It’s hard and kinda counterproductive to do it on a state-wide basis – most times SCs are governed by local city ordinances and one can often have the situation where a city in a state has great SCs and a nearby city has terrible SCs.
I know PA for the most part is really strict, although there are a few remote pockets that you can get away with a lot. It's not like it was 10 years ago, though, was slot of fun back then.
Papi is right that this is more an issue of local law than state law. In other words, this post is really asking where are the best cities for strip clubs. That topic has been discussed in detail in previous recent postings. However, Las Vegas could not make the list. They don't even allow full nudity and alcohol.
I think there are at least two separate issues here. First there is what the law allows, and then there is what can actually be gotten away with.
In California the main obstacle is PC 647(B), basically contracting for sex or lewd conduct. This is what the higher felony charge of Pandering depends on.
Except for Nevada and its legal houses, all 50 states have something very similar to this. No wonder then that Mexico and Canada benefit from tourism.
Where I am, Santa Clara County, our DA's Office is committed to not letting it get to be like San Francisco. So they want to uphold their interpretation that even getting pawed or flashing for tips violate 647(B). This really sucks. They crush anyone who challenges this.
In San Francisco the state's PC is of course the same. But Jim and Artie Mitchell were able to beat the wrap because they were fearless and willing to be tried in front of a jury, and because the newspapers were on their side, and because the politics are more liberal.
Read, Bottom Feeders, by John Hubner. Absolutely fascinating.
Also, Jim and Artie were able to get the State Supreme Court under Rose Bird to overturn all the Victorian Era "Red Light Abatement" laws. What these laws did was enable the closing of a business, without there ever having been a jury which determined that the law was being broken.
Problem is though, in the years since the 60's and 70's many places, including where I am, have instituted these Adult Entertainment Ordinances. These are intended to replace the earlier ordinances which high courts struck down as abrogations against constitutionally protected Freedom of Speech.
What it amounts to is that if a local government feels that your business is adult oriented, then they can require that you obtain a permit. The permit does not actually allow you to do anything which you could not otherwise do, but it does subject you to a whole host of new regulations. These regulations do not apply anywhere else, except in a licensed adult entertainment establishment.
So for a strip club these include things like, no tush exposure unless the entertainer is on a raised stage of 18" min height and no customer is allowed to get within 6'. Any private dance areas are of course subject to this.
What they are doing is imposing all sorts of restrictions before they have obtained even any evidence that their extreme interpretation of PC 647(B) is being violated. It also makes the strip club subject to easy inspections.
Now of course this is all just as unconstitutional as the earlier ordinances the courts overturned. Its just that few people have the money to engage in such a fight.
Now in San Francisco, one of the reasons Jim and Artie were able to beat 647(B) is that in their lap dancing club, there were no booths or back rooms, and there was no negotiation of fees. So it was just $1 tips to a girl sitting on your lap. How far this went varied, but they did prohibit FS and fire girls who violated.
But their basic legal argument was that this was not for sexual gratification because it was being done in front of the audience. It was an audience participation cabaret show.
Jim and Artie had seen something in NYC where guys paid some money and got to take a turn doing some DATY on a woman. Artie told the press about the Nieman Marcus Dept Store. He said that at MBOT they were to be the Nieman Marcus of sex.
This worked, in San Francisco, until Jim shot Artie dead.
But then came Willey Brown as Mayor and Terence Hallinan as DA. Hallinan's position was that there is no crime unless there is a victim, and so consenting adults could do whatever they wanted.
So Market St. Cinema and New Century built these huge new private rooms, and all the SF clubs were going to private booths and they most certainly did negotiate fee for service up front.
As a matter of practicality, if the girls are cagey and make the guy make the offer first, then if that guy is a cop, that is entrapment. So it worked.
Once Hallinan was succeeded though, the first thing his replacement did was have 647(B) arrests made at the Market St. Cinema. She then went on to become State AG, and today the Market St. Cinema is closed.
Also I think some of the problem in San Francisco now is just that these businesses have world famous names and land mark real estate, so they are worth too much money themselves to take any chances with them.
What they instead do is lower the "mileage" to a level that the cops won't do anything about. This seems to be "extras" ( LDK, HJ, BJ ) but excluding FS.
It would be hard for a cop to do anything about this. I mean really, the idea of our big brave police officers going undercover with a role of department cash just to see which strippers are pliable. In San Francisco the police would be made into a laughing stock. But this is not true in places like San Mateo or Santa Clara Counties.
Also, the clubs seem to like this idea of open ended expensive fantasy. They won't say what it prohibited, as that would entail admission as to what is actually going on. So instead they like the idea being put out that anything could potentially be possible, but it is just very expensive. Maybe once in a while something beyond the usual envelop does indeed occur, but so what. Very hard to actually know.
Of course I don't like anything about this. I like the women, but that would be for civilian relationships and have very little to do with the clubs they work in.
But from reading TUSCL and blackstripclubs.net it is clear that there are many places in the country where they don't enforce anything or have any interest in ever doing so.
I say that the best is when the girls will makeout with you and get into heavy petting in the main room, and then only go to the VIP room when the customer's pants will be coming down. In these places FS is not a higher level of extra, it is an act of submission. I do plan to be in these places, and in TJ's Hong Kong Bar.
As others have said, it is really more specific to certain cities and counties. Some fun places for me have been Pasco County FL, Providence, and Greenville SC. However, things have tightened up in Providence with new changes in laws and police raids.
Having said this, in many cities you will have one or two outlier clubs that are more lenient than other clubs in those same cities. Rather than trying to plan a trip by identifying looser areas, it may make more sense to find places you want to go for other reasons and then research the available options for those areas on here.
