinced lap dancers actually find it easy to dance for me. I try to adjust the ways I touch them, how hard or soft, to their preferences. Often they seem to feel like they're getting a halfway decent amateur massage, but I'm never strongly confident of that.
But aside from that, there's still the stigma of the occupation. People who are bigoted against strippers, or women who otherwise get naughty with lots of people, are dumb and self-satisfied. But most people choose to be with flawed people, because the only realistic alternative is being alone. So dancing cuts down ones SO options. No, we are not (inherently) responsible for that. Just as a vulture is not responsible for the deaths of the animals it sustains itself on.
Strip clubs are sad depressing places. There aren't happy endings. The problem is customers too socially retarded or too narcissistic to accept jts just an empty business transaction.
The question rests on the assumption that dancers are (within the metaphor...) carrion. Or as ilbbaicnl put it, "Seems like strippers come from families in the bottom 50% of household incomes, or have very dysfunctional personalities, or both."
Which is to say, we're the ones who are constantly picking over the carcasses of broken, disadvantaged women. That's not true. Or, more accurately, that's not predominantly true.
Are there guys out there who intentionally target women in tough emotional or financial situations?... yes, that absolutely happens.
[Let's pretend that all the Rick Dugan jokes have been made, and move on.]
But are there also dancers who target drunk, inexperienced, dysfunctional guys who have more money than sense?... yes, that also absolutely happens.
That said, I believe that both of those behaviors exist at distant, thin ends of a bell curve. The tall middle of the bell curve is regular guys who go to the club looking for a good time, and dancers who will provide that to the customer for pay. And then those two people talk to each other and reach a deal.
And it has to be that way, because if all clubbing involved dancers and customers picking over the remains of one another, then no one would want to be there. All strip clubs would suck. That's not a viable business model.
So, while both scavenging (and predatory) behavior exists in strip clubs on both sides of the customer / dancer equation, it is not and never has been the baseline for all strip club interactions.
But I guess there are some guys who go into strip clubs to... ummm... stroke their guilt/ self-loathing fetish. I try not to kink shame, but that's not my thing.
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They're the vultures.
Drop your guard at your own peril.
You exploit workers when you buy stuff off Amazon or go to restaurants or drive-thrus that pay their workers minimum wage. You exploit people when you buy Nestle products. Strippers aren't the only ones being exploited. Out of all the exploited workers out there, strippers are at least making the most bank.
"Seems like strippers come from families in the bottom 50% of household incomes, or have very dysfunctional personalities, or both."
If you want a thread to talk out your own issues, then do that. But why would people be interested in having that discussion with you if this is your thought process? I looked at your other thread, and my general take is for you to work on you. When you're good with yourself, you'll have more clarity on how your hobby may or may not affect the lives of other people.
- Coercion can take many non monetary forms, like the guy who teaches the retarded kid to do blowjobs, or the boss who promises a leg up for sex favors. Having arms length transactions on a mostly level field is not taking advantage of someone’s situation. If you think sex workers are disadvantaged and you choose to take advantage of that, then you are indeed a bad human.
- sex workers who go into the profession with eyes wide open and do well are to be admired. It is one of the tougher businesses and being good at it (i.e. successful) takes skill and talent, like most professions
- it’s hard to respect someone if you think you are better than they are. It comes off as pity. Be respectful and above all, be kind.
We all have our own sense of right and wrong. It’s a slippery slope to ask others to validate something you do but you think is wrong and thus you feel conflicted about
Unless I have cause to believe otherwise, I assume that my partner is a grown adult capable of making her own decisions.
Not a flame war. I think it's a positive term.
Silly me would think a stripper would actually have to, well, have sex itc or otc to qualify.
If simply creating the illusion of sex counts, then does the hotter female staff count?
I just see an obvious (gaping) difference between SIW (sexual illusion worker) and SW.
And sorry for temp derailing ur thread Ilb.
I would say the sex workers are vultures trying to pick at customers. While the customers are predators knowingly taking advantage of their situation.
Generally the nature of time spent by customers with the girls shows greed and control issues. It's like renting a slave in their minds and knowing she'll go along coz she needs the money.
I'm not going to be a Captain Save-A-Hoe.
Icee's comments are so ignorant I have to assume he/she has very limited exposure to actual SW. There is a low-end fringe that can be exploitative but it is not representative.
If she's down and I'm down, then it's on. Yes, if I see signs of coercion, trafficking, or worse, I'm out. But that's it. No judgement, no guilt. I like to have sex with beautiful women who agree to have sex with me.
When I was in my early 20’s a guy (of a similar age) drove past me, and shouted from his red Mercedes to inform me that selling drugs got him that great car. He made a choice to sell drugs, and he was enjoying the benefits. Whether his drug selling would provide a good income as he aged, and whether he would be able to support a family, was yet to be seen.
Strippers are faced with similar choices. They can choose the stripper route, and start making good money at a young age. The danger is, after they’ve stripped for 10 years, they have become accustomed to men giving them things, and that becomes less realistic in other occupations.
I wonder if there is a proverbial tipping point where a stripper must move to a different line of work, or she will end up aging out of her field?
We aren’t vultures. We are providing dancers with money (based on services provided). That’s all this is.
But it is the White women you have got to be on alert with. They aren't really doing it to earn a living. They do it because they have been set up as the family scapegoat. And they lead very destructive lives.
