Hot female customer ruins my night

The phrase "grow up already" comes to mind.

Really, Book Guy, this refrain of yours seems like an exhibitionist neurosis. You fancy your confessions of self absorption to be a lot more fascinating for us to read about than they are. Sorry.

I thought you had to be 18 to post on this board. Somebody check this guy's I.D. because his post is demonstrative of someone with the emotional development of a 14 year old freshman in high school...

Do we need to call your mom for you? Maybe get you a great big hug to soothe that fragile ego? Wow...get some help man, this post of yours is just sad.

Driver01: Was it me, or Chandler, whom you were lambasting as childish? I think both our posts' tones could easily lead to that conclusion ... :) ...

But seriously. I'm surprised at the invective. Thought this was a board of kindred spirits who understood the horrors of feeling like a Pathetic Loser at times. Maybe the need to bluster and puff up one's own ego, by performing an act which implies that the author would never lose as much self-control as to fall into the type of insecurity my original post indicates, is fueled mostly by the knowledge that a similar insecurity is ALL TOO READILY instigated in their own lives. Maybe ...

C'mon dudes. Hit delete, don't flame.

God, I thought I was a PL. I only get my feelings hurt when my ATF starts showing me pics of her boyfriend and kid and the jealousy hits me. At least I don't let female customers bother me.

I believe you are the one that invited a response by requesting feedback with your final comment-- you said, "What's wrong with me? :(."

I think it's a stretch to categorize my reply as invective, but given your self-described "Pathetic Loser" status, I can certainly understand how you might take it that way. Truly, my response was more an expression of incredulity at the mindless dribble you actually put thought into writing. Your post is one of the most childish, self-absorbed and ridiculous things I've read here-- You're a grown man who rather than accept and deal with the realities of your life chooses to cry and whine like a little girl who can't get her way. I am hopeful that perhaps it was written tongue in cheek and the jokes on me because I failed to recognize obvious hyperbole in it's most extreme...If so, good one.

Otherwise, here's a thought for you-- (no invective intended)-- Get it together and MAN UP!

Hey, I thought I was only telling you what you were begging to be told. Your original post was so over the top, any reply that soft pedalled the message to "grow up" would have lacked proportion.

Sorry if the charge of exhibitionism seems harsh. This seems like about the 10th time you've posted about this same insecurity in the same frenzied tone, littered with all caps. Any time the subject of women patrons comes up. Usually, I just ignore it, as does most everybody else. This time, you asked what's wrong, so I thought I'd tell you once and for all. What did you expect?

Do I ever feel envy when seeing a hot girl with another guy? Sure, sometimes a little bit, but it's no bluster to say that I never feel consumed by it. I'm far more apt to be too busy admiring the girl to pay any attention to the dude she's with, let alone see them as some reflection on me. (?!?) In a strip club, the only resentment I feel about hot chick patrons, and it's minor, is when they act entitled to be the center of everyone's attention.

Wow ... didn't realize this was such a hot-button issue for you guys ... sorry to have prodded your insecurities so much. :P

I'll stick to my own cups from now on. No need to mess with the board just for a little honesty. I realize I'm being pathetic -- it was part of the deliberate tone of the post. Sure, it's sad to BE a Pathetic Loser, but it's also a bit HONEST for ANY strip-club patron to recognize his own Pathetic-Loser-ness and, if not wallow in it, at least admit its truth on certain occasions. I wonder why this kind of discussion angers you so? I didn't do anything TO you ... except I suppose waste your bandwidth and reading time.

Mea culpa. :(

BG, I'll be a little more gentle. I see a few reasons why someone would react as you described, none are very flattering. One, you were upset by the fact that you can't have any woman you want. Two, someone else had a shinier newer toy than you. Three, everyone else saw the other guy had the hottest girl and therefore you think they would all consider him better than you. Is it something else I haven't mentioned? If you have another theory please feel free to expand, but frankly I think the reasons I've posited seem to cover it.

AN: sure, those are fair renditions of why I felt how I did (though item three, the comparison theory, isn't majorly operative, I don't think). But they aren't decent reasons for why my post would offend others so much.

In theory, when a dude's being an idiot within general earshot, his idiocy isn't a threat to other dudes. Their need to get voluble about it is just as much an indication of their insecurities as of anything else. And no, I don't admit to being an idiot. :)

BTW, AN, your post and mine hit at the same time, above -- a little bit of chat overlap.

Book Guy, if you honestly believe that you have touched a nerve or that your speak for insecurities the rest of us secretly hold but lack the courage to express, I think you give yourself too much credit. When somebody says they don't share your feelings, that's not necessarily a sign that they do. I don't know what makes you think I'm angry with you. My last post was pretty tolerant, I thought. No hard feelings here.

Out of curiosity, Book Guy, how many times have you asked a woman you found incredibly attractive out on a date?

Ok, chandler, maybe I misread your tone. But you didn't say you simply "don't share [my] feelings," which would indeed be sufficient only for disagreement (of a polite sort). You said something more along the lines of suggesting I shouldn't HAVE my feelings. That's why I thought maybe my confession felt threatening.

Whatever. I had hoped to speak in a rather mock-pathetic tone (adopting the role of Pathetic Loser into my life) and indulge in a little hyperbole. Bit too much over the top, I guess. And since there's a grain of truth in any irony, the real questions became too involved too fast to follow.

JC -- never met one. I'd ask her out if I had. Courage or up-front-ness hasn't ever been the problem with me (as the initial post might attest). Different issues abound. What about you?

Wow.
The OP has taken the term "Pathetic Loser" to a whole new horrifying level.
Please seek therapy.
SOON.

