OT: Gender Bathrooms - Someone Please Clarify...

It doesn't matter how you feel or what you think is right or wrong or what you believe, the light movement wont stop until they have their way.

*lgbt

Crazyjoe could be the terror of the ladies room

What some places are doing, and I am on board with this, is keeping women and men's bathrooms as usual, but adding a "gender inclusive" bathroom that is open to all genders.

My university recently did this when the completely rebuilt their student center. There are women's bathrooms and men's bathrooms, and there is also now a gender inclusive bathroom as well. I used it when it first opened, just to check it out. Lol

^^^ yeah I could see it now:

1. 4Got standing in there, "would you like me to wipe your ass for you?"

2. Crazyjoe throwing cups of water on everyone using a bathroom stall.

Ldk giving a tranny a hj.

That target statement actually triggered my thought and post that I made regarding TS strippers. It's funny (not funny) how most women have been the one to complain about this stuff, but most single guys without children or female family members aren't as vocal. This affects everybody.

Lots of small businesses - like convenience stores - only have one restroom. It has a lock on the door and is typically used by one person at a time. That person can be any of the human gender options currently available.^^^SJG might find this format to be the most discrete...

Remember Ally McBeals coed restroom?

Nina +1

It's a very murky subject. Despite what some may think, it is simply a case of a TG person wanting to use the restroom of the gender that they transitioned to, not the gender that they were born with. If they are post-op, then it's really a no-brainer. The issue gets muddy if a TG is pre-op and still sporting their original package. What Nina mentioned is the only real solution.....but it will mean a remodeling cost burden for many businesses to install a 3rd restroom that is genderless (can be used by anyone).

And you are right about one thing, chessmaster - the LGBT community will always fight for equality.

I'm actually all for lgbt rights. But gender identity(you're a man that claims to be a woman or vice verse) is something i dont believe in. Just because you're a man that wants to be a woman or thinks he's a woman(key words) I dont want him/her/It in the bathroom/locker room/dorm room with my sister(she's about to start college, so try to understand my perspective) or mom or cousin or girlfriend or wife or daughter for that matter. If you were born as a male you are not a woman regardless of how much you would like to be. And ps, I honestly have nothing against gays and lesbians. My true gripe is with transgender or transexuals(i don't even know the difference, not that I care to).

Yeah I know that the whole transgender thing is complicated. And of course I understand the concerns. But what is the solution? I still say that if a person has completely transitioned (including gemital surgery) they should use the restroom of their brand spanking new naughty bits. It's the pre-op situation that has everyone all in a tizzy. If a pre-op male-to-female person uses a men's room, they are gonna get their ass kicked in there, looking female on the outside and still sporting a shlong. And if they use the ladies room, they are deemed a threat to the women in there. Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place. If you have any empathy at all you have to realize how hard that is on them. It must be difficult enough going thru the transition and now you got no where to pee! The only real solution is a 3rd restroom. Hopefully businesses will agree and offer to add one.

If you have a penis, go the the men's room. It you have a vagina, go to the women's restroom. If you don't feel comfortable going to your restroom, go behind a bush.

Except it's not that easy. They wont accept a 3rd bathroom, they want full access to the restroom of their choosing. So 1 day they claim to be a woman in the women's room, then the next day they go back to the men's room(if they want to) like nothing's changed?! To me that's what it sounds like they want. I agree the logical answer would be a unisex or "gender neutral" restroom but that's not what they want.

My understanding is that they would be more than happy with a 3rd option. The problem is with the mandate coming down in places like NC that demands that they use the bathroom of their birth sex. But what if a man no longer has a dick, and instead now has a vajayjay? As repugnant as that may be for some to consider, it is just as repugnant to expect that person to continue to use a men's room. And that is exactly what that law demands in NC. Now if that TG still has his dick, then he's just fucked. Literally & figuratively.

A unisex restroom would make everyone happy, including TG's.

Are you confused about your gender shailynn?

