This is a little off topic, but in today's society what is considered a good salary for a man that has a wife and kids? Basically the man is the breadwinner in this situation.
I was thinking six figures, but then I saw the percentage of people making six figures isn't very high, so I don't know.
Thoughts?
It depends on if you take yearly vacations, go out a lot (or have a SC habit). I'm solid middle class but not rich, two kids through college, and $100,000 is not even close.
I'd say $250,000 is the new $100,000. Once upon a time, 6 figures meant something. Today, 6 figures means everybody gets to eat. Not much more. Today, I'd say $250,000 is enough to run most people's cups over.
To put it another way, way back in the day, my starting salary after college exceeded my 4 years tuition COMBINED. Today, a college graduate's starting salary equals 1 to 1.5 years of tuition (with a few exceptions).. Anticipate 20 years of depressed housing values as the next generation of wage earners will NOT be able to afford what we are going to want to sell. A million dollars is NOT a million dollars. Millionaire's (in other words, those with $1 M net worth) will soon be defined as middle class, if they aren't already.
Inflation is a mother fucker.
I would say at least $100k if they want to do more than tread water. Perhaps a little less in parts of the deep south, where housing, utilities and gasoline are all cheaper.
Where you are living is also a factor. My house in Alexandria VA cost $542,000 and about $3600/mo. My remains balance is $272,000 and after a refi is now $1800/mo. After my wife retires, we will probably be able to just about buy a house in South Carolina with our present equity. With this, we should be pretty much able to live on our Social Security checks which will total about $4000/mo. With income from our savings on top we will be able to travel extensively as well.
The point of the above discussion is that our life style in DC would cost almost double what it would in SC.
Just so we're clear, I don't mean that the guy is the only breadwinner, I mean he's the primary breadwinner. The wife could be doing something getting paid $30,000 or $40,000.
@pensionking- that's interesting you say $250,000 is the new $100,000. I know a few Pharmacists that are probably making around 150K, but yet they work 2 jobs, 70 hours a week, just to be able to provide for their family.
It is often the case that the more one earns the more one spends – many get caught up in “keeping up with the Joneses” and can barely keep their heads above water even when earing 6-figures+ - others seem to get by ok with less (maybe $75k combined) if they don't try or expect to have everything.
I'd live like a king on $100K all by myself. With a wife and kids, it makes that almost like minimum wage if you're really going to provide a middle class lifestyle. I know some families live on $30k or less a year but they're struggling just to get by.
I agree $250K is a very workable gross income for a family of 4 where you can take family vacations, have nice cars which are maintained, adequate medical care, and money left over for eating out a lot and strippers on the side..
@Rockstar- In the past you've said you're a poor musician. Are you saying you make way more than 100K?
I would imagine you can find a lot of articles online about this subject from people that have researched it - if you are really interested in knowing.
The Breadwinner
Good point Rockstar, sometimes I wonder if a divorce might feel like a pay raise!! Today, I am sure I get far less than 1/2 what I earn for myself and my "hobbies"!!
Out in the "real world" also known to the "extremely expensive edges" as "flyover country," an income of about $70,000 a year will support a family of 4, buy a piece of the American dream, and have a little left over to party. In fact $70,000 a year is enough to buy everything you saw in "Father Knows Best," "Leave it to Beaver" or "Maybery, RFD" plus enough to pay for cable, a smart phone plan and one or two strip club visits a month.
Only in the Mid-Atlantic Megapolis, Miami, ATL, and the Left Coast, does it take $250,000, or more, to live comfortably and enjoy extra entertainments. When you can buy a very nice home for $150,000, and purchase groceries for those four people with less than $500 a month, then it IS possible to live the dream on $70,000 a year. And than can be done in over 80% of this country. It does take actual brainpower and an education, but for most of this country, life can be pretty good with less than $100,000 a year.
It all depends on where you live and the kind of lifestyle you want.
You certainly don't need 250K a year seeing as how only a few percent of households bring in that kind of money.
I think there can't be a set expectation on what is needed to earn across the country, but dallas702 explained it best.
Some of the variables that and the hardest to deal with are housing costs and property taxes. State taxes also come into play as some states have very little or none at all.
For example, my yearly property taxes are less than what a friend of mine pays for in New Jersey for one month. My house would be worth $100,000 less if it was located in the next county.
Best place to compare all of this is here: en.wikipedia.org
According to US Census data (2010): Roughly 21% of United States households make $100,000 or more annually. The interesting part of this is that the vast majority of these households, both husband and wife are workers.
mikeya02, that was the most apropos cartoon I have ever seen.
