can the middle class afford to go to SCs?

My rule of thumb is that 0.5% to 1.0% of net worth per year can be pissed away on totally discretionary spending like strip clubs and SBs.

In @GammaNut's case, there are more important needs that come first -- like guns, ammo, fallout shelters, confederate flags, homemade bombs...

I always thought you need to make a minimum of $40,000/yr to be considered middle class. Obviously a single person can live comfortably at that salary vs. having a family. I always thought $40,000-$80,000 was middle class income and greater than $80,000 was up middle class income.

^upper middle class*

txtittyfag: I agree

$25,000 is not the same in the south as $25000 in the northeast corridor.

Most of us here wouldn't know anything about the middle class.

We're all in the $350k and over club.

Just ask us.

Demographically they are correct. Unfortunately many of the middle class ,and the class behind, use credit to fuel their dreams and end up with 0 net worth. Warhawk is right.

"For that matter, five people would still be living lean at $161,277."

Only about 6% of households nationwide clear that kind of money. Someone making that and with a lot of deductions (assuming 3 kids) will clear north of $10,000 per month take home. In some places that's considered a lot of money, so I guess it depends on where you are. Even assuming a $2,500 mortgage payment (which by the way would buy a lot of house in most parts of the country, though less in the northeast), you'd still be left with $7,500 per month for all other expenses. Even with another $1,250 in food costs and yet another $1,250 in transportation and car insurance expenses (assuming car payments and high insurance), that leaves $5,000 per month for other sundry expenses and discretionary spending.

I think those of us who make decent money get spoiled sometimes, but by the standards of most of the population, having over $150k in annual income would hardly feel like living lean.

Median household income is $52,000, which means that half of families live on less than that. If you have a wife and kids and mortgage payments, you can't be making it rain every night.

When I was young and supporting a family, I seldom went to strip clubs and never spent the kind of bucks I do today. Now I can waste $400 to $500 in the clubs a couple times a week, and not miss it.

Strip clubs are an expensive indulgence. Not good to be using them as a regular form of sexual gratification. Need to find other ways.

SJG

This post qualifies for the Larry Fisherman "I just love the sound of my own voice award." SMH what a stupid premise and you claim to be a businessman married to a doctor.

Yes, those numbers seem right. Welcome to my world. ;) ;p
The low end of the article's range is for low COL areas like rural areas and the south and the higher end of the article's range is for high COL areas like NE, MIA, LA, NYC, SF, etc.
This is very much reality for a lot of people.

That article seems wack. Making 160K is upper class, unless you have 3 kids??? Um no. That's still upper class as rick's math shows. They should have stopped at households of 2.

As to the question of middle class afford to go. I dunno, probably not most. Most overspend in general and have loans for everything (cars, credit cards, student loans, mortgages, etc). With all that interest sucking away their income, no there isn't money left for clubs. However, when nearing retirement age and most interest sucking shit is paid off, or if they are a smart fuck who doesn't buy shit on credit, yes they definitely can.

I don't have any loans and my expenses are under 3K a month, including some generous clubbing expenses. I got no loans, all my shit is fully paid. My biggest monthly expense other than bitches is rent and that's under 1K. Earning the 3K monthly net would probably be right at the median (50K gross annually?) as a single fucker.

The joys of a low COL area.

As for the 1% net worth rule, seems like a good rule. I spend over that, but a pretty good guideline for folks near retirement age. Young bucks would have no net worth so I'd probably say whatever is left after you save a shit ton ("pay yourself first" as those finance wizards always say) and have paid all your fixed (rent, loans, utilities) expenses and have fed yourself.

Jack's $52k median household income sounds about right - and that may often mean both parents working - at ~$50k/yr they are def gonna be tight but at least they'll be able to have a roof over their heads and food on the table (in most areas but not in may other areas).

If one has a family to maintain then pretty-hard to be able to club regularly - my older bro and his wife together make $~200k/yr and they are tight b/c they have very large expenses:

+ $3k+ mortgage (not exactly sure of the amount)
+ ~$700 Mercedes lease (I assume not including insurance) - the wife drives this one
+ the bro drives a Kia he's making payments on + insurance
+ both kids in private school (I think that is about $2k/mo)
+ one of the 2 boys is into sports mainly competitive soccer and plays for a competitive league that has high fees + tournaments
+ his family health insurance I think is $500/mo if not more (employer picks up a good part of it)
+ college funds for both boys

Anyway - he's too busy to SC and claims he couldn't afford it anyway (plus his wife is a real ball-buster and he'd have hell to pay if he ever steeped out of line).

