Do you buy extras?

I enjoy them. I learned about them in my 20’s, and I’ve been happy to pay for them ever since.

I view extras like leasing a car. You can enjoy the good stuff, and you are done before it becomes annoying. The downside is it can be expensive. The upside is you know what you pay upfront.

Buying a car is like marriage. You bought the car and you don’t have a monthly payment - woo hoo! You’ve now got that car for the rest of your fucking life. When the new models come out, you’ve still go that car and no payments, but those new models look so good! When the suspension gets soft - and the steering is loose - and other cars have firmer airbags - you still have your old faithful ride.

Maybe that’s a bit harsh?

^ I like my car not so sure about your wife.

"Do you buy extras?"

Yes.

"Are ITC extras just a normal part of the PL hobby?"

There's very little that's normal inside of a strip club, even before you get into extras. But they are far less surprising and rare as compared to even 10 or 15 years ago. Whether or not they are readily available depends on the region, the club, and the dancer. I would never walk into a club and assume that ITC extras are available.

"Or do extras only belong in brothels?"

Well, whether or not you think they should, they don't, and at this point they won't. There are several city and even state governments that are seeing proposals to either decriminalize or legalize sex work. And sites like Seeking have essentially Uberized sex work. Perhaps with the exception of the more socially conservative parts of the South and Midwest, there's a growing acceptance of sex work becoming some version of legal. It's not going to happen soon, but it'll happen.

So, that toothpaste is not going back in the tube, so to speak.

If two consenting adults want to go for it in the back, fine with me. I don't think the law should meddle in it.

Personally, I haven't partaken in a while, and don't plan to for a while.* For one, ITC extras lack a lot of things that make sex fun, and I'm getting my share of civvie puss right now. I'm not saving a lot of money vs. what I spent on extras, but I'm enjoying outside experiences more. For another, I feel like I've exhausted the lineup at local extras places, and I'm not going to drive 2+ hours to indulge. Without variety, they lose their appeal--I don't do CFs or ATFs. For a third, extras got boring. Once they stopped feeling subversive, it feels like masturbating with another person. Finally, I tend to buy more extras when my head is messed up, and it's been great lately.

Who knows, I might go back to it someday, but I'm on a break from it and clubbing on the whole irght now.

• Though buying my friend some birthday extras on an upcoming trip most definitely is.

CMI. I sure hope you are right.

I enjoy several different approaches to strip clubs. I enjoy a lap dance factory where the best I can hope for is an LDK. I can enjoy the clubs that have backroom VIPs with doors or heavy curtains where the girl and I are free to negotiate whatever we want to do. So do extras have to be available for me to have a good time at a club ? No. But do I partake if they are available ? Yes, I do.

Who Doesn’t?

Extras by any name are the same, nothing in this capitalist society is ever free.

Everyone pays for them, one way or another. I t is not only ITC we have all these “categories”:

1. We have high end courtesans, escorts, centerfolds, actresses, models, etc that provide PSE/GFE for the sake of pleasure.

2. Concubines/Mistresses/Sugar Babies/Strippers ITC OTC; etc, for the daily health of our bodies.

3. Trophy Wives (with an ironclad prenup) to bear us lawful offspring, and be the faithful guardians of our homes.

4. Realistic Sex Dolls/Gynoids/Fembot, and Internet Porn and Instagram/Onlyfans “Models”, for kicks-and-giggles”

5. Street walkers for after hours crazy stupid drunken “mistakes”

Extras are a normal part of the ITC experience in some clubs in Baltimore, but by no means all clubs.

I will occasionally do ITC extras. But these days, I prefer taking my time on clean hotel bed sheets rather than rushing things on a couch with a spotty cleaning schedule.

@cashman: " firmer airbags" HAHAHAHAH that's pretty funny!

@CMI: "There's very little that's normal inside of a strip club", "Well, whether or not you think they should, they don't, and at this point they won't.", "that toothpaste is not going back in the tube" ...I agree, all very sensible points.

I have stated many places that I don't really go along with the concept of "extras" or of "buying" extras, dances, or anything else.

I just don't look at it that way. You just pick the girl you want and demonstrate generosity and make stuff happen. I would say, let it escalate as quickly as it can.

My experiences go back before extras and dance buying in strip clubs, to AMPs. There you just pick the girl you want, and if you go about it the right way you can get a preliminary makeout session going, and then have full service which is mind blowing for both parties.

In strip clubs in Tijuana, and in the most extreme US clubs, it looks to work pretty much the same way.

Extra's and Buying Dances are gimicks. More than from anywhere else they seem to have come from Deja Vu, when it was taking over San Francisco because the Dot Com Boom pushed real estate prices to high for anyone else to function.

amazon.com

SJG

None for me, thanks. I'm that rare guy (here, anyway) that's happy with the ongoing in the marital bed.

I just go for the fantasy and fondling. I do sometimes imagine a hot, firm stripper in said marital bed.

Funniest thing on TUSCL today.

CJ Kent always talks about how everyone needs to share their wealth but then makes this quote:

“Trophy Wives (with an ironclad prenup)”

Awe CJ doesn’t want to share HIS wealthy but it’s okay for everyone else to.

SJG said "My experiences go back before extras and dance buying in strip clubs, to AMPs. There you just pick the girl you want, and if you go about it the right way you can get a preliminary makeout session going, and then have full service which is mind blowing for both parties."

AMPs are brothels operating under the laughably thin veneer of "massage". You don't need to "go about it the right way" to get full service in an AMP. You just need to walk in the door, have cash, and not have any open wounds.

"In strip clubs in Tijuana, and in the most extreme US clubs, it looks to work pretty much the same way."

That's because the "strip clubs" in TJ are also brothels. If you have a room and cash, then it's more of a challenge to not get laid in a Tijuana strip club. There's no wizard ninja skill behind getting laid in a Zona Norte whorehouse.

Referencing AMPs and Mexican brothels as part of your "out-of-the-box" philosophy towards gaining access to a vagina is like bragging about the 25-pound Bluefish you caught at the supermarket seafood counter.

If extras mean she does more because I offer extra $$, the answer is no.

Ishmael, in AMPs DFKing is not standard. Many girls make a point of refusing it, most of the time. So you have to go about it the right way and let the girl come to like you and feel that she wants to be with you regularly and outside. And you should pick a girl you want this with.

And well yes, if massage parlous and strip clubs are not being subjected to close regulation they will turn into brothels. So you go and select the girl you want. Otherwise best just go instead to Hooters.

Getting access to vagina is not the issue. The issue is finding a girl you like and getting her to open up to you.

SJG

@meat: to clarify, what I mean by "extras" here may include one or more of the following:

• groping ass/tits
• sucking tits
• HJ
• BJ
• FS
• DATY/DATO
• makeout sessions (why the hell not, this one is for SJG)

I guess hot carl and anal too. But in all seriousness, the first 4-5 items on the list above.

@meat: additionally, I would say that often extras do come at the cost of extra $$$, however they may be included when buying a number of dances at the regular rate.

^ I define extras as anything meant to induce an orgasm in one party or the other, for which an "extra" fee is exchanged. That means HJ, BJ, DATY/O, FS, anal.

Groping or sucking tits, FIV/FIA, LDK is high mileage but isn't usually negotiated as a special service.

SJG said "And well yes, if massage parlous and strip clubs are not being subjected to close regulation they will turn into brothels."

No, you're still not getting it. AMPs and TJ strip clubs don't "turn into" brothels. They already are brothels. I mean, Tijuana strip clubs are are actual legal brothels. Citing actual brothels in a deep-cut strategy towards sex isn't actually a deep cut. It's just making brothels unnecessarily complex to fool yourself into believing that you're not having completely transactional sex.

@tetra: that should work for the purposes of this thread

I'm wondering if you started this thread after the disagreement in that one Seattle review. The one where a few of us questioned why the reviewer connected dancer names to specific extra acts. I even tried to explain that it's an unofficial TUSCL no-no to connect dancer names to extras.

I think if you read enough discussion threads and reviews around here you can see that most folks don't have problems with extras, to the contrary we actually like them. We just don't like putting dancers on blast for performing them. Your buddy uncleseawill seems fucking incapable of understanding that, however. Goes in and on saying "that's how Seattle clubs are and everyone here knows it". Shit I bet Detroit, COI, and Miami clubs are more off the hook than Seattle clubs. Yet people in those regions for the most part when writing reviews know not to put the dancer on blast.

^ @CMI laid out a great summary of reasons not to connect girls by name to extras.

Law enforcement is one, but the bigger danger is other mongers thinking they're entitled to such a service, or other girls or managers making her life difficult.

He can phrase it better than I do, but this should be an OFFICIAL rule, such that reviews that do it get taken down.

@TFP: no that Seattle review is not the reason I started this thread. I agree that it is best to not connect dancer names to extras, and follow this principle myself when writing reviews. Unclewill is an institution and a joy to read, but he really does cross the line on this subject. Actually, he crosses the line, stops for a moment to flip it off, and then jogs right the fuck on. He's also not wrong that Seattle is like that and everyone knows it.

You are right that I read plenty of these discussions, and my sense is that 95% of TUSCLers either pay for or don't have a problem with paying for extras. But it does come up from time to time and I thought it would be interesting to get a pointed discussion going on the subject.

So if you google "how do I become a stripper", this link comes up: thrillist.com . And, yay, it says look a tuscl.net. So, that's good, less risk a newb dancer will be shocked by PL requests.

Some non-extras strippers hate on extras strippers. Some air dancers hate on lap dancers. Some wives and girlfriends hate on all strippers. Best to just give up on making the haters happy. Dancers deserve honesty about what management really permits in a club, and to not be badgered when they say they don't do something. If brothels are ever legalized, then it would name sense to say brothels shouldn't call themselves strip clubs.

TUSCL members with access to reviews include club managers and other dancers, who can use that information against a dancer. It's also not impossible for local reporters to access these reviews to find incriminating quotes for their expose piece. And, yes, it's also possible for the cops to get at these reviews, but cops usually know what's going on in a club without reading reviews.

There has also been cases where a customer approached a dancer about extras, got turned down, and then that jackass customer confronted the dancer with a TUSCL review where the reviewer named her as performing that service. And that's not great for the dancer, because she gets to pick and choose who gets to do what in VIP.

We've seen pissed-off dancers who showed up on TUSCL because of this. But at least one time it was a reviewer who rage posted here because his CF dancer recognized him from his own review that another TUSCLer showed to her. As a result his "current favorite" became a "former favorite". As far as I'm concerned, that's a function of karma. But the point remains that connecting dancers by name to extras is not great for either the club or the dancer ultimately.

Once a reviewer identifies that extras are in the building, just walk through the door and do a bit of the work yourself.

Now so wishing I had not googled hot carl.

@IBL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA don't look up plate job either.

drew carey, I would hate to go into a strip club where groping tits is considered an "extra". That might be a club that I wouldn't go into again.

Of course not. That would be illegal!

Nope I don't pay hookers for sex.

^^ yes we know you can’t afford it.

I would totally buy them if I didn't live in Ohio.

Discussion Posts in the Political Discourse Forum, mainly quotations, as well as comments in the website are used by me as a means of inspiration and to invoke philosophical thoughts from the reader.

Pragmatically speaking, quotations can also be used as language games (in the Wittgensteinian sense of the term) to manipulate social order and the structure of society

“Like everything metaphysical the harmony between thought and reality is to be found in the grammar of the language.”

~ Ludwig Wittgenstein ~ Austrian-British philosopher ~ Born: April 26, 1889, Vienna, Austria ~ Died: April 29, 1951, Cambridge, United Kingdom

Ludwig said it all...

Also remember that:

“everything on this site should be considered a work of fiction"

:D

It definitely depends on the club, the girl, and my mood that day. I much prefer OTC vs ITC. The last girl I did ITC stuff with just wouldn't do anything OTC though.

So my answer is yes. I usually feel out the girl to see if she's into extras. If she's not, no big deal. If she is and I like her enough, I might go further.

Drew, I think this thread is worthwhile and you started it acknowledging that there is a difference of opinions. I think though where the real difference lies still is not being surfaced though.

Ishmael tried to distinguish TJ clubs and AMPs as being overtly brothels, as opposed to US clubs.

Well, I have seen AMPs where they do HJ only and the girls aren't used to the idea of FS. Some are even wearing panty hose.

But it changes. Other girls come in, like from San Francisco, where they are used to doing as many FS sessions as they can around the lunch hour. Or guys just smooth talk them and they give it up.

And then I have seen strip clubs where things were not going that far, but then it changes. One club in San Mateo had been constrained, but then the date of its slated closure approached. Girls were now showing pussy on stage and DFKing at stage side, in order to get guys into the back room.

And then at one of our underground clubs, girls were doing front room FS. Those who did not want to do that eventually left.

The reason I don't go along with "Extras" is that I just don't look at it that way, narrowly defined service for a fee, and money "Buying" something.

The money is just a show of respect, that is how the girl pays her bills, and she is sitting around there ready for you, so she needs it.

And then the issue is not ejaculation, it is getting under the girl's skin, getting her to open up to you. And FS after DFKing and maybe some DATYing and BJing, really gets to her.

So you pick the girl you want and show generosity and charm and make something happen.

Is that then a brothel? Well yes. Anytime there is not strict supervision it will start to go that way.

But Buying Dances, Buying Extras, that is a gimmick, it lets girls maintain total control of the encounter and function via dissociation.

SJG

Joni Mitchell- Amelia live 1983 youtube.com

Do I buy extras? Every dancer has their own menu. If I like the dancer, the menu, and the price, you betcha.

Are ITC extras just a normal part of the PL hobby? Depends on the location. If I get extras in Nashville, I'm thrilled. If I don't get extras in the Miami area, I'm shocked and disappointed.

