How long do you talk before you get a dance? (Trigger warning: SW content)

I would be happy with anything more than the "wana dance" routine. Most of the clubs I frequent, that's all you'll get and she's off the the next customer.

I'll talk to them for a few minutes and if they haven't asked me yet to go to VIP, I'll ask them if I like them.

I think if you added up all my club visit conversations for the last year in their entirety I wouldn't have talked for 60-90 minutes *combined* to all the dancers I lapped with. In all seriousness, what on earth do you guys talk to these girls about for that length of time? I think over 25 years of lapping I've met, maybe 5-6 dancers with whom I've had regular, extended conversations.

I'm there to get my lap on. Anything beyond "Wanna dance" and she's talking way the fuck too much for me. (And yes, I know I'm in the minority on this one.)

CP

I've always liked day (afternoon) shift better than night, so it can be a different dynamic if comparing the two.

But I'd say I try to talk to a girl for a few drinks (maybe an hours worth?) before deciding on a VIP trip.

SW girls are all about the hustle (and they hypocrically call those of us on TUSCL the lowest of the low). There can be a lot of bullshiting and embellishing going on here, but most of the time we know who's blowing smoke and we call them on it.

SW girls all act like a pack of wolves protecting their own even when they know it's bullshit by a poster. But divide them from the pack and their tune and demeanor quickly change to what's best for them individually.

It really depends on the club and more importantly, the dancer.
I can hold a conversation with just about anyone, and usually enjoy chatting with a perspective dancer for at least 10 - 15 minutes before agreeing to a dance. But there are occasionally girls who are just impossible to chat with. They either have no people skills or are happy to sit at your table and stare without talking. When that happens (and there are just too many awkward silences) then I'll take her right away for dances (if she's hot) or I'll excuse myself to the ladies room and not return to that table (if she's not hot).

And I almost forgot - FUCK THOSE SW TWATS!
(I hope they read THAT and report it back to the SkankNest)

-->"In all seriousness, what on earth do you guys talk to these girls about for that length of time?"

I tend to do shots with them, and we talk about ... well, I dunno what, but I totally enjoy it. Keep in mind, as time goes on there's groping at the table -- in fact, I get incomparably more contact at the table than for the useless 2-for-$60 lapdances at the no-extras clubs I go to (I only do VIP dances because of that). But honestly, the groping is just a side benefit. We do shots. We talk shit. We tell stories about the last time we got fucked up, we tell sex stories, we talk about the local bars, we swap funny stories from our respective experiences as a PL and dancer, whatever.

-->"But there are occasionally girls who are just impossible to chat with. They either have no people skills or are happy to sit at your table and stare without talking. When that happens (and there are just too many awkward silences) then I'll take her right away for dances (if she's hot)"

I can open most of them up, even the shy ones, but even for me there are girls with too little personality or too much GPS. In those cases, even if she's hot, I give her her walking papers; no interest in dancing with a girl I'm not having fun with

Also: lol @ skanknest!

im kind of a shy guy until I know someone a little better so usually when it's a dancer I haven't met before it's usually just pretty brief small talk (introduction, how her day is going, etc) and then at that point they usually ask if I want a dance or I ask for a dance. But if she's better at carrying a conversation for a bit then I'll talk a little longer.

I usually only visited with a dancer for more than a few minutes before getting dances if it was one of my favorites.

Back when I saw my ATF in the club we would usually sit and drink/talk for an hour and then go several dances, come back out and talk for another hour and then do an hour VIP.

I go to $5 black dives in Miami so for the most-part it's 75% "wanna-a-dance" - which I actually prefer b/c I wanna get w/ as many different dancers as I find attractive and can afford thus talking cuts into my dance time which is how I prefer to spend my time.

Not that I don't find having a good convo w/ a dancer enjoyable, it's just not my main motivation in a club (w/ my main motivation being getting my grind and groping on).

In clubs w/ more expensive dances I have to pace my dance getting and I tend to talk w/ dancers a bit more but still don't mind the wanna-a-dance if I want her - and it's usually the dancer that's the one that starts the convo - I never grab a dancer so I can talk to her for a while.

Thus in the cheap dance clubs prefer not to have convos so I can be getting dances, in the more expensive dances clubs don't mind the convo but don't go in looking for it either.

