Strippers and Mental Health

Poor August; so hot and my current avatar.

There has always been a stigma associated with adult work. The only difference now is that we have raised a generation of Millennials who are self-entitled and less emotionally equipped to deal with this reality.

It doesn't help that many of these girls are coming out the back-end of their careers both broke and stigmatized since the money is not what it used to be. But I'd also add that many of them also don't learn to properly capitalize on their notoriety while it's still fresh, which I' also partially attribute to the emotional softness of their generation. These girls just don't mature emotionally as quickly as they used to, yet their careers are now shorter than ever.

There's one club I go to where I've made a friend.

She's spectacular on the pole because she's had gymnastic training. She's a great dancer. She's trying to become a performance artist (think Cirque du Soleil).

We never do dances anymore. In fact, we only did one. I'll tip her for the time she spends with me, but not nearly as much as she would make hustling dances during the time we spend.

When I go to this club, if she's there and sees me, we'll usually talk for 30-45 minutes. We both deal with anxiety and we spend a lot of time talking through the way other people don't get that and how they make our lives difficult accordingly.

We don't do dances anymore because it's more of a mental kinship now. It's not that I'm not attracted to her; if anything, I'm more attracted to her now that I know her better and how she overcomes her issues to be so damn talented. But dances, at this point, would feel like me just taking what I want from her, not actually valuing her, her talents and what we've built as friends. She knows my type and will even tell me if my other favorite dancers are at the club that night when I message her to say I'm making a visit. The conversation seems to have value to her, too, as she even made the point to spend the time one night after saying she was broke due to the chance to take some special performing classes and need to make money. She still sat with me, though, and explained another situation she dealt with. I tell her, if she needs to make money, she should go do that. She still sits with me, though.

I think the reason we bonded is because I really make the point to treat her, and dancers in general, as a person, not just someone I'm paying for a service from. I don't see that from a lot of other customers. These ladies provide a service, and a damn good one. I hate, truly hate and despise, that it's stigmatized by many.

Our messed up attitude toward sex in the western world is F'd up. It's something we're wired to want, yet we shame the people who actually provide it. And the people who get the furthest in life seem to be the ones who privately seek it, then publicly shame the people who they themselves are in private. It's no wonder so many of these girls feel used.

I do what I can. I try to support the ones I know and like, both financially and mentally. I urge the rest of you to remember: These folks are people, too. It's fine to want them to help you get off. Just be nice about it.

The only thing I don’t understand is why you don’t get dances from her if you find her attractive.

Being “friends” with a stripper I find hot is not going to stop me from buying dances from her and instead giving her cash for conversation.

I don't think she finds me attractive. She's kind of a free-spirit, I'm more buttoned-down corporate type. We're both geeky, but in different ways. We talk about her "partners." They don't sound like me.

If I got dances for my own gratification, that would probably violate the trust. And if she insisted on me getting dances for me to talk to her, I probably wouldn't keep talking to her.

To each their own I guess.

The strip club is not a place to go looking for meaningful relationships with strippers.

I appreciate my CF and treat her well. We talk, we have some drinks and then we go to the back for some dances. That’s what the strip club is for and that is the service strippers provide.

To bring the conversation back to the topic, a lot of guys treat ladies who do this like crap. I was at a club once where a group of guys took pleasure in shouting in girls faces, "Nope!" when they asked for tips. It's garbage.

A lot of women who do this are already a little fragile. The least we can do is know that and be good customers.

That doesn't mean keeling over and handing every girl all your money. It doesn't mean spending on dancers you don't like. It doesn't mean tolerating rude dancers or ROBs.

But, it does mean being polite to those we don't get service from. It means respecting the dancer's personal boundaries. Yes, your and her boundaries may be beyond the club's, but her's are the end-all. And it does mean remembering they're humans and want a little respect, not just body parts there to grind on you and be disposed.

If you don't, these fragile women may break, as some of these pornstars did. I don't want that onus on me.

I didn't find the dancer I befriended unattractive, but she also wasn't in my "OMG so hot want a dance so bad" file. As such, I was willing to watch and listen to her after our introduction. As such, we bonded. She's interesting to me in that she thinks differently and is highly motivated to be successful. But she also is very hard on herself and struggles with people that don't "get" her.

I can see how she can become a great performance artist in time. I can also see how she and her struggles could lead to bad things. I want to say I helped, not hurt. I'd like to see us all be more that way, both with our ATFs and all people we encounter, both in and out of the club.

AJ, those were wonderful PSA moments bro. Seriously now, where's that slow clap audio file when we need it. 😉

I think you're preaching to the choir here though. You won't find a bigger collection of ultra sensitive dudes yearning for stripper approval on any site anywhere. And for the ones who do mistreat strippers anyway, what you did was akin to walking up to a group of guys smoking outside and telling them that it's bad for them, as if they didn't know already.

If I may make a suggestion, your time might be better spent pondering why you are still hanging around with a chick who doesn't like you as a potential BF and who you have no interest in buying dances from. The fact that she's sweet is irrelevant; at this point you're just spinning your wheels with no good outcome in sight.

Anyway, just a few random thoughts fwiw.

Takes fewer muscles to smile than to frown. Be fewer suicides if everyone even half tried being half nice to 'no thanks, Miss' as well as your 'favorites'; in life or bizarro life.

She seeks me out moreso than I seek her when I go to the club. I don't run to find her. I find a seat and, if she sees me, she comes to me. I don't mind.