But truth be told though, the older I get, the less interested I am in having my pants down around my ankles in a backroom of a shitty strip club. Most of my p4p is OTC with dancers and it works out well for me, inconveniences aside.
From personal experience, Phoenix and Tucson are lenient in many clubs but FS is pretty rare. From reading different sites, El Paso is very lenient, at least some clubs. Dallas and City of Industry (CA) used to be very lenient, but it sounds like they are getting slightly less so. It sounds like Las Vegas can be reasonably lenient, but very expensive (more than I'd be willing to pay).San Francisco is anything goes, it seems, but it has been many years since I've had personal experience there. Of course, I've read about Detroit and Atlanta, but no personal experience.
Philly goes in cycles, and it is usually opposite what is going on across the river in NJ. Lately south jersey is pretty lax, but it is getting tougher in Philly last couple of years. I miss the good old days a couple of years ago she. You could drive up to Rhoad Island and just have a great weekend of debauchery and is was "legal".
With the recent events in Ferguson, MO and the increased concern about law enforcement priorities and tactics, I wonder if this might be a good time for people to lobby for some limitations on the reach of LE and for common sense in prioritizing the focus of LE activities. I mean, why invest taxpayer money in preventing consenting adults from having sex, even if money (or rent or marriage licenses or dinner and a movie) is involved in the agreement.
Even though Detroit is amazingly (and hopefully permanently!) tolerant of strip club activities, the Detroit police periodically raid strip clubs, while wearing ski masks. Most of the time, they check for expired dance cards, outstanding arrest warrants and sometimes even give out a ticket for indecent exposure (WTF?). On very rare occasion, they find an underage dancer (I too find this unacceptable-- I'm OK with nearly anything between consenting adults for not underage or coerced activities). None of these "offenses" seem to present a major threat to public safety. I wonder if ACLU (known for taking on unpopular causes in the interest of protecting civil rights) or other civil/individual rights groups have a position on this?
Tucson used to have the candy store which amazingly cheap. I once tutu fucked a stripper on the floor. It was not on the VIP. The place had just opened for the day. I was on of 3 customers in the place. Floor dances were $5 each. I paid her more than that for that amazing dance. Unfortunately that place has closed down. It is now Venum.
The dancer later told me she usually does that only in the VIP but she said what the hell. In that same club I had one dancer lay on my lap while the other eat her out. Man- I miss that club
Obviously Detroit is great for extras but it depends on the dancer .There are clubs in Toledo where I can get my dick sucked any night of the week but its against the law.
It's really all based on jurisdiction. Iowa has some clubs where some mileage can be had, but also some clubs where they are very strict. So does Kansas.
Ranukam i think you still have not found the right club in portland ... There are the lame low mileage clubs you have reviewed, and then theres a plethora of dives with ordinary girls doing everything from HJs, BJs to full sex for less than a VIP at the other places. Go to the dives if you want truly high mileage or even sex in Portland, and this is a well known fact.
You've written about dating strippers, almost like it is some kind of a sport. If you're dating strippers then you should be getting earfuls of all the inside dope on your hometown clubs from across your own bedroom pillow. Really, if you're dating strippers, I don't know why you'd even be wanting to pay money for these "extras", except maybe just to flatter a girl and play along with her some.
Trixxi,
As always your posts shed much needed light into the darkness of confusion which pervades this discussion forum. Please, the more you can post the better.
No reason to mention club names, and no one should ever mention dancer names, but about so many subjects there is just so much confusion.
I want to return briefly and add to my discussion of the legal issues behind S.F.'s MBOT and the origins of Lap Dancing. It is always difficult for LE to enforce 647(B). There is nothing about sex that is illegal. There is nothing about used condoms which is illegal. There is nothing which would establish a crime except for this meeting of the minds which constituted the contract between two consenting adults.
So usually when 647(B) is enforced, LE is trampling on Due Process and other Constitutional protections. What they are betting on is that the bust will not be seriously contested. When it comes to the operators of strip clubs, they make it into a felony and just intimidate the operator into pleading guilty. In Santa Clara County they want to uphold their extreme view of 647(B), without ever having to put it before a jury.
So what is far more harmful than 647(B) are these local Adult Entertainment Ordinances. These are written to be inspectable. They are regulations which do not apply on the sidewalk outside a strip club, in a park, in a shopping mall, or anywhere except in a licensed Adult Entertainment Establishment. These regulations exist without there ever having been any proof that any law was ever broken. What it amounts to is just saying that since they don't like a particular type of business, they are making the decision that it does not enjoy 1st Amendment protection.
Now in the case of Jim and Artie Mitchell, it was never just about money, it was always about thumbing their nose at the authorities.
A critical day was when Jim Mitchell was a Film Studies Major at SFSU, on the day of a major protest against the War in Vietnam. He was on the top floor of a building looking down on the protesters.
Then he went home to the Pittsburg / Antioch area on the Delta. His working class friends did not like the "long hairs" who protested the war. They were up in arms about the riot they had just seen on television. But Jim was there to see the whole thing himself. He saw that it was not these long hairs who started the riot. It was started by guys wearing sun glasses and talking into walkie talkies who started shoving people towards the center from all sides, simultaneously. Once violence erupted, then the SFPD Tactical Squad stormed in and further escalated it.
So from their times with movies through the lap dancing era, Jim and Artie were always taunting the authorities. They didn't just want to get away with stuff, they wanted to get away with it out in the open.
They courted the news media, by inviting reporters up to their office suite, which was the second floor of MBOT. Dancers say they were being used as party favors. I'm sure this was true.
Based on what Jim and seen in NYC and on what was going on in Amsterdam, they built this DATY oriented facility. It would have been much like what is shown here in this Madonna video:
Customers would have their own little stall, with a window. They were to be offered a little sampling of DATY.