Nice rainbow avitar

In typical cretin fashion, I find the male side of this easy. If a transgender male wants to use the mens room, no skin off my nose. Any theoretical concern is transgender women using the women's room... or is it? Here's where my thinking gets sloppy. Just a guess, most people who have concerns, those concerns aren't as much about transgender women as it is the notion that the mere claim of gender identity is all that's needed to get legal cover to enter the women's room... that seems like an awfully low bar, couldn't anyone walk into the women's room and then just claim they identify as female? Isn't there legitimate interest in this topic by the state?

In my sloppy thinking state of mind, I don't even think the state of a trans woman's genitals matters at all, whether they have original equipment or refurbished, if they're truly a trans woman, they use the ladies room. Perhaps in an ideal world, having a higher bar than "I identify as XYZ" is what's needed... if there were a legal mechanism to get your gender legally changed, that required as much commitment as going to court to legally change your name, you can imagine that's something a committed transmale or transfemale would do, but perhaps not your everyday perv who sneaks into a Ladies room. I dunno.

"Are you confused about your gender shailynn?"

Joe I have nuts, and I use them - so I'm not confused about myself - just others!

"Nice rainbow avitar"

Juice was trying to classify what color whale were you - corresponding to how much money you spent in the club. Since I'm all over the place, I chose a multi-colored whale.

The marina where we keep our boat has converted virtually all of their "normal" bathrooms (ie. Three or four stalls, two or three showers and a line of sinks) in men's and women's flavors to all unisex, individual restrooms, each totally self contained with a toilet, shower, sink and a foldaway seat, along with plenty of hooks. The amazing thing is that there are still the same total number of toilets, and more showers. The best thing is that only one unit is cleaned at a given time, rather than having an entire men's or women's room closed for a half hour at a time. We did a similar thing when we were designing the heads for the "point design" for the new Coast Guard patrol boat. The concept makes total sense and eliminates all gender concerns.

What bathroom does a gay whale use?

Thank you lopaw for providing some insight into issues we don't always understand.

But why was Curt Schilling fired by ESPN? What makes his opinion "wrong" and the PC opinion "right"? If expresses an opinion that he doesn't want a guy with a dick in his daughter's bathroom, that's his opinion. Why is he fired for it?

When I visited Sweden I was at a Mall everyone was walking into the same restroom..... I said Okaaaay... inside was a row of about 10 separate small self contained rooms with full locking doors with their own sinks.... more expensive to build but all problems solved.

I was in Paris a few years ago in a restaurant bathroom, standing at the urinal. A group of 3 young women come walking by and go into bathroom stalls. For a moment I was a little shocked until I recalled having read that some bathrooms in France were unisex. If I had spoken French I would've flirted with them from the urinal.

"But why was Curt Schilling fired by ESPN? What makes his opinion "wrong" and the PC opinion "right"? If expresses an opinion that he doesn't want a guy with a dick in his daughter's bathroom, that's his opinion. Why is he fired for it?"

I'm going to be uncharacteristically serious.

There is a simple answer to this. The "right" answer for ESPN is the one that maximizes revenues for their channel and its owners (Disney).

ESPN doesn't care about Curt Schilling or being PC or whatever. If I recall correctly, Schilling posted some anti-LGBT message. At that point, some executive did the following calculus: will it hurt revenues? what are the costs associated with firing him? If they think he will cost more in lost revenues than it would cost to jettison him he's out.

It's a little more complicated because it may be Disney putting pressure on ESPN, but it still comes down to whether his bosses think Schilling going to be a net money-maker or money-loser for them. Nothing more.

If tweeting anti-LGBT stuff was revenue-neutral Schilling would still have his job. If it increased revenues ESPN would hire a team to help him write anti-LGBT tweets.

If a dude who says he feels like a lady tries to go into a bathroom that my little girls or even my wife are in, I'll cave his fucking head into a wall. See how discriminated against he feels then. I wholeheartedly support the NC law and I look forward to it spreading to more states. There are too many sick perverts out there for me to be ok with allowing any dude who wants to go into a female bathroom to do so.

