Sex OTC - prostitute??

There's not much gray area there. Do they get paid for sex?

wallanon
In my mind the distinction is clear. I found it a bit surprising that one of my long OTC friends was deeply offended at the label.

Was curious how others might weigh in on this.

Never questioned it

Seems obvious to me, if you pay them for sex they are prostitutes. Doesn't matter if it's ITC, OTC, SA, BP, AMP or streetwalkers.

Just don't tell them that or they will go nuts.

And what would the significance of that be? Legal? Moral?

And what do these guys think of themselves for partaking?

Do you separate women into two categories?

SJG

https://www.pleaserusa.com/ProductDetail…

https://www.pleaserusa.com/ProductDetail…

Sophisticated Lady - Duke Ellington
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brqxEdws…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJVACQHI…

This has a really interesting melody and harmony. There are fusion jazz versions of this, and they are instantly recognizable, even without the lyrics. This version makes a pleasant change to the lyrics. To my ear, they must have some sort of pickup and amplification on the wood bass, order to get more sustain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wc957do…

Well detailed in my stripper/whore article...

we usually pay for sex one way or another. it all costs. rare is sex with absolutely no cost.

Yes, of course it's prostitution - ITC, OTC, SA. But middle-aged guys on TUSCL are famous for not knowing the difference.

^^^Or maybe they’re just confused by the difference between prostitute and girlfriend.

A girl giving lap dances is prostitution.

heck. marriage is easily p4p. 99% of the time. it's just legal. as is trading a nice dinner date for sex.

londonguy. how is a low mileage lap dance prostitution??

As far as I can see, it is still only a few women who earn enough in market employment, the kind of employment that a man could also do, to support themselves in the style they desire. Most women are getting money from men, and I see nothing wrong about this.

What we call prostitution is really just a shorter term relationship.

Guys should not need to restrict themselves to this, but neither should they need to look down on the women.

SJG

Ford Class
http://www.thefordclass.com/cvn78/index.…

See the dry docks.
Use zoom outs and changing back to maps to see where this is.

Newport News Shipbuilding
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Newpor…

Huffy
http://www.divinesecretsofadomesticdiva.…

Here is a hilarious movie about a Rev. Ike sort of a character:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065579/

They show some of it here, watch how he drives into town in a Rolls followed by an armored car to hold the money.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq5wk9Lx…

https://www.pleaserusa.com/ProductDetail…

https://www.pleaserusa.com/ProductDetail…

Sophisticated Lady - Duke Ellington
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brqxEdws…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJVACQHI…

This has a really interesting melody and harmony. There are fusion jazz versions of this, and they are instantly recognizable, even without the lyrics. This version makes a pleasant change to the lyrics. To my ear, they must have some sort of pickup and amplification on the wood bass, order to get more sustain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wc957do…

More Patty Austin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpLziRhp…

@justme62: The prostitution laws in many places are written in such a way that “sexual services” includes direct stimulation of genitals, even fully clothed. No nakedness, handjob, blowjobs, sex or anal required. If she’s grinding on a PL’s dick, or pussy, and you’re paying her, she’s a whore.

My ATF never made any bones about it being a quid pro quo situation. She told me on a couple occasions, “I don’t mind being *your* whore.”

The MILF, on the other hand, absolutely refuses to take my money when she meets me. I’m allowed to buy her lunch, dinner or drinks, but no cash.

If the women are using their body to grind and stimulate you genitals, then that is sexual services even if they're clothed. If they aren't providing any contact, they're still showing off their naked body, so exhibitionism or still sexual services. We just argue about degrees, and some girls want to sleep easier and think better of themselves as well as judge others that do different things, but to me there isn't much argument of what they are really doing.

I will never get prostitution/paying hookers for sex guys.

I thought was pretty clear that a strip club is primarily a dating venue for hot girls and RICH STUDS, and any money she ends up after a guy moves on is a consolation prize for not being wifed up. It's kind of like the tradition of an engagement ring being 1-3 months salary, but value adjusted to her lack of virginity. Since she only does this with you, her company is definitely worth some kind of premium, though.