But, I can see the merits of sticking to one dancer and conversing w/ her, it's just that most of the clubs I hit in Miami the girls are not big on convo (but big in butts :)) and are not very good w/ the convo thing so often not even worth it trying to have a decent convo.

There are some clubs like Inner Room in Cocoa Beach where many of the dancers are very friendly and often times you can talk to them for up to 30-minutes while you grope them w/o them often not even bringing up dances (I don't mind that type of "convo").

I usually want to chat for at least 30 minutes. I almost never purchase standard lap dances, though, and will take them to VIP rooms/suites/whatever if they are charming and can hold a conversation. I'm not interested in airheads even if they are a 10.

I use strip clubs as my sports bar so a conversation can be from 10 minutes upwards. Last time I hung out with my ATF it was two hours before we hit the CR. I drank, she drank water, we watched a basketball game and chatted. Then we took advantage of the smoking area for a round of dabs, weed and hash. CR then home. 2:25 total time spent.

About 30 minutes. It's a working class area and the dancers want the PL to feel that he's getting value for his or her money. Plus I'm pretty easy to talk to.

Chili Palmer --> "In all seriousness, what on earth do you guys talk to these girls about for that length of time?"

We talk like we're on a date together. Sometimes it's light cocktail talk. Often times she's turn up the seduction, which is nice. We trade funny or embarrassing stories. Sometimes she'll have questions about science and technology, so we might talk about that.

Honestly, the main reason is because it's cheaper per hour to talk than to just get laps. Dances are $10 for 2.5 minutes for 1-way contact and convo is $60/hr. I used to pay $120/hr, but the dancers told me I was paying them too much. If you read SW, that would be impossible, but there you go.

Truth be told, I'd rather just go for the laps but that will have to wait until I'm older and more financially secure.

Sometimes I don't talk much at all, sometimes the dancers who have talked to me before want to sit, talk and drink with me all night long. Apparently I must be a good story teller after a few drinks. I might not remember what I talked about though. More than half the time, we are just sitting and watching and drinking and enjoying the stage shows or at a minimum I am. I did tell a story that was so good one time that the dancer told a few other dancers and wanted me to talk about it when she saw me again a week later. I could not remember anything. I suspect the story involved aliens. They must have gotten to me and erased my memory during the week.

Of course I go to a church service and a relative asks me what the priest talked about less than 60 minutes later and I have said, I don't remember several times. I will try to remember for at least 60 minutes.

As far as strip clubs go, I could talk about whatever is on my mind.
For example I could ask her if she heard about the super volcano getting ready to erupt in Italy that will kill about a million people or more when it blows. That might be if I've talked to her several times already. I try to avoid sad news that hasn't happened yet if I don't know anything about her. For all I know, the eruption could be 10 or 20 years from now and just be a regular eruption and not block out sunlight across the globe for years. It might be nothing to worry about. Plus she might not be interested in buying survival food and becoming a prepper just because a super volcano might blow. On the other hand, if the world is going to end, might be a good time to hook up with me and have some fun before the world ends.

my style is exactly like yours, subra. i'll have them sit with me for an hour before getting dances. i just like drinking and chatting with them first. one night i ordered a bucket of beer and just sat with my fav and watched football for like an hour and a half before getting dances.

If I might actually be interested in going out with a dancer, I could ask her more sneaky questions like other places around town like regular bars or clubs that she thinks might be good. If she's a country music fan and the other club plays a lot of country music, I draw the line. I'm not going there unless someone drags me there and then if they do, I'm not going to want to stay long. Some of my friends wanted to visit a couple regular clubs one night and one place was a club playing country music. One girl in the club recognized me and wanted to talk. I talked but not for long. Country music is like someone scratching nails on a chalkboard to me.

the only exception to what i said above is at clubs that have cheap dances. cheap, meaning, dances that are 10 bucks or less. i've been to both follies and fuego multiple times (10 dollar dance clubs) and the one thing i've noticed is that dancers are much less likely to sit around for long periods of time with custies. now that's not to say that it doesn't happen, but it just doesn't seem to happen as often as it does at clubs where the majority of dances are more expensive--like when most of the dances are sold in blocks of time ( 15 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour etc)

in other words, at clubs where most of the dances are sold in blocks of time...the dancers are more likely to sit for a long time. but at clubs that have dances that are 10 bucks or less.........they tend to move along rather quickly

I used to not really like conversating with them, but I kinda like it now. I would say I would like to talk to them for at least 15 min before getting a dance. I know they are there to make money, and I don't want to waste their time, so if I ask her to sit at my table, then probably small chit chat for 5 or so min, then I'll ask for a dance. If she comes and sits down next to me without me requesting it, then I would like some conversation before I entertain the possibility of getting a dance.