Do you really look at it though as you're "buying" something, and that your girls sells these kinds of services? And isn't it mostly ejaculation services. Where as the best way to get under the girl's skin I would say would be to approach her and engage with her a bit differently.

Sure there is to be money, and it still goes to ejaculation, but it is also very different.

DFKing and FS get a girl much more than doing BJ or HJ till completion.

SJG

Joni Mitchell youtube.com

^^^ Stop telling people that they're having fun wrong.

When you talk about "fun" you are talking about escapism. Its the same thing people turn to alcohol and marijuana for. They seek it in the endorphin rush that comes with ejaculation.

People turn to that when they have already given up. I get fun in accomplishing things, like when I helped to put the Pentecostal Daughter Molester into San Quentin, and when I am able to reach out and get under the skin of a young woman I feel drawn to.

SJG

Joni Mitchell youtube.com

Piperdown tuscl.net

When I talk about fun, I'm talking about things that are fun for me.

Stop telling people what 'fun' means to them.

And stop telling people that they're having fun wrong.

You need that drug, alcohol and the endorphin rush in one pill.

SJG

SJG , explain how your involvement in getting the Pentecostal minister who molested his daughter put into San Quentin?

Keep in mind you’ve chronicled e writhing else over the years of your posting, except the details of your involvement. SoMehow Foia is just a 4 letter word to you behind that firewall you hide behind.

I must maintain my privacy fire wall, but I will just say that I was very involved in his case and it going to a guilty verdict.

SJG

Sjg is right about most things.

I smoke weed and drink and fun is a euphemism for escapism. Thats the whole purpose of altering your mind.

He's also right about cold approaching women for p4p. I did an experiment. I asked 3 women to fuck for $200. 2 were down and one yelled at me.

@icey: "I asked 3 women to fuck for $200. 2 were down and one yelled at me." ...that's actually pretty funny. What was the context? At a club? Bar? Shopping mall?

The most hilarious thing about it is that it never happened.

I guess Icey just did an experiment.

But the simple fact is that there is no reason to talk to women that way.

Fauci tuscl.net

SJG

Joni Mitchell youtube.com

@SJG:

"Do you really look at it though as you're 'buying' something, and that your girls sells these kinds of services?"

Yes. They are in sales, and I am their customer. Just like my mechanic, tax guy, the waiter, a massesse, etc. They're human beings and deserve respect, but that doesn't mean they are at work for any reason other than to get paid.

"And isn't it mostly ejaculation services."

Yes. I like to ejaculate. I particularly like to do it with a hot young woman in my lap, preferably mostly naked.

"Where as the best way to get under the girl's skin..."

I don't want to get under the girl's skin, I want to pay her a fair price for a quality service.

"DFKing and FS get a girl much more than doing BJ or HJ till completion."

You may laugh, but I used to DFK strippers often. It's not that uncommon if you're clean and polite and reasonable, and things are going well in the LDA. I don't do this any more because I kept getting cold sores. Also, some of the girls in my area are doing a lot more with their mouths than kissing, and I want to skip the exposure. I also avoid FS these days because STDs are easily transferred regardless of what you wrap yourself with. For example many cases of HPV and HSV are transferred at the base of the penis, right where the condom doesn't cover. Not that it's hard to get FS from a dancer in Seattle, at the right club. FS is also a bit more involved, and I'm less comfortable with it in a stripper scenario. I also don't like walking around marinating in whatever she and I worked up, I'd rather get a shower after sex. Covered HJ / BJ hit the mark for me, though I know I am somewhat alone in this preference.

SC's are all about fantasies, and for you the fantasy seems to include the idea that you're picking up dancers on your charm and just happen to be paying them because you respect them. Fair enough, the fantasy for me is that she's as excited about grinding on my paunchy frame as I am about her grinding on my paunchy frame.

Different strokes...

Drew, thank you for speaking your mind and for starting this thread.

I am saying that if you deal with the girl, as one selling a commodity, that is a loosing game. No reason you should ever let yourself be forced into that position.

Sorry, but if you think the girls are contaminated, then best to stay away from them.

The fantasy is getting the girl you have selected, dressed and painted up exactly as you first spotted her, and that pretty much means right then and there.

SJG

"I am saying that if you deal with the girl, as one selling a commodity, that is a loosing game."

They're called sex workers for a reason. But sex is an inherently emotional thing. By pretending to be interested in you, doing what you like, they get deeper into your wallet.

Drew. At Target.

Yes, but their play acting only can go so far.

SJG

^ Bless your heart if you really believe that.

Tetradon. It's part of the game. They want repeat customers. It's good service. Gfe s sell.

Drew. I made small talk and joked and when they responded positively to compliments I made them the offer. I was surprised. I won't go through with it though. Thentjied one swore at me so I didn't ask more.

@SJG: you're welcome. Thanks to you as well for the discussion.

I don't see what I'm losing in the commodity scenario. I get what I want, she gets what she wants. I don't want more than this. If I did, wouldn't I seek out a SB or girlfriend?

WRT contamination, in my view it's a good principle to always act as if sex partners have an STI unless you are exclusive and tested. This is true whether you're dealing with a girlfriend, swinger, hookup, pickup, polycule member, or sex worker, but especially with sex workers considering the number of partners they have. I don't believe that most people would knowingly infect another person with an STI, but not everyone knows when they have been infected. And I must assume that when someone who relies on income from FS sex work finds they have an STI, there must be the temptation to continue on as if nothing happened.

I don't look down on anyone with an STI, I just take precautions to avoid contracting/spreading them.

@icey: "Drew. I made small talk and joked and when they responded positively to compliments I made them the offer. I was surprised. I won't go through with it though..."

I was going to ask. That is amazing. Target! HAHHA I guess it makes sense in a way, but I wouldn't have thought it.

@Icey, exactly. I've bought my share of extras (though gotten away from it, per above), but never expected they developed feelings for me any more than my mechanic or accountant did.

There's a reason "I think she really likes me" is a pop culture trope. My last time in Vegas (10-11 years ago) my buddy's (30th birthday + bachelor party), our group went to (I think) Crazy Horse III. I bought like 2 dances, but the best man disappeared for an hour. $600 later he comes back with this shit-eating grin on his face going "dude, I think she really likes me." For the next 3 days, he kept saying "I want to go back and see Tatiana." He was even willing to risk his flight out of McCarron for the remote chance that she'd be there that afternoon.

Rock on, Tatiana, whatever the fuck you did back there. But there's a reason "regulars in love" happen.

Drew. I flirted with them and asked after talking a while and getting their ig accounts. It wasn't like hey I'll give you $200 if you fuck me. But I think p4p is getting normalized to a degree . The idea of not fucking for free. I can't though. My ego and the conquest are important to me.

Tetradon it's possible to get dancers and for them to like you. But not as a customer. Once you pay to fuck there's no incentive for her. Why would she give up the money. When they do go for customers it's for security coz they want to quit arenolder and not making much...

But the way I solicited them it didn't feel like prostitution. Probably coz they weren't hookers and were eager. I don't know. But the demographic was a young Hawaiian girl and one Persian. A middle aged white milf rejected me.

I'm kind of shocked at Drew trying to have a reasonable conversation with SJG. Drew you've been here since 2018 so surely you've gotta be familiar with how SJG operates, right?

You've explained perfectly why you have no problem with the strip club setup and how it works for you. You get what you want and the dancer gets what she wants. However SJG will now try to convince you that you don't want that. Then he'll explain at length all this stuff that you should be doing, which is what HE wants to do in the club. Which is why he's always being told to "stop telling people they're having fun wrong". But he'll never stop.

Unfortunately the San Jose public library is now closed so his next response won't be until they open tomorrow at noon. But then he'll continue his brigade of how you're having fun wrong. Should be entertaining.

@tfp: I must admit that I’m enjoying the overall reasonable and civil tone of this thread.

Remember that old joke:

“Man to woman: Would you sleep with me for one million dollars?

Woman: Sure.

Man: How about for ten dollars?

Woman: What do you think I am?

Man: We’ve already established what you are. All we’re doing is bargaining about price.”

YES; men all pay for sex one way or another.

At least some women (escorts, sugar babies, mistresses, kept woman, strippers ITC/OTC, adult industry workers, etc etc etc ) are honest about the price.

“Research into the sexual relationships of married couples and studies of the legal sex industry suggest that the monetary value of the average married couple’s sex life is between $13,260 and $100,000 per year.”

What is your sex life worth to you?

^you are one stupid fucking clown. Where's the citation for the research asshole.

@ski: I think he got it here injurytriallawyer.com

It’s pretty subjective, but I think the idea was:

The average married couple has sex 51 times per year One-third of married couples have sex 2-3 times per week, or 130 times per year The average value of one hour of sexual intercourse ranges from $260 to $350, about $300 on average.

There’s citations for each point in the article.

I tend to think of my sex life as priceless, but I’m definitely not paying $13k or $100k for sex in a year!

I get da extra sour cremebfor my sugar baby on da burrito Supreme at da taco bell. I treat her rite

@drew, there it went!

The idea that we all pay for sex is stupid. Spending money on a woman and spending it for a woman are 2 very different things. In one you pay for dates that are bond creating experiences. In the other you pay a stranger to be your cum dumpster and human masturbation sleeve.

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

You wrote and I quote:

“In one you pay for dates that are bond creating experiences. In the other you pay...”

Thank you for saying in other words:

YES; men all pay for sex one way or another.

:D

You're paying for a meal for a movie for admission some place drinks whatever. You're not paying for aex nor do any of those entitle you to sex.

If you're viewing everything in life as just a financial transaction to make yourself feel better about paying for sex You're delusional

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

You wrote and I quote:

“You're paying for...”

Thank you, again, for saying, in other words, (without realizing/admitting?)

YES; men all pay for sex one way or another.

:D

“Like everything metaphysical the harmony between thought and reality is to be found in the grammar of the language.”

~ Ludwig Wittgenstein ~ Austrian-British philosopher ~ Born: April 26, 1889, Vienna, Austria ~ Died: April 29, 1951, Cambridge, United Kingdom

Ludwig said it all...

Incel "men", welfare cases, weak pussy progressive men and every other impotent loser male believes that marriage is paying for sex. The mere belief in that marks you as failed losers. How pathetic.

@Iceefag Are you paying for her meal and her admission to the movies or are you just paying for your own ?

Icee pays in more ways than he will let you believe. The reality is he pisses his time and future away tricking out his bitch ass to stripper hoes!

Taking a girl on a date isn't the same nor the equivalent of paying a hooker

In our capitalist society/culture women “sell/exchange” access/time to their “sexuality” for indirect money/payment — dinner, drinks, movies, concerts, gifts, flowers clothes, a wedding ring — and we all know all these things represent money in the capitalist society.

"Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man."

-Walter E. Williams, African-American economist

Colonialism and slavery represented the state of primitive accumulation...so much for capitalism being different from looting and plunder. Even today...its just exploitation.

Anyways. You're pretending like dating is just a gfe.

@Icey, ignoring the capitalism debate, the problem with buying extras and mongering in general is that it can lead one to think of relationships as purely transactional interactions. I know there have been points in life where I felt like I fell down that rabbit hole.

I would hope that certain interactions, like with one's friends and family, one isn't keeping a close balance sheet. Or that one sees their significant other as something more than a set of holes.

Drew, as I am reading you it seems like your preferences are based on either or both of these premises:

1. Women are to be divided into two categories, as they serve different purposes. (And this has always been the primary mode for establishing patriarchy.)

2. Buying dances in a strip club is not marital infidelity, and you like it because your money is paying the women to go away.

To the others who have said that I or others are being played by the women. People can always postulate this, and it is hard to disprove. But this does not make it so. If you aren't concerned about marital infidelity because you are not cheating on a spouse or an SO, and if you don't divide women into two categories, then it is very easy to get under their skin, and this shows.

You don't need any extraordinary means to get to women. If you give them the chance, most of the time they will try to get their hooks into you.

Now as far as paying women for services, well most experienced womanizers do keep mistresses. This is well understood in Europe and Latin America. And it seems to be so in Asia and Africa. I think the only place where this is not understood is in the United States.

If you want to know more about this:

Roger Vadim's And God Created Woman, Starring Brigitte Bardot (1956) (and this has English subtitles, but you don't need to read the dialog to understand what this is about ) youtube.com

The old big shot wants her to be his mistress. But he is still waiting for some verbal agreement from her. He fails to act in situations where he just could have made it go that way, because he needs that verbal agreement from her to his terms. If he made it happen with her without this agreement, then it would come to be on her terms, and this is what he does not want. So he is not the really the great womanizer which he is taken to be.

Now why strip clubs? Well at a civvie night club you likely will be able to move on a girl you have just met. But you would have to keep your makeout session within the PG-13 envelop. But otherwise, no one is going to object. To go further though you will have to get her out of there.

At a strip club the laws about sex and lewd conduct in public places is the same, but generally people don't care. And then the back room is available at the most extreme US clubs.

That the stripper is there all dolled up and waiting for you, indicates that she will need money. Otherwise she would not be able to be there like that. She would have to be elsewhere, doing something else which will pay her bills. But if you engage with her with generosity and completely on the level, most of the time she will go completely civvie with you.

And this does not necessarily mean that she is not getting money. In the vast majority of cases wives are getting money, and GF's of rich guys are getting money. About the only ones who are not getting money are adolescents who are still being supported by their parents.

Most women are getting money or social advantage from the men they fuck. Refusing this will not improve your standing with them. They will assume that you are cheap, or that you don't respect them, or that you don't have it.

SJG

Joni Mitchell, Amelia youtube.com

@Tetradon

Quoted; and I quote:

"Prior to capitalism, the way people amassed great wealth was by looting, plundering and enslaving their fellow man. Capitalism made it possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man."