Book Guy: You're right, I said more than that I didn't share your feelings. My main suggestion was that you shouldn't WALLOW in your feelings of envy and self-pity.

I am really glad to know that your initial post was in fact an attempt to "indulge in a little hyperbole." Having said that, I find it more interesting that you now seem to have taken the role of victim simply because I and others do not share your insecurities in this matter. To suggest that we all need to admit our "Pathetic-Loser-ness" simply because we happen to be a "strip-club patron" is ridiculous -- you sound even more like a pathetic loser than your initial post reflected.

Book Guy, you actually wrote the following---"In theory, when a dude's being an idiot within general earshot, his idiocy isn't a threat to other dudes. Their need to get voluble about it is just as much an indication of their insecurities as of anything else."

Nothing could be farther from the truth. That statement is another example of childish immature thinking that runs rampant throughout your writings. Chandler is right on when he states, "I think you give yourself too much credit. When somebody says they don't share your feelings, that's not necessarily a sign that they do."

So to clarify for you, my reaction to your post is more like the reaction I have had to friends, colleagues I have known over the years that because of destructive behavior they engaged in or depressive thoughts they expressed required an intervention...lol. Like the alcoholic, the suicidal manic depressive, the drug addict-- your wallowing and self-absorbed rantings about such an inanity requires us "kindred spirits" to do a message board intervention with you. So sit down, take a deep breath and listen.

Rule 1-You cannot have everything you want in this life. 2- Crying about rule #1 is a waste of time and energy. 3- Writing an entire post on a message board about how you FEEL like a pathetic loser because a beautiful woman enters a room with someone other than yourself, does in fact, MAKE YOU A PATHETIC LOSER... sorry, I was never very good at this intervention thing...:)

I'm trying to stay away from female customers especially when they are with guys. They definitely seem to be making my strip club visits more interesting. I just hope they don't get me involved in a fight. I remember one female customer at one club many years ago snuck up behind me when I was tipping a dancer on stage. Then she invited me to her table laughing about something. When I asked her what was so funny, she said something about (don't know who) thought that me and her were having sex and were a couple. I was dumbfounded since I never saw her before and was wondering if she was going to get some guy angry at me. The dancer I tipped thought she was my girlfriend after she did that.

A few weeks ago at one club I noticed a couple sitting at one table. I noticed a nice looking stripper went over to talk to them. I was thinking just my luck. After a while, the dancer went in the back to get ready for her stage show. Then to my surprise the female customer came over and sat at my table. She tried to convince me to get a dance from the dancer. Told me something about she was fingering her pussy. I was thinking (really?), no one else saw that. Then she told me she recognized me because she was a dancer or former dancer at another club. When she first came over to my table and sat with me, I was slightly concerned about the guy she was with coming over to my table but he didn't look upset.

Then the other night, 2 girls in a club had a big fight going down on the ground right next to the table I was at only seconds earlier.

Hopefully a hot female customer will not get you in trouble. Count your blessings. I usually think the hotter they are, the higher maintenance and more trouble they are. Seems true for strippers at least.

I actually enjoy watching hot female customers especially if they put a little show on. Having a dancer encourage them to go topless while stage tipping is a great idea as far as I'm concerned.

I remember a long time ago my younger sister got a job where I worked at. I didn't really think she was hot or anything but it seemed like every single guy in the entire factory started asking me questions about her. I guess for all those guys, she was the hottest thing around. It got to be a bit annoying. I had to live with her and I thought of her as being demanding, bossy, and whiny when she didn't get her way. My younger brother joked "guess she needs some cheese" since she whined so much when she didn't get what she wanted.

So no, I don't always feel like that guy sitting with the hot girl is lucky and it certainly doesn't ruin my night.

You say they were from Philly? I think I know them, and "she" is actually a "he" in drag.

Book Guy, when I read a post like that of yours, I think you are a lot like me in one respect: you sometimes exist at two different levels at the same time. Like "I" can be in a club engaging in my fantsay (that it's real) while at the same time the other "me" is nearby watching and laughing. In other words, I think you like to poke fun at yourself, and by extension the rest of us. Granted the feelings you express may have some substance, but at the same time you recognize the childishness of those feelings or you wouldn't write about them the way that you do. I call it "letting the inner child out to play," and I think it's a harmless and enjoyable exercise now and then; I do it myself here sometimes (and am always amazed at the anger it sometimes provokes - obviously some pople are threatened by it.) I think your sense of humor and mine are quite similar, and quite off-beat. If only I had your vocabulary. Have I missed anything?

BG, on re-reading what seemed a throwaway line was really the hint we all missed; "Should hot women be denied entry to strip clubs so that I can maintain my sense of worth? "

I think the problem is you talk of your ego being crushed and your night ruined, not your fantasy (having the hottest girl) crushed and your stripclub trip ruined. I think most would have been more receptive to what I think we now understand you to be saying.

And yes, I posteed before I saw your message.

If hot female customers are ruining your night, then maybe we should bring in some 300 pound porkers in their place and see what happens then.

Good point, Dan. Should be a real boost to the ego.

Isn't it curious how the satirical intent of our replies escaped all you connoisseurs of satire? When I said to "grow up already", obviously I was making fun of my own immaturity in not feeling crushed and depressed at the sight of hot female customers. And I'm sure Lopaw was poking fun at her feeling soooo threatened by the complaints of a guy whose night she ruins by going clubbing. Yeah, we're all just a gang of Jonathan Swifts on this board. Some with thinner skins than others.

FONDL: you're probably right, I'm probably working on "two levels" in the way you describe. I guess I thought I was being satirical, but then I hit myself too close to home, so to speak. I certainly meant for the initial post to seem hyperbolic, but I also meant to discuss the issue at hand (hot female customers) at least a little bit seriously. Anyway, Swift out ...