Also, she's legitimately an interesting person. She does most of the talking when we hang out. Her training rituals are intense and very different and I'm curious about them and her approach to showmanship. The conversation is stimulating. The people in her life are different and analyzing her, and their, thinking is actually kind of fun. I don't mind.

I say this as the creator of the "Who'd You Rather" bracket: We shouldn't live our lives saying people are only good to us if they want to have sex with us and we want to have sex with them. That part is fun, yes. Fun enough to have a bracket about. But it's possible to meet people who you enjoy having in your life for other reasons.

She doesn't see me as "partner" material. But she likes talking to me and I like talking to her. If we both are getting enjoyment from it, I don't think anything's wrong.

I would venture to say these folks in adult/sex work already have/had issues coming-in; adult-work at most is usually more of a symptom than the actual problem - i.e. in general I doubt their life was A-OK b/f adult/sex work then went to crap b/c of the adult/sex work.

I assume there is a lot of drug and alcohol use/abuse in the porn/adult/sex work but at the end of the day adults are responsible for their lives/actions and if one can't handle a certain environment then they need to seek a different environment.

Well, one of the issues cited in the article is that porn stars wanting out of porn often have trouble getting or keeping jobs in non adult industries, even if they are completely clean and fully qualified.

Because Google.

I think the spectacle is blowing this up more than the data. In any guilt ridden work you’ll find a higher than normal suicide rate, and the sample size from porn actors is not representative of other industries. What about the suicide rate of priests and their altar boys from highly abusive clergies? How about the rates from detectives who work with sexual predators and murderers? Single drug addicted parents who are forced to give up custody of their children?

I believe I can make a case or point on conjecture with just about any subset of our culture. I don’t like to spend petty energy thinking about why people do the things they do. It’s their choice and as long as their choices don’t affect me, I could care less. Regardless, I still have compassion for the loved ones of those who pass. Not a fond ending to remember them by.

Suicide rate among doctors, dentists, financial services workers and lawyers is also very high.

I sort of agree with @Meatheat about the small sample size. The profession with the highest suicide rate is MD, probably due to long hours and the stress.

Lol. Posted at same time as Ski

I can't imagine some of the pain and anguish doctors see, too. Mental and physical. Imagine being the one who has to say "You have cancer." Ugh.

Guilt-ridden work. The fact we call it that is, in and of itself, pretty sad.

Like the article says, im sure it is hard for porn stars to get out of the biz due to how public their jobs are as well as society’s stigmatization. Strippers can stay a little more under the radar but still often promote themselves on insta or other platforms of their choice.

So while I think societal stigmatization is wrong and hypocritical, it exists, and long has. And these ladies knew that going into the biz. Thus I’m guessing the biz both attracts ladies who may have issues coming in but also makes those issues bigger than they might otherwise be.

But that’s just a guess. It’s also possible that mental health and addiction issues are not higher among sex workers. I think that they are but maybe that’s just because I *think* that’s the case so I’m more prone to notice it. Idk. For instance suicides happen across the spectrum of society and they are all obviously tragic and heartbreaking. But there would need to be a comparison of suicide and addiction rates between ladies in the biz and ladies not in the biz to really know. The article didn’t speak to that as far as I saw.

===> "Well, one of the issues cited in the article is that porn stars wanting out of porn often have trouble getting or keeping jobs in non adult industries, even if they are completely clean and fully qualified."

Not surprising unfortunately. Most companies are inherently risk-averse. Hiring a former porn star carries with it a lot of reputation risk and a variety of possible HR nightmares. As bad as I feel for these girls, I can also see it from the perspective of HR managers.

"... one of the issues cited in the article is that porn stars wanting out of porn often have trouble getting or keeping jobs in non adult industries ..."

IDK - I wouldn't think it'd be that dire - sure perhaps they may not be able to start-out at a Fortune-500 company (or perhaps they could); but they can start out somewhere and build up a bit of a resume - plus; porn is not illegal nor a crime; one would assume getting fired or not being hired solely on that may be a case of discrimination that one would think could be won in court - I think those in porn that are able and willing can transition into civilian work; those that can't seems it's often b/c they don't have the skills or perhaps the make-up to work in corporate-America which may be what drove them into porn work in the first place.

I've always wondered just how the job affects these dancers mentally. I remember when I used to visit stripperweb there was a thread stickied to the top of the forum titled "protecting your mental health and well being". I never read it but I can just imagine that being groped by strangers for money day in and day out has to take a toll on even the hardest girl.

Maybe I'll go back and read the thread. But knowing the tone on that site, it'll just be posts from girls who say they're fine because they give air dances all day and make a thousand per night.

A lot of dancers and probably porn stars do have some problems and yeah I do think there are a lot of people who both desire and look down on them.

I’ve met some I like and some I don’t. I just recently posted something about one I knew who was going through some stuff.

I think all we can do is try to be nice and treat them with respect. I know we’re usually not looking for a relationship and they don’t want it but we when we’re not assholes I’m sure it reduces any mental toll it takes on them.

I also know that it’s not just the job. Some of them have problems that may make it difficult for them to do well to in a more traditional field. Stripping can be forgiving to someone who is unreliable, has substance abuse problems, or is a bit flaky. That doesn’t apply to everyone but it applies to plenty.

@Papi: There is a small list of things that companies cannot use to "discriminate" against a potential hire. Anything else is fair game and that most certainly includes a porn star past.

"... I've always wondered just how the job affects these dancers mentally ..."

Lots of jobs affect people mentally - many people are under a lot of stress due to their job and being over-worked - may not exactly be an apples-to-apples comparison but many people have jobs that affect them mentally.