In the clubs w/ the cheap dances even if the girls try talking to me I pretty much don't pay atention to them and just start groping them and then they just think "oh you're ready" and get to taking their clothes off and start grinding on me w/o even asking me if I want a dance but I guess my intentions are pretty obvious (I'm such an easy slut) - in the clubs w/ the more expensive dances I tend to take my time and grope them less b/c I can't be constantly getting dances

Keep in mind, on SW, that's rather have to do no work and have you just come in and lay money at their feet. Of course they don't want to talk; talking makes them no money and decreases throughput. But yeah, as a guy, I think some talk should be had so she gets to know you and you her.

I will say anywhere between 5-15 min. is enough. If the conversation is interesting and you both want to roll with it, so be it. If it's not, however, have an out if you decide you either don't want to talk or get dances, as then, you're just wasting both people's time.

It depends on the club and the girl, but in general, about the 10 minute mark is when I start wanting to get a dance. And yes, I can very much talk about anything.

I like to talk to strippers, but it's hard for them to answer with their mouths full.

Of course with my regulars we chat a lot. With a newbie, I talk to them long enough to make sure I don't find them annoying and they seem to be sexually motivated (yes they just want my money but they have to be a good actress at least!) Usually by 5 minutes I know if I want a dance or shoo them away.

The one exception was last time I went....last Fri? It was after midnight and the club was packed. I didn't see my night regulars but I did see the most beautiful girl I've ever seen anywhere! And I don't say that lightly. She was busy with her regulars and I just couldn't help but stare at her. It wasn't creepy as the room was so crowded she couldn't have noticed.

Eventually she walked by, I caught her eye, she smiled and said Hi and I whisked her off to the CR before I even caught her name! That was a first for me. Her dances were actually not great but she was friendly and engaging so it was well worth the time and money. I hope she's there next time!

So the way to totally diffuse this SW type of thinking is to pick the girl yourself and get her making out with you, front room. That way you know you have gotten under her skin.

But be careful, doing it that way you will likely end up waking up with her the next morning.

SJG

As long as it takes for her to make me nut. It's usually just confirming she's doing a good job.

When visiting my CF, we would usually drink and talk for about 30 minutes.
She has a great personality and we talk about everything under the sun.
I usually have to ask her to go to the dance room.
It's a low hustle club, at least during the afternoon.

With dancers I don't know, it's usually just small talk to get to know each other, then she'll ask for a dance.

If "dance" is a euphemism for "blow job", usually around 30 seconds. Enough to ask "Spit or swallow" and get an answer.

Are you going to marry or what? Max 5 mins. Sometimes to kill time I talked for hours, for ld, it is all money

Q) why do women have vaginas
A) who’d talk to them if they didn’t

Haha it's the official Subraman's Old Threads Day on tuscl. Thanks champ!!

Years later, my answer remains the same: 60 minutes or more to first VIP dance

The paradox of this is that PLs who espouse strong negative stereotypes of strippers also seem to be the ones who insist the stripper has to "earn" the dance by talking to them (thus losing out on selling dances to others) for a while. Why does some anyone want to talk to someone they think is a stupid loser?

I wanna dance strippers withing 30 seconds if they don't do it to me. We chat during the dance. Usually don't click that much as far as having great convo. But it's not rare either. In which case, they'll come around and hang with me if it they can't be making more $ anyway. When they do this, I'll ask them why they don't seem to have taken a run at certain customers who don't have any dancer with them. Generally, they have a good reason. Sometimes they don't have a good reason, so I'll pep talk them into taking their shot. Your welcome.

^ My misogyny is humor based, I actually love women and as someone else said isn’t today National Vagina Day?