-Walter E. Williams, African-American economist

LOL “Capitalism made it possible to become wealthy by serving your fellow man." in some fairy tales of course...

Everyone knows that the wealthy didn’t earn their wealth by working hard and being honest, the numbers don’t add up and math doesn’t lie.

Wealth disparity has even increased because the "myth" of meritocracy has been so effectively promoted and defended by the political and private elite through the media, education, corporate culture, and elsewhere.

The undeniable reality is that wealth disparity and limited class mobility remain widespread, in the Capitalist USA and around the world regardless of individual work ethic.

““It is the sufferings of the many which pay for the luxuries of the few...”

~ Greta Tintin Eleonora Ernman Thunberg ~ Born: 3rd January 2003 , Sweden ~ Occupation: Student, environmental activist

^ Capitalism has reduced extreme poverty more than any ideology in history.

Marxism has worked in...um...shit...

Supossedly prostitution is the oldest profession in the world for a reason.

As a comedian once joked w.r.t. the differences b/w women and men:

“A woman looks for the one guy to satisfy all her needs – a man looks for all women that will satisfy his one need”

It’s “intellectually dishonest”, to put it mildly, to expect a healthy male to not wanna fuck an attractive woman that is almost completely nude and dressed to provocate, and on top of that there being mutual touching and simulated sex via lap-daces – it’s “intellectually dishonest” to expect a guy to not get turned on when that is what the dancer is trying to do.

As has been posted in the past; the U.S. is farther behind w.r.t. sex, or more precisely casual sex, than many other countries – in many other countries there isn’t much of a stigma w.r.t. casual-sex or even P4P b/w consenting-adults.

If you think about-it, U.S. SCs are kind of a racket – PLs often pay hundreds for not much more than a tease and then they are often bashed-over-the-head if they wanna fuck an attractive girl that is trying to turn him on. Guys I’ve known over the years that have mongered overseas look at U.S. SCs as a waste of time & $$$ and that you are basically getting jacked by paying to get turned-on and then leave blue-balled.

Many non-extras dancers know, or likely feel, that if P4P/extras became main-stream that they’d lose w/e power they have in the clubs and would likely be put out of business and why so many hate-on PLs that want extras and girls that provide extras.

Capitalism has created extreme poverty while at the same time creating huge surpluses of goods and services because of advanced industrial and information technology.

Better to have life set up so you can avail yourself of all the nice pussy being offered.

But buying dances is a chump's game, and LDKing is pathetic.

SJG

Amelia youtube.com

Wealth disparity by any name Capitalism, Socialism, Communism, or any economic and political system is the undeniable reality in today’s world.

““It is the sufferings of the many which pay for the luxuries of the few...”

~ Greta Tintin Eleonora Ernman Thunberg ~ Born: 3rd January 2003 , Sweden ~ Occupation: Student, environmental activist

^ And wealth disparity is not an inherently bad thing.

Tetradon. When you get used to p4p. It's dehumanizing. Both for the hoe and trick. Eventually it starts defining oneself and ones value.

^ That's my point. Even if I like the thrill, I indulged it enough that I sensed it was shaping other interactions with outside women. And that's not somewhere I wanted to go.

Advanced industrial and information technology have created not just wealth disparity, it has shut a large portion of the population out entirely, giving them nothing.

This is because of Capitalism, it is a system based on exploitation and making the rich rich at the expense of others. So it is a type of exploitation and slavery.

It is based on the premise that industrial advances should benefit only a few, while others are given things like Religion and Motivationalism to placate them and keep them passive.

SJG

OMS Martinism youtube.com

@sjg:

"1. Women are to be divided into two categories, as they serve different purposes."

You can always divide people into arbitrary categories, but I don't see women this way.

"2. Buying dances in a strip club is not marital infidelity, and you like it because your money is paying the women to go away."

True and true, but there are other reasons: access to women way out of my class on an age/looks basis, on-demand services, a licentious environment, variety, less chance of FS than in an escort scenario, etc.

To keep things honest: while I agree that getting dances is not marital infidelity, I'm sure that extras are. I buy extras and don't tell Mrs. C about it. I'm comfortable with my sins.

^ Well I think that explains it, you don't really want to know the women you encounter in strip clubs. They can tell this right off, and so you are paying them to go away. And then Buying Dances and Extras arise as the result of this.

Like I said, I don't go along with either concept.

SJG

OMS Martinism youtube.com

^ yeah that sounds right. Though I am paying them for a few more things BEFORE they go away.... =)

Yes, but if you didn't want them to go away you could get whatever you wanted regularly.

:) :) :)

Help with marital problems can be found with Marriage Counselors and Divorce Lawyers. You can find them in the Yellow Pages, but you won't find that many dancing at a strip clubs.

Some married couples opt for Swingers Clubs. And most actually never have sex with anyone but the person they came with. They just go to watch and be watched. It might not be until many years that they opt for 3 somes and 4 somes.

SJG

So basically SJG you think that any guy that doesn't want to date the dancers has no place in a club?

And I think your theory of any woman can be gotten by any man is kind of unrealistic. Like a 65 year old man goes into the club and wishes to date a 24 year old dancer. Not gonna even talk about differences in personality, views, or anything like that yet. Do you really think it's feasible for a 65 year old man to go into a club and attempt to date a 24 year old?

From reading your posts about clubs you seem to berate any guy that goes into the club and isn't looking for a long term thing with a dancer. I know that's what YOU'RE looking for, but so you honestly believe that is the only use for a strip club?

@TFP, that's a constant among the most hated people on this board.

Other than a few limp-dicked trolls, the most hated are the ones who tell people there's a "right" way and a "wrong" way to have fun. (As long as you're not doing something that creates a severe danger for other mongers or dancers.)

"has no place in a club"

Never said that or anything like that. Don't believe me, go through my posts and find it.

Women who are not seriously attached can be gotten to most of the time.

I don't divide women into different categories, but this thread started with an open and honest question about the concept of Extras.

And Tetradon, you are replying to your own pigheadedness, not to anything else.

SJG

OSM Martinism youtube.com

"And Tetradon, you are replying to your own pigheadedness, not to anything else."

I'm sure that made sense in your head.

@SJG ok you said to Drew earlier that he doesn't wish to know the women in strip clubs. And because of that, buying dances and buying extras arise. And you don't go along with any of those concepts.

That leads me to believe that you think only men who wish to get to know all the dancers on some personal level belong in the strip club. Since you don't go along with the concept of just buying dances or extras. Is that correct?

Never said who does or doesn't belong in strip clubs. And in extensive threads with Mr. LDK82, I did say that all parties are over 18yo, so people can decide what they will and won't do.

I do though think it reflects badly on a man's character when he cheats on his wife. (Now I also did this, but I was not bragging about on a message board, and I never pretended that it was to be a sustained arrangement.) And I do think he is a kind of a chump to get his wallet hoovered out in strip clubs by women he doesn't want to be bedding regularly.

But this does not tell him not to be in strip clubs, it is a general feeling about his character and personal integrity.

SJG

@SJG I wasn't talking about LDK82 in particular. I'm just speaking about men who go into the club that don't have the intention of trying to get the dancers outside the club. You said in regards to LDK82 that you think he is kind of a chump to get his wallet hoovered out by women he doesn't want to be bedding regularly. Well you probably just described 90% of the men on this forum, not just LDK82. It is what it is, I bet 80% of men on this forum also have similar views regarding you. But whatever.

So what you're saying is that you think all men who go into strip clubs that don't have intentions on seeing the dancers regularly outside are chumps?

I got my haircut today. While sitting in the chair I noticed the stylist was kind of cute in a 40-year-old slightly chubby MILF way. I started thinking, you know if I just started handing her cash while flirting, I might be able to initiate a salon chair make out session. This could lead to her coming home with me and providing me with haircuts anytime I wanted them. I mean with the current relationship, I'm just using her for exfoliation services. Then I realize what a colossally stupid idea this was. I mean I just wanted a fucking haircut, not a girlfriend.

Strip clubs are well oiled fine tuned machines for separating marks from their money. They take advantage of some basic male character weaknesses.

Strip clubs are something to visit and learn from, but not to patronize regularly. No reason to.

And Justin, I had a wonderful feel up session with a MILF cutting my hair. I gave her a nice tip. But I also knew her as a FS massage girl who worked in the next building.

SJG

In much the same way that a big percentage of sugar babies on Seeking go through a lot of mental gymnastics to convince themselves that they aren't sex workers, there are a fair number of guys who jump through a lot of mental hoops to convince themselves that their highly transactional sex isn't highly transactional sex.

I would cite both Icee and SJG as examples, but one is straight-up delusional and the other tells continuous lies to stir shit. So, while neither are a real-life example of this sort of soft-lens thinking, the fiction that they post here every single day is right in line with this sort of delusional belief.

I still like and buy extras.

I know that's hard to believe considering the arguments put forth by aspirational sex cult leader who can't get an internet connection outside of library hours (and also doesn't have a sex cult...). I really do like the dancers I see ITC and OTC, but I don't want to be "under their skin" or emotionally connected to them outside of that friendly-but-transactional sexy fun time. I have those emotional connections with other people and other women outside of my club activities. So, I don't need or want more from dancers, and I suspect that's mutual.

And I'm fine with that.

But, hey, I know that will not remotely affect the arguments of a guy who earned and re-earned the nickname "Sleepytime Rapist" years ago, or a guy who tells continuous lies to stir shit.

So ... proceed as you have been.

"Strip clubs are something to visit and learn from, but not to patronize regularly. No reason to"

You realize that's an OPINION, right?

SJG said "And Justin, I had a wonderful feel up session with a MILF cutting my hair. I gave her a nice tip. But I also knew her as a FS massage girl who worked in the next building."

And somehow I'm not remotely surprised that SJG gets his hair cut at an AMP.

@TFP, that's exactly what I meant. More than anyone else here, SJG tells people they're idiots if they don't club just like him.

Despite his stories about pushing a girl's boundaries and FRMOS and building a "genuine" emotional connection come off creepy and rapey. Despite the fact that this hobby takes serious cash, and he can't even afford an internet connection past 5-5:30 Pacific time. Despite the fact that he's building a sex cult that is so super secret that in 8 years he hasn't attracted one follower on a board of horndogs.

Yet somehow he thinks he's cracked the strip club code that no PL here has.

Whatevs, man.

Nothing delusional at all. Most unattached women can be gotten to if you are just straight and open with them.

TFP, it is a long tested opinion.

Dancer told me long ago, "Don't use strip clubs for sexual gratification, that is perverted." And she was coming from the Extras and LDKing shops.

I interpret that as meaning, don't use them for regular sexual gratification. You can use them to imbibe the openness and the high heels and makeup aesthetic. But then you find ways to recreate this in your personal outside life.

And then there are some who want to be waking up with strippers in morning. So you find such at the club.

But you don't just go to the strip club to use women as flesh lights or fembots, or to get your wallet sucked dry regularly.

You show some character and you stand up for what you believe in.

If you have a serious problem you need either a marriage counselor or a divorce lawyer. I have used both.

Then there are also swingers clubs.

I am now working to build a secret society sex cult. For our members it will be even better than a strip club.

SJG

^^^ Stop telling people that they're having fun wrong.

@SJG: "But you don't just go to the strip club to use women as flesh lights or fembots, or to get your wallet sucked dry regularly. "

Why not? If that's what you like, and both parties are consenting, what's the harm? FWIW fembots shoot bullets out of the tits, I don't think they do SW. But I get the point. Maybe this is just your personal ethic, and I'm misreading that you think others should subscribe to it?

And if you're in the mood to see SJG creepily obsess over a dancer's outfit, then go here:

tuscl.net

or here:

tuscl.net

And if you want to see how creepy Ishmael is, read anything he posts.

Drew, Why not?

Well look, none of us are ever more than our personal integrity. And the relations between a man and a woman can develop very far, beyond just "extras", meaning ejaculation services.

Strip clubs, especially the Deja Vu clip joints, are a racket.

SJG

@sjg: I think you are suggesting that developing m/f relations "very far" shows integrity, and that pursing "ejaculation services" shows a lack of integrity? Is that correct?

I think cheating on an SO or spouse creates an integrity problem.

Pursing continuing m/f relations shows appreciation for that depth. None of us should be denied that.

SJG

^ OK, so is this about cheating, or about depth of relationship? Or maybe you're suggesting that one is an extension of another?

So let's assume then that it's a single guy going to the club. Are you then saying a single guy looking for just dances in the club shows low integrity, and a guy looking to persue a relationship with a dancer in the club shows high integrity?

A single guy going into a strip club is not cheating on anyone.

If he just wants to buy dances, why doesn't he go find some girl he would like to become more involved with? Either at a strip club, or somewhere else.

I say this advisedly, and I have done it, buying dances is a chump's game.

If one is doing it, for some reason and in some manner they have been thwarted in getting deeper intimacy. They are a mark. They are ripe for Deja Vu to make money off of.

SJG

TJ Street tuscl.net tuscl.net

SJG said "If he just wants to buy dances, why doesn't he go find some girl he would like to become more involved with? Either at a strip club, or somewhere else."

Potentially because he doesn't want that and that's his choice. He just wants a fun night. At a later time, he can choose to form a deeper relationship, if that's what he wants (or not). No one is being denied anything or being thwarted of anything. They are making decisions about what they want and what they enjoy, which does not have to be what you want. And certainly not what you want them to want.

And that's all you ever post here that isn't about Gnosticism, transistor radios, and lichen colonies ... it's you continuously telling people that they should only want what you want.

Stop telling people that they're having fun wrong.

@CMI: I think that's part of the story.