I make much less but have very low-expenses and no family to support and probably have more disposable income than the bro.

I'm curious where rick got his figures from (top 6% income level.) I just finished reading a businessinsider.com article that featured 21 US cities telling what it would take to be in the top 1% and the top 5% income earners.

For the top 5%, ranged from a low of $180513 in St. Louis to a whopping $349693 in San Francisco. Majority of the 21 cities featured needed in the $180K to $220K range to be in the top 5%.

Getting back to original article: It considered a range from 2/3 to double the median household income ($55755 in 2016) to be the income required to be considered middle class. That works out to a range from $37170 to $111510 per year. I would suspect that a good plurality, if not majority of middle class falls within this range. Adjustments were made depending on size of household between 1 and 5.

I'll close by saying that not all income is created equal. The average salary Joe would likely be taxed 28% to 33% (plus 3% to 6% more on state/local taxes) for any raise that he got. Meanwhile, a business or property owner (or key management with stock options) has some income earning vehicle that he can tap into in addition to regular salary he may be getting. Most likely will pay only 15% on the gain (assuming it was held for more than 1 year),, plus aforementioned state taxes.

@gammanu: Do you suppose you've cracked the middle class yet? I always pictured you as lower class kind of guy.

Personal experience: I retired at age 58 with an annual pension for life of $90,000 per year. I picked up a 1/2 time job (100 days per year @$500 per day). I had to leave that job for my wife's health reasons 2 years ago. So for 12 years I was working part time & making $140,000. I was able to easily spend about $750 a week on clubbing & OTC.
I've got a condo that I paid $430,000 for 10 years ago with a $213,000 mortgage. Getting by on $90,000 now is very tight and I'm hard pressed to pull together $500 a month for strip clubs now.

Gawker - I recall having the impression that you live in Key West. Is that correct? That has to be an incredibly high cost of living, comparable to Hawaii.

Our monthly living expenses are less than $3,000.00, so we have disposable income.

Gawker, you are struggling on 90k only because you are (1) making large mortgage payments; and (2) live in a high cost area with high taxes (personal income, property, excise, etc.) and even high utility bills. Why not just sell the condo and get out of the northeast? With 90k per year guaranteed plus the equity in the condo, you could do well for yourself just about anywhere.

And if you are worried about your wife's healthcare, there are Mayo Clinics in both Jacksonville FL and Scottsdale AR. As you may know, the Mayo clinic is ranked among the top hospitals in the world for its neurology department.

I don't know anything about Arizona, but in Jacksonville you could buy something decent just with the equity value in your condo and pay next to nothing in other living expenses. Even electricity and water are far cheaper in FL than they are in MA. Imagine not having a mortgage, not having to pay personal income taxes and paying little in the way of property taxes and utility bills. Also imagine only having to pay $50 per year to keep the car registered instead of those atrocious excise taxes. With 90k in annual income, you could live quite well.

Anyway, good luck.

^ I mean not having to pay state income taxes of course. The Feds will always get their pound of flesh. ;)

During my marriage in my twenties I we made as a family $30-$40K a year and I was sneaking out and clubbing on $160 per month and our monthly bills and everything was $2,000 per month with $500 in savings per month ruffly

After my divorce I went four years making $10-15K and lived out of homeless shelters, tents, a van and the projects illegal sleeping on a couch.
The only bill I had was to help my X support the kids. The food I had was government funded and church charity. At this time of my life I actually clubbed on $100 per month.

For the last 3 years of my life I'm making $40-$50K all by myself. I still help the X support and care for the kids although she has remarried. I've paid cash for a trailer and financed the land it's on. I've rented out my spare room to off set my cost of living and I'm basically living for close to free lol....I'm buying food obvious and gas and other things like health and car insurance but that's basically it. Been averaging a club bill of $275 roughly per month but I might not spend it until ever two to four months..so Vasily saving it up then spending it

Yeah. Middle class is a very soft, moving target depending on many factors.

For me, when money gets tight, the first budget I slash is strip club spending.