But when they first opened it, they had glass windows installed. They waited until after they were arrested and booked. Then the next day, out on bail with their cases pending, they removed the glass.
They always did it like this, starting very soft core, and then after they were arrested, ratcheting it up. They were always baiting and taunting the authorities. With movies and then the contact strip shows, they were each arrested and booked over 100 times.
They hired expert civil liberties lawyers, and they never dealt. They always had the newspapers on their side.
Now with these places people are talking about here as being lenient, it is a very different story. These are places where no one really cares what is going on, these are dives, there is a racial divide, or they are looking at is as out of state money coming in, or something. They do what they do, but they don't boast about it.
We are coming up on Sept, and the 9th is California's 1850 Admission Day. But there were actually 5 parts of this compromise package of legislation, like the admission of Texas. The most contentious would be the Fugitive Slave Act, effective everywhere, even in California.
Massachusetts led the way in opposing the enforcement of the act, by making its own laws prohibiting the use of any of its own facilities in the renditioning of suspected fugitive slaves. This led to many street and court house brawls in the decade which followed, and even one instance where a Deputy Federal Marshall was shot dead.
@SJG- Extras aren't really my thing, I'm just saying I haven't been offered it in the clubs I've been to. In regards to treating dating strippers like a sport, me and some buddies used to compete on who could bag the most strippers.
I think we do need to exert some discretion here and not make it too easy for people using text search engines, so I won't mention the place name. But I read what you are saying to Ranukam and it completely jives with what I can discern from many hundreds of miles away. I think some of it is just how many clubs there are. I noticed that 20 years ago when I was there for a conference and found that every bar I looked into as I walked through the downtown, had strippers.
So now today, given that there are so many clubs and that there must be so many dancers and that these clubs are competing with each other, the extreme mileage in these 'dives' comes a no surprise.
I think that city and its clubs must be lots of fun! More than anything else, I have the impression that the dancers themselves must have a great deal of control over it. As long as you only have to deal with the dancer, and the club management has not set up all sorts of ways to regulate it, there should be no problem. I hope to be able to visit that place soon and to establish some long term contacts.
The reason I mention this now, is to contrast it with some other situations I have seen, for example in San Francisco.
There is a type of strip club known as the Clip Joint. They are selling a fantasy, and selling it at a high price. The original example of this would be in some of the Go-Go Bars. There the women dance and waitresse. But you can also invite them to sit down and have a drink with you. These kinds of places can be fun, like at the Brass Rail in Sunnyvale, or like in would imagine it must have been like at Larry Flynt's original 8 clubs in Southern Ohio.
But the way some of these ran was different. You could invite the girl to sit down and have a drink at your table. But you could also pay hundreds of dollars and invite her to have a drink with you in the VIP Room. Now she would get some of that money, in order to get her to go along with this. People would pay that money because they believed that something was to be had for it. But in fact, having the drink with her in the VIP Room was no different from in the main room. Nothing was going to happen. Some people just came in there and wanted to be separated from their money.
While what is happening in San Francisco is not quite that blatant, I do feel that it is similar. What it comes down to is selling a fantasy, an open ended and expensive fantasy, and a management which had gone way to far in regulating the interactions between the dancers and the customers, in order to make money off of them.
And this gets to another even broader issue. There is a great deal of sexual dysfunction and sexual pain in our society. This is evident in the posts on this forum. Ideally what happens at a strip club could help to heal this. But sometimes this is not the case, as what happens at the strip club only serves to compound it. I see overwhelming evidence that this is happening just from reading this forum.
In John Hubner's book Bottom Feeders, about Jim and Artie Mitchell, he has countless dancer interviews. There was an original group of dancers who did the zero touching strip shows. Customers were not even allowed to get close to the stage, and so they got zero tips. They got paid a flat rate by the house.
Then finally Jim and Artie decided that they could go out into the house and sit on laps. So there would be no more pay, and there would be an access fee. This original group of dancers decided that the rate should be $1 per minute. This was to apply no matter how much mileage there was to be. It was always just $1 per minute. They knew that they could not try and negotiate fees, or that could result in legal trouble.
They ended up getting a net pay over four times greater than what they had been getting, so they were very happy. They saw themselves as missionaries of a sort. Business travelers, much older than they, were coming from all areas of the country. They were people who had not benefited from the Sexual Revolution. So this experience of the pretty girl sitting on their lap ( with or without some sort of mileage occurring ) was a real eye opener. They weren't spending that much money. They were leaving blown away by how open these girls were able to be with strangers.
I also had an early lap sitting experience with a girl that I hope to write an article about, explaining how it effected me.
Likewise, these dives you write about, with the extreme mileage being largely in control of the girl, sound like tremendous fun.
Also, I find the Sunnyvale no touching bikini bars to be tremendous fun. There are lots of ways to engage in verbal flirting and sometimes even to get into very sexualized talk. These are still basically ordinary girls, and only a fool would not see that. The cost is modest, and no one is being harmed.
I have also partaken extensively in this underground table dancing circuit which operated in Mexican Bars. There, not so many rules are enforced. There is a great deal of touching, and it is all out in the main room. Also, in those venues, with most of the girls, OTC is most certainly available. But I still found it all to be tremendous fun, and a real eye opener. The Latinas are the best, just because of how open they are able to be with everybody. Interacting with them and trying to escalate just feels great.
But on this board what I am constantly hearing about is another form of club, the "extras" club, or the "LDK" club, where the costs are quite high, and guys often have very little communications with the dancers. I feel that this way of using strip clubs and these sorts of clubs themselves are promoting the very sorts of sexual dysfunction which so plagues are society.