Yeah but come on. This is different. Certain jobs affect your mental way more than others. For instance, I always felt that Johnnie Cochran's early death was directly due to the fact that he knew that OJ Simpson was guilty as hell. He helped a murderer get off and that guilt carried him to an early grave. Much like I bet a ton of defense lawyers have to deal with.

Dancers make more money by allowing strangers to touch some of their most intimate body parts. Take away the money and that's called assault. And assault victims are usually traumatized for a long while because of just one occurence. Meanwhile dancers do this daily. Sure they get paid for it and so the compensation is supposed to equal consent. But still, it's gotta be psychologically challenging. Way more so than most vanilla jobs out there.

"... Certain jobs affect your mental way more than others ... Dancers make more money by allowing strangers to touch some of their most intimate body parts. Take away the money and that's called assault. And assault victims are usually traumatized for a long while because of just one occurence ..."


I agree that not all jobs are the same and why I mentioned it's not necessarily apples-to-apples but what I mentioned about other jobs still applies - I've known a good # of people whom have had nervous breakdowns from the stress of college and/or certain-jobs.

w.r.t. the assault statement - yes and no IMO - it's not as if they are being beaten w/ a baseball bat by custies - I mean if they go on a date w/ a guy they like the guy will be groping her (or trying to) just the same and she'll either allow it or not - I agree it may not be comfortable for many of them to be groped but neither is the doctor pulling a 24-hour shift on his feet in an emergency room - some girls can handle the groping - many can't - and for some they may be free-spirits that enjoy it or at least is not a big-deal for them - every job has its pros and cons and seems many sex-workers that stick to it decide for themselves the pros outweigh the cons just like many civilians grunt it out in an office for 40 years and it's not b/c they necessarily love it.

I always try to keep it lighthearted and while I wouldn’t expect it, if they did confide it me it would be received well by me. Might be one of the reasons they go to drugs.

I wish I had moved on sooner from my first CF. In hindsight, there were many clues that she hated the job.

My present CF grabs my hands and put them on her body. Judging by the snail trail on my pants, she also gets wet from the dances. I think my previous CF mentally checked out during the dances because she was never wet from what I could tell.

My limit is fingering. I could never do that. That’s just so intrusive but i know some guys go for it.

I'm sure that there are plenty of jobs out there that have higher stress and suicide rates than porn or stripping. Lawyers, doctors, etc. The article didn't take the stance that porn is like disarming IEDs in Afghanistan ,but just that there's a growing trend of depression and suicide within porn.

There was a story a couple of years ago about a porn star who wanted out. She took a bunch of training and certification work to become an OR nurse, passed all her classes, applied for and got a job.

She worked happily in a hospital OR for a couple of years before someone saw one of her videos online and shared the link at work. Caused a huge amount of drama and she got let go. Went back to porn.

I have to imagine she's not in the best head space. Wish I could remember her name. Really tiny, white, and huge tits. I know that doesn't narrow it down a lot...

Anonymous Jim is a simp if I ever saw one. What a beta cuck.

@skibum- Looks like google search led me to the same link as yours for the 10 professions with the highest suicide rates. Seeing electricians on the list (at #7) was a shocking revelation to me..........

I’ve been reading this thread at times when I didn’t have time to type a reply.

A lot of great points.
I work in healthcare, and I have experienced first hand how a “bad call” can cause depression for some time afterwards, but fortunately it’s not been to the point of suicide. But I can definitely say that the suffering medical professionals see, especially when it’s children, can really take a toll on mental health.

Here’s where I think the difference is.

If I go seek counseling. If I tell a friend. If I’m open to the public, most decent people will offer me support. “You do a difficult job, an honorable profession”, and they sympathize with my plight. They won’t shame my work choice. And it’s the rare asshole that says this is what I signed up to do, so I should be able to handle what I see.

Dancers don’t receive the same admiration. The general message is this is what they signed up for. That their job is about being touched and assaulted. And many people look down on them. I know of dancers that have been assaulted in the VIP and the most that happened is the club kicks them out. The dancer I spoke with didn’t even get the guys name. The club doesn’t want the cops showing up to fill out sexual assault reports. These girls are encouraged not to report these assaults. And no matter how much you pay a dancer, if she says no, it’s assault.

Anonymousjim, I agree with you completely. These are human beings and too many men forget that.
And women? Many main stream women, the ones that don’t dance, look down on strippers.

Plus from what I’ve heard from dancers, a lot of customers do grab and grope without asking. Even try to finger them, or put their mouth on the girls body without asking. It’s not unusual for these patrons (women customers do this too) to think they get free range of these girls bodies without asking. I would imagine being violated over and over again can cause a lot of mental health issue. On top of what Papi said, I believe many of these girls go into this business because there is already some issues at play. And top it off with it being difficult to transition out of this work. And I think you have a huge recipe for disaster for these girls.

^^ terrific post

I should clarify that by the “club kicks them out” I mean the clubs kicks out the customer, not the dancer.
I can see how that sentence might sound otherwise

Agree with RandomMember. Good, level-headed post.

Si what’s the takeaway from this thread?

Just tip for conversation and not get dances ?

Sit on our hands?

Bavarian said "Si what’s the takeaway from this thread? Just tip for conversation and not get dances ? Sit on our hands?"

No, not sure where you're getting that.

For me, there's not much of a takeaway but rather an affirmation of what I already do. Communicate what I like/want clearly. Respect her limits. Don't be a dick.