Middle class should be described as living below your means. If you can't do that then you're poor. If you spend enough where you're not saving, then tiure too broke to club and should only club with money after savings.

Keep in mind a person by rule of thumb needs to save 10-20% of their gross just to be able to retire at an adequate age. Anything below that ensures a lifetime of working.

We finally have all 3 kids out of the house, so the wife and I have started hitting the strip clubs. Never had the money to go when they were under our roof

In a country like the US though, being middle-class is more a state of mind, than an income range. To be middle-class is to accept a reactionary identification system. It pretty much applies to most everyone.

SJG

To answer the title question, as someone who lives a little below his means, I can occasionally go but I usually need more than a month or two to set aside money for a SC trip. ($140 or so for a trip).

I framed it this way with my financial advisor (at my bank) in January: "Being middle class means I can afford anything, I just can't afford everything." Maybe you call it lean, I call it modest. But that's all I need.

I managed to string together and clear $80K in CY2010, with a main job and 16 hrs/wk of side gigs for 8 months before work and leads dried up. That was the first time ever (and since) that I really felt like I easily had enough to cover everything my wife and I would ever need or want. But even without the side gigs, I'm doing OK.

I think Meat72 nailed it. The hallmark of being middle class is supporting yourself and being able to acquire capital to pass on to the next generation. The American Conservative (See http://www.theamericanconservative.com/a… ) also agrees. I got 6 Yess and 6 Nos on its 1960s survey. Decent article.

QUOTE --> "To qualify as middle class, the household must actually own wealth that won’t vanish when the investment bubble du jour pops, and won’t be wiped out by a medical emergency.

Setting aside such quibbles, these thresholds define the key characteristic of the traditional middle class: the middle class accumulates capital that can be passed on to the next generation." --> END QUOTE

I only go as a stress relief for when my main hobby of stamp collecting fails to get me out of the funk. It's sort of like a family "father's day gift" when I go. It's appreciation for all of the hard work that Daddy does, even if I don't have a lot $$ or success to show for it, yet (12 years!). It's a treat and a thank you for all you do. So I do my part an use it sparingly. Which isn't really different than an other middle class indulgence.

What is middle class? I thought middle class was the American dream. I thought middle class was a 3/2 home with decent mid-size car/truck, family vacations out of town, cable TV, and enough discretionary funds to keep a pet or two. Trying to calculate middle class according to the median income may make academic sense, but I don't think it adequately describes the connotation of the word as it exists in American culture. That's where the disconnect existed for me. And no, one cannot afford the middle class existence as I described it, with the funds outlined in the article, and enjoy a vested clubbing lifestyle.
I think I pass through middle class briefly in my late twenties to mid-thirties. That's when my first career really took off, I was able to experiment with a couple of entrepreneurial side ventures, then changed to an employer that really expanded my network before I founded this company. That's part of the reason why I asked everyone's opinion, it's been a long time since I lived paycheck to paycheck and hand to mouth.
It sounds like everyone has their own opinion on what middle class is, how affordable/sustainable it is, and whether the middle.class can afford to club.

What's a 3/2 home? Most middle income people have a compact car (like I do now) or a beater car (like I used to). Anything more is too expensive. No one has cable TV. Pets, yes, we love all of our pets. The dachshund method is real.

I agree what you describe or more along the lines of what my banker advisor described (and how he lives). I agree that is the American Dream. But I think what you describe is Upper Middle Class, not middle class. It's all the flashy things we see advertised and how we see people live on TV.

Sometimes I do wonder why you guys club so much or so frequently. I wonder who as the money for that. Out of college I made $40K in 1998 and it seems more or less I have been stuck there for 20 years. I just figure you guys work very hard and have different stress than I do, so you need something like frequent clubbing to address that, blow off steam (like once a week or once a month).

I think in the example of the article, someone could club on that income, but I doubt they would or I doubt they would even want to, with other financial obligations. The value proposition just isn't there for a guy with middle income in most cases.

I recall a post you had about 15 year mortgages. And I thought to myself (since I tried and all the banks said no) who is able to afford/budget that with middle incomes and typical houses? Not most people I know. I thought, who is this guy gammanu and who does he live around? These aren't the people I know. No one seems to have extra money for 15 year mortgages.

It's tough out here. But I'm not complaining. At least it's America and we are free.

What is middle class?
It's a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage.