SJG's point (I'm happy to be corrected here SJG) is that fundamentally, choosing a transactional interaction with a woman is unethical, more so if extras are involved, and still more so if cheating is involved. This ethic is in turn what makes transactional a wrong choice, and is what informs his approach with dancers. I suspect this is what drives his regular exhortations to FRMOS etc.

I think his perspective is a rare one here on TUSCL. The most casual observer would quickly note that the majority of PL/dancer interactions are highly transactional, whether they involve extras and infidelity, or not. Exceptions certainly exist, but they are just that.

To a certain extent, the point of this thread was to have a substantive discussion between the pro/anti extra members, and perhaps gain some insight into what makes a few us so anti extra. In SJG's case, I believe it is: buying dances is unethical, extras and infidelity make it more unethical.

SJG? Did I get it right?

You won't know until tomorrow when the library opens again.

^hahah you're right!

For me, I turn them down when brought up with a specific price. Feels too much like a business transaction (even though ultimately it is). If the girl and I just happen to vibe/connect and one dance leads to other stuff, then that’s the conquest for me. Even though I don’t think I’m God’s gift to women, I am very confident with them and know I can go into any environment and attract some genuinely. Strippers are women too; meaning that they often do find certain men that come to the club attractive and would find them attractive even if they met in a different setting. I normally don’t do the private rooms unless I’m just extremely aroused by a chick or just those times when it’s been awhile since I’ve gotten laid.

The best experience is when I just take a girl I vibe with to the lap dance area and things just escalate from there…right there in the LDA. No pre-arranged prices or agreements.

I don't have a problem with p4p per se.

It just annoys the hell out of me when men on here pretend it's not prostitution. Calling prostitution extras. Calling hookers working clubs dancers. Escorting is otc. Wome pretending like they're her only trick. Others pretending a gfe is real. Acting like hookers really like them.

If a man pays hookers just admit it. Stop using euphemisms to make yourself feel better.

Some things I read on here disgust me. The way Rick brags about taking advantage of desperate girls. When shadow cat bragged about a hooker being younger than his granddaughter. That stuck with me. It's sick. Muddys misogyny and penchant for sex tourism. Liwet asking how easy it is to rape mexican hookers. Darkblues stalking. The racists who fuck black hookers coz they claim they're cheaper. Pretending to be great family men while they go off fucking hookers. Those types of things are repulsive to me.

Then a hooker I know. Hiv positive and travels to Detroit Houston vegas Miami to hoe.

Plus I know hoes and the toll it takes on them.

Lmao @ ceoaticeysangelsllc. This is why I kind of censor some of the things I say on here. Because people tend to judge you . Everyone has their thing. I thought about coming out to shadowcat 80th birthday but I had to work and it would give up some of my anonymity. Do I think it’s weird if shadowcat likes girls younger than his granddaughters. I’m not sure. I wonder could I ever sleep with a girl that’s younger than my kids. Would I be able to compartmentalize like that? Not sure. I will see once I turn 80. I find everyone on here entertaining and I love hearing everyone mongering stories.

In regards to the euphemism of GFE, tricking off, prostitution. It’s all the same. I personally don’t use a word to make me feel better. Hell, I personally think it’s better to proposition ANY girl for sex not just working girls if sex is all you want. You might go out with a chick/woman/girl , find out on the first date that anything long term is not possible but still have the desire to have sex with her. A woman knows right off the bat if she gonna give you the puss. So its more economical, financially and time wise, to just do p4p.

Sex is just like food and air. You need it. So how can I pass judgement on how you get it. As long as the girl is legal, consenting it’s all good in my eyes.

Carry on

One more thing I Gate. When men talk about the women they fuck with disdain. It reflects disdain with oneself.

Sex is more than just having a warm body to cum in. It can be very superficial and shallow and that's okay.

Iceefag You are the only person here that regularly talks about women with disdain, every day a new attack on everyone, your language alone tells us what a low life scum you are, there is no one here that thinks being a pimp and a drug dealer, as well as a petty thief and a shoplifter, is something to be admired. It's long past your expiration date, you bigoted, stupid cock sucker go away.

You said I was a woman upset that her man likes stripper hoes Make your mind up

Iceefag Are you on meth ?

“It’s “intellectually dishonest”, to put it mildly, to expect a healthy male to not wanna fuck an attractive (to him) woman.”

~ Papi_Chulo

And if the woman is “selling/advertising/offering” the opportunity/possibility of fulfillment of his wanting/desiring to fuck, it is “intellectually dishonest” to expect a healthy male to not think about the possibility of buying/purchasing/acquiring what he wants/needs...

===> "Are ITC extras just a normal part of the PL hobby? Or do extras only belong in brothels? Icey and Rick, I think I know your opinions on this subject, but where do other tusclers stand on this?"

I'm not sure what you think you know about my opinion, but it's actually somewhat nuanced.

For starters there are many guys on this board who would be willing to pull their pants down around their ankles far faster than I would for ITC extras. It's very much something I prefer to do OTC and I actually generally don't patronize the seedier "brothel clubs."

But with that said, I think that grown ass women and men should be free to decide what makes sense for them in each situation. Indeed this need for some people to apply labels because they are too stupid or emotionally stunted to understand nuance always makes me scratch my head. Until I have to walk a mile in dancer's stilettoes I'm not going to criticize how she feeds herself and her dependents.

"... If you think about-it, U.S. SCs are kind of a racket – PLs often pay hundreds for not much more than a tease and then they are often bashed-over-the-head if they wanna fuck an attractive girl that is trying to turn him on. Guys I’ve known over the years that have mongered overseas look at U.S. SCs as a waste of time & $$$ and that you are basically getting jacked by paying to get turned-on and then leave blue-balled ..."

From a recent review of a club (aka terma) in Rio Brazil:

####################### I went here on a Thursday night. While in Rio, I also visited Solarium and Centaurus. I'd rank 4x4 the best out of the 3, and it also had the lowest prices. Only downside is that it isn't open on weekends, and it's further away from the nice places to stay in Rio (although I never felt unsafe).

I arrived thinking it was going to be like Hong Kong in TJ, but this club is much smaller. I was dropped off by my uber at the entrance, patted down by security, and walked down a long hallway and up some stairs to a desk. There were 3 ladies (not stripper types) who spoke English and showed me the prices. I forget the exact prices shown in Reals, but I'll break down the price at the end. Spoiler: very reasonable.

I was given a key to my locker, but putting the robe on is optional here, so I didn't need to do that. I did use the key to get a drink though (that is how the termas work in Rio). No idea how much the drink cost, but it wasn't much.

The club was basically one room, that had a bar on one end and a stripper pole on the other end. I was there on Thursday night from around 11:30 p.m. to 12:30. I would guess there were ~25 girls working and 5-10 customers when I was there. The girls are similar in attractiveness to HK girls, but there are fewer of them. On the plus side, this is Brazil, so there was everything from girls with blonde hair and fair skin, to dark chocolate Afro-Brazilians.

Out of the 25 girls, maybe 5 were not attractive (older, maybe out of shape, fitting some niche I wasn't interested in etc.). The rest of the girls were definitely hot. They all wore lingerie, similar to HK, but the stripper on the pole would get fully nude obviously.

I eyed 1 girl who is the hottest girl I have ever seen in person. She looked like Autumn Falls, but with whiter skin and more attractive eyes. I know this is a big claim, but it's what I remember. An F cup at least, and natural. Welcome to Brazil. Another girl approached me and introduced herself though, and she was also attractive. I asked her if she did 3somes and she said that she did, so we walked over and asked the girl who I really wanted if she'd do a 3some. She said no, unfortunately, so I walked away and continued my search. Not long after, she changed her mind and the 3some was on. The puta to customer ratio probably helped change her mind.

They led me back to the desk where I got my key. While waiting to get to the room, they were both teasing me with their boobs, and rubbing their boobs together against each other and against me + 3-way DFK -- a much better front room experience than anything I have managed in HK.

We went up to the room and I had my mind blown. BBBJ was standard. I usually prefer a condom to be safe, but I don't speak Portuguese and conveniently decided to just let it happen. Best BJ of my life. They both sucked me at the same time. I don't want to get into too much detail because this is a review and not an erotic novel, but it was basically a pornstar experience. Exactly what I was imagining when I wanted a double blow job.

One started to DFK me while the other kept sucking. Then we got to fucking and the service was equally amazing as the BJ. I blew my load pretty quickly given the quality of service. I was ready for play time to be over, but to my surprise, they just kissed me for another minute, and then started the BBBJ all over again. This time, they licked each other's pussies, went tits to ass, the whole lesbian show thing while the other was sucking me. And this was all standard -- not negotiated in the front room or anything like that.

Summary of the service: best I've ever had. One of the girls was the most beautiful girl I've ever seen, and the other girl was hot as hell too. Lesbian show, double BBBJ, enthusiastic sex, blew 2 loads in one session, all standard.

Prices: You pay on the way out. I don't remember the breakdown, but my total bill was the equivalent of $165 USD. This included the 2 girls for 30 min, the room, 2 cocktails, and the cover fee. Incredibly inexpensive for the service compared to anywhere else I've been.

I went back on a Monday afternoon hoping to find the girl with natural F cups again, but she wasn't there. I got another girl for 30 minutes, and the service was the same as the first visit. BBBJ was standard (and also of amazing quality) + 2 loads in 30 min etc. Total for this visit was like $80 or something, but I didn't get any drinks.

tldr; very high quality service, fewer girls (and patrons) than HK, inexpensive. I have more reviews still to write, but this club was my favorite. ######################

nah not my cup of tea. I love the alluring figures, but I just can't get excited if a woman isn't sexing me because she's romantically or sexually into me. It definitely shows as you have sex. It's a huge turn off when I'm the only one enjoying it and she's pretending for the greenbacks. And I don't have sex with women who are inebriated to intoxicated.

@Estafador’s comment reminds me of

"Seinfeld" (TV Episode 1993)

Jerry gets a shocking revelation when Elaine reveals that she faked every orgasm while they were dating.

Jerry: You faked with me?

Elaine: Yeah.

Jerry: No.

Elaine: Yeah.

Jerry: You faked it?

Elaine: I faked it.

Jerry: The whole thing, the whole production, it was all an act?

Elaine: Not bad, huh?

Jerry: What about the breathing, the panting, the moaning, the screaming?

Elaine: Fake, fake, fake, fake.

m.youtube.com

:D

I agree with Estafador. I get off on the conquest. On women wanting me.

Drew and Ishmael, I have never said that what guys opt for in strip clubs is immoral. Quite the contrary, in lengthy threads with Mr. LDK82 I insisted that since all parties are at least 18yo, they can make their own decisions. And the women definitely understand what is going on.

As far as having fun, I don't really approach life that way. I feel exhilarated when I am able to accomplish something.

But just getting an escape, alcohol, or the endorphin rush, no I don't go along with that.

So I feel exhilarated if I am able to connect with a beautiful young woman.

Now US strip clubs were originally no touching. And the cost was lower. If you wanted more it had to be outside.

Later Jim and Artie Mitchell let the girls go out and sit on laps. But this was all front room and it tended not to be dry humping.

As Jim and Artie won an acquittal in a felony criminal trial, all legal risks were eliminated, and so the big brave soldiers of the Mafia came in, and they went to back rooms.

Then as the DotCom Boom took speculator money and drove real estate costs into the stratosphere, strip clubs became unviable.

So Deja Vu came in and bought them up and converted them to Clip Joints. And then via DV and other operators this model was propagated across the country. And DV is trying to export it to Tijuana.

A clip joint sells fantasy rather than reality. And the women learn to do what they do via dissociation. The money is real good, so they go along with it and learn it.

But if you go along with them you are being played, and played for a chump.

I am not saying you are doing anything immoral, but you are letting yourself be boxed into an absurd situation where your wallet is being hoovered out for nothing.

With most of the guys who do this it is simply because they are unwilling to keep their marriage vows. So they don't want any new woman calling them up on the phone and hanging around them

So yeah, it is both sides taking advantage of each other. I am not saying that this is immoral. Every one is over 18yo. But I am not impressed by the guys who do this, not at all. I don't think they offer any kind of an example to emulate. And I don't take any of what they say at face value. I think they are being played for chumps.

Experienced womanizers don't do it this way. They get the women out of a purely transactional mode, or they get her out of pure civvie mode, and they deliberately get her into a more fluid grey zone.

You can do this easily when you first meet a girl, no matter where you meet her. But the strip club is one of the best if you want her in high heels and makeup. You can get her accepting money from you and understanding that you are taking care of her, keeping her, and that you want this to continue outside ASAP. And in UHM clubs you can escalate this to FS right there. And you can get most of this going right there in the front room. This is the most fluid of places.

In AMPs you get more time in the session room with the girl, but the front room is usually more restrictive. Also the looks and dolling up minimums are lower. So you have to shop carefully.

But no one should need to go for the DV clip joint mode, buying dances, buying extras. No reason to play it that way. You don't need to take things at face value. You ca usually steer things your own way.

And I do think there is a personal integrity defect, a character defect, in the guys who go for buying dances and buying extras. It gets to their views about women, and often their unwillingness to conduct themselves ethically in relation to a spouse, and their unwillingness to face up to their own views and preferences.

And again, thank you Drew for starting this thread and for your role in keeping the conversation going and on track. It has been most constructive and I think some broad based understanding is being developed.

And I notice that not all of those posting go along with Buying Dances, Buying Extras, even though for the longest time, Buying Dances and Buying Extras has been the dominant voice on TUSCL.

SJG

TJ Street tuscl.net tuscl.net

Joni Mitchell - Amelia youtube.com

@Papi_Chulo commented and I quote:

“I agree with Estafador. I get off on the conquest. On women wanting me.”

Is that because of Spaniard/Latino’s “Machismo”?

“the culturally preferred goal is the conquest of women, and the more the better.