Ppwh: Lol. Love it.

just about everyone is addressing this from one side only, which doesn't surprise me. i will agree with taxi driver here, in that i don't go into clubs looking for whores. i hate the "wanna dance" girls, but i equally avoid the ones who grab my dick and immediately start talking about the fun we can have in VIP. with that understood, of course the girls i see OTC are never whores either

personally i find it laughable, that there are guys here who think they've somehow earned bragging rights bc/ they've fucked whores, or who try to act like they actually know anything about women when it's obvious the only experience they have is using an ATM. i don't normally give a shit about someone's else self-delusions, but some of the trolls on here just leave me no choice but to call them out on their bullshit. dancers are not civilians, and prostitutes are not dancers. people need to be more honest about what they're doing.

As someone once said, it all depends on what your definition of "is" is.

anonlvone, hey man, don't get all sensitive just because your dancer doesn't only do this with you. I think we have all been there, but most of mine were civvies.

Let's get RickyBoy's opinion on this. He always scoffs at the notion that the women who fall victim to his system (and, honestly, it's such a powerful work of genius that who couldn't?) are prostitutes. Don't let the fact that they are having sex for money convince you otherwise.

“Prostitute” and “whore” are ugly words. I prefer “party girl” or “Ohio State coed.”

What if the money I give her "is" a gift and she thanks by giving me a blowjob or a hug? Is that prostitution?...

I feel like usually, these kinds of conversations are just an excuse for guys with low self-esteem to make themselves feel better by finding a way to put down the girls; or alternatively, to feel like intellectuals because they have the stunning insight that women who take money for sex are technically prostitutes. There's nothing to be gained by pointing this out, it's a word with insulting connotations. It doesn't take a whole lot of self-awareness to understand whether stripper/customer or SB/SD actually fit the definition of prostitution

Sub....exactly. And it's obvious that some, in this game, and that post on this board, need to go,there to make themselves feel better.

jackslash... i like the 'party girl'...
:)

Subraman. Well said. My perspectives mirrors yours. What I was getting at is how many of the dancers accept the concept that trading money for OTC fun is prostitution.

My limited experience with this topic tells me that almost none of the girls accept that their Itc extras or OTC trysts are considered to be the dirty " P " word

Rather it seems they tend to view themselves as independent contractors of simply dancers.

Strippers or sugar babies don't like being called prostitutes because it's just not a very nice work. Just like PLs don't like being called "dirty old pervs." Even though that's what we are, and that's what they are, play nice, no name calling and everyone will get along.

i'm a dirty old perv. anybody will tell you that. especially people i know.

Sex workers such as strippers and even SBs can hide behind the guise of vetting or screening whereas prostitution has the connotation of straight p4p.

I've had 20-some OTC dates in the past couple of years with five strippers and I'm certain that not a single one of them officially considers herself a prostitute. I prefer not to think of it that way myself, but in my heart of hearts -- and in theirs -- any exchange of money for sexual services has to be regarded as prostitution. With the two of them that I've had most of those dates with, I've actually engaged in a conversation or two about why what we're doing is *not* prostitution. What it boils down to is that a meal in a nice restaurant plus making out turns it from paid sex into a date. So in their minds (and mine, I suppose), some food and GFE make the difference!

Sex for food is as old as flowers. A word one way or another doesn't change anything. I'm been paying for sex for over 40 years. I see the girl for sex; she sees me for the money. If I don't get sex, that's the end; she doesn't get any more money. If she doesn't get money, I don't get sex.

Sometimes we've had relationships lasting five, even ten, years. We might like each other; we might do stuff in addition to sex - watch movies, talk about life, etc. But it's still entirely dependent on sex and money.

I think sex for money is a good thing; two people get what they want; nobody gets hurt; I feel really good about it, and I think she probably does to. It really doesn't matter what you call it. An apple is still an apple, not a banana.

If she has sex in exchange for money (or other things) - it’s prostitution - and she’s the whore. It’s very simple.

If you crimp the hose on money / gifts and she evaporates, then it's prostitution.

@MrDouche: "So in their minds (and mine, I suppose), some food and GFE make the difference!"
-----------------------
Don't forget the Motel 6 dates you were talking about in a previous thread. Such luxury would make any women feel special!!