3/2 home = 3 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms; and I'll be honest, I have a 4/3 pool home on a triple lot. I do have a 15-year mortgage because I hate making payments or paying interest. I had to talk to a lot of mortgage lenders, put a couple of real estate agents through the grinder, and really beat up (metaphorically) the sellers before putting together my current homestead. Then, I refinanced it all with a lower rate last spring. Who do I live around? An accountant single-mother, a retired financial advisor, an airline pilot, a golf semi-pro, and a salon owner. The area when I moved in was much less expensive than it is now. There used to be a couple of LEOs renting houses, but all the rents went up with the market and they had to move; but that's a different subject.
Now, I have a question for you, Dom77: What's the dachsund method?

The problem is that too many people don't have the good sense to live below their means. Take Papi's example of the family members with a combined 200k in income. They probably take home 13k a month in cash. But then 3k comes right off the top for a 500k mortgage, another $1,500+ for car payments and insurance, 2k for private schools and at least 500 per month for their share of health insurance.

So they are already down to $6,000 per month before any other expenses or savings. On a big house, utilities will likely eat up another 800 (including electric, cable, oil, etc.). Then there are transportation and meal costs, which I'm sure are high given that both parents are working - let's call it another 800 per month, though I bet that number is low. Then let's say another 400 per month for sports, including travel for meets. Then groceries/other essentials of at least 800 per month for a family of four. So for round numbers, let's say we chop off another 3,000 since I'm sure that at least one of my estimates above is low. So now we are down to $3,000.

And we haven't even touched discretionary spending, like vacations, nights out, credit card payments on overspending months, dry cleaning, lawn service, house maintenance/repairs, etc., etc.

So with all of that said, after putting a little into college savings, I am not remotely surprised that they have nothing left over for fun. Among their problems includes saddling themselves with such a large mortgage and high car payments in the first place. The bigger house also comes with other bigger expenses. The cars are depreciating assets, yet they are plowing $1,500+ per month into them (assuming higher insurance on that Mercedes, which I'm sure is the case).

Let's hope that those two don't get divorced or lose and income anytime soon.

To be middle-class is to live locked in competition with thy neighbor for social legitimacy.

SJG

Thin Lizzy Thunder and Lightning Tour - The Last Filmed Performance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqQHbBPY…

http://d.gr-assets.com/books/1172330188l…

SJG

For the sake of the article/study they had to put a monetary figure on the 'middle class' label. I think to most people it's more about lifestyle than how much money you actually make.

I have friends who drive nice cars, have a good job, live in a nice place, go out a fair bit, etc. Most would call these people middle class, but in truth they're carrying $40K in student debt and shuffling $5K around on credit cards. They're essentially broke.

Also, as others have addressed, the numbers in the article don't really account for cost of living.

http://www.eltbooks.com/cover/9780199552…

SJG

"Let's hope that those two don't get divorced or lose and income anytime soon."
------------------------------------------
Let's hope they don't get sick with cancer or heat disease, since medical bills are the most common reason for bankruptcy. Who knows where the country is going at this point with healthcare laws?

Wwwwaaaaaaaaahhh! I'm not middle class, boo hoo!

Everything these days is about how someone else is living their life. WTF cares?

*heart

This thread reminds me of a joke I heard a hundred or so years ago it goes like this

Three little old ladies are sitting outside their condo in Miami beach playing Canasta, and chatting, soon enough the conversation turns to their sons, and how successful they are,
The first lady, Mildred says my son is doing so well, he is a doctor, and makes millions and for my ninetieth birthday he sent me on an all expenses paid cruise, around the world ,Esther says wow, how wonderful and Gertrude says fantastic,
Now it's Esther's turn ans she chimes in with "my son is doing so well, he's an attorney he makes millions and millions and for my ninetieth birthday, he sent me on an extended vacation, to Europe and where I met the Queen of England, The Pope and so many other famous people, both Mildred and Esther say wonderful and again Gertrude says fantastic.
So now the two other ladies turn to Gertrude, and ask what about your son ? Gertrude starts slowly and she says "ladies i really don't like to brag , but my son Marvin is a plumber, he does O.K., but for my ninetieth birthday he sent me to a ladies finishing school where they taught me to say fantastic instead of bullshit",

well, no lap dances = no LDK, so of course you have to be getting lap dances.