"The paradox of this is that PLs who espouse strong negative stereotypes of strippers also seem to be the ones who insist the stripper has to "earn" the dance by talking to them (thus losing out on selling dances to others) for a while. Why does some anyone want to talk to someone they think is a stupid loser?"

ilb, who are the specific posters you have in mind for this claim. I'm not reading through this whole thread again, but did a quick skim, and the few guys who want her to sit with them for a while (including me) don't espouse strong negative stereotypes, though I'm not reading every response. It also feels like "earn" is your word, an SW-like attempt to try to cast "this is the experience I'm looking for" into something sinister...

It's usually the girls who want to chat with me before dancing lulz

@Sub maybe I'm generalizing too much, but certainly there are many here who both describe strippers as typically losers, yet complain about wanna dance dancers. My ignore list has about 100 handles, mostly for having a malignant attitude towards dancers. (Who knows how many are sock puppets of course.) If this were tuppl.net (The Ultimate Pizza Place List), they'd go on and on about how terrible mozzarella cheese is.

This is a very club specific question. At the club I’m at right now, I “wanna dance” right from stage and they need to be spending real money if they want me to bother talking to them. At others, I’m way more lenient.

But even in my home club where it’s really slow paced, if it’s someone I don’t know, I still pitch within 3-5 songs and will walk if he either says no or doesn’t give any other indication that he’s gonna spend anything. After he’s “established” and I know what to expect from him, then he can control the pace as he likes without complaints from me. But I mean, c’mon, at least one song or even tipping at the table to just show some goodwill is perfectly fair.

Ya, Probably not going to work if I peacock in at midnight on Saturday, meet a busy stripper who has no idea who I am, and demand she sit with me for an hour. There's a lot of context... if I do a rare busy nightshift, I realize I'm paying some way or other within 5-10 minutes; that's why I dont' like busy nightshifts. But in general, I come in at 1pm on Monday when it's dead and few or no other customers to sit with anyway, and every girl there except the newbies have seen me 1000 times and know I sit and drink and do lunch and then we go off to VIPs. I'm a pretty known quantity except for the newest girls -- with the new girls, I'll often assure them "we're going to do a bunch of VIPs after this" so at least they know there's a pot of copper at the end of the rainbow

^^^ and of course if I'm meeting my CF, she knows the whole deal

Subraman comes across controlling and creepy af

Also, I can tell if a stripper is lying if I cup her boobs in my hands while she's talking. It's like Wonder Woman's Lasso of Truth. But you can only do that during a lap dance, and it isn't free.

@nice if you sit with a customer for 5 songs before they get any lap dances, how much do you need to make off them for you to see it as worth your time?

Subra - I've always wondered. Do you tell the dancers about the sixty minute rule or do they have to figure it out for themselves?

LW, I don't tell anyone rules. When she comes over, we order a drink or two, I offer to buy lunch, it's easily an hour by the time we're done. As I told nice, the girls at my regular club have all seen me do this 1000 times, and the newbies I assure we'll do VIPs when we're done. I can't pull this off at some random club during a busy shift, but that's thing -- I SC at one or two clubs where I'm a known regular. There's no negotiation required, it just happens.

—>“@nice if you sit with a customer for 5 songs before they get any lap dances, how much do you need to make off them for you to see it as worth your time?”

That is a tough one. How busy is the club at that moment? Did he ask me what days I generally work and did we exchange numbers? (A maybe to future money) How did he act during the dances or while chatting? Etc

I have certain standards like that I set for myself. Because I have adhd and clubs tend to sometimes have alcohol and marijuana—which is another thing to look out for because it can distract my brain. I have to draw a line somewhere or else I’ll be off in lalala land and then “oh crap, I haven’t made what I wanted to make”—any rules I impose on myself are for me, not him. If I wasted too much time, I generally blame myself and chalk it up to a learning experience and think of how I can do better in the future.

If I’m stone cold sober, feeling 100% confident about my body and ability to attract money, and my brain isn’t steering me to be bogged down by random thoughts like how dogs evolved alongside humans, and then thinking about aromatherapy and essential oils, and then thinking about that book of crossword puzzles on the shelf that I haven’t touched in a couple of months, etc etc…
Then I wouldn’t even worry about following any standards or rules that other strippers came up with before me. My intuition is going to be good enough at that point.

If it was a few years ago, I’d have probably been more direct with your question and say $100 minimum or something. But now I guess my mindset has changed? But I make more money consistently than I used to, so it is what it is?