What Subraman said. It always seems to be the PLs with the lower self esteem, and some sort of PL little man syndrome, that need to put down the girls this way.

"and some sort of PL little man syndrome, that need to put down the girls this way."
-------------
For Christ's sake, there's not a single person here that's "putting down" the girls for trying to survive financially; It's aimed solely at lonely divorced and single guys who can't seem to understand that paying strippers for sex is a fantasy.

^ I often see discussions where someone is taking some otc drama to heart, or having some RIL issues, and other other members remind him that the girls are doing this for money. These purely philosophical threads ab how all strippers/sbs/sa girls are whores, and do they know it, seems to come from insecure guys who need to go on about it themselves. I mean, what’s the point of the discussion anyways?

"I mean, what’s the point of the discussion anyways?"
_______
I didn't start the thread, so you can ask the OP. My comments above are obviously directed at delusional men.

In the case of SA, the topic has a great deal of relevance, since SA markets their product as a place where young girls can get paid for platonic dates. That's not true in 99%+ of the cases and a dose of reality would benefit a lot of the girls who are dipping their toes into the sugaring scene.

Subraman makes a good point. I’ll be honest - in my view - saying a woman is a prostitute (or whore) - is the same thing as saying she’s a lawyer, accountant or engineer. There’s nothing negative in the connotation of the term. In my view prostitution is a legitimate profession - that’s only kept illegal due to political groups wanting to pander to the religious right.

The whores who I know - are hard workers. They are focused on keeping customers happy. They are basically entrepreneurs - and small business owners. So I find the term to denote something very different - than the negative connotation.

My rant is off topic - but it’s something that I feel strongly about. If you call a woman a whore to demean her - it speaks more about how little you are.

^^^better question who cares?

Well, my comment was not directed at you at all. I agree that your comment was straightforward.

The blurry lines of the sa thing make an even stronger case for just not worrying ab it.

I don’t know if you were directing that at me Bj but my comment was to Random. BTW for the record I never call women whores or any other derogatory words if I use the term it’s just intended as generic locker room stuff. In general I love women, and without them life would be just plain boring.

Mine was at random also.

Cashman has it mostly right: "prostitution is a legitimate profession - that’s only kept illegal due to political" nonsense.

Many of the girls I know who sell sex for money "are hard workers, focused on keeping customers happy. They are basically entrepreneurs - and small business owners." The same goes double for madams and men who organize brothels and escort services.

But both "whore" and "prostitute" do have negative connotations, the same way "honky," "faggot" and hundreds of other words do. So I don't call my friends who are gay "faggots." And I don't call my friends and (dare I say) vendors who sell sex for money "whores." Sex worker is a little better, but not much and it's a bit awkward.

We don't have a good word for this wonderful profession.

My comments in this thread were directed at the men who pay for sex, not the women who sell sex. And it's a measure of the pathetic levels of self-delusion on this board that so many people want to pretend otherwise. The point of the thread is self-delusion, not the labels people use for things. And to be even clearer my comments are primarily directed at the fools on this board who don't realize their posts scream ignorance. Do yourselves a favor and go find some civilians to date, instead of going to clubs, or worse lying about the experiences you don't have with women. Your ignorance smells like shit.

@anthonyu we actually have a three great words that I use to describe them I call them Friends with benefits or FWB.

^ plus it saves you from those awkward, “please talk go out w me again! I’ll pay you!” texts.

anon - I’m not sure who is the primary target of your rant. I date civilian women - and I enjoy itc and otc encounters. I don’t think I’m clueless. I appreciate the nuances in many relationships.

"Friends with benefits" or even better yet "entertainers" rather than whore or prostitute is far less an insulting term. Use whatever term you want to call it, but beware of who you use the term with. This is one time that politically correct, may be the the best wat to go for all concerned sakes.

@Bj99 - what I wouldn't give to be a fly on the wall of some PL's favorite club, or just some NSA admin with more privileges than sense. i'd release my own version of "wikileaks" and watch some of the posers on this board just curl up and die

^^^Basicaly you’re a moron that’s where all of your problems begin and end.

I don't think it's a matter of putting anyone down, it's just that really are fools like RickyBoy who deny that a woman who has sex for money is a prostitute. Otherwise, like subraman, have seriously but into the fantasy that they are not prostitutes because they only have paid sex with them and a few others.