BG: It's obvious to me by the quality of yor writing that you are certainly an educated man. You need to let that intellect do some work for you. You MUST have known that postings like the one that opened up this thread are bound to draw you some ire and contempt. Seems to me that you probably have a lot to offer a real girlfriend or wife, but these clubs are taking time away from that search.

I know I sound like a broken record but if ANYONE on these boards is looking for the perfect girlfriend or wife at a strip club, then that guy needs to get a good running start and slam their heads into a brick wall.

Actually, the ire and contempt surprised me. I guess I didn't realize that (a) my irony was not well-presented enough that it would be accurately read by some, or (b) my own hot-buttons (insecurity about being able to get a hot-enough partner, further insecurity about not getting what I want out of life, etc.) would lead me astray from the initial intent, of mild ironic discourse, into an unintended intent (heh, if I can say that, "unintended intent") of examining my own weaknesses.

Thanks for your points -- nice of you to say the positive things.

And you're definitely right, nobody should look for a perfect girlfriend or wife at a strip club. I hadn't been doing so. That's in part what made it hurt so much -- the inaccessibility of seeming perfection (which, of course, is an illusion), so close but so far.

Book Guy, in my case, I think you mistook ridicule for anger. Same treatment I would expect from a friend if I said something as outrageous as you did. Anyway, if you want a sincere discussion of hot female customers, ask away. I promise not to ridicule you even if you appear to be asking for it (at least on this topic - that's not a blanket promise.)

Hahaha ... uh oh ... :P ... now I have to put my money where my mouth is. Ugh ... .

OK, then. I guess I've opened Pandora's box. Hope it's honey in there.

Non-ironic statement: I find that I take a major blow to my self-esteem when I see men with women whom I deem attractive. Is this normal? Do I need to see a shrink, get therapy, just get over it? I also find, that I have throughout my life never MET (much less tried to seduce) women whom I deem attractive, aside from in pay-for-play situations such as prostitution or strip-clubbing. My looks-o-meter is not an unusually stringent one -- I find it enjoyable to be sexually involved with women who are not "perfect in every way", partly thanks to nature's inimitable desperation that all things male prefer to be screwing any thing female most of the time; but also partly thanks to the fact that I often enjoy something about a person other than "mere perfection", for example quirks of behavior or appearance that give her "character" or mark her to me as "real."

Then again (still no irony), I'm a rather picky sot. The women whom I have dated as "civilian" girlfriends have all been rather appealing to most men, in a generalized way -- in High School, for example, my first girlfriend went on to become homecoming queen, and at my school it happened at the time to be a competition based mostly on visual appearance, so that suggests to me that I prefer "extremes" of appearance in those terms. But who doesn't? Also, in typical strip-clubbing, I'll regularly reject a large number of women out-of-hand simply because of their looks, so nakedness and youthful nubility aren't always enough to impress me.

On the other hand, I've never been with "high maintenance" or "super model" types, and I don't find that kind of appearance appealing. I want a "girl next door" or even a "tom boy."

Now, all that having been said, I wonder if other men are similarly demanding. I've tried to characterize my drives and requirements (are they "requirements" or just "wants and needs" or what?), more for the sake of comparison to other men, than merely because I find my own navel fascinating. Though of course (I wax ironic) I do find my own navel fascinating. :)

Now, then, further without irony: what about hot female customers in a strip club? I go to strip clubs to get AWAY from life's constant implication that I have failed at many things, but mainly have failed at attracting unto myself at least one woman whom I deem "attractive enough" to merit being my girlfriend. I know, it's not a reasonable EXPECTATION that I should somehow have sexual fulfillment and boyfriend-girlfriend-relationship fulfillment merely because I WANT it. But nevertheless, deep inside our heads we feel the lack of it anyway, regardless of how much of a "right" to it we actually have. And so, attending a strip club feels to me like an escape from reality.

Then, when reality brings itself into my face like that, I'm disappointed. Somehow my whole balance gets upset. It's not like I threw a tantrum or anything ... I just finished my drink, tipped the girl on stage, went to the restroom, hung out for a little while longer, then left. My night wasn't "ruined" as the original post states; just turned along a different track. I didn't want very much to be in that club any longer, and as long as nothing else was keeping me there (as reported, the women were just an average to poor harem that night) then the hot female customer's presence was another negative in the mix.

What do you think? Is this a "normal" or a "problematic" reaction? Where should I look for ... solace? remediation? improvement? self-awareness? What kinds of steps should I take?

I know, this has been a major self-scrutinizing narcissism trip. I'm just using it as a kind of journal entry, and I invite any who are annoyed by it, to simply move on. Chandler was nice enough to say, "if you want a sincere discussion of hot female customers, ask away," so in the guise of asking away, I'm delivering my point of view and responses, and then requesting that he or others assess them and then further discuss the issues involved.

OK (dons flame-retardant suit) and how hot do YOU want YOUR partners to be? And how often do YOU attain that goal? And how bad do you feel about yourself if you DON'T? Hunh?

Book Guy, I think you're just lonely. And the reasons that you're lonely appear to include at least 2 things: (1)for some reason that escapes me you seem to lack confidence when around attractive women (and possibly other times as well, but we're talking about attractive women here) and (2) I think you're visual standards are probably too high.

We all like gorgeous women and all enjoy their company, providing the package includes some intelligence and a pleasant personality. But I've found that as you get to know people, their personalities tend become more important and their looks less so. By avoiding girls who you don't immediately find attractive you're denying yourself the chance to get to know women with whom you might eventually click. I think you need to become less picky.