I say that if you want the girl to do your bidding you approach her and just start handing her money. Try for the per song dance rate. And it will be better because their is no house cut.

And you can make up excuses to hand her money, so that it doesn't look like you are trying to buy anything or low bid anything.

Mostly you just want her to listen and let things get friendly.

And it strip clubs if you are open and honest with all the things a girl wants to know but knows she should not ask, usually girls that are not seriously attached will soon be eating out of your hand.

This costs money, but you pick the one you want so that you don't have to do this very often.

SJG

Even though Subraman frequents the San Francisco bath houses with SJG, (and there’s nothing rong with that) really Subra is one of the nicest and non-confrontational cats on here.

… and dickless Icee is even starting shit with him. Like it’s not bad enough you’re bragging about supporting Russia you gotta fuck with Subra now too? Please just go play in traffic and leave everyone here alone. I mean really how do you wake up and look at yourself in the mirror everyday? Everyone must hate your guts IRL for you to find the need to come on an anonymous strip club message board and belittle every single member on here. They can’t help that their life is 100 times better than yours. Jesus your dad must be rolling in his grave because his son is the king of pieces of shit. Can’t even keep a heroin addicted girlfriend, has to constantly make up stories daily on here to compensate for your 2 inch dick. Please seek professional help, and if that doesn’t work just stay off the internet. Not one single fucking soul will miss you. Trust me. Even 25 and Gammanu can agree you’re a dickless spineless turd.

Subraman goes to bath houses??? 😭😭🤣🤣

Then fucks hookers. That's as risky as prison sex.

Never had a heroin addicted gf. And subrafag started shit with me way back.

I'm not being nice to anyone being an asshole to me.

But he's creepy af being so controlling

This is the week of “Too Many Variables” topics.

If you think girls aren’t sitting with you long enough you can thank the fucks who have no intentions of spending money and have come in for free entertainment only to jade the dancers into a “not this time, buddy” state of mind.

There are too many variables to answer this, however.

If a girl sits with you you should be tipping her.

I’m with Chili Palmer on this. 30 seconds is enough for me. I know my situation is unique, but I’m not at the club to make friends or because I’m lonely. I’m there exclusively for the sexual stimulation.

"But he's creepy af being so controlling"

Listen, I'm not "get a stripper hooked on drugs, isolate them from their friends, and beat them" controlling, but I'm working up to it! lol

Nah you're a I'm giving you money so you gave to do what I say type weirdo

You're a I'm pretending to be a pimp and beat women and get them hooked on drugs but I'm also an enlightened social justice warrior who is all about respecting women weirdo. Stop being so modest, you're at a whole level of creepiness most of us could only aspire to!

I don't beat women and don't hook anyone on drugs. I've helped a few get off drugs with harm reduction techniques.

You think money entitles you to act like you own a woman. That's not respect nor social justice. And you're a whiny bitch.

Stick to sucking dick in bathhouses

lol watch out you're going to start going incoherent again icey!

And yes, duh, obviously you're not beating, drugging, or "managing" women... or helping any get off drugs with harm reduction techniques lol! You just pretend you do: https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=5853…

But you really suck dick in bath houses and think paying a hoe means she has to do what you say.

"Turn the conversation to drugs. Hook her up with whatever she’s into. Better yet, get high with her...

...Its in your best interest to take control of her drug use from the start. Make sure she does the minimum to get fucked up."

^^^@Iceydodo LMFAO when you say you don't get them hooked on drugs. Have you changed your mind since you posted this.

Contradictory clown. 🤭🤡

"And yes, duh, obviously you're not beating, drugging, or "managing" women... or helping any get off drugs with harm reduction techniques lol! You just pretend you do:"

@Subra LMAO well played. Now she's changing the subject back to you. 😂

https://tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=7636…

I think when Iceydodo calls Subra controlling and creepy she's actually projecting. In this thread she made a while back she admits her stripper whore left her for being (LOL) CONTROLLING.

Here are a couple of quotes:

"My 5 year relationship ended because she thought I was too controlling..."

"She called me controlling and obsessive for finding everything out and wanting her to come back to me."

🤭🤡

Is it the same dude dusting off all the old Subra threads or did he win a contest?

@Wallanon it's the same dude.