Great post Dallas702
I live in "flyover country" and I was skimming through the classifieds at lunch today and there was a large "Help Wanted" ad for production workers in a well known factory. $10,50 per hour. Sure, I bet the guy that takes that job struggles to make ends meet, but he's making it on far less than 250k per year.
You guys sound like some of the strippers I talk to. One veteran told me she made $150k in her best year. I believe it -- she was a workaholic. But then she listed her expenses. She was spending over $600 per month just on cable TV. $500 a month on phones for her houseful of teenaged kids. She bought her babydaddy a Mercedes.
None of those things are necessary. She could cut her cable and phone bill to less than $100 per month each.
I have to admit, geography matters a lot. My property taxes are $15K/yr. I live in a nice home, but even the shittiest of shithole homes in my town cost $200,000-$250,000. I have 2 kids in college averaging $40K/yr. all in with a third one 2 years away. My state income taxes are 5%. Sales tax is 9%. Plus my wife and daughter are divas. If I moved, had no dependants and cut back, I could make $100K work. Now -- no chance.
BJ $120, FS $200. Maybe I should relocate to TJ. LOL
I don't think any of you guys live the real rural life style. I know several families in my small rural community getting by on incomes in the $30K-$40K range.
I don't think we'd be going to strip clubs too much only making 30k nowadays unless we were living with someone else with hardly any expenses. I thought I read in South Carolina, the medium family income was in the 50k range. If you're not wasting your money, you can live pretty decent on that at least in my local area. Some people waste money like crazy and then don't seem to understand why they have money problems. I bet my older brother, married used to make 6 figures before medical issues forced his retirement and yet he always seemed to have money problems with his wife spending money like a drunk stripper. Meanwhile I bet only five years ago I probably only made about half of what he used to and felt like I was a whole lot better off than him. My car is now 13 years old but I'm saving money for a replacement and bought one that was reliable.
Some people make $30K work. Others can't make $300K work. It all depends on lifestyle. I've got a 9yo paid off Jeep but it's in perfect condition and I can probably easily get another 100-200K miles out of it easy. Sure, we both want new 4 door Wranglers but we aren't going to saddle ourselves with $1K/month in car payments just so we can both drive around letting people see us in new Jeeps. WTF do I care what people on the road think about my vehicle? Oh, but you can finance it for 6 years....now you've got another house payment (boat anchor) around your neck for 6 frickin' years of your life.
Add in name brand clothing, vacations to keep up with your friends and having to have a house that matches some "reality" house on tv and you're spending $6K/month easy just to impress others. Now you're starting the year off $72K in the hole. Hope you make at least $100K/yr if you plan on eating.
Mrs sea has a friend who was single until she was about 35 and made more $$ than we did. Yet, she was always broke and saddled with bills. Personally, I could care less which one of us makes more money or who is considered the "breadwinner". Nowadays you both really need to work. There is no more Mayberry or Leave it to Beaver for the majority of families.
I buy things on sale and look for the best value for my money all the time. Best value means you get the biggest bang for the dollar even if it's not the cheapest item initially. I usually save up money before purchasing things which eliminates all credit card debt interest. My idea of wasteful spending is visiting strip clubs and buying myself and ccassionally dancers expensive club prices for drinks. bud lite is often on sale for $3, but miller lite is often 5 and dancer drinks can be over $8. wasteful. The whole cost of everything except free admission with the member pass would be considered extremely wasteful by my old living standards before I started visiting strip clubs. It still seems expensive but I allow myself to splurge and have fun once a week. I could be wasting money on golf or some other expensive hobby.
Hard for me to imagine for less than $100K. But I'm not as frugal as many people are.
Here in LA you gotta make some serious 6 or 7 digit income if you want to live well and afford a lavish SC spending lifestyle.
Seaboard nailed it. Don't spend money you don't have to impress people you don't like.
I saw a cost of living calculator on marketwatch.com It indicated I would need at least a 40% salary increase just to maintain my standard of living if I moved from here to new York city. I think if I moved to California, I might need a 100 to 200 % salary increase to maintain my standard of living.
From what I heard if my house relocated to California, I would already be living in a million dollar home instead of one valued under $150k. I'm not sure how much housing has dropped since after 2007 though.
Move your house to Cali and sell it...then go clubbing
The next question is what the hell are some you guys doing to be making well into six figures?
You look online at the salaries making over 100K, and it's pretty much lawyers, pharmacists, doctors, and dentists. Some technology guys can be making over 100K.
The numbers you are seeing deal with a lot of averages.