If you do a job where you rub your tits in guys' faces and your ass in their laps, there will be a certain % who get overexcited and touch you someplace you'd prefer they not. Duh.

If you are all over the Internet taking python sized cocks in your pussy and ass, there will be a lot of guys who will be deterred from seeing you as a potential mate. Again...Duh.

Next we'll be talking about how water is wet. If these girls don't want to bear the consequences for their choices, then they should make different choices in the first place.

What I always enjoyed about dealing with Russian and other dancers from other countries is that they tend to be very clear-eyed about all of this. The Russian girls I got to know well didn't wallow in self pity. They were tough, understood the trade offs very well and were determined to get the most out of it while they could. Then, when they finished in the industry, they reinvented themselves completely and left it behind.

I have little sympathy for cupcakes who decide to get fucked up over the fact that their choices have consequences AND who won't help themselves by doing whatever it takes (moving, changing their names, creating a new back story, etc.) to leave it behind. Instead they just sit there and bleat on about how nobody will accept them for who they are, so caught up in their own self pity that enormity of what they're asking just doesn't register.

Oh, and analogizing them to medical professionals who have to watch cancer kids die is just plain silly.

Yeah what Ishmael said. I always ask a dancer if I can touch, even if I’ve been given permission at another time to do so. Can I touch your boobs? Can I touch your butt? When things get “more intimate” in VIP I always say let me know if there’s anything I’m doing that you’re not comfortable with. And I check in through our session. I treat them exactly like I’d treat anyone that I’m not paying. I’m also trying to be more aware of dancers that say yes but may be baby strippers and feel pressured or really don’t want to at all (and could feel violated) but want the money. I notice my ability to read those subtly cues decrease when I’ve had too much to drink, so I’ve been cutting back so I can have my wits about me more.

I had one time where a dancer told me yes, and continued to say she was fine with everything when I asked, and I took her answers at face value as I was pretty drunk, but the next day I second guessed her enthusiasm. This was a long time ago, and I still feel badly about this. It has been in my mind since, and have thought about going back to see her to apologize. These girls are human beings, somebody’s daughter. I want to make sure they feel in control in any of our interactions, so that they don’t feel used afterwards. I wouldn’t be ok with myself otherwise.

Dugan—>”both broke and stigmatized since the money is not what it used to be.”

Just a minor nitpick. It’s still possible to have an upper middle class “salary” if one averages $300/shift and works 4 days a week...which I still believe are very realistic numbers in most places.

It’s the savings (or lack thereof) that’s more challenging. And why she would be broke when quitting.

Not anything against any of the rest of the overall points. Which I agree with.
———
Anyways, I do find it interesting that being groped is the main emphasis here. The vast majority of the time, when a dancer complains about being groped, it’s because

1) she’s from an area where that’s not the norm and isn’t used to it
2) or she’s an outright baby stripper
3) the customer isn’t paying fairly (example, if the club sell two tiers of dances. And he’s pushing for tier #2 service when he agreed to a tier #1 dance with the lower price attached)
4) the customer is being entitled

I’ll give two scenarios of two kinds of gropy customers. Customer B I don’t consider a big deal but customer A irritates the heck out of me.

I walk up to customer A:

We chit chat and I ask for a dance after two songs. He tells me to wait a little longer (with the attitude he’s being put out and I’m pushing him too hard). I shrug it off and continue talking to him for another three.

Finally he’s ready for his dance. He attempts to put his hands somewhere not allowed, just after the first song, and I gently move his hands. He gets pissy and then I nicely tell him I don’t want to get in trouble. He counters with that he knows the manager. He gets quietly huffy for the remainder of the song. At the end he pays and walks away without a word acting as if I ripped him off in some kind of way.

I walk up to customer B:

We chit chat and I ask for a dance after two songs. He’s down with that. Within 30 seconds of the first song, he’s already attempting to do the exact same thing customer A attempted. And he may be even more persistent when I try to brush his hands away with putting his hands there than customer A.

But the whole time, he had a cheerful attitude and clearly enjoyed the dance the entire time. Just to keep it more apples-to-apples, I’ll say it’s just two songs.

Sometimes, he displays he’s happy enough by inviting me back to the table and offer a drink. (And thus I give out time and entertain him without negotiating a tip.)

Again, to keep this apples-to-apples, I accept because either I think there’s the possibility he will buy more after OR he has friends with him that I can try with next.

Let’s say for whatever reason I realize after three songs it’s not going to pan out. No big deal, I smile and walk away from the table. No hard feelings.

In that scenario, even though I spent just as much time with customer B as customer A for the same $40. And B was even more gropy than A, I’d still rate B as a better customer to deal with. Because B is just simply being a horny bastard and testing what he can get away with. A is trying to exert some kind of bullshit power trip over me.

As far as the original topic itself...it’s already been stated that many dancers don’t come from happy backgrounds. I would agree would would add on one can read the life support section from stripperweb if one wants to uncover some really sad stuff. I don’t consider my background to be the best but others have had it worse for sure.

Some ways dancing may reinforce certain problems tho:

Stigma, as alluded to. I can say that that some friends distanced themselves from me when I started dancing. Granted they have their own basket case problems, so I didn’t take it too personally. But one can’t deny the increasing isolation.

Maintaining friendships with other dancers can often have its own drama attached. The more benign drama is just a train wreck who accidentally pushes their lifestyle on you. The more malicious drama is a dancer who tries to sabotage you with customers or your club.

And I also agree with somebody’s comment that if one has problems, it’s easier to ignore them when you have a job without much accountability to much.