Yeah, same dude. No idea what that's about, but these old SW vs tuscl perspective threads, I personally think are pretty fun. I had honestly completely forgotten I'd ever done that, I haven't been on SW in years but maybe it's time for a trip back. I've enjoyed Bubbleyum's r/stripper comparison threads also, actually

But you really suck dick in bath houses and think paying a hoe means she has to do what you say.

Hook up with sjg and give each other prostate massages. You're in the same area like the same things

Still one hand clapping
Is Big bubba Iceefags newest psuedonym ? (emphasis on the psuedo)

Howdy hoe hoe hoe old timer. How's that whiskey treating you today?

That icee is a jive turkey.

@nice why tf would would you ever not feel confident about your body? Is it cause you don't have a bubble butt? I think most PLs would agree that being a C cup plus contributes more to attractiveness than having a bubble butt. Being Filipino is a big advantage with PLs 60 and over. They generally at least knew a navy guy who was stationed at Subic, and can't ever stop raving about Filipino chicks.

Is it hard to not gain weight when you're traveling?

That's right. Us old timers got fond memories of Asian hookers from the military and the Vietnam War.

I don't have a set time. Sometimes I feel like talking more than other times. If she feels that talking to me is wasting her time, I get it. She's there to make money, not friends. If I'm talking too long for her liking, I don't have a problem with her leaving me alone. I wish car salesman would adopt this approach.

I’d say on avg having convo w/ a dancer often helps get better QoS – the dancer can get a chance to feel more comfortable w/ you by getting to know you a bit and this may lead her to be more comfortable w.r.t. dances etc.

Of course nothing is universal – there can be times when what you say or what she says may actually lead to liking the person less.

I’ve also had situations where we were engaged in good convo – on avg women like to talk – so what’s happened is that once we start getting dances etc she’s already in a talking-mood and wants/likes to continue talking when it’s time to get busy instead – not a huge deal since you can tell her “we can talk afterwards” and that usually solves the issue.

So on avg I’d say having a convo w/ a dancer usually helps – but I tend to be a bit impatient and even more so when I’m horny – so there are times when I actually prefer she’d stop talking and get to it and just tell me she wants to dance/fuck me – also since I’m a variety PL, spending too-much time talking means I may miss-out on getting w/ other dancers I wanna get with.

In my original 2017 post I posted:

“… I go to $5 black dives in Miami so for the most-part it's 75% "wanna-a-dance" …”

In my latest post I posted:

“… since I’m a variety PL, spending too-much time talking means I may miss-out on getting w/ other dancers I wanna get with …”


This reminds me of a visit circa 2017 at my go-to $5/dance black-dive – as I previously posted, in these dives you usallly won’t get more than a 1-minute convo b/f the girl needs to start making some $$$ off you or find someone else given the low-dance-cost.

So circa 2017 I was at my go-to $5/dance black-dive on a late afternoon (my usual time) – there was an attractive ebony dancer that was new to the club and was visiting from out of town – I guess she wasn’t used-to dancing in $5/dance dives so she was talking to me as if she needed to convince me to buy a $5 dance or as if she was interviewing me to be her BF – she was going on and on and on and I was getting bored and just wanted the “club special” (great grinding 2-way-contact dances) – i.e. the M.O. of this dive was the girl approaching you, asking if you wanted a dance, you said yes, she dropped her clothes and started grinding on you and your hands where on her right-away, all this in the space of a minute or at least till the next (cut) song started.

The vets at this club knew my M.O. – i.e. I didn’t need to be sweet-talked – I would either say yes or no when approached for dances and was a pretty-good-spender per the particular club – so the vet-dancers knew I was good for automatic-$$$ and I didn’t require any pre-dance nor post-dance time; they’d get their $$$ with a good tip (for the club) and they would go on their way to get more business – anyway the out-of-town ebony was talking and talking and two of the vets were eye-balling me the whole time waiting till I was free so they could come get their$ - the newbie chick would not stop talking and finally the vets both moved in on me while this chick was still talking to me (I guess the vets were fed-up being cock-blocked by the newbie) – the 2-vets were touching me all over while the newbie chick was sitting next to me – finally the newbie I guess feeling the pressure finally asked me if I wanted some dances – I said yes basically to get on with it and I did wanna get dances w/ her – the dances were alright – she was more attractive than the vets but after the newbie dancers both vets moved-in “for the real dances (UHM)”.