I know nurses making 100K+ working for Uncle Sam. It's all about finding the right position and putting in the time.
Most jobs that pay 100K or more come with a lot of responsibility which usually equals stress.
If I know what I know now, I would have become a pharmacist or an air traffic controller. Those seem to be the least stressful high paying jobs. Yes, I know they say air traffic controllers are very high stress jobs, but I have a friend that is one, works at a rural airport out in the middle of nowhere and he's pulling low 6 figures. He works odd hours (days one week, afternoons the next, nights the next) but it would be worth it to me. I think his biggest challenge is staying awake while at work.
Ranky,going to this board for financial advice is like going to Jiffy Lube for Sushi.
I'm a professional RickyBoy basher.
I barley make over $100k no kids, it's a decent living but married people with kids get a shit load of tax breaks. I have to hide a lot into 401k and IRA. I hope I live long enough to enjoy the forced savings.
The median household income for a family of four is $45,623 (2014 census data). Half make more ,half make less. I would say if you make $90,000, (twice the median) you should be okay. If the wife make minimum wage that would add $20,000.00 to the mix and you are over 100k. It really is not how much you make. Most research shows little gain in happiness over $75,000.00. The trick is not buying everything you think you should have and to save at least %10 of what you make. Wealth (not cash flow) does not happen overnight. I have lived on 65% of my income for years so retirement will be a raise. I make a 6 figure salary (barely) but I have been here 30 years and have paid my dues. If your household income gets to the $100,00.00 range you will be in the top %10 of American households. It will not feel rich, that's the scary part. I do not feel rich and I feel for the half of households who make 1/4 of what I do. .
@rankum: There's family money. I don't earn nearly enough to support my lifestyle so in a sense I'm a poor musician, but I'm not exactly starving.
@rankum: My son is an engineer 2 years out of college and he's making close to 6 figures already. He said of all the engineering seniors, 75% had a job before graduation. My (soon to be ex) wife is an international tax attorney, which also commands $$$$$$. When I'm not playing rock star I'm a commodities trader, which can have any income at all; mine varies greatly year to year. My daughter is studying to be a doctor; I assume she'll be making money after all the bills are paid off.
Engineers working for Fortune 500 companies can easily earn well into the 6 figures.
I wouldn't want to live in LA again. The cost of living is ridiculous. A $70K house here would be $300K out there.
GACA....you make over 100K and have no kids and say it's a "decent living" lol
I'd say that's a lot better than just "decent"
We live a modest lifestyle, 3 bedroom 2 bath home, and make a little over $200k. However we only consume about $100k with almost half of our earnings going to savings and taxes.
Point is our income is way above average, however when we get set to hang it up in retirement we will only need about half our current income. Everyone's situation is different so you should never compare yourself to averages. Should I take a group insurance policy when I'm in better health than the group? I think individuals need to focus on how much they can get by on and consistently set aside some cash for future obligations.
By the way GACAclub, not sure who is helping you out with your finances, but you can't be hiding any money away into an IRA for current year tax deductions if you are also putting money into your 401k. Someone in your income bracket is shut out of making taxable deductions into IRAs if u contribute it a 401k. Better hope the IRS doesn't catch your flaw, or better yet hopefully you meant the ROTH IRA, because u will be eligible contributing into the ROTH as that doesn't have current year tax deductions.
Like I said, if I lived by myself with just normal living expenses, I'd have a very comfortable life on $100k a year.
Exactly rockstar....that's a shitload of money for ONE person
Don't get how GACA club thinks that's "decent"
Vikings, if you make 100k per year and are single with no kids, then you are going home with 6,500 or so per month. Sounds like a lot, but in high cost areas that money can get chewed up quickly. Housing and utilities will easily take 2,500+ off the top and maybe more if you live in a cold weather state or in a downtown area. Then factor in car payments and insurance (let's say 900 per month all in), food (maybe 600 including restaurants), clothes needed for work (replacement costs, dry cleaning, etc., easily 300 per month over a year)), gas or mass transit charges (let's say 3-400 per month), sundries and entertainment, etc., and you can see how that money gets chewed up quickly.
Net-net, everything is so much cheaper in the South and Midwest that it is hard to fathom how anyone could struggle on 100k, but in places like the northeast, California and I'm sure some other areas, the cost of living is so much more expensive that it is the same as making a much smaller salary in lower cost areas.
And when I say "everything" is so much less expensive, I mean housing, utilities, gasoline and property taxes.
^^^ and scoring OTC with a hooker at a dive club after spending 18 months to do so.