Now with that said, I would be wholeheartedly in favor of a third bathroom solution. Nobody should need to fear simply using a toilet. But if you make me choose between allowing any dude with balls and a penis into my girls' bathroom or taking a rigid stance that might not be transgender friendly, I will choose the latter every time.

We should get rid of gender specific bathrooms entirely. It's inefficient and serves no purpose. We had co-ed bathrooms when I was in college in the Stone Age and no one complained. You get used to it. Europe has gender neutral bathrooms...why are we always behind the curve in America?

Wow you really are a clueless shitbag ,dugan.

"And ps, I honestly have nothing against gays and lesbians. My true gripe is with transgender or transexuals(i don't even know the difference, not that I care to)."

If you have a 'true gripe' with trans people, then why are you saying you're all for LGBT rights? Perhaps you should say you're all for LGB rights without the T, as you then go on to dismiss their gender identity by saying you don't care to know the difference between the two. (Transgender is an umbrella term for people whose gender identities don't conform to the social constructs of gender based on what sex they were born as. Transsexuals are people who have at least partially medically changed their actual sex, through hormones, surgery, etc).

Please. Don't say you support a community and then ostracize group in that community that faces the most violence, sexual abuse, and social stigma.

rock, it's one thing to do that in a college, where everyone is an adult, there are often restrictions upon access by outside persons and there are a limited number of people using the restrooms. It is quite another to do that at a Walmart, or a family entertainment venue, or a gym, just to name a few. We would also have to do away with the urinal system, leading to much longer lines for guys who just have to piss. Imagine removing the urinals from the bathrooms at ballparks for example - what a nightmare that would be.

sclvr, i guess you aren't a father. if you were, you might have a different outlook on whether you wanted a dude in the stall next to your little girl in the women's bathroom.

It all comes down to economics, some small businesses don't have the funds to add a third bathroom others don't have the space so my guess is the solution is unisex bathrooms maybe eliminating open urinals and stalls and making the bathrooms in such a way to allow each stall to close for privacy. Just my take on this tempest in a teapot.

"If a dude who says he feels like a lady tries to go into a bathroom that my little girls or even my wife are in, I'll cave his fucking head into a wall. See how discriminated against he feels then. "

(S)he will probably feel very discriminated against, as (s)he will then know what it feels like to be the victim of a hate crime. But since trans people are already subjected to the most violence and abuse out of any other group in the LGBT community, there's a good chance that SHE already has faced wackos who would rather pound her head into a wall because they have to resort to violence to prove their own "masculinity," even when she is posing no threat besides trying to use a bathroom and not have things like THAT happen to her.

Well Nina, at least HE will not be sharing a stall next to my 6 year old girl. And if I can recognize him as a male when he tries to enter, then the odds are good that he still has his penis and balls attached. The only thing I "hate" is the notion that grown men can enter a girls' room at will. it is bad enough that we have guys like Jared trying to lure girls into hotel rooms - now we want to give him unfettered access to the bathrooms that these girls use. How twisted is that.

"I imagine 4Got is going to move in the womens restroom at Victoria's Secret". Lol, that's hillarious.

C'mon Dugan we get that you are a tough guy, but really in a public restroom. BTW what kind of a parent sends a small child to use the facilities unattended, you seem kind of stupid to me.

You don't know what you're talking about twenty. My two older girls are too old to come into the mens room with me, so when we are out without their mother I have to send them in alone. Then I guard the door and listen carefully and, if they are in too long, open the door and yell in to make sure that things are ok. One time they were taking so long that I sent a store employee to go in and check on them.

Rickdugan, I can see that you are too small minded on this subject to understand the difference between Jared, who is a non-trans male sex offender, and an actual transgendered person who just wants to use the restroom of the gender he or she identifies with. Imagine a transgendered female being forced to use the men's bathroom; that is where she will be ridiculed at the very least, if not beaten or even raped and killed (yes, it does happen, and trans women get raped too). Trans people are subject to this violence all the time, and people like you perpetuate it. So just as you are worried for your daughter's safety, trans people are worried for their own. But god forbid we recognized this and god forbid we even give them the same rights to safety and the same social acceptance that your daughter has.