On this board I have been flabbergasted by some of the things I have heard people trying to defend:
1. That dancers are compelled by club management to administer lap dances to patrons ( panties off dry humping 'till completion ) even if they don't want to.
2. That there is no reason to talk to dancers, as what happens in the LD booth will be the same anyway.
3. That even such a basic thing as a guy's marital status will not influence how a dancer perceives them.
To me there is something very seriously wrong with this "extras" model, and these sorts of views are evidence of that. Somehow these guys have gotten the idea that it is the dancer's job to get them off, and that this exchange should be their primary means of relating to dancers. They treat them as vending machines.
Now I can understand reasons why dancers might like this set up, because it puts them in control of the interaction, and so it makes it so much easier. But I still think there is something wrong about the guys who are going along with it.
I offer here as an example of my concern this S.F. Crazy Horse.
In terms of the eclecticism of its girl, Crazy Horse still is one of the best. But I for one would not want to spend money there.
Here I show you the floor plan. They have two sections of 6 booths each. You can click on them to see them expand. The booths in one of the sections are larger than in the other.
To me this looks like something someone has carefully designed for what it prevents.
And then on top of this, the money goes into counting machines. Of course this makes it possible for the house to take a deeper cut. And then probably the real reason they are doing this is as a peace treaty with the IRS. Both sides now are going to have to report the income.
So one guy was coming from somewhere to SF and wanted FS-ITC. Some posted that it could be had at Crazy Horse. I questioned this. The more it was discussed the more it sounded like just a rumor, and a very expensive open ended rumor, where maybe only 10% of the dancers would do it.
I would suspect that if someone was waving around lots of money, he would just be fixed up with someone for OTC.
But see where I am going with this, it still is just another means of promoting the idea that sex always has to cost money, that it is expensive, and that usually people just have to be frustrated, and that you aren't really going to be communicating with dancers. To me the Crazy Horse, as it operates today, does not sound like a fun place at all.
Whereas, these dives you talk about sound fun. I am also intrigued by what someone was describing as the early days of high and extreme mileage in Texas. Dancers would build 'forts' out of chairs and blankets, in order to create a private space. So then probably the management had nothing to do with this. The dancers could just do it their way. The dancers would be the ones keeping track of time. Probably it was really good!
This brings me to my last major issue, which I have been posting about in one form or another on many threads. I feel that with some of these highly structured places that FS-ITC does go on, but it is done in this "extras" format. That is, the dancer drives it, she is on top, literally, and there is no surrender.
Sure she can get herself off, but that is no big deal. She can cum more times in 30 min than I can in 24 hours. But unless there is surrender, it is still almost not even like sex.
And in fact, based on a posted narrative, I believe that some of these dancers don't even consider this extras form of FS to be sex.
So I think this is just compounding sexual dysfunction and frustration, as well as the cultural dynamics which cause this.
You have mentioned dives that sound great. No need to mention names. But just in general, when FS-ITC happens is there enough time, and is there enough space to make comfortable position changes so the guy can be expressive and lead it. This is how one gets the girl to open up, instead of staying dissociated. If I am to be with a girl for the first time, usually when it is time to bring it on home, I am going to want to put her on her back and make it real nice for her.
And then of course, will the girls engage in makeout sessions. More than anything, I feel that this is what lets them open up so that it can be real. Best if they do this DFKing in the main room and for modest tips, before going to the VIP Room and getting the larger lumped sum. If the two parties can get along with each other well enough to let this happen, then the probability of FS going off splendidly is very high.
These places can be fun, they can be life changing, and they can be sources of healing. I know that most of the dancers want it to be this way. It is just that when the management has found too many ways to control the interactions, then these places can actually be harmful, and I feel that on this board we are continually being treated to posting which demonstrates the effects of this. In my humble opinion, much of what is currently going on in San Francisco is an example of these sorts of frustration and harm inducing SC's.
I think it's even finer grained than by city. For instance, within Louisville, all clubs are ostensibly covered by the same set if rules. But within a few miles of each other, there are clubs which are very low, but high cost, one way mileage, and clubs that you can walk into, nut in a dancer's mouth, and walk out 15 minutes and a hundred or so bucks later.
What you say about Louisville is interesting because that had been a place known for high "mileage", at least in the black clubs, as reported on blackstripclubs.net. Louisville was a nice mileage place and one got the sense that probably anything could be had. But, they also were passing these adult entertainment ordinances, making illegal things which would not be illegal anywhere else.
So what you are saying, given that you have recent reviews from Louisville, is encouraging. It gives one reason to hope for places like Memphis Tennessee, and Jackson Mississippi, which also were reported to have had great places, until they passed such laws. So maybe, at least in some places, maybe in the black places, no one is really interested in enforcing such laws.
I'm not going to mention the location your are speaking of or the club, so as to not make it any easier than necessary for people using text search engines. Of the club you mentioned, I had seen accounts of it saying the bar tender could also do dances, "should the need arise". Sounded like she was very good at it as the people were most pleased.
I am glad to hear that the new regulations have not destroyed this.
But I will wonder though, you talk about "nutting in a dancer's mouth" and of the entire visit only taking 15min. Is the issue still coming down to pressure from law enforcement. Are they able to also do FS, and are they set up to offer it nicely? Or have they just figured that they had better keep it to these "extras". It is not that these are really that much different from a legal point of view, maybe it is just that LE knows that they have to compromise some.
This is indeed what seems to have happened at the San Francisco clubs. "Extras" are pretty much standard, but we are not clear how much FS exists. Someone was coming to SF and wanted FS-ITC. I found the information posted to be very unclear, almost more like rumors. The idea is that potentially anything is possible, if you have unlimited amounts of money. So maybe if you spent a great deal of money buttering up a dancer, or several dancers, and then had still more money, it might be possible. But still not clear.