I wanted to go a different way as some of the answers as well. I am objectifying the women. I don't want to know them...I just want a simple transaction. I want some good sexy dances for some good green dollars. I want a woman to put on a show of being attracted to me. I want a blowjob or sex or both. I want to play with their bodies and I don't want a relationship.....I just want to pay and move on.

I have had relationships over the past 40 years since I was a kid. I have loved and lost. I'm not looking for that at this point. I just want to pay for a service.

I imagine that the ladies are doing much the same. They just want to make money and do as little as they have to do to earn it. The problem is probably when some forget that or get in over their heads. They need to know their limits and stay on the right side of them. When you hate your profession and have to turn to drugs and drink to "escape" them, you've probably gone to far or gotten into the wrong line of work. Unfortunately, women are evolved to need feelings from a guy while guys evolved the need to nail as many females as possible. We're not built for relationships....we're built for mating. Women aren't built for sleeping around...they want the best male available and to try and keep him around to help raise the offspring. It's science.

Ooh but to what I said earlier about customer A and B. What I say may not apply everywhere. Some dancers may very much dislike customer B as well, even though I’d put him in neutral territory. But I was just trying to make a greater point groping isn’t the end all be alll of assholery.

This thread reminded me of an incident that occurred a number of years back at a dump called the Landing Strip in WPB, there was a dancer there that used to run around complaining that such and such a customer had fingered her vagina, but in reality she would grab your hands and stick your hand in her cooch, then try to hustle a tip out of you, but the floor man was onto her scheme, she eventually tried it on someone who wasn’t going to let her get away with her hustle and they fired her.

There’s a scene in Pretty Woman, I can’t remember the exact scene, haven’t watched it in a long time, where Julia Roberts is yelling at Richard Gere saying “I say who, I say when, I say who” and she’s very upset.

Obviously it’s a movie. But I think the issue is no matter what, dancer or civi girl, if the girl doesn’t feel like it was her choice to agree (she feels pressured or “had no choice” because she needed the money) that it can be an interaction she later doesn’t feel fully ok with. Now take that and multiply it by hundreds (if you’re dealing with this as your job) for dancers that don’t maintain their boundaries for whatever the reason, I don’t see how it wouldn’t cause issues over time.

Just as there are variations in sex drive, I’m sure there are dancers that really enjoy this. But Primo is right that if a dancer is turning to alcohol or drugs to deal with their shifts and make it tolerable to touch men and be touched by them, then she really shouldn’t be in that line of work. And I think that’s a red flag that she’s going to have issues with this emotionally at some point.

Don’t worry, Randumbmember will come through the day to save those mental freaks with his charm and wisdom, citing liberal political rhetoric and promising f to pay them for their companionship at dinner, offering his free counseling services to them. Sort of like their own personal white knight!

What a randum Fag!

I think there is too-much victimology in our American society - e.g. if you're not making $250K, driving a luxury-car; and have a nice 4-bedroom-house in a nice suburb, then someone/something screwed you and "it's not fair" - never-mind those that have those things 9 times out of 10 busted their ass to get it getting advanced college degrees and often studying and working their ass off in a competitive/tough major while often times the person that doesn't have those things likely did not put in the same amount of work or effort.

No one should be mistreated - but personally I feel there is too-much "kids-gloves handling" in this thread making the avg dancer out to be some helpless victim constantly being "victimized" - again; plenty of people hate their job and often have to take shit either from their bosses, or from customers they may have to directly deal with.

Per my POV of what I see in clubs, it seems to me there is more victimization of customers by dancers than the other way around - I def see more dancers taking advantage and ripping off custies than customers fucking over dancers - not saying there aren't customers that fuck over dancers; but at least from what I've been purview to in clubs, 4 times out of 5 it's a dancer fucking-over a custy, usually via ripping him off, but also at times physically assaulting a custy over a dispute (payment or w/e) - I myself have been threatened by dancers on some occasions.

So all this "woe is me" w.r.t. dancers is overdone IMO - they are made out to be perpetual victims which they are not IMO and often times they are the victimizers - not saying it's an easy job but there are plenty of jobs that are not easy and different jobs are hard in different ways - it's rare a custy will hold down a dancer and force her to do something against her will - has it *ever* happened; of course; but not the damn norm - dancers usually control the amount of contact to be had and they have the option to walk away from an interaction they don't like

Idk I think papis POV is extreme here. Some clubs are known for customers can get away with murder and club owner or mgr keeps girls way in check so basically they have no rights. I am sure there are clubs out there that are purely about fucking over the customers too much as well though- but I've yet to see anywhere that 4 out of 5 times it's the girl in the wrong.

A strip-club is a dancer's turf - they know the game from being there multiple nights per week months and years on end; and many dancers use this to their advantage to take-advantage of inexperienced custies which are often the majority of strip club customers who only go to a SC once in a blue-moon and don't know how SCs work - as a custy I've had dozens of encounters w/ ROBs that threaten to get a bouncer or the manager b/c I won't pay their extortion - reading the daily reviews, encounters of inexperienced SCers being hustled and threatened to pay up is not uncommon.

Again - not saying that custies don't fuck over dancers - but from my POV it seems to go the other way more often.

Maybe this depends on what clubs we frequent. I’m not saying there aren’t dancers out there that don’t take advantage of custies.
And really I’d like to think there’s a larger portion of dancers, especially seasoned ones, that speak up and maintain boundaries, *and* have learned to get a good read on men, and maybe decline a private vip with someone that gives her a bad feeling.