Life is about compromise. You can't have it all. How many men end up married to the most gorgeous woman they've ever seen? There's an old saying that the perfect is the enemy of the good. Stop looking for perfection.

Book Guy: About the closest I can come to relating is the way it can bother me to see a stripper with her boyfriend in the club. It simply distracts me from the illusion if I've spent time with her, far more than just the abstract knowledge that she has a boyfriend. It breaks the spell for a moment. However, I don't linger over how it compares to my situation or let it ruin my whole night. And I hardly notice if it's a stripper I don't know - even less if it's a couple visiting the club as customers. Partly, because it could just as well be me in that position, but even when I've been having crappy luck with the ladies, it's just not in my nature to think that way. My instinct is to feel good when I see a pretty girl and appreciate my good luck in being there, and maybe to think that if I had the chance, I know I could make her a happy woman.

I think your reaction is problematic, not normal. It sounds to me like a symptom of depression. Practically everything seems to be a reflection on your sorry state, even things that should give you pleasure. I'm not sure what to advise. Yeah, get over it somehow, whether that's on your own initiative or with help. Frankly, it's more than you can expect to work out over an internet board. To what FONDL says, I'd add to take things in small steps. Don't be overwhelmed by how far you are from where you'd like to be. Start by smiling at pretty girls you pass on the street, and don't be discouraged when the first 10 turn away. Or start by smiling at homely women. You never know what it could lead to. And find something to keep busy and feel some tiny bit of connection with others, something outside yourself. (Sorry, I can't continue, I'm no good at this.)

Also, next time you see a hot female customer in a club, check her out totally. Ignore the dude she's with, think how glad you are to see a hot girl like her. Then forget about her, and get a lap dance and enjoy it, goddammit.

Book Guy, it just occurred to me that you should submit your original post to The Onion. With a little re-write, maybe a switch to the third person, I could absolutely see it in there. Headline: HOT FEMALE CUSTOMER RUINS NEW ORLEANS MAN'S NIGHT AT STRIP CLUB.

I have been at my favorite strip club for the last 3 days. So I missed out on all of this discussion. Just let me add that "I wouldn't fuck Pamela Anderson or a look a like with your dick.

Book Guy, one other thought. It sounds like the image you are projecting isn't attracting the kind of woman who you desire - maybe you need to change it. With your pipe and huge vocabularly (and obvious intellect) you probably come across as a real intellectual. Unfortunately for you, real babes aren't usually attracted to intellectuals. Maybe you need to lose the pipe, restrain your intellect, and present yourself as more of a regular guy.

I've known two real geniuses in my life, guys whose IQ was off the top of the scale. And both of them were total misfits, they coudn't relate to ordinary people. They both suffered from an ailment called "I'd rather be right than be happy" - they argued with everyone about everything, and they were very negative because nobody paid much attention to them, which got very tiresome after awhile. They both ended up being fairly unsuccessful in life. I'm wondering if you aren't somewhat like that.

FONDL: I don't see that Hi-IQ arrogance you describe in our friend BG. I've read many of his posts over the past few days and his writings have seem well thought-out and well-organized. I sense the same feelings of dissatisfaction in his own that you do however (and that is HARDLY rare). But finding answers or finding yourself in a strip-club is simply ridiculous. Our friend should spend more time in other endeavors if he's looking for the perfect soulmate with a killer body.

BG: How's this for the ultimate irony: Most of us over the age of 30 soon realize that even if you meet a Pamela Anderson look-alike and you fall madly in love with each other - she better have a heart, a soul and a brain to go with that killer body - Or you will soon dump her anyway THEN where will you be?)

There's a great Internet photo that circulates once in a while - An incredible looking Penthouse Pet woman is kneeling on a blanket in a bikini - and the caption reads something like "Somehow, some way, some one, is already sick of her shit".

Interesting smart replies. Thanks! Sorry for the premature departure into hyper-sensitivity or dis-irony ...

Anyway, a college-aged group of (not very hot) bachelorettes ruined my night at the same club last night. In they tromped, har har snort har, isn't it LAME and FUNNY and WEIRD that we're in a strip club, har snort har har, look there's a DIRTY OLD MAN, har, look there's a NAKED woman oh my GAAAAWWWWWWWD blah fucking blah. Fatties every one of them, smugly self-satisfied, with U of Kansas sweatshirts. Just the tourists New Orleans hates.

99, I don't see arrogance either, not in BG and not in the other two guys I described. Have you ever been in a social situation where someone is telling a story or trying to explain something and you suddenly realize that you know more about what he's talking about than he does? And he's got it all wrong? Do you jump in and straighten him out or do you just igmpre it and move on? I think most people with any social skills do the latter. But these guys could never do that. That's not arrogance, it's simply a lack of social skills.

FONDL: actually, I do understand the sort of person you're describing (the one who lacks social skills, and would jump in and "correct" and argue, rather than be polite or enjoyable company). But I'm pretty sure I'm not TOO much like that. I'll bet we ALL are, at some time or another, on one subject or another. But mostly, I don't have any more of that disease than anyone else does, I'm guessing.

I think what I do have, is just a long long string of loneliness, and a lot of life circumstances that end up somehow "conspiring" (uh oh, THAT language is dangerously self-victimizing) toward my own failures with women. And jobs. I don't KNOW what I did "wrong" to never meet women who physically appeal to me. I see them, and I certainly interact with them at strip clubs, so I know they exist on this planet. I just have never been in a walk of life where I interact with them in the civilian world. There are the odd few who cross my path -- a hottie sales girl, a younger student in one of my classes -- but mostly, I find the social gulf too great to cross.