To take advantage of a young woman sexually is cause for pride and prestige, not blame.

In fact, some men will commit adultery just to prove to themselves that they can do it.

Excepting the wife and a mistress, long-term affectionate relationships should not exist.

Sexual conquest is to satisfy the male vanity.

Indeed, others must know of one's potency, which leads to bragging and storytelling.

A married man should have a mistress in addition to casual encounters.

His relationship with his wife is that of an aloof lord-protector.

The woman loves, but the man conquers—this lack of emotion is part of the superiority of the male (Ingoldsby 1991b).

family.jrank.org

^^^^^ Front Room Feel Up And Make Out Session!

SJG

Cj Kent. Maybe partly. I like the thrill. I get off on being with women and them giving themselves to me freely. I like them making more of an investment than me. It builds my self esteem. I am a little superficial. Looks matter a lot and I feel that's how I get validation. I know its toxic.

^^^^^^ FRFUAMOS!

SJG

Joni Mitchell Amelia youtube.com

TJ Street tuscl.net tuscl.net

Martinism youtube.com

@sjg: “ And again, thank you Drew for starting this thread and for your role in keeping the conversation going and on track. It has been most constructive and I think some broad based understanding is being developed.”

Thank you for acknowledging that, and thanks for clarifying the point wrt moral/immoral. I find one point that you raised interesting…. “no one should need to go for the DV clip joint mode, buying dances, buying extras”… this feels less like a morality judgement (as I incorrectly assumed before) and more a critique of the value or point of buying dances. Leaving aside the integrity/character question, it seems this perspective is more a product of an analysis of results. I.e. there is no point to buying dances, as you can achieve the same results or more with other methods. Which brings us around to FRMOS, etc.

People have let themselves be boxed into a compromised state. And this is what DV used to suck in all the money.

It is analysis and the results of experience.

But some of my experience was circumscribed by my own marital status.

SJG

@SJG posted "A clip joint sells fantasy rather than reality. And the women learn to do what they do via dissociation. The money is real good, so they go along with it and learn it.

But if you go along with them you are being played, and played for a chump.

I am not saying you are doing anything immoral, but you are letting yourself be boxed into an absurd situation where your wallet is being hoovered out for nothing.

With most of the guys who do this it is simply because they are unwilling to keep their marriage vows. So they don't want any new woman calling them up on the phone and hanging around them"

@SJG you keep defaulting to this situation about a guy unwilling to keep his marriage vows when talking about buying dances. Not sure why you keep assuming that everyone who goes to the strip club is married. The way you keep doing this makes me think that SLD was correct in his assessment of you that you are projecting the things that caused your marriage to fail on everyone else.

What's your problem with the single guy who goes to the club just to buy dances and not try to pursue a relationship with dancers outside of the club? You keep saying they are boxed in to that. But if that's what the single guy wants, what is the problem? If he wanted to pursue a relationship with a dancer he would be free to. But he doesn't, he just wants dances and that's it. His prerogative, right? You say his wallet is being hoovered out for nothing. But like Drew pointed out, it's not for nothing. That patron has a lot of fun via dances/extras for the money that he spends. Seems it's not YOUR idea of fun, but for that patron it is.

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

You wrote and I quote:

“I get off on being with women and them giving themselves to me freely...”

So what what was the situation with your Ex, the girl you were obsessed with?

Was she a mistress/wife/girlfriend that “gave” herself to you?

Or, was she a gold digger that went to the highest bidder, a half Boricua/Greek, pusher/drug dealer “biker”?

She's the love of my life. She just has some problems we're working. Shes a girlfriend. We lived together almost 5 years. We're taking things slower now but one thing we agree on is we don't want to lose each other

TFP, I don't think there are that many single guys who go to strip clubs and buy dances. Rather, I think they would find the girl they want, strip club or otherwise, and start wearing out a mattress with her.

Buying Dances/Extras, as I see it, is predicated on a Clip Joint. I won't even call it a strip club, that has you boxed in between the angry wife at home, and their aggressive hotties trying to suck your wallet dry.

And yeah, I have been in that situation. But the reasons my marriage failed were entirely internal conflicts and communications problems, not anything external.

SJG

OMS Martinism youtube.com

TJ Street tuscl.net tuscl.net

@SJG ok you're assuming what you think the single guy wants. YOU would rather go into the club or somewhere else and try to start a relationship. And to your point, a lot of guys actually DO try to get something going with the dancer outside of the club. We've seen the stories both here and other forums, sadly a lot of them end in heartbreak and a dose of reality for the patron.

But plenty of guys are also content with just getting dances. Once again, nothing wrong with that IMO.

You call a club where girls sell dances and sometimes extras a clip joint? What do you consider a strip club then?

^^^ Your dedication with regard to tilting at this particular windmill is admirable.

TFP, "end in heartbreak and a dose of reality"?

I think you are dividing women into two categories, and looking down on the women who dance in strip clubs.

I don't think there are many single guys who go to strip clubs and buy dances. Usually if they go to the club it will be for FS, and usually with an extensive makeout session to get the girl opened up, and I think most of the time they will come to be seeing a girl outside.

I don't think you will find many single buys doing what SLD does and then bragging about it on a message board.

SJG

^SLD?

I think my favorite thing about this thread is how it will change literally no one's behavior in a strip club.

@SJG so I saw you accuse Drew of this earlier, and now you're accusing me of it. Show me anywhere in my posts that demonstrates that I look down on dancers. Also show me how I'm dividing women into two categories.

I believe you pulled that 'two categories' thing out of thin air. Just like how the entire second paragraph of your last post looks to be you listing what you believe to be true as a fact. Where is your proof that 'Usually if they go to the club it will be for FS, and usually with an extensive makeout session to get the girl opened up, and I think most of the time they will come to be seeing a girl outside." I mean come on dude, that entire quote is always YOUR mantra of how you want a strip club visit to go. Now all of a sudden that what most single guys who goes to strip clubs does??!! In a lot of clubs in the US what you wrote for a typical single guy visit isn't even possible to take place.

Anyhow, you're straying away from what I was originally asking you and starting to just assume what every single guy wants. And you never even answered my question of what you believe a strip club is, since you call clubs that sells dances and extras clip joints.

@Drew SLD is a user that went by the handle Sirlapdancealot. We call him SLD for short.

SLD = SirLapDanceAlot, which really is SirCircleJerkAlot, a zombie who walks around as he is self digesting and decomposing.

And Ishmael, the idea is to be able to have some reasonable conversation, not to press anyone to change what they do in strip clubs.

SJG

TFP, I don't mean that in a mean spirited sense. Its just that in what you and Drew have each said it seems like you put the women who dance in strip clubs in a different category from the women you would want to have a relationship with. And I am not making it up, it is the basic means by which patriarchy gains and hold onto power, by bifurcating women, with different rules for each of the two groups. It is a built in, a given, unless one looks at it critically and rejects this.

And no I don't think very many single guys would be doing what SLD does, and then bragging about it on a message board.

tuscl.net

As I know the single guy would quickly find a girl he likes and get her into extensive DFKing and be wearing out a mattress with her. Maybe he found her in a Strip Club, or maybe he found her in a Deja Vu Clip Joint, or maybe else were, but quickly he would be DFKing her and pumping loads into her.

SJG

@SJG once again, point out exactly what comments made you think that. Because as of now you're not backing up your thoughts with evidence.

And you STILL haven't answered the question about what a strip club is to you. Since the clubs that offer dances and extras are just clip joints to you.

TFP posted, "YOU would rather go into the club or somewhere else and try to start a relationship. And to your point, a lot of guys actually DO try to get something going with the dancer outside of the club. We've seen the stories both here and other forums, sadly a lot of them end in heartbreak and a dose of reality for the patron."

As I read it, you are saying that the guy is delusional in trying to pursue a relationship with the woman who dances in a strip club, and then that is because she is in a special separate category from other women.

And this is the basic premise of strip clubs, men are praised for their sexual experience, whereas women are looked down on for the same.

And what is a strip club to me? Well like everything else, it is compromised in some ways. But what I read about TJ, and in that review that Papi posted above is pretty near optimal. We have some really good sounding UHM clubs in the US, and where FRFUAMOSs are common. But always, a strip club is where you can find young hotties that are accustomed to high heels and makeup. Most true civvies will not be that used to such. But the strip club girl will likely be happy to dress and paint up and do photo sessions.

But what I think would be best is if we can go to the Private Party / Membership Club model, as that will allow us to have venues as good as is reported on for TJ.

What makes DV operations Clip Joints is not only that they sell high priced dances, it is also that they impose extreme front room restrictions, not necessary in the rerulatory environment, like San Francisco. It is just a gimmick so that you are entering the dance booth with a girl with whom you have no intimate rapport.

It makes it easy for a girl, if she has the hot looks, to operate totally by dissociation. Where as the girl doing FRMOSs is not able to stay dissociated.

DV is primarily a think tank. They, with women in their highest ranks, have figured out the psychodynamics of strip clubs and found the formula for maximizing the money while minimizing what the girls really do, and eliminating the legal risk.

And this restrictive front room system is what they are trying to export to TJ.

SJG

SJG

@SJG thanks for answering the questions. But you are mistaken in your assumption that I am putting the girls in strip clubs in a different category. All I said was, I don't go into a strip club intending to find a GF. Much like I don't head into a bank and intend to find a GF. Also like I don't head into Target looking for a GF. If I happen to connect with a girl in any of these places, then great! However, it isn't my purpose for going into any of those places.

I didn't say that a guy was delusional for trying to find a GF in the strip club. I said the ones who do often end up in heartbreak or get a strong dose of reality. The heartbreak comes from falling for a dancer who they've been spending money on. The patron starts developing feelings, but the dancer does not. She doesn't outright tell them her true feelings, because she wants to keep making money. But eventually she has to, especially if the patron starts becoming too difficult. I mean right here on TUSCL we've seen story after story of guys who fell for a dancer, or tried to start something with a dancer outside the club. Most times, the story doesn't end favorably for the patron.

As for your definition of what a strip club is, I think it's unfair of you to compare US strip clubs to foreign strip clubs. Hong Kong TJ and the strip club in Brazil you mentioned, those aren't true strip clubs, they are brothels. The rest of what you mentioned revolves around your love of kissing, which doesn't sound like a good way to classify a real strip club IMO.

Nontheless, thanks for your responses.

Women who work in banks and department stores are always coming on to me.

You find the kind of women you want, where ever they are.

I don't think single guys would shell out lots of money in strip clubs for basically nothing, except to cum in their pants.

You don't need any extraordinary abilities to get women. If you give them a chance they will try to get their hooks into you. And that you can afford to pass out money, and that you have selected her, makes them more attracted to you, not less.

And no UHM venues are not really strip clubs. On the old blackstripclubs dot net the reviews of the best places always started out, "This is not a strip club..." And people say that about TJ too.

Women don't seem to have emotional or physical boundaries beyond DFKing and feeling up and FIV and the like.

SJG

Newshour Today youtube.com

@sjg: "seems like you put the women who dance in strip clubs in a different category from the women you would want to have a relationship with"

This makes more sense to me now. There are several reasons that I would put dancers (in general) in a different but not better or worse category than women I would want to have a relationship with. Of course an exception is possible.

1. I'm already in a relationship, and I don't want any more relationships. It's a set of one containing Mrs. C, with all other females in one or more other sets.

2. Generally, strippers are younger, less educated, and less professionally developed than the women I pursue relationships with. In general, a 20 something stripper and I just aren't going to have much common ground for conversation, though there have been exceptions. I am disinterested in "let me tell you all about life because I have so much life experience" conversations. Drug use, drama, and (IMO) bad taste in music are not uncommon among dancers, and these are things I avoid.

3. I have obscure tastes, most people aren't interested in what I'm interested in. There is just a low probability that I would find a kindred spirit in a room of 5-7 people, whatever their profession.

And the main reason...

1. I feel it's a misinterpretation to approach service workers for dates. Service jobs such as barista, bartender, waitress, massesse, and dancer all require the worker to be friendly to customers. Many men misinterpret this friendliness for being open to getting hit on. This is generally a mistake: the barista isn't being nice to you because she wants to date you, she's being nice because it's her job. She wants you to order your coffee, pay your bill (+tip) and leave. The context of dances, extras, OTC being a real thing, etc., muddies this water. So, on the principle of respecting the dancer as a worker in a workplace, I wouldn't ask a dancer out on a romantic date. Nor would I ask out my mechanic, tax preparer, etc. To be fair, reasons 1-3 make reason 4 a non-issue.

By the way, I don't judge you for having different opinions than me, nor do I need others to approve of my opinions or choices. I'm genuinely interested in what you gentlemen think, and why. To some extent, these conversations inform my thinking as well.

People always approach service workers for dates. And often they are very pleased about it.

And my personal view is that it shows greater personal integrity and honesty with yourself to learn to find all that you want in the same category of women, so educated conversation and sexual kinkiness together.

Otherwise I still think it is judgmental and limiting, and that you need to be honest with yourself and you need to keep your commitments and obligations.

We need to be open and out about what we want and what we believe in.

But I feel vindicated in my view that unattached guys are not likely to be very often buying dances or buying extras.

SJG

Do Girls Like Bondage youtube.com

SJG said "But I feel vindicated in my view that unattached guys are not likely to be very often buying dances or buying extras."

Well, you shouldn't feel vindicated. Because a big chunk of guys in strip clubs are unattached (including never married, divorced, or just plain single).

But where you get a hooker doesn't matter she's still a hooker

@Cj Kent I'm not sure whether your approving of what I said or mocking me. Your post is very confusing

Wtf is "DV"?

As Drew says, unless you're under 35, the age difference is likely to be the biggest complication with dating a stripper.