HB2 is the dumbest thing to come out of the NC legislature in years. It was rushed through with little thought or deliberation. Plus they wasted 50K to pass it. I think there's a decent chance it crushed the Governor's chance for re-election. (His own fault, knowledgeable people told him to veto)

Rick, what are you going to do when a post-op looking 100% like a man walks into the bathroom with your little girl? Because that's what the NC law requires.

This is a tough issue without a practical solution. 3rd bathroom options are a good solution but not a practical one. While I respect the rights of transgender people I also don't think they should get to walk over privacy rights of others. I'm also quite certain that unenforceable laws about who can use which bathroom are NOT the answer.

Actually I do (know what I am talking about) and you are talking a lot of shit as usual, you are going to get into a fight, with while your daughter is with you what a jackass statement. If you act the way you say you do here IRL you will get your ass kicked in front of your daughter best case scenario, worst case someone will pull out a gun and your poor little daughter will be in the crossfire, try thinking like a man instead of a thug you jerk.

"Then I guard the door and listen carefully and, if they are in too long, open the door and yell in to make sure that things are ok."

OK well if YOU are uncomfortable with trans women entering public restrooms reserved for your daughters, I am uncomfortable with you standing outside and listening carefully to the public restroom I use, nor do I want a bunch of Rickdugans all over the place OPENING the women's bathroom door. That, to me, is more creepy than a trans person minding their own business and using a fucking bathroom. Why don't we have someone at the door (perhaps you, Rickdgan, since you admit to guarding it) to check everyone's genitals before they enter the bathroom? Why don't we stop everyone and pat them down and check their bags for drugs, weapons, and anything else that could harm your daughter? Oh wait, trans people are the only threats. Hahaha

I'll admit that trannies do make me very uncomfortable.

Nina, it's not about providing equal safety. What you are advocating is trading my daughters' safety for theirs. Of course I'm not on board with that. And since none of us can read minds and can't differentiate between the types of dudes who might try to use the ladies room, one important way to keep them my babies safe is to keep dudes with dicks and balls out of their bathrooms. I have no problems per se with post-op transgenders using the women's room, but I don't want strangers with testicles pumping testosterone within arms reach or my babies while they are vulnerable and it will simply never happen.

Now many bigger places already have third options, which are singe serve "family" restrooms which some places are now converting into inclusive restrooms. I am all in favor of this as it provides trans folks with a safe place to go while also addressing the safety concerns around, in particular, female restrooms.

After reading these comments - and after reading about this issue in other areas - it seems that there isn't a simple solution that will keep everyone comfortable.

The two restroom system - with folks choosing the restroom of the gender they identify with might work best for the transgender community - but (as the father of relatively young daughters) it doesn't work for me.

The three restroom system would make me feel more comfortable. But it seems to make the trabsgender folks uncomfortable for being the outsiders.

I don't care if a trans (genetic) woman decides to use the men's room while I'm there. I am quick when using the restroom and I don't look around at all - so I might not even notice. However, if a trans (genetic) male decides to use the ladies room while one of my daughters is there - I don't want her to see his junk hanging out. You can tell me that she will see junk during her life many times over the years - but I don't want her to be confronted with it in that manner.

I don't think there is an easy answer to this one yet. I'm not in favor of opening things up to everyone - and the use of traditional thinking doesn't work fully either.

I think there needs to be open and honest dialogue regarding this topic. Both sides need to avoid name calling. If I don't want to see non males in the men's room - I shouldn't be called phobic - and I will not cast stones in the direction of folks with differing views - as that's the only way we can work through this issue.

Cash posted: "The three restroom system would make me feel more comfortable. But it seems to make the trabsgender folks uncomfortable for being the outsiders."

Too fucking bad. It addresses the safety issues for all concerned, which is far more important than their delicate feelings.