I do try to cross social gulfs, sometimes, but I'm not a genius at it. Those social skills, again. I'm not MISERABLE at these types of skills, I'm just not BRILLIANT. It seems to me it takes SOOOO much cajolery and trickery to get involved with a certain set of "frivolous" humans, and to somehow cut through the crap to get down to normal interaction. When I'm finally in a community of people with whom I have the type of interaction that would allow for asking women out and maybe getting a "yes" response (or hooking up in any of a number of other ways), I'm also in a community of people that doesn't seem to include hot women. I don't know why. It doesn't make sense. There OUGHT to be hot women randomly distributed in lots of places -- choirs (which I participate in) ought to have some; law school (where I audit classes) out to have some; soccer leagues (where I play) ought to have some. But they're younger, or not coming to the social mixer afterwards, or already taken, or, most often, just soooo busy "defending themselves" from people (they're hot women, after all, they have to fend off advances all the time) that I never manage to get through their buffer zone.

It's about some kind of "bluster" that I don't have. I notice that the women I tend to find attractive, are the women whom many other men tend to find attractive, and I notice that these women tend to interact with very very abusive males -- men who brow-beat them psychologically or physically. Often, more power to 'em!, the women are smart enough to leave those men behind. But then, scarred as they are by experiences at the hands of hyper-masculine abusers, these hyper-feminine sweethearts are actually all the MORE afraid of interacting with guys like me. And here we are, nice guys finishing last, through no fault of our own. Either be less nice (change your own identity) -- in which case, it's pretty obvious that you're putting on an act, and it's therefore less likely to work, and certainly much less likely to feel genuine; or, be yourself (don't change your identity) -- in which case, you're doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result.

Well, I didn't really think through all this crap before I wrote it. I certainly didn't have these specific quasi-philosophical revelations and adumbrations at the moment that I chose to get up and leave the club "because" I saw a woman who represents what I feel I can't have but badly want. I used to LOVE the look of a hot woman, and I reveled in a life that gave me the opportunity to enjoy visually all that heterosexuality could offer! (That's part of what attracted me to clubs in the first place.) Now I just curse the fact that I have eyes. I'm not so crazy as to wish to spoon them out onto a plate, don't worry, I'm not around the bend quite yet. But it's a fair metaphor.

I do think people are pretty smart in their perceptions in this thread. A lot of it is quite insightful, and I'm going to reread many of the responses just to get an idea of "where you're coming from" if you differ with me or if you have read my experiences and seem to see something novel in them, something that might be enlightening to me. It's all rather ... baffling. I don't understand how such a large crowd of otherwise normal males can STAND the concept of receiving such a small little negligible smattering of what I have come to understand is the BARE MINIMUM human experience to make life fulfilling. All those dudes are doing without, just like me; but they aren't half as unhappy about it as I am. How do they DO that? And, really, I don't want to learn to be, like them, happily tolerant of a bad situation. Really, I want to learn to change my situation to a better one. I want my own hottie(s).

BG-- I can certainly understand your confusion and frustration in not getting what you seek. I reread this entire thread and many have touched on most of the salient points worth making. However, a couple of things worth considering.

1) In your original post, you lamented the fact that a "Pamela Anderson" type( you called her a "smokin-hot woman" and you "loved her appearance")was the girlfriend of the guy she entered the club with and it sent you into a depression and ruined your night.You opined that because she was there with someone other than you points out that you are a "pathetic loser"....Ok, a little over the top but we get your point.

2)You then move on in a later post to state "I've never been with "high maintenance" or "super model" types, and I don't find that kind of appearance appealing. I want a "girl next door" or even a "tom boy." Well, I've heard Pamela Anderson refered to in a lot of ways but never as "the girl next door type or even a tom-boy."

So which is it? Are you looking for Pam or a tom-boy? It's no wonder your confused...lol.

Finally, you speak of appearance as though it is the only and/or overriding factor when considering a potential partner/girlfriend? Your posts are riddled with constant references to your inability to get the proverbial good looking/hot women, not as fuck buddies or friends but as GIRLFRIENDS. Please tell me that you are mature enough to recognize that a relationship based on physical appearance alone is not your idea of the perfect match. Successful "gf/bf or marriages based on nothing more than how she looks are surely doomed to fail.

If it's a girlfriend you want, get out of the stripclubs. You can lap with a stripper, BS with a stripper, hangout with a stripper, fondle a stripper and even fuck a stripper. If you think you're frustrated now, start seriously dating a stripper. Looks are not the end all be all you seem to be so fixated on. You'd better hope this is true because my guess is you're not the best looking guy on this board and if women are as shallow about relationship material as you are, then you don't have a prayer.

Oh yeah, I see how it looks like it contradicts. The "Pam Anderson" type I'm thinking of IS a girl-next-door look, natural and breezy, not plastic. I guess Ms. Anderson is usually equated with plastic, sorry, bad example. It's the "California" thing, to me. Nice small body, fit, tanned, windswept blonde hair, sun dress, kind of like someone who has just run around at the beach all day. Not the fake-tit-excess-make-up queen, sorry.

And yes, I'm mature enough to recognize that a relationship based on physical appearance alone is not really viable. I didn't ever say I ONLY wanted the woman to be physically attractive. This comes up a lot, in my life. I say, "I'm interested in a certain level of physical appearance," and somehow people read me as having said, "I'm ONLY interested in a certain level of physical appearance." Well, no, I didn't say that. It's just, that a certain level of physical appearance is, for me, a minimum, a standard, a requirement. I'd also like intelligence, sense of humor, compatibility, emotional balance, kindness, etc. I've in fact had those things, and others, in many girlfriends. Just not, also coupled with a certain level of physical appearance.