I hope at the clubs you are going to that good FS-ITC is a reality, and not just an expensive fantasy.
You can read below about how I don't really go for this "extras" approach.
SJG: PM me the place you're thinking of. Like I said, the only "black" club I'd grace with the name doesn't fit *either* of the extremes I mentioned.
The example I gave was just that, an example intended to illustrate the differences in clubs within the same city as a counter point to the implication put forth by some that cities tend towards homogeneity.
It wasn't intended to describe the *limits* of what's possible.
I probably have not been to as many cities as some of you may have, but there is no way that any city could be much looser when it comes to ITC and OTC everything than El Paso, TX. Maybe its because I am a younger white guy in a largely mexican town where most white guys are drunk obnoxious military, or whatever the deal is, but I have gotten more action there than all other cities combined.
You can get away with a lot in Philly too if you go to the right places.
As for Nevada, aside from the brothels (and I am speaking specifically about Las Vegas), I have never gotten very far ITC and OTC those bitches want way too much money.....
Philly can be good, but is REALLY expensive. I live near there and have found that an hour to an hour and a half drive in any direction and just as much fun (if not more) can be had, and usually for a quarter the price tag.
Every strip club in the country has dancers who do OTC. So that isn't worth talking about here.
What could be best about a strip club is that chance just to See, Want, and then to Have, right then and there, without letting the girl get out of your grip.
There are probably some places where there is a motel right there. I know of one probable and I have heard of another which could well be like that.
So it seems like there are several issues. 1st, these unconstitutional adult entertainment ordinances. These are very easy to enforce, and they kill everything.
Without these, then there are rules which come with having an alcoholic beverage license. These can also kill everything, so some clubs will just give up the alcohol. I like this myself, but I know that it does throttle the industry. Places that have lots of strip clubs, like Portland, do not have such rules.
So then beyond this it is just PC 647(B), and how much time and energy the authorities want to put into enforcing it. It is also a matter of who they arrest, dancers, customers, or the owner. In more politically progressive environments, they can only go after the owner, and this is much more difficult. But most of the time in most places they do go after dancers, and they bust them just on open solicitation.
So it really then is just what places have the authorities just decided to leave alone. Here on TUSCL there is not that much open discussion of this. There was some on blackstripclubs.net.
There is a new business model for this which I like. The membership club. They are copying the approach taken by swing clubs. Everyone must show ID and fill out a confidential form and pay a one time fee. Doing this exempts them from all laws pertaining to public nudity or sex acts. So really, anything could happen on stage, near the stage, or in the main room.
They loose the ability to sell alcohol, so they often let people bring their own.
Now they are not exempt from the Penal Code, but as a matter of practice it becomes impossible to enforce some laws in such situations.
I know of such places now in Northwest Indiana, in Northern New Jersey, and in Northern West Virginia and near Pittsburg. I bet they are fantastic! These are openly strip clubs, not masquerading as swingers clubs.
I do not know of any near me. But there was this famous place called Edge Water West in Oakland. It was supposedly a swingers club, but to me it looked like P4P. I do not actually know this though and people I have asked have denied it. Also, one Sunnyvale dancer told me that there were membership clubs. The only thing I could imagine that she might have been talking about would have been this Edgewater.
Oakland got the building torn down as part of a large re-development effort. Cities do this when they really want to get rid of a place.
At one of these black membership only places in PGC Maryland, the bounders do enforce a no touching rule for when the dancers are on stage.
I think the reason is that since the place is basically anything goes, if you don't prohibit touching when the dancer is on stage, she won't do her set. She will just start climbing onto whoever sits at her stage, and then have them lift her clear of the stage.
So if they want it to have the aesthetics of a strip club, they do need to impose this one type of no touching rule. After she is done though, anything goes.
In black FS places this usually means she starts climbing onto laps and getting guys to make out with her. Known from numerous detailed reviews on blackstripclubs.net ( down now )
I think this membership club business model is very promising for extreme mileage SC's.
1. Dolled up hotties
2. Casual and non-committal fraternizing at low cost. Never have to give thumbs up or thumbs down on any of them. Not like "Lingerie Modeling", "Adult Entertainment", or "Massage Places". SC's are easy going and relaxed places for hanging out.
3. Front room make out session for sitting tips. Best way to get to know them. You can lead it with talk and action.
4. Without girl having to change clothes, take off shoes, or drive car, retreat to private space for escort grade session. House gets little or none of the money for this. Girl is in charge and girl keeps the time. Bouncers and drink servers better not interfere in any way.
We should be insisting upon this and getting this.
On stripper web they don't like SC DFKing. But when they talk about escorting, that is always a given.
Lets try and look at this now from a different angle. Where are the strip clubs really crumby, and what legal restrictions are causing this, and then what can we do about this?
D.C. is no touching. People say Virginia SC's are crumby. This probably means no mileage. Santa Clara County and San Mateo County have zero touching. Atlanta is known for air dances. And I find that San Francisco is lacking, since I want escort grade FS, not "extras", exemplified by a place like Crazy Horse.
So what sorts of legal restrictions are causing this, and then what do we do about this?
These restrictions come in three types as we have been talking about:
1. Adult Entertainment Rules
2. Alcohol Rules
3. PC-647(B)
Lets talk about #3 first, as it is the simplest. This is the moral justification for all of the other restrictions. It is all the basis of the more serious felony charges which they can apply. But 647(B) is almost impossible to enforce without trampling on constitutional protections of probable cause and privacy. When you have lots and lots of strip clubs, and lots of people involved, it just becomes impractical. I am convinced that this is what is happening in many places in the country now. There is no law against, sex, money, or condoms. To prove the crime one would have to party to a private conversation between two adults. This is just about impossible.