Rickdugan, by your logic, we should just 86 the use of public restrooms all together. You are really now trying to back track and trivialize your xenophobic statements by basically saying a rapist can pretend to be trans in order to go into the women's room to molest little girls. Guess what? Little boys get raped too, so should non-trans males also be banned from public restrooms? A male who was was born a male can go into the men's bathroom and rape little boys. See your loophole? Being trans has nothing to do with bathroom safety. Unless your little girls' safety is now more important than the safety of little boys, too. Also, should we bad all lesbians from entering public restrooms? So now we are down to no trans in the women's, no non-trans men in the men's room, and no lesbians in the women's room. See how that just makes no sense?

Do you NOT think a trans woman forced to use a men's bathroom would get more unwanted attention than your daughter would get from a trans person?

I am not swapping your daughter's safety for a trans person's. You are using your own personal xenophobia to think that trans people are after your daughter.

Rickdugan - I had hoped the three restroom system would be the answer too. But this makes it obvious who the transgender folks are - and can lead to additional segregation (and possible anti-transgender violence).

I'm not sure where the answer is - but there must be something that works for all. I think some of these corporate postings - like the one from Target - are more economically motivated - and not motivated by inclusion (as they want us to think). It's cheaper to tell folks to use the restroom of the gender you identify with - and it generates positive press too.

"However, if a trans (genetic) male decides to use the ladies room while one of my daughters is there - I don't want her to see his junk hanging out."

Cashman1234, ladies rooms have stalls, not urinals. :)

Nina, the sad reality is that little boys DO get molested in bathrooms sometimes by grown men. But that risk is one of the trade offs we are forced to live with because public restrooms are a necessity. But there is no reason to subject young girls to the same type of exposure or worse. For that matter, do we also want to give would-be rapists easy access to vulnerable grown women?

The fallacy in your argument is the rather silly belief that only truly trans guys will go into women's bathrooms once is becomes acceptable for men to use them. I'm not sure if I should call that naive or stupid - probably some of both.

We have jails full of rapists and pedophiles, as well as many currently sitting on sex registries and living at large, and you would like us to just give them unfettered access to the bathrooms where little girls and vulnerable grown women are doing their business.

And before you make a another goofy misguided argument, like the fact that women can commit these crimes too, the overwhelming majority of offenders are grown men. Keeping them out of women's restrooms is simple common sense.

"I had hoped the three restroom system would be the answer too. But this makes it obvious who the transgender folks are - and can lead to additional segregation (and possible anti-transgender violence)"

That's a stretch on a number of fronts. Families and others use those all inclusive bathrooms, including people who just don't like public restrooms. I sure do when I have my girls alone and the option exists.

Nina - thanks. I'm still not comfortable with this idea. I'm attempting to see all sides - and be open to each side's concerns - but I'm not there yet.

I think my main discomfort lies in the basic premise of the restroom choice is "the honor system" - and that's where my comfort breaks down.

If this system is not abused - then I'm ok. But - considering how things with a good intent seem to become abused - that's what troubles me.

Little girls are not being molested in European bathrooms with any regularity, and in our gun infested country I expect the same, although the odds of being shot are significantly higher.

-->"I think my main discomfort lies in the basic premise of the restroom choice is "the honor system" - and that's where my comfort breaks down"

I think for anyone who is NOT simply trans-phobic, that is the point that makes people uncomfortable. Men DO occasionally get arrested for entering the ladies room for nefarious purposes, and that's with them knowing that it's against the law; imagine how many of those types would enter the ladies room if they could simply say "I identify as a woman" and not get arrested. It is a valid and real concern. Now read Rick's concerns about his wife and daughter in the context of that.