I do sometimes detect, in respondents who insist on reminding me about that issue, a degree of political correctness. It's never really JUST about reminding me that his or her standards are "better" for me than my own might be (never mind that my standards are reworded, as above, with the "only" inserted against my will). It's also quite often also about feeling a bit high and mighty. For example, "my guess is you're not the best looking guy on this board" has literally no foundation in evidence at all. There's no evidence for or against that statement, and it's not germane to the discussion, but it is an opportunity to cast a bit of unrelated, and probably unproductive, invective. (By the way, I'm not unhappy with my looks. I don't see that this is an issue.)

So, for me, when I get into these discussions and see that at least one respondent is getting "high and mighty" about the concept of looks as "shallow," I suspect he or she has a bit of pride at stake. Pride in himself or herself. We're strip-club patrons; we're interested in looks; there's nothing wrong with that. Political correctness about what YOU think other people OUGHT to do, be damned.

But if that's not Driver01's point of view (he hasn't happened to have written enough to know, one way or the other) I think he can certainly understand why I'd be frustrated with someone who DOES have that point of view. I didn't say, "looks alone count." I said, "I am seeking looks" and this is meant to imply, "among many other things, and only because it's the looks quotient that has consistently been lacking." Better yet: IF ONLY the looks were good enough, then I'd FINALLY be free to judge on the basis of more legitimate criteria. But I'm not, because ... well ... the looks haven't ever been good enough for me to care. If she were hot, then I'd like to know whether or not she's hot and friendly and potentially a girlfriend. If she's ugly to the degree that I cannot fathom sexing her or wooing her or having lust for her, then I only care whether she's friendly in terms of friendship, not girlfriendness, because she's not potentially a girlfriend.

And of course, none of us is in a strip club to get a girlfriend. Idiotic plan. But our responses there bear relation to our "real world" experiences, because we can't any of us change skins when we walk into the club. We're still the same people. The fantasy is only so pervasive and effective, and for any of a variety of reasons it might be subverted. On this one occasion I had an odd experience of subversion which, to me, merited investigation.

This is too absurd. How did we get from "Book Guy's Ruined Night" (a satire, supposedly) to "Book Guy Critiques Your Makeover Suggestions"? Isn't this about the 20th thread over the past year that has morphed from a general discussion to a self-help seminar for transforming Book Guy into a contented hottie magnet?

Oh well, if you can't beat 'em...

Book Guy, you're putting the cart way the hell before the horse in two ways. First, you say you wouldn't feel sad when you see a hot female customer if only you had a hot girlfriend. This is bullshit. Your sadness is self pity, and you need to confront it directly. It won't take care of itself once you land a hot girlfriend. You need to change your attitude, not your circumstances. Until then, it's not likely that you will acquire the object of your desires, but if somehow you did, I guarantee it wouldn't make you feel any less sorry for yourself without a change of attitude.

Second, forget about this constant longing for some unspecified woman who fits the bill for you. Start taking more interest in individual women. You keep saying you never meet any women who meet your standards. This is bullshit. You have an unrealistic picture of what kind of woman you require. You don't chase any real women, you chase an ideal, because you want to be a guy who has a hot girlfriend. It doesn't work that way. Leave all this self absorption behind, start learning what real women have going that makes them desirable, and get busy wooing some. Maybe after doing that, you'll luck across a real hot thing, but by then it probably won't be such a big issue for you.

BG, "It seems to me it takes SOOOO much cajolery and trickery to get involved with a certain set of "frivolous" humans, and to somehow cut through the crap to get down to normal interaction. When I'm finally in a community of people with whom I have the type of interaction that would allow for asking women out and maybe getting a "yes" response (or hooking up in any of a number of other ways), I'm also in a community of people that doesn't seem to include hot women. I don't know why. It doesn't make sense. "

It seems to me FONDL might have nailed you better than you know. You seem to be saying, in a sense, that you are better than these "frivilous" people, and that you need to lower yourself to trickery to involve yourself in what you consider normal relations. This seems rather contradictory. It also seems you have a skewed view of human relations. I'm not sure what to think at this point.

I have a slightly different take on this. About a dozen years ago I had a major mid-life crisis, I came to the realization that my life wasn't ever going to turn out the way I had hoped, that I was never going to accomplish some of my most important goals. That realization sent me into severe depression. I'm wondering if something similar isn't happening to Book Guy.

I did a lot of research and came up with some ideas that helped me significantly. Here are a few of them.

(1) My beliefs - my goals, values, opinions, standards, etc. - determine who I am and what my life is like. They're what got me to where I am today. If my beliefs aren't working for me, if I want to go somewhere else, I need to change my beliefs. If I'm not willing to re-examine my beliefs, then I'd rather be right than be happy.

In my case I had to reject soeiety's goals, they don't work for me. I had to find out what makes me happy, not what pleases others. I had to resist society's pressures to conform and find my own truths.

(2) I need to take responsibility for my own life. I'm the creator of my life. Everything in my life is there because I chose it. I'm responsible for the result. Me, no one else. If I'm unhappy with the result of my choices, I need to make different ones.

(3) One of the most important secrets to happiness is to live in a state of gratitude. I need to focus on what's good in my life, not what's bad. And I'm one of the luckiest people alive, there are far more good things than bad. I now start every day by taking a long walk and giving thanks. And the feeling of gratitude lasts all day long.

(4) Nothing in life has any meaning except the meaning I choose to give it, so I try to choose meanings that empower me. About 2 weeks ago I had something happen that was extremely upsetting, and I've been steaming about it ever since. Yesterday I found out that I had totally misread the situation, and that what happened was actually very positive. We never know all the facts, we always have to make some assumptions. Make assumptions that are good for you.