I guess I'm just weird. What I see is that people think of true love as meaning, somebody who'll stick with you even if something happens and your fucked. If I were fucked somehow, I'd rather off myself than pulled somebody else down with me. Especially someone I loved. Ideally, love means someone else's feelings, thoughts, goals and freedom matter as much to you as your own feelings, thoughts, goals and freedom. Hard if not impossible to find. No idea if it affects the chances for that if she's a stripper or not. But, I will say, strippers seem to be less judgmental on average than non-strippers, a quality I value highly in people.

@Estafador

I guess you need to watch the full episode of Seinfeld, to really get it.

You wrote and I quote:

“I just can't get excited if a woman isn't sexing me because she's romantically or sexually into me. It definitely shows as you have sex.”

Not mocking you, I was just remembering that the topic of knowing if she is really enjoying sex, having an orgasm, getting wet, milking, squirting has been discussed in TUSCL before.

And the majority of people agreed that unless she is really wet, milking and or squirting there is no way to know if the woman is “faking it”.

And DV is the abbreviation of the Deja Vu, the World's largest group of adult nightclubs that SanJoseGuy cam up with most people just call them the Vu.

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

So the half Boricua/Greek, pusher/drug dealer “biker” pimp dumped/kicked-out your Ex from his winning team?

Or she is seeing you behind his back?

So many holes 🕳 in your story...

@ilb: there is a lot of interesting content in your post.

‘I guess I'm just weird.”

I think we are all weird here, by virtue of having this level of interest in strip clubs. It’s not normal. It’s really not normal to spend this much time talking about subjects vaguely tangential to strip clubs.

“What I see is that people think of true love as meaning, somebody who'll stick with you even if something happens and your fucked.”

I see it this way too, but I might add the word “temporarily” in front of fucked. Someone who loves you is going to cut you slack when you’re fucked, but also expect you to work to turn it around. They’ll also help you turn it around.

“ If I were fucked somehow, I'd rather off myself than pulled somebody else down with me. Especially someone I loved.”

If it was a permanent type of fucked, and it was long term, I’d do the same. If it was fixable or short term, I’d expect the other person to support me through it, and I’d do the same for them. E.g. if Mrs C decided to become a crack addict, I’d support her through getting straightened out. If she decided to become a crack addict and had no intention to change her ways, I’d try to change her mind, give her plenty of time to straighten out, and then if it still wasn’t going anywhere, I’d dump her. I’d expect her to have enough self respect to do the same to me.

“ Ideally, love means…”

This is a very interesting premise. I think it means different things at different points along our biological life arc. At least is did for me. For me at 16, it meant butterflies. At 25 it meant a shared aesthetic and a ton of sex, at 35 it meant someone who shared in my humor, lechery, and adventures, at 40 it meant making sacrifices for one another’s life goals, and today at 52 it means commitment to staying married and shared work. It’s probably all just chemicals and little proteins connected to each other, but then so is all of the thought behind this 168 post thread.

“I find the notion of romantic love to be an unnecessary cultural construct that adds no value to human relationships.”

~ Neurobiologist Amy Farrah Fowler

Cjkent. He's not a biker he rides a dirt bike and he just resells weed he steals from his part time job at a dispensary. He's not a pimp. He just begs girls for money and throws tantrums and gives sob stories.

She realized she loves me.

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

You realize that the notion of romantic love is an unnecessary cultural construct that adds no value to human relationships, don’t you?

So where is she in her relationship with the half Boricua/Greek, pusher/drug dealer “biker”?

Doe she “realized” she “loves” him too?

I've come to feel, for me personally, open-ended commitments don't work. Understood it only lasts as long as it's good for both of you. The fact that I've never felt that I or the world had a need for any mini-mes makes this practical for me. Stripper or not isn't really an issue. I've never been the jealous/possessive type.

Cjkent. Romantic love is a human universal.

Ishmael wrote, "Because a big chunk of guys in strip clubs are unattached (including never married, divorced, or just plain single)."

I still don't think there are many single guys going very often into strip clubs and "Buying Dances" and "Buying Extras", and let alone bragging about it on a message board. It takes a real imbecile, and one who has convinced himself that it is not marital infidelity, and one who is just completely out of it, and must depend on his wife to tie his shoes each day, to come up with a narrative like this:

tuscl.net

Papi posted a great review text of a club in Brazil, an encounter which was heavy with DFKing and make out session, and of course FS. I think that is what a single guy would do. And it may or may not be in a strip club.

Icey wrote, "But where you get a hooker doesn't matter she's still a hooker" No matter where you meet her and the fact that you are handing her money, that does not define the relationship. There is nothing wrong with handing her money because it is a show of respect and it helps her pay her bills.

CJ_Kent doesn't seem to want relationships. Okay, but I still don't think CJ would be Buying Dances or Buying Extras, I think he would be a makeout session and FS man.

TPF wrote, " I don't go into a strip club intending to find a GF." You don't need to "find a GF". If you give the women half a chance they will clack to you like a magnet on the refrigerator door. The world is full of lonely young hotties. It's just that in a strip club most guys treat them like vending machines. Once she sees that you are not that way, expect that she will be calling you on the phone, if she does not go home with you that night.

Drew wrote, "I feel it's a misinterpretation to approach service workers for dates. Service jobs such as barista, bartender, waitress, massesse, and dancer all require the worker to be friendly to customers. Many men misinterpret this friendliness for being open to getting hit on" Women who work in banks, retail stores, restaurants, and lot of other places will come on to you all the time. They might stop short of asking you out, but they will make it clear that they want you to ask them out.

And for me, civvie night clubs are good because the women dress sexy, and PG-13 makeout sessions will not be prohibited. But the women in strip clubs wear higher heels, more makeup, and less clothes. And in UHM club, a makeout session will not have to stay in the PG-13 envelope. They certainly didn't in the best of our underground circuit.

A woman from a civvie night club would likely bristle at the idea of doing high heels and makeup photo sessions. To orchestrated, too slutty, too kinky.

But if she is a full fledged stripper escort, she will be fine with it. So I say that she is the most promising. And giving her money does not diminish this at all.

And thanks again to Drew for starting this most interesting thread, and helping to keep it flowing. It is drawing out people's various views.

SJG

Do Girls Like Bondage? youtube.com

^^ you only say that because you are bitter from your divorce of that Mexican mail order bride you purchased thinking she’d be your sexual servant with exchange for financial security. You’re plans changed and so did your ex wife. Move on and get over it SJG!

A woman will do practically anything for you if sheaves you. Or some if you pay enough. Sjg you keep describing relationships contingent on monetary payment.

Ilbbaicnl love is about acceptance. And there's nondesirebti change or control someone. If she's a hoe help her be the best hoe she can be. There are things a lot more 8mportant than monogamy. Like emotional loyalty honesty being there for each other no matter what. Feeling nothing but love no matter how fuckedbyp they are

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

You wrote and I quote:

“Romantic love is a human universal.”

LOL, sure in the Universal Studios movies and fairytales.

Romantic love as it occurs in our western civilization, inextricably bound up with ideas of monogamy, exclusiveness, jealousy and undeviating fidelity does not occur in other cultures like the Samoans or the Barbarians.

Even in Latin cultures the concept of a man with many women is the norm.

Romantic narratives ignore the variety and individuality of human beings and try to fit them to one single mold. Humans are different from each other.

In our capitalist society romantic love is a business to profit from just like religion, Christmas, the Tooth fairy, the Easter Bunny, etc etc etc.

God, Santa Claus, fairies and bunnies that lay eggs don’t exist. Common sense and math has proven that from the beginning.

Emotional bond pairing occurs in every society and in many animal species.

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

You realize that the notion of romantic love in our western capitalist civilization is not equal to pair bonding in living species, but it is an unnecessary cultural construct created for control, manipulation and profit and in fact it doesn’t adds value to human relationships don’t you?

Thats not true. Cultures express the notion of pair bonding differently but uts still present. The commercialization of valentines day isn't emblems of romantic love.

A relationship without romance sounds depressing af

Icey, pair bonding and romantic love play out different ways in different places and different times. They are entirely dependent on outside circumstances.

And in some venues payment is expected. If you can't or won't pay that will not work. No one is forcing you to go to such venues. But how money is distributed in our society is very unfair.

P4P sex is just one of the ways of breaking down the sexual restriction codes that come from religion and middle-class values.

If a woman is a full time professional sex worker, than she will probably always expect payment, until such time as you form a long term committed relationship with her. And this is only reasonable. She is only looking after her long term security in a very unfair world.

Now in counter cultural milieus, as you often find in the arts and music, and sometimes in religion, the rules of sexual restriction often are being thwarted and the line between civvie and sex worker can disappear.

SJG

Countryman's Thread About Why You Don't Want To Be Buying Dances: tuscl.net

P4p isn't romantic love.

^^^^100% agree.

Icey and TFP,

Romantic love is not an absolute invariable. It is entirely culturally relative.

I think this is all just away of saying that the women who dance in strip clubs are something less than other women.

And all you have to do is read what some of our own TUSCL women post to see that they are extremely intelligent.

Countryman's Thread: tuscl.net

SJG

TJ Street tuscl.net

I'll go for ITC every now and then but I prefer OTC tbh

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

“El amor es una cosa esplendorosa hasta que te sorprende tu esposa”

“Love is an splendorous thing until your wife surprises and startles you in the act.”

LOL

You should realize you were raise in one if not the most propagandized countries/societies in the world.

The romantic concept of love was given/feed to the American people, books, movies, religions, schools etc.

The people unconsciously internalize the idea and accept it, instead of thinking on the reason and specifics of the concept/idea itself.

Think 🤔 why do you glamorize the pimp/gangster marijuana lifestyle and thug life?

You know that the glamorizing of hip hop and gang members is like the cowboys and gangsters from the movies and the media; is being done for profit...

@SJG the fact that you take that statement as a put down to dancers shows a lot of confusion on your part. Dancers aren't WORKING in the club trying to find real love.

That's the part that dancers know, what smart customers know, but you are unwilling to accept. Dancers can find real love wherever they want, yes even at work at the club. But that's not the reason why they're there.

Strip clubs are fine tuned well oiled machine designed to separate marks from their money. And Deja Vu has made this even worse.

But there is nothing wrong about the women who dance in strip clubs. They exactly what they appear to be, beautiful women.

They only pretend to be FemBots, because otherwise most guys would be terrified of them.

As I have found, most young hottie dancers sleep alone and are lonely. And the fact that guys see them as "strippers" is a big part of the problem.

And glamorizing a sterotype, the black pimp gangster is intended to shock, offend, and provoke. It is exactly like Norman Mailer's essay, "The White Negro". Except for one difference, now it is minorities having fun and using the image themselves.

SJG

Cjkent of course capitalists try to profiteer off everything. Basic human needs are no exception.

Sjg strip clubs are work places for them. And yeah some sell gfes. It's possible to date them but not with p4p

99% of the reason why i go to strip clubs. You can get women to grind on you at a regular club for free. I'm not paying for air dances or low mileage dances ever. I don't care if the bitch is 10/10, it's an absolute no for me.

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

You should know the myth of romantic love, (like many other myths, God, Santa, Tooth fairy, Easter Bunny, etc, etc, etc), has always been used as a tool of social control and a powerful “sedative” for superficial appeasement of the people.

This is a undeniable reality in the USA and all the societies under its Imperial control.

@cjkent: what is your definition of “romantic love”?

Nothing wrong with superficial appeasement

What's your alternative to romantic love? P4p. Nothing more capitalist than that

@Icey, it's called the world's oldest PROFESSION for a reason. Not the world's oldest leisure time activity.

@drewcareypnw

To answer your question:

Q: @cjkent: what is your definition of “romantic love”?

A: In the USA and many places under its Imperial control worldwide, people “believe” in the myth of “romantic love”.

As shown on Movies, Songs, TV shows, books etc. The soulmate, the only one, the fairy-tale ending, simplistic, perfect, “And they lived happily ever after”

People try desperately find this “romantic love” because they believe it will take them to “happiness”.

These romantic fairy tales limit the aspirations of young women, “princesses” in search of a Prince Charming to “rescue” them from the evil spell of “reality”.

Until the eighteenth-century, “love/passion/lust” was not expected to end well.

Passion would end in shame, humiliation, dishonor, suicide (@ceoaticeysangelsllc), and ruin in almost every aspect of society.

Just like religion, and old the myths in society, romance is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

Absolutely - it’s part of hobby. ITC fs way to go or one can hookup w gal otc. I have hooked up w many strippers otc. Best is find one girl really good meetup with then stick w her.

In extras club where vip got fuck them in vip. $100-$300 pop. Leasing a young sexy girl for fuking is great. Like leasing new BMW then dumping off after put some good miles on it then go back to lot and get new one.

Cjkrnt you're saying the idea of romantic love basically makes it hard to please women. I think women are easy to please.

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

You wrote and I quote:

“you're saying the idea of romantic love basically makes it hard to please women. I think women are easy to please.”

That is not what I am saying.

The Myth of Romantic Love crates unrealistic expectations in human relationships.

Girls want a Handsome Prince Charming to take care of them. And a glamorous white wedding in a Castle since they are little princesses.

Men want a sex kitten in the bedroom and a beautiful Lady in living room.

It is all a “catfish scam” because they try to fool each other before “going steady” and creates disappointment because they cling to these unrealistic expectations in their relationships.

Eventually the reality of unfulfilled expectations creates stress and anguish in the form of sadness, hurt, anxiety, and anger.

And ultimately the feeling of “being fooled” because the expectations are unfulfilled and this feeling fosters resentment in the relationship.

You wrote “I think women are easy to please.”

How easy was to “please” the woman you call the “Love of Your Life”?

How realistic are the expectations you have regarding your intimate relationship with the “Love of Your Life”?