Back in 1987 I was living and working in the Los Angels area where I was born. Due to a merger I had a choice of staying in L.A. without a job or moving to Atlanta with a $1K/mo increase in pay. Duh! Many of us were faced with the problem of paying capital gains by selling our CA homes and buying new ones in GA. To avoid it many of us had to buy mansions.
It's not what you make,it's what you keep.Think of the IRS as someone who is trying to take your money.I used to own a restaurant in Jersey where the boats would drop off the traders from Wall St.They would come in for happy hour and enlighten me with all that was going on,(Yes I still own my Under Armour IPO amongst others.)
I've been retired since I was 52 years of age and about to get married.Lovedart hates the prenup while my will states upon my demise she gets everything,(She never was any good at math)
So the moral of my story is money is a tool,money is a vehicle.Don't work hard,work smart.
That's awesome Tdice! I say that to people all the time . . .
It is not what you make, it is what you keep!! Words to live by. By the way, IMO, contributions to IRA or 401(k) counts as part of what you keep.
In another sense, all money is spent. Some is well spent, some is poorly spent. Even savings left for one's heirs is spent in the sense that a portion may be taxed upon death and a portion is willed to one's heirs (where it eventually gets spent again). The REAL key is to minimize the money poorly spent, however you choose to define the term "poorly".
Great great insight!
w.r.t geography – my older cousin's daughter is in medical school in NYC – my cousin is well-off (self-made millionaire) – my cousin and his wife (they live in South FL (Boca Raton)) were worried about their daughter and where she would live in NYC that would be safe – they settled on a ~450 sq ft studio apt in a nice area for freggin $2300/mo rent – ouch!
Part of what makes society seem so stressed now is that most guys don't make enough money to support a wife and children as they would like. Most don't make enough to be considered "adequate" as human beings.
Of course where I am housing costs are so high that I really don't know what the income level would have to be.
Whether the wife works or not makes no difference, as this is not about living, it is about holding one's head up. So the more money the wife gets paid, the more she will expect the husband to get paid. Otherwise she will shit on him 365 days per year.
So of course given this crazy state of affairs, we are all right to prefer strippers to wives or girlfriends.
The high point in purchasing power for the working man was sometime between 1969 and 1972. Since then it has been dropping steadily.
And then as James Carville says, they're ain't no line of those wanting to marry guys who can't pay the bills.
So anyway, the time for revolution is now, but not to restore the old order, to make something entirely different.
SJG
"And then as James Carville says, they're ain't no line of those wanting to marry guys who can't pay the bills."
Marry? No. But if they have plenty of weed and a big dick, there's a long line of strippers that will live with 'em!
"Of course where I am housing costs are so high that I really don't know what the income level would have to be"
It's your town, how do you not know?
Miley, that's one is pretty obvious. He doesn't have to pay rent to his mom.
@san_jose_guy
when you were saving up your pennies to send away for your mail order bride did it not occur to you that there would be ongoing costs? you know things like clothing and feeding her.
you didn’t really expect her to live off of cheetos and gravy did you? what did you think would happen when she found out your only source of income was your weekly allowance from mom and that is the best you are capable of?
no wonder she dumped your ass
@DoctorPhil, The last thing in the world that I would ever want is a mail order bride. Go back under whatever rock you came out from under.
SJG
@san_jose_guy “The last thing in the world that I would ever want is a mail order bride.”
well i can certainly understand that after your experience with the first one.
but just between you and me, what the fuck were you thinking? i mean sure she was from the third world and all but did you really think you could keep her in your mother’s basement eating nothing but cheetos and drinking gravy?
btw did you get any of your money back when she dumped you or was it one of those cheap “As Is” sales?
In one way, I'm kind of glad the company I work for never promoted me. Now whenever I want to, I can move to a higher paying state out of low wage south Carolina and probably make just as much as I am now with a starting salary somewhere else. Hopefully if I did that, I could get a slightly higher wage with a little bit more responsibility. On the other hand, if I keep making at least as much in the stock market as the last couple weeks, I could quit work in a few years and be a day trader. I messed up today. Sold a stock before I went to work. Could have made an extra 6% today if I simply used a stop loss instead of selling right away.
I think a man who supports a non-working wife and 2 or 3 kids needs an income of at least $100,000 to live a comfortable life. As you say, this is a small percentage of Americans. In most families, both husband and wife have to work, and even then the median household income is about $52,000. Life ain't easy.
I grew up in the 1950's and 1960's when most wives did not work (outside the home), and I was always the principal breadwinner for my wife and children. I was able to provide a nice life for my family and send my children to college. Not everybody is so lucky.