As someone who is not at all trans-phobic, that's my only source of discomfort... and the reason I suggested that something as fundamental as gender identity, should require someone be at least as committed to change as someone who changes their name -- that is, jump through some inconvenient legal hoops that requires more public commitment than your everyday perv will tolerate. Then again, this could be a solution in search of a problem

Rickdugan, you can talk about stupidity or naïveté all you want, but you fail to have a substantial refutation for what I said. If you believe that trans individuals pose a threat to little girls in bathrooms, then you still have to believe that non-trans males pose a threat to little boys in bathrooms; actually, I believe you admitted it, one of the few times you didn't completely stray off topic with insults of "goofy and misguided" when you have failed to point out why or how they are so. Therefore, by your own logic, non-trans males shouldn't be able to enter male public bathrooms. Therefore, male public bathrooms shouldn't exist. If male public bathrooms don't exist that's discrimination, thus there should be no female public bathrooms either. Therefore, there should be no public restrooms at all.

I have just gone with your logic, and reduced your logic to what your argument leads to: there should be no public restrooms at all. But see, I think logically and I know that is just silly. Your argument, in a nutshell, is silly (among other fitting words).

Nina, maybe you are just not getting the crux of the issue. if you allow so-called "trans" men into a women's bathroom, you are allowing ALL men in there. At least until someone develops a breakthrough way of reading minds. Hence, the risk is from ALL men, not just those who are truly trans.

And since I obviously have to walk you very slowly down the logic trail, the vast majority of sexual predators are men and the vast majority of their victims are female. So allowing random grown men to wonder into public bathrooms where girls and vulnerable grown women are is not not such a hot idea. Get it now? If not, we can try a diagram next. ;)

What the fuck...

Well shit. Can't have a civilized conversation(except about strip clubs and strippers I guess) w/o it turning into this ball of shit.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Rickdugan, you are grasping at straws for shit to say. It doesn't matter that females are more often molested, males are too and it is a serious issue, you just admitted it earlier.

I already went down YOUR logic trail and remember where it got me? I reduced your argument to the silly nonsense that it is. I am done now. If you have more questions, please regard my previous post.

'san_jose_gay' is an impersonation troll. Please read carefully. I've not made any prior posts on this thread.

SJG

Some valid points on both sides in my opinion. But the bottom line is, for the first time in my life, I agree with Rick. Time to move on to another thread.

"Some valid points on both sides in my opinion. But the bottom line is, for the first time in my life, I agree with Rick. Time to move on to another thread."

Say it isn't so JohnSmith69!

Even if rickdugan weren't going full-on d-bag in this thread what you have to take into account in most of the things rickdugan posts is the fact that rickdugan is making all of the shit up.

I really suspect (and hope!) rickdugan isn't some whacko that drives drunk every time he gets behind the wheel. I suspect he may have gone to a strip club once but I'm pretty sure he is making up most of these exploits. And I'm pretty confident that he doesn't have a wife and children.

Except in his fantasy world! ;)

This is for you idiots that are voting for Trump even he thinks that you are all idiots !

yahoo.com

You probably are an idiot of you're voting for trump.

I'm mixed about this. I get harassed when I use the men's room despite being all man. My species lacks the disgusting ape penis but believe me, I was able to satisfy John Smith's #1 DS when we dated. That girl is a slut for vulture beak. Squawk!

On the other hand, rick has a point. You hairless apes do disgusting things. He needs to protect his family. He's the smartest hairless ape alive and he's a badass so he can solve any problem. So he's right. It's virtually axiomatic. Squawk!

And to dumbass dirtyass, shut it before the council of ricks takes you out. Frankly, I hope you keep it up because you'll be yummy yummy yummy in my tummy tummy tummy. I'll just avoid you're dirty ass. That's the ticket! Squawk!

Comes down to this, when I need to take a crap or empty my bladder I just want a clean maintained place to do it, and privacy. I'm not worried about the signage as long as it gets cleaned . I'd prefer NOT to deal with a bathroom troll- otherwise I'll conform to reasonable social standards for other people's comfort. Americans are VERY lucky to live in an affluent society where we're not all squatting outside by a hole behind a bush. Unfortunately we seem to be hell bent on heading back to being exactly that kind of third world country in no small part from elevating the trivial. Lets get our egos out of our assholes....