So how about type #2, the alcohol rules. These of course are not that big of a deal, because a club can just drop the alcohol. But it does seem to hamstring the industry though. The places which have lots and lots of clubs, like Portland, Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta, do not operate under any special alcohol rules, like no nudity or touching. Getting the mileage and overall service level way up would be helped if we did not have these sorts of rules. Alcohol restrictions discourage people from opening new clubs and they do reduce some patronage.
So this takes us to type #1, the Adult Entertainment rules. What these amount to is using some criterion to place a business into this special category, and then making it subject to rules which don't apply in any other situation. Now of course this is a completely unconstitutional abridgement of free speech. The current state of affairs is the result of legal efforts conducted in the 60's and 70's to overturn an earlier generation of such laws. The new laws are just as unconstitutional, its just that no one is challenging them and the politics might not be right.
They say that in Tennessee the entire state is now under such laws.
So I spoke before about how to form membership clubs, and get around most all of this, except of course 647(B). But by making it a membership club it is basically LE proof. So this is one way.
This is being done in many places, and I do believe that especially in the black versions of this they do use the lap sitting and makeout approach.
But there is another way, the expendable club. That is, start an SC without spending any more money than necessary. Such a business has no resale value. It is not intended to be resold anyway.
This would be a lot like how store front AMPs and Apartment AMPs are operated in Santa Clara County. They don't cost much to set up, and they probably won't last long. Of course an AAMP does not even have any type of business license. It just has foam rubber beds.
You can read the attorney's page about how aggressive LE is. But people just keep opening them faster than LE can close them.
We see in many parts of the country, rural places, low income places, places along the major highways, where there are these SC's which sound like they are extreme mileage. One area much talked about is of course South Carolina.
So this is another way, no membership forms, nothing.
But, a problem is that these Adult Entertainment regulations also make it very hard to open new SC's. It is hard to find a spot not too close to schools or residential areas. This is the idea, to make it as hard as possible. I know of one opened in the Garden City unincorporated area in Santa Clara County. They couldn't find any place else. It did not last long.
This is why with the last three non-San Francisco closings that I know of, local government flexed it's muscles and got the buildings torn down. They want to eliminate all the possible locations.
Club Ante, Hip Hugger, and Edge Water West ( maybe not a strip club ).
I know from Google Street View and from Tuscl, that in many places strip clubs are being built into or added to Adult Book Stores. This again shows the effect of these Adult Entertainment rules, very few places available. So they need to use these already established sites.
So to make new ones, we have to look to places where they either don't have such rules, where no one is interested in enforcing such rules, or where courts or general consensus has admitted that these rules are unconstitutional.
The problem with not being able to open more clubs is evident in the San Francisco Bay Area, and even in San Francisco itself.
The highest mileage place, Market St. Cinema is gone. Then the next highest, New Century, is now owned by Deja Vu. MBOT was never known as an FS place.
Then we have Crazy Horse, where the interactions with the dancers are all so regulated, and the money goes into counting machines so the house can take a deeper cut and both sides pay taxes. That stinks. I don't really know what goes on there, but I suspect it is just "extras" after handing a big roll to a dancer. Not my cup of tea. By the time you can get anywhere with a dancer, you have already spent so much that it is almost not worth it. And as far as FS, who knows. But the fantasy keeps the money coming in.
I want the black FS places where the girl will sit on your lap and get you to make out with her. I want this, so that I can get to know her and develop rapport with her, before handing over more money for FS in the back room. To get it this way we need to see more SC's opening, and being opened cheaply so that they don't need to last so long, and that there are so many of them that LE just gives up.
The main San Francisco clubs are all on land mark real estate and have world famous names. No one is going to take any chances with those, as they are already worth so much money. And the fantasy keeps the money coming in. I hear the same sorts of things about Magic City in Atlanta. They say that if you can spend $3k you can have whatever you want. Well that is so much money as to make the idea ridiculous. Maybe it is true, and maybe it happens some times. But so what. Mostly that is the sort of fantasy which keeps marks paying good money for nothing.
So we need more clubs, clubs opened cheaply.
Here they talk about an SF club I did not know about. I think though I may have been in their building once decades ago, when it was just a bar. At this place I suspect it may have been like these black dives.
But now it is closed, and San Francisco and the Bay Area are not going to be cheap places for anyone to open some new clubs to take its place.
I don't know if this place was ever listed on TUSCL.
I'll add one more point, about enforcement of PC 647(B). It depends on how it is being enforced and on the local politics pertaining to who gets busted.
We have heard of some recent busts in South Carolina. Probably these were based on open solicitation. Dancers probably were soliciting undercover cops. Of course these are the easiest busts for LE to make.
When Kamala Harris took over as San Francisco DA, she had such busts made and the most FS establishment in San Francisco, Market St. Cinema. Again it was probably open solicitation. Today this establishment is gone.
When there is no fear of LE, then it will go this way, open solicitation. The dancers what to make money, the don't want to dilly dally.
But what about when it is not like this?
Well then there is no way to make the bust except for LE to be part of the discussion and that usually means entrapment. So again, it depends on the local politics and the court. If the news papers are on the side of the strip club, as they were for Jim and Artie, then any hint of entrapment will work badly for police. It makes it look like police are getting treated to strippers on the public dime. Usually this is so.
But then, why are they going after dancers instead of owners or customers. So in more progressive places they need to go after owners. This is harder, but this is what they tried to do with Jim and Artie. It failed.
But in Santa Clara County in the early 90's, someone tried to bring in SF style lap dancing. LE made trouble for the owner, but they prosecuted dancers. They were committed to their extreme view of 647(B), that it covers any kind of touching for tips. Never have the convinced a jury to see it this way.