I have very realistic expectations. Relationships can be very easy. I've never disappointed a woman.

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

You wrote and I quote:

“I have very realistic expectations. Relationships can be very easy. I've never disappointed a woman.”

LOL

Your comment is the perfect example of:

“Everything on this site should be considered a work of fiction.”

You really“believe” you have never disappointed a woman? LOL

We should ask the women and get their side of the story...

Did your mythical “Ex” got together with the half Boricua/Greek, pusher/drug dealer “biker” because she was not disappointed?

You didn’t answer the questions:

How easy was to “please” the woman you call the “Love of Your Life”?

How realistic are the expectations you have regarding your intimate relationship with the “Love of Your Life”?

You are living in your own imaginary world of fiction.

You daydreaming seems compulsive, it overwhelms normal functioning, impeding relationships and work, but in your case both are fictional...

She loves me. And I never have disappointed women. If you act 8n person like you do on here then you know your problem. Don't projext

You call me delusional but you're on here with zero personality quoting theoretical bs like you have no life experiences. And condescending and troll me

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

“She Loves Me” is a musical with a book by Joe Masteroff, lyrics by Sheldon Harnick, and music by Jerry Bock.

The plot revolves around Budapest shop employees Georg Nowack and Amalia Balash who, despite being consistently at odds with each other at work, are unaware that each is the other's secret pen pal met through lonely-hearts ads

:D

You need to remember

The stories, all names, characters, and incidents portrayed in this website are fictitious.

No identification with actual persons (living or deceased), places, buildings, and products is intended or should be inferred.

Everything on this site should be considered a work of fiction

You're creepy and socially awkward af. Even by tuscl standards

Quotations and undeniable facts are used by me as a means of inspiration and to invoke philosophical thoughts from the reader.

Pragmatically speaking, quotations and undeniable facts can also be used as language games (in the Wittgensteinian sense of the term) to manipulate social order and the structure of society.

“Like everything metaphysical the harmony between thought and reality is to be found in the grammar of the language.”

~ Ludwig Wittgenstein ~ Austrian-British philosopher ~ Born: April 26, 1889, Vienna, Austria ~ Died: April 29, 1951, Cambridge, United Kingdom

Ludwig said it all...

The full stripper regalia of stripper shoes, stripper makeup, and stripper hair is intoxicating.

But at a restrictive strip club you can't engage with the girls very well, not as well as you can at a civvie night club.

At a civvie night club no one is going to try and stop a consensual PG-13 makeout session.

At a strip club, it has to be a loosely run one for that. In the reviews of US clubs there are plenty of such examples.

And always, buying dances is a chumps game. You give your girl money and engage with her in the front room, until you really need the back room, then you invite her.

And TFP and ICEY, a woman will go to her strip club because it is her job and it is how she gets money. But it most certainly is possible to get her off script.

So then giving her money is just a show of respect.

And in most situations women are getting money or social advantage from the men they fuck. There is no real line which distinguishes P4P, not unless you want to enforce one.

I think the idea that the women who dance in strip clubs are of some lower order than other women and so that dalliances with them don't constitute cheating is why strip clubs attract married men. And I think this is also why they and this board attract Republicans, as they believe that you can measure someone's moral worth by their degree of compliance with normative standards. The strip club women are not Suburban Soccer Moms, so in the eyes of a Republican, they are morally tainted. This is who strip clubs, and this strip club forum, attract.

SJG

TJ Street tuscl.net

M Davis Bitches Brew 1970 youtube.com

Herbie Hancock Maiden Voyage (Full Album) youtube.com

Dion — Runaround Sue youtube.com

Dion - The Wanderer - 1961 youtube.com

en.wikipedia.org

It's possible and easy to seduce stripper hoes. But not by paying for sex .

ICEY, you keep on saying the same things over and over.

Money is a show of respect.

SJG

Iwhen you give money to a hooker it's a payment for sex and you know it.

Cjkent while I do like your political posts. You're not inspiring anyone here

A women who is presenting herself in a P4P venue can be gotten to. They are exuberant when someone shows interest in them beyond just p4P.

And then the money is just a show of respect.

You might be able to get her off the clock, if that is your objective. But smart guys around the world seem to like to keep women on the clock.

Wives are usually not really off of the clock.

SJG

PBS Newshour, leading with Ukraine youtube.com

"They are exuberant when someone shows interest in them beyond just p4P."

That's called being an RIL. Surely you knew this?

Your fantasies of seducing a working girl on the clock come off creepy and rapey.

Not so, when one is dicking a girl, one is not a RIL.

A RIL just wants to be listened to, no real mileage.

When you are moving on her and making it happen with her, you are not a RIL. And getting her outside becomes vary easy.

Tetradon, you sound like your turning into Ishael.

SJG

^ No, an RIL is the kind of guy that says "I think she really likes me as more than just a customer," regardless of whether you're dicking her or not.

When you are "moving on her," she is giving you the fantasy that she is interested in you, because the facsimile of affection opens your wallet.

If I hear about an RIL stripper killing in the South Bay, I'll know where to look. Get back to reality. And that reality is that you're a customer.

PS - Thank you, Ishmael seems like a good dude and one of the more level-headed guys here.

Tetradon, then you are the one who has lost it. The women who do sex work are no different from other women, even if they are not Republican Suburban Soccer Moms.

SJG

Giving a dancer money is a payment. Full stop.

Specifically, it's a payment for services rendered, whatever those might be. Now, granted, a dancer might consider it disrespectful to offer to little for the job they do (and she could be correct), but at its core it's payment for work. This belief that handing a dancer money makes her want to open herself up to you emotionally isn't how normal brains work.

Which explains a lot about you believing this to be true.

"The women who do sex work are no different from other women,"

Except that they demonstrate affection for money. You pay them money and think they see you differently. You are wrong. You even fantasize about drawing them into your sex cult, that makes you a white knight in addition to an RIL.

Bless your heart if you believe you're different.

All women have an affection for money.

They present themselves as P4P, but this is never really all that they are.

And I will not be running anything like a Save-A-Ho ministry.

Sex worker women are one of the types of people who live beyond the pale. And this makes them interesting.

Wake up Tetradon. You should like you keep your head shoved down a hole.

SJG

"You should like you keep your head shoved down a hole."

I'm sure that made sense in your head.

I look forward to hearing about you on the 6:00 news.

You have a very small social base from which you are forming your views.

You are what the call "A Frog In A Well".

SJG

^ Says the guy who spends nearly a full-time job's worth of hours on a titty bar message board, ranting about a phantom organization for 8 years, and convincing most of the board that he is autistic and/or schizophrenic.

^^ Tetradon, you are the one who is out of it.

SJG

@cjkent: "soulmate, the only one, the fairy-tale ending, simplistic, perfect, “And they lived happily ever after”

...I see what you mean. Your posts come off a little negative on the subject of love, but when you put it like this I'd have to agree with you. There is a lot of nonsense packaged for sale as "love", and a lot of dummies who buy that and then get divorced a few years later. My one lucky experience with love includes shared work, commitment to staying married, family, way too much baby and animal shit, and a degree of affection, pretty far from the definition above. It does not (for the inevitable point that someone on tuscl will make) always include sexual exclusivity.

To have some fun with the list you provided...

soulmate - there is no God, she doesn't exist. Even if you read the bible, there's nothing in there about people getting soulmates. Also your dog doesn't go to heaven.

the only one - this is absurd. If there was ONLY one person in space and time that you could manage to hold a marriage together with, the odds are that they'd be dead and would have lived in China or India. They wouldn't be within 10 years of your age and hanging our at your buddy's bbq.

the fairy-tale ending - this is rich. Most fairy tales started out as gory shame pieces for illiterate peasants, and they normally ended badly. Enjoy a few un polished 18th century Grimm's tales translated from the original German: amazon.com if you haven't come across this before. Guaranteed fun! My personal favorite from this book is "How Some Children Played at Slaughtering" en.wikipedia.org ...just imagine this little gem told in a German accent!

simplistic - unless one retard married another retard, it's hard to imagine a relationship that works out to simplistic over the long haul.

perfect - definitionally implausible

“And they lived happily ever after" - not if they lived together!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA

You can pick up strippers. That's not the issue. It's doable.

Paying for sex or her spending time with you being contingent on payment isn't the way to do it though. With that the most you get is buying a gfe.

Intimate relationships play out according to outside social forces, like material expectations.

People may try, but unless they live in a commune, it is hard to get away from that.

The relationship does not protect them from outside social forces, it exposes the principles to them.

SJG

Really pretty young Vietnamese girl in a mini dress and high heels once tried to dry grind me in an AMP. It was near S.F. and she had learned how it was done.

But soon I shifted her to a makeout and feel up session, and the a real nice FS.

SJG

@ceoaticeysangelsllc

Remember:

“Hay gente que si les quitas lo pendejo

Se queda sin nada!

...y pos esta cabron”

:D

Kinda sad that I agreed with most everything Icey had to say in response to SJG. Then again I guess it's not sad. We agree on some things, and strongly disagree on others. No matter how SJG tries to frame it, paying a girl money to get her attention isn't respect, it's transactional.

Also funny that SJG had the nerve to say that Icey is just repeating the same thing over. Really?? Muthafucka your posts have looked like copy paste jobs for the last 5 years now.

@drewcareypnw

Louis CK came up with the “Marriage Equation”

‪Love‬ + ‪Time‬ - ‪Distance‬ = ‪Hat‬e

‪(Love‬ plus ‪Time‬ minus ‪Distance‬ equals ‪Hate)‬

And embracing divorced life:

"I love being divorced.

Every year has been better than the last.

That is the only time I can say that [about my life].

By the way, I’m not saying don’t get married.

If you meet someone, fall in love, and get married.

Then get divorced.

Get divorced! Because that's the best part! It's the best part! Marriage is just like a larvae stage for true happiness, which is divorce.

Divorce is forever, it really actually is.

Marriage is for how long you can hack it.

But divorce just gets stronger, like a piece of oak.

No one ever says, 'Oh my divorce is falling apart. I just can’t take it.'"

m.youtube.com

Louis CK - Divorce - from Oh My Good special

:D

^hahahahah!

My marriage was a hell that I just barely survived. And this had nothing to do with my exploits in AMPs or Strip Clubs.

The woman would just not allow open on the level communications. She insisted on trying to have power and control scenarios.

SJG

From having talked about this subject with TFP and others, I think the appeal of strip clubs for most here is that the women are looked at as something less than other women.

I mean, if you approached a girl at a civvie night club, you pretty much go to be straight with her, or you won't get anywhere.

But in a strip club, they know that most of the guys are married, they just don't ask probing questions. And at a strip club everything costs money, but that is paying them to go away. The women are of legal age and they accept this.

And then the appeal especially for Republicans / Libertarians, is that they see that you can judge the moral worth of someone by their degree of compliance with normative social standards.

So these strip club dancers are not Suburban Soccer Moms, so they are already seen as being of a lower moral order.

SJG

@SJG I think everything in your last post is false. You keep making this false statement about customers seeing women in strip clubs as lower worth. And your reasoning is, well if you were in a civie club you would try to kiss a girl you were into. You can't compare civie clubs with strip clubs. In civie clubs, both men AND women go with the intent of dancing, flirting, and possibly hooking up. In strip clubs, the women are there WORKING. The same fact you keep glossing over. They're not there to meet men, they're there to earn money.

In a civie club if a girl is not interested in you you'll know right away. In a strip club however, the girl is gonna act charming towards you even if she thinks you're ugly as fuck. I believe this is giving you another false belief of yours, that you can approach any women and get her. You can do that in a strip club for the right amount of cash, sure. You go to a civie club and your success rate will be much lower.

Just to clarify, I've had discussions with TFP

tuscl.net

I know he does not agree with me. I am just posting what I surmise to be really true.

In a civvie night club, if you want to get anywhere with a girl, you have to be open and straight with her.

So the appeal of the strip club is that you don't have to be open and straight. So you pay them to not ask questions, and to go away and stay away.

Now today, I am totally open with girls in strip clubs. I tell them right off a story which includes all the things a civvie would want to know, but a stripper learns not to ask.

And when I was in a death trap of a marriage, I too used strip clubs and the women as an escape.

But maybe the difference with me is I was not bragging about it. I would never write something like: tuscl.net

No, I knew I was in a compromised situation, the most pathetic of losers.

I knew that I just had to hold out until I could effect a legal and emotional victory, and restore my legal status. And it was hard.

And I always knew that Extras and Buying Dances were idiocy. Even in San Franciso's DV Clip Joints, where they make it hard to engage any other way, I always knew that it was chump stuff. And if you think about it some, there are other ways to engage with their women ITC.

And overall, if you are open and honest with a strip club girl and demonstrate generosity, but also just engage with her in a civilian way, and if she accepts this, then there will from right then be an emotional involvement.

For me today, there is no reason I would go to a strip club and not be open to this. I have no need to pay beautiful women to keep away. I am open to pursue the ones I like.

Now maybe we do have a few single guys who still go for the Buying Dances and Extras and keeping the women at a distance. I think these guys just hold extreme social darwinist views. And Libertarianism is only a repackaging of social darwinism. So yes, they completely look down on the women.

For me, strippers are more sexualized, more out there, and I love the full heels, makeup, and hair regalia, so I love them.

SJG

TFP, it all depends on how you interact with the women in strip clubs. It is up to you.

SJG

The women who dance in strip clubs are not different from other women. And if you treat them like ordinary women, that is what they will be.

SJG

^ And "ordinary women" aren't dolled up to arouse you sexually, get hit on left and right, get "fallen in love with" enough that there's a term for it (RIL), then take your cash.

They play a role in the strip club, but they are still ordinary women.

SJG

^ Keep telling yourself that

And it is 100% true. It is just that most guys do not want to relate to them as ordinary women. They want vending machines.