However, some places are very high mileage and I believe more girls than we’d like to think, especially new strippers, follow the lead of the club environment and other girls when it comes to extras and unwanted touching.

I have flat out had dancers tell me they’ll do full service in exchange for cocaine or if I knew where to get some. (I did not)
The dancer may be making this choice. You may not want to view her as a victim. But the topic was mental health. And even if we decide she not a victim, it doesn’t mean these choices won’t negatively impact her mental health.

Hell, cops that kill in the line of duty, and I’m not discussing hot topic shootings, I mean in a situation that is cut and dry self defense. Very often the officer can experience mental health issues afterwards, even if it was a justified shooting, because he still took a life. The cop doesn’t have to be a victim to have negative impacts from the choices he made on the job.

As for actually sexual assault, I do believe more girls than we know are assaulted and don’t report it. Whether for fear of retaliation by management and losing their job, and loss of income, or fear that they will legally get in trouble if the assault took place because she was agreeing to preform extras for money. (Like she agrees to giving a BJ, but he rapes her in the vip). I believe many of these strip club owners do the best they can to cover up actually assaults and not look for reasons to have LE sniffing around their club.

^^^^This. (Ataboy's post, because someone will probably ninja me)

The cop analogy is a good example. Say a cop had to kill someone in the line of duty. The action was deemed absolutely necessary and he was even given a medal for his actions. Suppose 5 more incidents like that happen. You don't think that starts to add up and fuck up the cop's mental stability?

Likewise with a dancer having to subject themselves to being touched inappropriately for hours a day for money. I'd just think that shit is gonna affect your mental much more than a person being subjected to flipping burgers for hours daily. Or driving a transit bus all day. Or picking up garbage everyday. I can easily say my job barely affects my mental.

And I'm not talking about customers trying to rip off dancers or vice versa. I'm talking about the nature of dancing period. Shit, after being touched inappropriately by strangers for hours on end I can see why some dancers turn to just trying to rip off customers doing as little work as they can. At that point they're probably just like "man FUCK these PLs".

Ataboy, this is the second time you've pounded the drum on the sexual assault topic. For starters, your contention that it is prevalent is nothing more than wild ass speculation. Worse though, it reminds me of the human trafficking canard used to justify endless persecution of p4p girls providing consensual sex to paying customers.

I am far less convinced that rape or other clear cut cases of sexual assault (the non-college campus definition) are as common as you believe. What I do believe are more common are the less clear cut cases of verbal miscommunications and/or situations where things go further than she would like, but she goes along with it for one reason or another. When a girl is already rubbing on your boner and doing other things to you during a dance, boundary and consent issues can become a bit hazy to say the least.

But hey, since I don't to come across as insensitive, maybe you can help us work on a solution to this epidemic. Perhaps you will develop our first ever TUSCL Permissible Activity Consent Form. That way neither you nor others would need to ask that endless series of creepily awkward and offputting consent questions during the action as there will already be a mutually agreed upon set of boundaries. It could include a series of "yes' or "no" check boxes for different actions and maybe one or two fill in boxes for unusual requests. Then it could be signed by her and you and even witnessed by a member of club management. Heck, as an added safeguard, perhaps you could even encourage the witness to monitor compliance with the terms of the form as the event takes place.

Or better still, in addition to requiring this nifty new consent form, maybe all new club customers could be required to watch a newly created 20 minute "Protecting Our Dancers" safety video before being allowed to purchase a lapdance. A viewing could be considered good for one year, after which the club customer would be required to watch it again before being allowed into the lapdance area.

Hey, just spit balling here now. But if we are not part of the solution, then we are part of the problem, right? 😉

^ Daaaamn, it’s one thing to disagree (I myself am mostly inclined to agree. And I especially get annoyed at the “traumatized” dancers—but that’s from jaded personal experience because those who sob the loudest are also the first to tell me how much better hustlers they are than me, brag about xyz, etc)

But on the other hand that’s quite the impassioned speech from you there. If YOU personally feel attacked maybe you could go visit Brother Foghorn to confess to anything...

^^lol. Nice comments.

Shoot nice, I essentially write for a living, so it doesn't actually take me much effort to spin that stuff out when a funny idea pops into my head. 😉

Don't get me wrong, the chiding I gave him on his wild ass and quite melodramatic speculation was one part of my point. But the rest was mostly a play on his post about how he streams a never-ending series of weirdly creepy sounding consent questions. I had more than a few chuckles when I was writing that stuff. 😀

This thread is depressing 😞

Who knew we were causing so much mental anguish to strippers.

Shut down all the strip clubs. The girls will just have to work a normal 9 to 5 job like the rest of us.

I refuse to sit on my hands or pay for conversation. Fuck that.

I would rather just stay home and watch porn.

@Rick, that shit was funny. Reminded me of the Chappelle show skit where they had the "love contract" for guys to have their one night stands to sign so they don't get hit with assault charges the next morning. http://www.cc.com/video-clips/jwmvxd/cha…

Still, I'm not talking about sexual assault. I'm taking about the job of dancing. Like a guy can go to a club, pay whatever amount for dances or a VIP, and in turn get to grope some beautiful woman that's usually way out of his league for 30 minutes or whatever. That guy knows damn well this girl would never even let him so much as pinch her ass outside the club without a commotion, but in here for the right money he can do so much more?

@heaving man I don't know what to tell you. I will admit that although I believe the job is tough on the girls, that knowledge still won't stop me from going. Makes me sound like a shithead but I don't know what else to say. I enjoy clubs, and I enjoy the women who share their lovely bodies with us for a price.