The newspapers are more conservative, and most dancers are not willing to try to fight it. So they will just plead no contest and leave town, like for San Francisco.
So again, the local politics is very important. Making membership clubs, which are just about LE proof is one way. Another way is disposable strip clubs in places where no one really cares what happens and where they are not supposed to last very long.
Also, the black FS approach of lap sitting and making out, gets very good results, but it is not direct verbal solicitation.
I think we need to establish some categories of Strip Club FS quality, so that we can be more precise when we talk about such things, and so that we can finally get beyond the "extras" model of the dancer performing a service upon the customer, and get to escort grade sessions.
We don't really need more sex act acronyms. What we have inherited from RB is sufficient. What we need are some descriptors which categorize the external parameters of the encounter.
1. Need to grease other palms to avoid disturbance? ( severe abuse of power )
2. Able to make comfortable position changes in available space?
3. Can do MSOG, and have that nice in between time?
4. House getting excessive amount money out of it ( more than Motel 6, $60 per night, or say $30 for 1 hour )
5. Access to bathroom ( for anal )
6. Nice private suit with bathing facilities? ( shoot for moon, like TJ Hong Kong Bar )
7. Girls can go off clock somewhat during in between times, and work in lunar cycle binge mode instead of on solar hours of day? ( TJ Hong Kong Bar )
8. Girl can come and go during her work shift, walk out door with you in stripper shoes to car or motel. Have onsite motel. ( maybe two places I know of like this now )
9. Guarded covered 24 hr parking for girl's car. Even plug in electric shuttle to offsite parking area.
10. Women can live on site, even with children, as in brothels of past centuries and in religious orders. Have special school for children.
11. Girl is only time keeper. She can let it go over if she wants to, to make it come out good?
12. Open 24 / 7 so after girl has napped with a customer during in between times, she can get right back into action and still make her lunar cycle cash quota. She needs to sleep, eat, and bathe, so she should be able to do it with customer if she wants to. Shouldn't cost her lost income to do this. Girl should be sole decision maker in all situations.
13. Low cost front room make out session. This is the black FS club style. No better way for a guy and a girl to get to know each other. No better way to set up phenomenal FS session!
We should aim high on this. Most of the laws preventing this are not really enforceable in the face of wide spread defiance.
More people are posting threads talking about kissing. We should support this
I think we should be careful though about saying things which could cause trouble for any specific club.
There are people on TUSCL who must know more about front room kissing and all of these issues then they have been willing to talk about.
There are places like Lingerie Modeling and Adult Entertainment. Usually these will have a higher "service level" when it comes to FS than the local SC's. But these other approaches give up the free and noncommittal fraternization which an SC offers. For high voltage visuals and this noncommittal fraternizing and just hanging out, nothing will ever beat a strip club. So it is just the actual FS service level which should be raised.
I think about my own experiences, store front AMPs / AAMPs / local zero mileage talking SC's / Mexican Bar table dancer circuit / San Francisco mid level mileage.
When it was great it was always because it got turned into a girl friend audition. That is, the girl had additional motivations. She wanted me for OTC. She wanted me as a regular. She wanted me to take her home with me that night ( going to sleep with her head on my shoulder or just being as open about wanting this as she could be ). She wanted to set up a civilian relationship. She just wanted to make something happen and was very open about this.
Well the reason it gets like this is that one has learned to manipulate the selection process, to make the girl feel special, and to let her get to know me, and to get her off of her service script.
Strip Clubs are the best venues for this. So now we just need to get the FS service level up.
In the areas I travel there are no rules I know of against kissing the dancers. It's kind of like anywhere else. " The Girl sets the rules in the game. If she wants kissed she will allow you to kiss her. If she wants caressed she will allow you to caress her. If she wants you to take care of you orally she will make that available to you. If she wants you to take care of her vaginally she will make that available to you either ITC or OTC. You just have to be able to read the signs. You need to be able to tell the difference between a red light and a green light. The only light that doesn't count is when you are licking their pussy or having vaginal sex with them. When they say STOP licking or stop fucking they don't mean stop they are just trying to be polite they don't really want you to stop they want you to GO GO GO !
"In the areas I travel there are no rules I know of against kissing the dancers. "
Generally this is how it is going to be! Any rules they claim to have are not going to be founded on much. In Mexico they kiss the strippers all the time. TUSCLer's have affirmed that it is just like Jestrite50 says at lots and lots of places.
Kissing her, extensively, and in the front room, should be the litmus test for going into any back rooms with her. Keep it light and gentle at first and talk to her too. Court her. Then what can happen in the backroom can be just splendid.
In storefront AMPs, it depends on the place and the girl. In South Bay they wouldn't want kissing in the front room, because someone might walk in and see it. In San Francisco, they don't care as they don't fear LE.
In some places FS is only by special request, and likewise kissing is less. But in San Francisco FS is at the top of the menu and there is also a lot more kissing. Mostly it depends on how you orchestrate it before getting the girl into the session room, on how she perceives you. Try to make her into your girlfriend before you even get to the session room and before you pay the house fee. But also, find a girl you actually like. Don't engage with one unless you would be liking to be waking up in the mornings with her.
Does the FS typically offered in SC VIP Rooms equal what is being had in AMPs? Then does it equal the escort grade GFE-MSOG sessions being offered in AAMPs? Getting to yes on both questions should be our objective, not more talk about "high mileage" and "extras".
Cabbie and hotel desk guy warned me that Miami clubs weren't worth it. I did long get why. I think they were racist or assumed I was because I was white. Both said clubs were full of immigrant women with little choices in life and that the hotest white girls all "worked" in the regular night clubs by choice and made money off of men that way - far more than a normal stripper would. They said that I would get better eye candy at a regular club versus a strip club.