I don't consider them a prostitute. I think the day of, leading up to our first OTC is when thoughts of prostitution cross my mind.

In discussion with them for setting up OTC or even after it has occurred I feel I'm taking careful consideration to not be like "hey I'm paying you this for that.". Last time I discussed OTC and or paying with a long time OTC stripper she couldn't figure out what the hell I was trying to say, because I didn't want to just say "hey I pay you for this, when we do this."

@Ch3ll - What you're describing sounds like what someone else recently suggested to me. In your case I would say the girl is not a prostitute, because in her mind she is not thinking in terms of x for y. It's more like the money is to tempt her into spending time with you, like some guys might offer theater or concert tickets, and then after spending time with you she discovers she actually enjoys your company and things progress from there.

The interesting thing is what happens when she does start to make the connection. From reading the posts of certain guys, it seems usually the girl gets to the point where she starts thinking, "Hey, I enjoy getting paid for this," which technically is prostitution, but also no different than what many civilians do to get ahead at work or to get material benefits from boyfriends. In those latter cases I would consider them prostitutes too, although the law would disagree with me. The point is you're being compensated for sex, not the form of the compensation. An important qualifier though, is that the girl is being selective and has free will, which is why I said technically this might be prostitution. The law would argue that it is, but I am not so sure. As I said before, the important thing to me is that the girl is being compensated for sex, not the form of the compensation. There's a lot of hypocrisy in our laws regarding sex.


The other alternative, is that once the girl starts to realize that she enjoys your company, she stops taking your money. On the rare occasions I've compensated a girl for her time OTC this is what has happened, but that just speaks to the types of girls I choose to begin with. It takes more than just a pretty face or T&A for me to consider spending time with a dancer OTC.

I am upfront with my otc desires. I find it’s more effective to be honest in stating what I want. If one doesn’t speak openly, then it allows for miscommunication, and it may also cause one to not fully get what they thought they were paying for.

I must be missing the point of your posts, as I doubt there would be any embarrassment if my itc conversations were made available. It’s a basic business transaction. There’s no thought of anything beyond that.

If someone chops wood are they a lumberjack? If they have been skydiving are they a skydiver? If they go to the driving range are they a golfer? If they cook are they a chef? .....

When I think of the term "prostitution" and its implications, I always think of someone walking the street and doing drive-by solicitations. I liken this to the stigma of people who sell merchandise on a street corner or jackleg contractors who hustle their services door to do with no level of accountability. I heard someone once call that type of person a "trunk slammer" or a snake oil salesman.

But the situation is different when the dancer is employed by a SC because you are patronizing the club while building a relationship. Like if I hire Home Depot or Lowes to remodel my kitchen, they'll send out a 3rd party contractor. After the work is done, I might offer them side work based on the relationship we developed while they were working in my house. In comparison to hiring a jackleg, we have some degree of established commonality through the store where I originally paid for their services.

It’s definitely prostitution.

In most walks of life, women are getting money off of men.

They only call sexual relations prostitution when they are of the very most briefest nature.

SJG

There is one guy who would always play it differently:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsJEkl5G…

More:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsJEkl5G…

Flagooner - if somebody gets paid to chop wood - and they chop wood daily - they are a lumberjack. The same goes for a skydiver and golfer.

By a similar token - if a girl gets paid to fuck - it’s prostitution. If she engages in prostitution as a means of income - then she’s a prostitute.

Cashman - Thank you for supporting my point.

Certainly the act is a form of prostitution.

I don't see whether the performer being considered a prostitute is black or white, and quite honestly I don't know why it is important for any of us to feel the need to assign a derogatory label on someone for no other reason than to demean them.

Is this discussion still alive? I guess i can do some hawking/whoring of my own...

https://tuscl.net/?page=post&id=52744

I agree no need to judge. Just about everyone compromises themselves for money...

"Is this discussion still alive?"

It's been alive longer than SA or TUSCL has been around or any of the people tapping out missives on these boards have been alive. Some topics do get a little tired, but I just skip through them until I see something interesting from a poster who knows what they're talking about.