SJG
WHo is the woman in green, and on 5/6/22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6VguusW…
Would you disagree the women generally feel at least some repulsion to the thought of being a lap dancer, particularly if it involves extras? Then, what's your theory as to why some of them do it? I'd assumed that non-silly people would all answer, lots and lots of money. So it surprised me, in the other thread, to see such conviction that $10 a dance is plenty, math be damned.
SJG
When men try to haggle the cost of sex or try to low ball them it just builds resentment in them.
Before or after turning a trick the first person she runs to is her dealer. Most get high to cope with prostitution themselves. That's how a lot of drug habits start.
It's very naive to think a hooker likes you or likes the idea of sex with you.
And of course she won't tell a customer how she really feels about them. It's bad for business.
You're not there when all she wants is a long hot shower and to not be touched by anyone. When she wants to go out in sweats and without makeup hoping men won't look at her. Needing to get high to deal with tricks and the psychological aftermath.
Meanwhile the trick goes home to his wife then brags on tuscl how he paid a hoe.
They have as much justified pride as anyone else. No desperation at all.
SJG
He actually created a screenname to bolster everything he said. Literally, most of this s/n's posts were "Icee is real, yo." And changed his screenname to say good things about himself, like we couldn't see it was also him.
SJG
SJG
SJG
And you're right I don't know what you do. Except that you dated a girl jn a mental asylum. Know how to start a fiat. Want to run a sex cult and believe we need the private club model so we can have whore houses like in tinuana where we can get frmos.
A few years ago you had more sane threads. Liks you admitted you were into gfes. Sounded more normal then came back all weird after the shut downs
Or perhaps it's because you communicate like shit. Or perhaps everyone easily saw through your passive aggressive labeling game to what you were actually implying with your post. 😉
And no they're not buying houses coz they don't qualify for mortgages. But a nice place And a nice car means nothing. Youre pretending like the fantasy that they sell is real.
“you need to read a text book….”
The very first words spoken by my professor in my first graduate level economics class was “economics is the study of scarce resources and how those resources are allocated”
And capitalism is an economic system based on market competition and the pursuit of profit
So it’s not whether mjx01 needs to read a book, he understands the definition. Whether the system is a good one or not is another deeper discussion but let’s not insult others for understanding the true meaning of a pure capitalist economy (which BTW doesn’t exist in practice)
They’re pros, healthy, fit (you have to be look that good nude in your 40s and 50s) drug free, not stigmatized or ashamed in their community, not exploited by anyone, and provide consistent drama-free service for a reasonable price. They’re happy and comfortable with their business model.
Obviously, you can't go around asking people what they make. But sometimes favs will throw out numbers spontaneously. Most times, it seems to me the numbers they give are 2 - 3 times higher than what you'd guess from looking at their lifestyle. But, maybe I just underestimate how much money people can spend on consumable luxuries. Constantly hear dancers complaining about old cars that are limping along.
Am I supposed to feel bad about fucking hot (and consenting) girls half my age? 😂
In Apartment AMPS (AAMPS) most of the women are only here for a few months. They reside in Asia. But they are still very much in charge of their own affairs. I do not recommend getting involved with those women though, not enough committed to the US.
In Store Front AMPS (AMPS) the women are as Americanized as any of us are. They own houses and have kids. The young girls are on a stint coming up from Los Angeles, but that is just because they don't want window shoppers to recognize them and gossip.
You should not assume that you know about people's affairs or that you can talk shit about them.
SJG
School of Rock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLrQ_oDC…
Yiyi
https://tuscl.net/photo.php?id=2156
And you should not assume that you know what other guys legitimately want when they visit a strip club or lecture them about having fun wrong.
SJG
-- Paraphrasing Hamlet.
SJG
Cim all you do is troll. Get a fucking life or post something relevant for once
But aside from that, there's still the stigma of the occupation. People who are bigoted against strippers, or women who otherwise get naughty with lots of people, are dumb and self-satisfied. But most people choose to be with flawed people, because the only realistic alternative is being alone. So dancing cuts down ones SO options. No, we are not (inherently) responsible for that. Just as a vulture is not responsible for the deaths of the animals it sustains itself on.
https://imgflip.com/i/56i82c
The question rests on the assumption that dancers are (within the metaphor...) carrion. Or as ilbbaicnl put it, "Seems like strippers come from families in the bottom 50% of household incomes, or have very dysfunctional personalities, or both."
Which is to say, we're the ones who are constantly picking over the carcasses of broken, disadvantaged women. That's not true. Or, more accurately, that's not predominantly true.
Are there guys out there who intentionally target women in tough emotional or financial situations?... yes, that absolutely happens.
[Let's pretend that all the Rick Dugan jokes have been made, and move on.]
But are there also dancers who target drunk, inexperienced, dysfunctional guys who have more money than sense?... yes, that also absolutely happens.
That said, I believe that both of those behaviors exist at distant, thin ends of a bell curve. The tall middle of the bell curve is regular guys who go to the club looking for a good time, and dancers who will provide that to the customer for pay. And then those two people talk to each other and reach a deal.
And it has to be that way, because if all clubbing involved dancers and customers picking over the remains of one another, then no one would want to be there. All strip clubs would suck. That's not a viable business model.
So, while both scavenging (and predatory) behavior exists in strip clubs on both sides of the customer / dancer equation, it is not and never has been the baseline for all strip club interactions.
But I guess there are some guys who go into strip clubs to... ummm... stroke their guilt/ self-loathing fetish. I try not to kink shame, but that's not my thing.
SJG