I will still go the BYOB clubs though.

I will just drink with my buddies and not get dances anymore. Sorry, strippers but this is for your mental wellbeing.

I always found it fascinating how in a lap dance interaction, we would love for a dancer to touch us all over and even grab our junk but touching a dancer back gives her mental anguish.

Yes RickDugan spice is right. Itbhas been a long time since you been to confessions. I have a slot open next week. PM me

mm in addition to nicespice's points about touching...

i wanna also add a few

*I am more ok with touching the faster/easier the sale is
* fucking therapists/counselors are making like $200 an hour for listening to people's bullshit- am i right or what? unless you're fucking god damn paying me I don't wanna talk to anyone long at all.
*there is a minimum amount of money per unit of time for me to be psychologically ok with touching. Like here I can barely stand it for $100 my cut for 15 minutes. Where I was working before it was no rooms just $25 dances but I was often able to charge $50/dance for touching no problem.

"they are made out to be perpetual victims which they are not IMO and often times they are the victimizers"

The SJWs and feminists would have everyone believe all women are victims because of their vagina. Male victims are ignored and nobody cares. Im seeing the same thing here.

I've done the touching $20/$25 dances in various places in the past, and idk it just affects me.

but i also think i am burning out fast on the touching in general. because as time goes on i want more and more money to put up with being touched at all. even something as simple as an arm around my waist w/o the guy having already paid me makes me fucking sick and disgusted at this point.

I don't really consider myself some sort of fucking victim. Just offering one point of view.

I don't think most strippers are victims in general unless they are being pimped out. But most strippers have been a victim "in the moment" at times at the hands of awful club customers...



I would say some of these porn stars are sorta victims? I mean have you watched porn? Some of those scenes the woman is clearly in a lot of pain. But I guess her $1000 or whatever pay makes it worth. It just makes me sad that a lot of guys these days watch all this and take it for how things should be/are and don't even think about it. I do feel like they go through a lot of abuse in porn... I just also feel like they kinda sorta knew what they were getting into yet I still find it sad.

I feel like there's room for some nuance between the extremes of "every lap dance is rape" and "fuck these bitches, they get what they deserve".

I believe that we can go into a club and have our fun (whatever that means...), so long as everything has been communicated clearly and both parties are on board.

I've had the full range of fun in and out of the club. I've never felt like any of the dancers I've dealt with were victimized by me. Even if I'm not happy with a dancer, I'll either bail on the dance early or just let her know that I won't buy future dances.

But the fact is that some guys don't comprehend restraint or boundaries...

Either yesterday or the day before, I rejected a review where a guy described negotiating a BJ from a dancer in VIP. When they got in the room, he didn't like how she was "servicing" him, so he grabbed her hair and forced her down. He thought the gagging sound was "lol". I'm not sure if that's sexual assault legally because she agreed to blow him, but I suspect it became assault the moment he applied force.

Either way, don't be that guy. Because that guy can die in a fire as far as I'm concerned. And if that dancer develops an overall shitty opinion of customers after that VIP... Well, I get that.

In another thread it was mentioned that most long-term SC customers have a keen sense of which dancers will be more fun in the CR. I think that's valid. I also think we can usually pick out the dancers who are nervous, scared, reluctant, etc., and act accordingly.

In or out of a strip club, I don't think it's too much to ask that you treat humans like... well... humans. This applies to both dancers and customers...

Also, I agree that dancers don't get a blanket pass. I've met several that are blatant ROBs and/or shitty people. That said, I don't model my own behavior after the worst behavior I've observed from strippers.

But you do you...

When you perform a job that potentially pays the hourly equivalent of a surgeon and requires no schooling or prior experience, then that job will likely come with certain hazards and risks.

Men understand the concept of compensation commeasurate with hazard/risks when they sign up for a coveted miltary special forces role, a lucrative NFL contract or a six figure salary underwater welder oil rig job.

Only in strip club world does this concept seem lost on a lot of dancers. They want the easy money, the adoration and attention, but guys should just sit on their hands and behave like good little boys and just hand over the money.

Sorry but thats just now how it works. Otherwise why bother even having strip clubs. If men want to deal with uptight guarded women who find a mans touch disgusting....a man might as well save his money and try his luck finding a willing woman at a bar or lounge.

No one forces these women to work at a strip club. Just a work a normal 9-5 job....stop with this entitlement of risk-free easy money because simply having a vagina entitles money to just be handed to you.

Cmi said—>”I feel like there's room for some nuance between the extremes of "every lap dance is rape" and "fuck these bitches, they get what they deserve". “

Well spoken there.

—>”But the fact is that some guys don't comprehend restraint or boundaries... “

I didn’t bring this up earlier. But what I would say is that there is a small subset of men who actually DO comprehend restraint—and enjoy going out of his way violate boundaries.

Earlier in the thread, when the subject was about groping, and I had my examples of customer A and B (those scenarios have happened to me many times)...I alluded to what qualities makes customer A stand out as somebody with a slimy sense of entitlement.

BUT there are a very small subset who go a step past customer A. Perhaps 1%...?

It’s difficult to explain what differentiates them from my customer A example...but they definitely are a more resolute bunch than A. Because A just wants to lord power over dancers because he feels insecure in some way.

But this very small subset of men are more motivated by actively ~wanting~ to make a dancer feel afraid and in pain.

It is thankfully not very often that I find one of these men. But when I talk to them, instincts do take over and I definitely get a gut feeling that I need to get out of there.