So when a guy does treat them as he would any other women, they REALLY APPRECIATE IT and they let it show.

SJG

^ Whatever. If you believe that, you haven't read the dozens of differing opinions about that on this site.

I read all the opinions. Most guys go to strip clubs because they have convinced themselves that the women who dancer there are something other than ordinary women.

I know first hand that this is not true, and I have never interacted with them on such a premise.

SJG

Most guys don't want to see strip club dancers as ordinary women. They reason they come to the strip club is that they believe that they are women whom you don't need to treat as you would other women.

But the truth is, that with strippers and other sex workers they are living marginalized lives, lived beyond the in the eyes of many. So it is actually easier to get under their skin than it is with most civvies.

SJG

"For me, strippers are more sexualized, more out there, and I love the full heels, makeup, and hair regalia, so I love them."

You just said they are ordinary women. You contradict yourself every other post.

@Tetradon that's crazy, I was just getting ready to post that he is contradicting himself with the ordinary woman thing.

He says they are ordinary woman. Then he says this:

"So these strip club dancers are not Suburban Soccer Moms, so they are already seen as being of a lower moral order."

If they are ordinary women, couldn't they also be soccer moms? Shit, I bet there a plenty of strippers across America who take their kids to soccer practice.

Shit, we all know they are ordinary women. You're making them out to be more overtly sexual than any other woman who isn't a stripper. Newsflash, a soccer mom can get dolled up just the same as a stripper.

SJG you keep saying you like the high heels, lingerie, and all that. The only reason you get to see them like that is because they are AT WORK, in a place where they are required to dress like that to make money. I highly doubt if you started seeing a dancer outside that she would put in that same effort to get dolled up every time you went to bed. The motivation to get dolled up is to get money and to stand out from other dancers who are competing for the same money. She ain't gonna be dressing up like that just for you to be living out some fantasy of having a stripper GF.

If you want to relate to them as ordinary women then treat them as such. Don't pay them for sex. Don't fetishize their work clothes.

You don’t understand sex workers^^. They get paid to leave, and if you don’t pay them they will think they’re in a relationship with you. Many members on here don’t want a relationship with a sex worker, and still want to treat them like an ordinary girl, just they want them to leave them alone after a lap dance or sex or whatever you’re getting from them. It’s transactional, which is outbid the norm unless you believe dating is also transactional because significant others are also getting something out of it too. Usually one arrangement wants money for sex, and a significant other exchanges sex for stablemcomianionship.

Meat I understand your organization. Pimping your wife. But you're delusional to think a hooker will think she's your gf unless you pay her to leave. Just coz your wife stuck around doesn't mean they're all like that

^^ dude yiu better take another hit off your oxygen, looks like long covid has affected your ability to comprehend reading. Never once have I said a sex worker is my girlfriend, but definitely have said that strippers will give me lapdances enthusiastically. Not sure where your little man complex is going with this, but keep talking about how you’ll show up at your 10 year high school reunion just to piss everybody off that yiu still hold a grudge to. Maybe you can score a few pharmaceutical sales with them, yiu drug dealer!

You said your family is just like sjgs organization.

^ Some how I don’t think that’s what he said. His family is real SJGs organization is a fantasy.

That makes it a lock sicker

^ more likely you’re a sick licker, but I’ve never seen anyone make a lock sicker.

That makes it look sicker my nigga lulz

^ Oh gee, I don’t speak slurred slang. If you’d talk like a normal person and stop faking that stupid ghetto jargon someone might possibly understand you. We know that you’re really a sheltered middle class fag from the Valley, you ain’t got the cred to pull off that gang banger fugazy, but I guess once a phony always a phony.

Where you from fool? Lulz

The valley is ghetto.

^^^ we all pity you, because you act the fool.

The women who dance in strip clubs are living lives of lower social status. So they are not Suburban Soccer Mom's.

But as such they are more interesting.

And the full stripper regalia is something that most women would consider excessive, even in private.

Strippers are more interesting because they are more out there, so it is okay.

In some venues money is expected, so if you want to engage you have to supply it.

But you still treat all women as ordinary women. And with a full fledged stripper escort, she has to be getting some benefit of some type.

SJG

SJG

Ken Burns - The War youtube.com

"Strippers" and "Hookers" are not of a moral order less than other women. They are not more deceitful or more duplicitous in their motives than wives and GFs. Quit the contrary. It is the civvies who are more covert and who will have hidden agendas.

Strippers and hookers are generally easier to engage with because they are more down to earth, they live with a lower social status.

And these sex workers generally are much cooler about outfits that civvies would think are too "objectifying" and to slutty and too much like a sex worker.

So the sex workers are easier to deal with.

But at core they are no different from other women. And they are not really even FemBots. They just pretend to be FemBots, because otherwise the vast majority of guys would be too terrified of them to engage.

At core the sex workers are ordinary women. The dividing line between civvie and pro is one invented by patriarchy. Some women are broken by this and support the division, but sex workers are not likely to.

If you engage with the sex worker as you would any other woman, then it is likely she will really open up to you. And the fact that she still wants money to pay her bills and to compensate her for her time does not in anyway diminish the openness she is offering.

Sex workers do not demand from you anything like what GFs and Wives do.

SJG

The War - Ken Burns youtube.com

SJG posted "The women who dance in strip clubs are living lives of lower social status. So they are not Suburban Soccer Mom's."

So then it's YOU who sees the women who dance in strip clubs as lower status. All this time you've been trying to accuse myself, Drew, and others of that. But right here in your post you wrote that they are living lives of lower social status like it was some kind of fact.

Well I don't believe that. If that's what you believe, then own it. Don't try to project your feelings on to someone else.

It is the whole society which sees them as lower social status, and often they see it this way too. And it is especially the Republican / Libertarians on this board who see it this way.

Living a life of lower social status is what minorities, immigrants, and displaced workers have to do. It does not mean that I think any less of them.

And I have never suggested approaching strippers, hookers, sex workers in any manner different than you would approach and deal with other women.

It is the people you have listed who say they should be classified and treated differently. And this is how most of the society, men and women both, feels.

SJG

Yeah she will open up to you if you treat her with respect and are real with her. But not if you're her customer

That she wants money does not make her any less. You act like you want her to jump through the hoop of a freebie. That is not respecting her.

SJG

If she fucks you for money you're va customer. You understand that but refuse to acknowledge it

^ SJG is delusional. There's a term for someone who thinks he stands out among other PLs.

Regular In Love.

No, you always get her ready to fuck you first. Then you show care and respect by giving her money.

What is delusional are all the people here who see strippers and hookers as something other than ordinary women.

SJG

^ LOL. You just described an extras transaction.

You. Are. A. Customer.

No, buying extras is when you try to get the girl to agree to do something for you for money.

I don't do it that way.

and Evasparkling's thread: tuscl.net

SJG

^ Incorrect.

In my experience. When you meet a dancer in a club and she really likes you. She's more likely to play hard to get and test to see if you're into her or just want to fuck a stripper. There's no monetary exchange for her time sex or anything. You pay for a date like you would with anyone

They show they like you by letting you into her real life. She'll leave her purse around you she shows you her I'd. Untriduces you to family and friends.

It doesn't revolve around her work persona and you paying her for sex.

I don't get why this js so hard to understand.

A gf isn't a gfe

get the girl to agree to do something for you for money

This is not what I do.

SJG

Sjg would these girls be around if you didn't pay them?

No they would not.

And I do give them money.

But I don't try to get the girl to do something for me for money.

And usually this is after things have already gotten quite far along.

SJG

But they do it for the money. It's just prostitution.

What they do is what they want to do. They are old enough to make their own decisions.

They are not any less moral than Wives or GFs.

And I never act like money motivates them or like they are selling anything or like I see them as anything other than ordinary women.

SJG

"And I never act like money motivates them or like they are selling anything or like I see them as anything other than ordinary women."

Which is why you're delusional.

"And I never act like money motivates them or like they are selling anything or like I see them as anything other than ordinary women."

The absolute unmitigated truth!

SJG

Miles Davis Electric Funk youtube.com

You're putting a moral judgment on them by pretending p4p isn't prostitution coz saying it is would make it bad in your eyes.

Negative!

I am simply interacting with them as ordinary women.

SJG

Miles Davis Electric Funk youtube.com

You're only lying to yourself

You don't lay ordinary women to fuck you

I am generous with them. In a strip club that starts as soon as I get within arms reach.

In other places it is when the girl asks for money.

But I am not paying them for anything.

And they are not more demanding than Wives or GFs, much less so.

SJG

Mile Davis Electric youtube.com

@sjg: if you stopped being "generous" with them, would they still spend time with you?

Not coming out of a strip club, no they would not.

But the same is largely true of wives and GFs

And long term, if getting the girl off of the clock is your objective, the stripper might work out. But experienced womanizers world around prefer to keep their women on the clock in various ways.

In my case they all get groomed for my organization. Once in they will be extremely well taken care of. But no, they don't get money handed to them, they don't get to use our guys as ATM's, and they don't get anything like session fees. But this is all getting very far beyond an initial strip club meeting.

SJG

@sjg: "Not coming out of a strip club, no they would not."

...that is precisely because you are paying them to spend time with you. Before you paid them, they would not have spent time with you. When you stop paying them, they will stop spending time with you. Your internal narrative about the intentions and implications of that transaction are relevant to you, but have no bearing on the transaction.

Whether you pay them because...

• "(I) show care and respect by giving her money" or
• "I respect her role as a service worker who deserves fair payment for services rendered" or
• "I pay before/after/during the encounter" or
• "P4P"

...does not change the fact that you have made an exchange of cash for services. You give money, they do the dirty.

I'm certain that that average stripper doesn't care what your internal narrative is in the slightest.

@icey? You know stripper-psychology, am I right?

Drew I've been around them enough to understand them

Perhaps people should broaden their perspectives to witness the numerous, infinite, striking and ingenious ways that the human individual unique spirit asserts itself.

Drew, the women who dance in strip clubs are still ordinary women. And when they find a guy who treats them as such, they really open up.

And for me, getting them off the clock is not really an objective anyway. Going off the clock is not important. I rather let them continue to see that I respect them.

And Icey, GF's cost money. How much do you think a GF costs, with the car key and wallet dates? How much is the monthly cost?

And then, how much of a grace period do you get before she wants to radically increase the level of financial commitment?

She is after all looking to find approval in her friends and parents, and for that the relationship has to progress along an approved trajectory.

For myself, the remedy is in my organization, a counter cultural secret society. Starting off with a high percentage of Stripper Hoes will be most constructive.

SJG

Mile Davis Big Fun youtube.com

So you admit they're just hookers by saying they're still on the clock.

Sure dating is an expense.

Icey, you are being silly.

Most of the time women are getting financial, material, or social benefits through the men they fuck.

The ones who are not are either adolescents being supported by their parents, or those who have got their sites set on much bigger prizes.

Car key and wallet dating is wasteful, but giving your girl money is not, because she can use it to pay her bills.

SJG

In other countries guys, smart guys, keep mistresses. They aren't wives, but they aren't hookers either.

SJG

Why is 7t so hard to just admit to paying hookers?

^ I don't know Iceefag, tell us why is it so hard for you to admit ?

Icey, sometimes you can find a woman who would like to go out into the bush to do missionary work with you. And sometimes you can find a woman who would like to live off grid on a farm.

But the vast majority want continual conspicuous consumption and evidence of economic advance.

So how long do you think a GF would continue to see you without continuing generosity and expenditure?

And how pleased to you think a wife would be without these displays?

SJG

70s Electric Miles Davis Mix (Jazz, Jazz Funk, Jazz Rock, Fusion..) youtube.com

Miles Davis The Dark Side Of Bitches Brew (unpublished tracks) youtube.com

Women aren't things that you buy. If you were right then broke men wouldn't have relationships or kids.

By generosity you mean handing over cash. That's not how relationships work.

And spending money in a relationship doesn't equate to prostitution

Most of the time women are getting some combination of cash, rent and bills payment, material, or social advantage.

Where you might find an exception is with a woman who is an artist or intellectual herself.

The idea of prostitution is misleading. It is really because some people don't want the free circulation of women. SJG

In a marriage or long term committed relationship of course a man helps with bills etc. That comes with a commitment.

When you're dating that isn't done. Even these instathots acting like bad bitches don't get that from their real boyfriends.

Prostitution isn't misleading its very straightforward

Women usually expect a great deal more than helping with bills. They expect a total commitment. They expect the man to be in harness.

Prostitutes expect nothing of the sort.

To find a woman who is different, look for one who is a creative artist or intellectual herself. Of course My Organization will be snatching such girls up as fast as we can find them.

Joyce Johnson, My Life With Kerouac amazon.com

But most women are externally directed conformists. They expect things which give them bragging right with their friends and family.

Strippers and Prostitutes live beyond the pale, so they are already far above average.

SJG

OMS - Martinism part 4/5 - St. Martin the Unknown Philosopher youtube.com

That comes with marriage and commitment not just dating.

Casual dating is far from like that.

It's not like you have to choose between a wife or a hooker.

No you don't have to choose between a wife or a hooker. They are just two perspectives on the same woman.

SJG

That's not true. You're creating a fantasy to pretend p4p isn't prostitution

^* two in a row! Lightning strikes twice in agreement with Icee!

Sjg: “ To find a woman who is different, look for one who is a creative artist or intellectual herself.”

There’s nothing rare about female artists or intellectuals. There are plenty of both.

Women aren't as materialistic as many on here think. Of course if you have a GFE or sugaring relationship or regular p4p it's all contingent on money. But those women are regular women. And couple that with the many complaints on here that many have broke bums for boyfriends and there you have it. But that's not endemic to stripper hoes.

The point is anything real isn't contingent on payment.

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