(5) Frustration is the mind's unwillingness to accept what is. I've always had trouble dealing with frustration, it's been a major negative factor in my life. Since I read that statement I've been much better at dealing with frustration.

(6) Be active. One of the first things I did to fight my depression was to become a gym rat. I had always worked out a lot but I became a fanatic about it and it really helped. It's hard to feel depressed when you're sweating your ass off. And the result makes me feel much better about myself.

(7) Give something back. There is no better food for the soul than to help others. Nothing makes me feel better about myself than that. Get involved in some charity event. It's also a good way to meet other people, many of whom are chicks.

(8) Be positive. Positive people have more fun. And they're more popular. Hold your head up, put a smile on your face and a skip in your step. Say hello to everyone. Avoid negative influences (I never watch TV news anymore - it's all negative.)

It may sound silly but these are some of the changes I've made in my life. And what a huge difference it has made.

99Intrepid: You pointed out something that I had intended to point out, as I was reading this thread - what was it, two hours ago? (geesh, a definite long winded thread, for sure)

Anyhow, I'd read a similar quote to the quote that you posted, a few years ago on a bathroom stall. It's THE most profound that I've ever read in the bathroom... It said "no matter how beautiful she is, somewhere there is a guy that is sick of her shit"

I'm sure it's absolutely true, and knowing that helps ME deal with my jealousies when I see a hot girl with a guy that looks like he doesn't deserve her.

Yeah, I do try to remember that. Some dude DIVORCED Pam Anderson, for example (since she's already come up in this thread).

FONDL,
Great points. Absolutely true on all counts. I'm a bit younger than you (I'm 26), but I had a similar revelation a couple years back and my life has done nothing but improve since.

Book Guy,
You've gotten some wonderful, insightful advice in this thread. The one thing that hasn't been addressed yet, is the specifics. How to talk to a female, what to say, do, etc. I'm going to make a recommendation here. There is an excellent book, that addresses exactly this topic. It is M.A.C.K. Tactics by Rob Wiser and Christopher Curtis. I know, I hate the title too. Just disregard it and read the book, it has some great advice that you can apply to almost all areas of your life.

I also agree with with what you said about the importance of looks. The way someone looks absolutely plays a role, a fairly large role, in whether or not one is attracted to them. I have pretty high standards myself. My personal rule is that for me to spend significant, personal time with a female, they must stimulate me either mentally or physically. I have dated a few strippers and I'm close friends with a few others. It is absolutely possible to find a beautiful woman with above average intelligence working at a strip club. It just isn't likely. I've been going to my local club pretty much weekly for the last year or so and have only found 4 dancers with above average intelligence. There have been maybe 3 more that were sweet, sincere and pretty. There have been probably 30-40 more that were pretty, but not at all desirable as a girlfriend. I guess my point is, I'm not the best looking guy in the world, I don't have much money, but I still have these fairly high standards and I still get dates on a pretty regular basis, from some seemingly very unattainable women. If I can do it, so can you. (Wow, could I be more cliched?) Ok, I'm done.

Haha, yeah, but it's a good cliche'. :) Thanks for your points, Ummyeah. And of course to FONDL for his 8-point insight into midlife crisis.

Yeah, I'm in the midst of crisis. It's been going on since I was 17. I'm 41 now. :P This is the thing ... but I won't go into it. :)

I don't want to argue the importance or unimportance of looks. If you could manage to UTTERLY convince me, through various intelligent discussion points, that caring about a woman's looks was simply going to harm my life irremediably, and I GENUINEY believed you, it wouldn't make one whit of difference. I CAN'T CHANGE MY BIOLOGY.

I've actually tried to date girls I didn't find physically "good enough." I didn't MEAN to judge them negatively -- I just looked, had an "automatic" response, and that's what my judgment was. But I was a damn "nice guy" and thought, "Lots of well-meaning people say that looks shouldn't count. So, I'm going to give this girl a chance." And, ya know what? IT DON'T WORK. If I don't have the hots for her, no amount of her being nice to small animals is going to MAKE me have the hots for her. The whole PREMISE of the movie "Shallow Hal" (that he will love her for "who she is" regardless of whether he thinks she's skinny or fat) isn't lost on me; but it's also IMPOSSIBLE TO ENACT. You can't just "snap your fingers" and get a boner for Rosie O'Donnell, and not get one for Uma Thurman. Even if it turns out the Rosie-type is emotionally very compatible with yourself.

On top of that, I think, people know this and behave like this all the time. Those of us who talk talk talk about how we "should" look at appearance less, are missing me on two points. First, I don't ADVOCATE the use of appearance as a guide to such facets as intelligence, strength, commitment, emotional balance. I don't think that a good-looking woman is necessarily a nice, or friendly, or smart woman, and I never said i did. Second, I don't think we can just "abandon" our eyeballs. Unless I go blind, I'll know what my potential partners look like. I don't intend to go blind any time soon. In fact, I kind of LIKE knowing that there are attractive women in the world whom I might date; it's one of life's rewards, to look at a girl and know she wants you to be looking at her because soon enough you'll be FUCKING THE SHIT OUT OF HER. :)

But FONDL's advice is better. Especially the point of view about gratitude -- that's likely the cornerstone of the entire epic. I don't know if I'm really going through a crisis here, or if it's just an ongoing facet of my entire existence. The radical upturn that my self-esteem took when that one woman walked into the club, that instigated the initial (ill-advised?) post in this thread, was a genuine surprise to me. I can usually screw my courage to the sticking place a lot more forcibly than I was able, at that occasion.