Sadly, those instincts were developed from harsh lessons I’ve learned in the past. That happened before I was a dancer. I have made some errors before while dancing that have led to unpleasant experiences too. But nothing as bad as stuff I encountered before dancing.

For another example that displays how these kinds of men operate, refer to this:
https://www.stripperweb.com/forum/showth…
Yes, earlier I did make a snarky comment about “traumatized” girls. But I will admit one can’t downplay certain stuff too.
———
Maybe I’ll do research and write a piece for dancers on how to identify the varying levels of creepy customers. And advice on how to manage on each level...Cause come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever read a practical how to guide like that. Most dancers claim to refuse to deal with them at ALL levels except when extracting a fuckton off of him.

The minor levels...one sometimes just has to deal with and can be an okay source of money if you manage them alright and fast hustle them. Emotionally draining, but even if they push boundaries they will stop in some circumstances. Plus sometimes, they are more deserving of pity than outright derision.

But the more major levels are definitely the ones that have the ability to cause longer lasting damage and should be spotted with the warning to outright avoid...

J-2018- Well written post, Mr. Zero-Zero. I find it strange that someone can join a strip club website without going to a club, and posting a review about it. Unless you're posting under 2 screen names- 1 for club reviews, 1 for DB posts, for whatever reason.

@nicespice... Perhaps I'm being naive, but in that SW thread I'm a little surprised at the large role played by other club employees in enabling that guy's stalking.

This, of course, assumes that her posted account is 100% accurate. Who knows?

Regardless, the whole story is sad, but the actions of other employees are reprehensible as depicted.

I’m more confused than a penguin on a desert.

Are dancers traumatized by touch or not?

If I touch, it’s buttocks or breasts, never pussy.

The dancer is the one putting my hands on her breasts.

It's a discussion, Bavarian. Discussions, by definition, have multiple viewpoints and it's up to you to sort through them and decide what makes sense from your perspective.

If you're looking for someone to hand you a checklist guide, you're shit out of luck.

Ultimately, everyone involved has the choice to walk away. (Except in some situations which are illegal as fuck) the woman can stop the dance, stop the job and go do something else. There's nothing forcing her to be a dancer. And if a guy crosses a line, she has plentiful security to remove the customer.

Can't make the same money at some other job....then you'll have to make a choice....maybe work more jobs...or build up some skills in other areas. But ultimately, you can walk away.

The same goes for the guys....at any point you can call it off, stop mongering and walk away. Nobody has a gun to your head making you do this shit. Hell, I haven't been to a club in a couple of years because it hasn't been worth it to me to go.

That’s why I like having a favorite dancer and just getting dances from her until she leaves the industry. That way I traumatize less dancers with my touch.

I also think a dancer feels less anxiety with her regulars because she knows how they behave.

Why do women who look down on men, hate the idea of potentially being groped and touched even bother messing around with working in such a sexually charged environment like strip clubs.

Its like a police officer who doesnt want to tackle an escaping robbery suspect because hes afraid of getting his uniform dirty. But he still wants the deference and respect for authority that comes with being a police officer.

Thankfully ive developed a keen sense of sniffing out and avoiding these uptight "traumatized" dancers based on their negative body language and facial expressions. Sorry im just not going to pay a dime to someone who has issues with men, issues with sex, and think their body is some sort of holy temple to be worshipped from afar.

There are plenty of fun free spirited dancers who understand the deal and are looking to please...these girls get my $$$

"When you perform a job that potentially pays the hourly equivalent of a surgeon and requires no schooling or prior experience, then that job will likely come with certain hazards and risks...

Only in strip club world does this concept seem lost on a lot of dancers."

It's not exclusive to strippers though. Females have been conditioned this way for the last 20+ years at least. Third wave feminism has told young girls and women their entire lives they are princesses and queens. That they're "special" because of what's between their legs.

Gee, Bavarian, I pray that you never have to call a heating/AC technician to change a compressor or troubleshoot a faulty relay when the temperature is above 80 degrees, or below 40 degrees, or any precipitation. Working under those conditions just might be too stressful. I hope you or immediate family member never has to go to ER outside the 9 - 5 working hours, doing so just might cause stress for docs, nurses, and receptionists. I hope you don't go home starved after midnight, working graveyard shift at all nighter just might be too stressful for waitress or cook. I'm sure you''ll forego the $99 savings on a redeye transcon flight vs 9 - 5 time slots, because working those ungodly hours just might be too stressful for flight crew. I'm sure you'll just sit in your car until the sun comes up if you get a flat or breakdown at midnight, because calling roadside assistance might cause stress for someone at this hour.

Me thinks you're overthinking this whole dancer interaction thing.

This thread has traumatized me.

Well just because a dancer can potentially make $400 an hour does not justify the actions of PLs that try to stick a finger in their vagina.

What’s disappointing to learn is that strippers hate to be touched or even to touch men.

I like touch but I don’t want to use the cuddle buddy service. That’s pretty lame.

@minnow it’s all tongue in cheek 😉

Bavarian, you need to seek dancer permission prior to tonguing her cheek......

Except for the FIV thing. I really mean that. To me that’s assault. I doubt anyone would agree to be digitally penetrated.

FIV...

For me, if it's penetrative, I just ask. But I'm not a huge enthusiast for strip club FIV.

But over time, things can get added to the menu. I had one CF suggest that I finger her after we'd done several VIPs over time. Hey, she asked without me angling for it... who am I to refuse?

But if it's your first time with a dancer and you grab her like a bowling ball, then you deserve to have your nuts tied in a knot.