I recently read somewhere, that a man who shies away from approaching attractive women, is doing it because he thinks there's something wrong with himself. He's basically thinking, "Even though I don't know you, I know that I consider you a reward. And I know that I think of myself as not deserving of life's rewards." In fact, the point that he does NOT know the woman before he rejects her from his pool of potential candidates (by getting scared, resentful, jealous) is part of the major thought there. If he DID know her, then he'd be interacting. If he rejects / runs away BEFORE getting to know her, then he's not saying anything at all about HER, it's all about HIM. It's about his own belief that HE hasn't earned the big bucks. He thinks he deserves to be low on the totem pole of life.

I don't know why I act like that. I don't know, exactly, whether I think I "deserve" to get no attractive women, or whether I think life "ought" to reward me more than I'm getting but I just don't know HOW to get those rewards. I've heard of the "MACK Tactics" book (I've read books that are better reviewed by the seduction and seduction-education community, though not that one), and I bet I know a lot about what they're going to say. Not that I reject it out of hand, but I have to admit, many times the advice falls about me like leaves off a tree. I don't know what to DO with it. "Make eye contact" or "ask out seven women a week for six weeks" has been done by me, but nothing's changed yet except the fact that I have a lot of appointments in my datebook.

Wonder what kind of weird bird I really am ... hmm ...

This is an interesting thread in that it covers a lot of the dynamics as to why we hit strip clubs in the first place and how we feel about them in general.

1. We're all there to look at babes (obviously) - The hotter the better. 2. We're all loooking for as much action with said-bases as we can get (while acknowleging we all have different levels of how far we want to go - The redoubtable Shadowcat comes to mind - Shadowcat may be the modern-day version of Johnny Holmes) 3. For others it's the thrill of variety and seeing so many different types of women in one confined space, with the possibility of mixing it up with them (YEAH - THAT'S ME) and 4. For others it may be a search for a real-life partner in a make-believe world (which BG may subconsciously be doing).

Regardless of who we are and why we are there, generally speaking we all go to these clubs to fill in something we want and is probably missing from our lives.

Keep swinging away BG - My feeling is that eventually you'll find the right blend of looks and soul you seek - but probably not in the local tit-bar.

Last point - those KC State broads would ruin ANYONES night. So anyone who wants to take a shot at BG better just Back Off because I totally agree with him!!

I've read most of the "seduction" material out there too. I'll tell ya, it didn't work for me. Mack Tactics did. Its advice actually applies more to one's interactions with people in general, it is just written with the slant of interacting with women. Anyway, I'm not going to belabor the point. I'll just encourage you to go ahead and give it a shot.

I'll throw out one more point. I would actually suggest you see a psychiatrist. This is not to say that I think you're crazy or can't handle life, blah, blah, blah. I simply think that it would increase the quality of your life if you did. I believe you'll be ok if you never go, but I have a feeling you'll be even better if you do. I'd almost guarantee that you'll actually enjoy it, as well as the therapist. You seem to possess the three qualities that are required to effectively help someone, intelligence, insight and motivation. It's my personal opinion that everyone should see a therapist for at least a little bit at some point in their life. I know mine was able to bring clarity to some things that I felt, but had been unable to put into words. I don't know, take it or leave it, but you might seriously think about it.

Ummyeah, thanks for the compliments, I think your advice is excellent too. What I find especially interesting about it is that I think in some ways a strip club can be similar to a visit to a therapist if you find the right girl, and I think that's one of the things that some guys like about strip clubs. My ATF was going through some depression too when we met, and we used to jokingly refer to each other as our mutual therapists. In fact she helped me enormously - many of the thoughts that I listed above came from her or from reading material that she suggested - she would strongly agree with every one of the 8 points that I listed, we've talked about every one of them at length. She's intelligent, well read, spiritual, and sympathetic. I was very lucky to have met her when I did.

Book Guy, I agree with you that living in a state of gratitude is key. What amazes me is the amount of whining that you hear in our society. We're the wealthiest society in the history of the planet and yet all you hear are complaints about all the problems that people have. Puzzling.

Maybe we whine because we have the time to. People don't LIKE to have to work, but our demeanors get a lot better when we HAVE to. I recall the end-notes of Faulkner's "The Sound and the Fury" in which he details hundreds of characters and their backgrounds. For Dilsey and Frony, who are the black "hired help" servants, "They endured." Period end of story. The point is stunning -- we've heard page after page about them, but Faulkner knows they aren't FREE to have existential crises. They get up every morning to make mater's biscuits instead.

Ummyeah, I get you on the "MACK" book. I didn't realize you were familiar with the seduction community; from that context, I'll certainly see what it has to offer that I haven't already gotten through more standard fare.

I did enjoy therapy. I didn't REALLY have it -- I contacted a telephone career counselor from my old college, since I'm perpetually in income flux (read: unemployed or I HATE my work). Our conversations were productive, not very eye-opening, but since they were sort of milestones in my day / week / month, I ended up acting on them and the advice in them whereas if I'd just "thought up" something to do and hadn't interacted with him, I probably wouldn't ever have done it. We're still at it, the counselor and I. We don't get as much done from his agenda as he'd like, I suspect, but that's just because I won't shut the fuck up. :P

One other point: some of us have the "instinct" to complain in written web-board form, when we might not complain or whine very much in the rest of our lives. Some people have journals, some have wet-sop friends, some have TUSCL. :P

One other thought that I should have added to my "list of 8" - it's essential to have a passion about something. Doesn't much matter what it is (althought drugs or dirnking probably aren't a good idea), you just need a reason to be excited about getting out of bed in the morning, something you really get excited about, something that makes you want to live. If you don't have one, develop one, it can be a life saver. End of sermon.