I still wish I would not have listened to them and went to a SC in Miami anyway! With many on here raving about Miami strip clubs it sounds like some locals are perpetuating a myth to some travelers. Glad to read that you like Miami strip clubs.
53 comments
Fuck you jackie
Ken
1. TJ (duh)
2. Detroit
3. East St. Louis area
4. Northwest Indiana area
5. COI
6. ATL
7. PHX
In California the main obstacle is PC 647(B), basically contracting for sex or lewd conduct. This is what the higher felony charge of Pandering depends on.
http://law.onecle.com/california/penal/6…
Except for Nevada and its legal houses, all 50 states have something very similar to this. No wonder then that Mexico and Canada benefit from tourism.
Where I am, Santa Clara County, our DA's Office is committed to not letting it get to be like San Francisco. So they want to uphold their interpretation that even getting pawed or flashing for tips violate 647(B). This really sucks. They crush anyone who challenges this.
In San Francisco the state's PC is of course the same. But Jim and Artie Mitchell were able to beat the wrap because they were fearless and willing to be tried in front of a jury, and because the newspapers were on their side, and because the politics are more liberal.
Read, Bottom Feeders, by John Hubner. Absolutely fascinating.
Also, Jim and Artie were able to get the State Supreme Court under Rose Bird to overturn all the Victorian Era "Red Light Abatement" laws. What these laws did was enable the closing of a business, without there ever having been a jury which determined that the law was being broken.
Problem is though, in the years since the 60's and 70's many places, including where I am, have instituted these Adult Entertainment Ordinances. These are intended to replace the earlier ordinances which high courts struck down as abrogations against constitutionally protected Freedom of Speech.
What it amounts to is that if a local government feels that your business is adult oriented, then they can require that you obtain a permit. The permit does not actually allow you to do anything which you could not otherwise do, but it does subject you to a whole host of new regulations. These regulations do not apply anywhere else, except in a licensed adult entertainment establishment.
So for a strip club these include things like, no tush exposure unless the entertainer is on a raised stage of 18" min height and no customer is allowed to get within 6'. Any private dance areas are of course subject to this.
What they are doing is imposing all sorts of restrictions before they have obtained even any evidence that their extreme interpretation of PC 647(B) is being violated. It also makes the strip club subject to easy inspections.
Now of course this is all just as unconstitutional as the earlier ordinances the courts overturned. Its just that few people have the money to engage in such a fight.
Now in San Francisco, one of the reasons Jim and Artie were able to beat 647(B) is that in their lap dancing club, there were no booths or back rooms, and there was no negotiation of fees. So it was just $1 tips to a girl sitting on your lap. How far this went varied, but they did prohibit FS and fire girls who violated.
But their basic legal argument was that this was not for sexual gratification because it was being done in front of the audience. It was an audience participation cabaret show.
Jim and Artie had seen something in NYC where guys paid some money and got to take a turn doing some DATY on a woman. Artie told the press about the Nieman Marcus Dept Store. He said that at MBOT they were to be the Nieman Marcus of sex.
This worked, in San Francisco, until Jim shot Artie dead.
But then came Willey Brown as Mayor and Terence Hallinan as DA. Hallinan's position was that there is no crime unless there is a victim, and so consenting adults could do whatever they wanted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_Hal…
So Market St. Cinema and New Century built these huge new private rooms, and all the SF clubs were going to private booths and they most certainly did negotiate fee for service up front.
As a matter of practicality, if the girls are cagey and make the guy make the offer first, then if that guy is a cop, that is entrapment. So it worked.
Once Hallinan was succeeded though, the first thing his replacement did was have 647(B) arrests made at the Market St. Cinema. She then went on to become State AG, and today the Market St. Cinema is closed.
Also I think some of the problem in San Francisco now is just that these businesses have world famous names and land mark real estate, so they are worth too much money themselves to take any chances with them.
What they instead do is lower the "mileage" to a level that the cops won't do anything about. This seems to be "extras" ( LDK, HJ, BJ ) but excluding FS.
It would be hard for a cop to do anything about this. I mean really, the idea of our big brave police officers going undercover with a role of department cash just to see which strippers are pliable. In San Francisco the police would be made into a laughing stock. But this is not true in places like San Mateo or Santa Clara Counties.
Also, the clubs seem to like this idea of open ended expensive fantasy. They won't say what it prohibited, as that would entail admission as to what is actually going on. So instead they like the idea being put out that anything could potentially be possible, but it is just very expensive. Maybe once in a while something beyond the usual envelop does indeed occur, but so what. Very hard to actually know.
Of course I don't like anything about this. I like the women, but that would be for civilian relationships and have very little to do with the clubs they work in.
But from reading TUSCL and blackstripclubs.net it is clear that there are many places in the country where they don't enforce anything or have any interest in ever doing so.
I say that the best is when the girls will makeout with you and get into heavy petting in the main room, and then only go to the VIP room when the customer's pants will be coming down. In these places FS is not a higher level of extra, it is an act of submission. I do plan to be in these places, and in TJ's Hong Kong Bar.
SJG
Having said this, in many cities you will have one or two outlier clubs that are more lenient than other clubs in those same cities. Rather than trying to plan a trip by identifying looser areas, it may make more sense to find places you want to go for other reasons and then research the available options for those areas on here.
But truth be told though, the older I get, the less interested I am in having my pants down around my ankles in a backroom of a shitty strip club. Most of my p4p is OTC with dancers and it works out well for me, inconveniences aside.
Heck, Grand Rapids is only bikini dances. And other places vary, but no where close to Big-D.
Isn’t Philly pretty lenient – I’ve even heard underground clubs are pretty common there
With the recent events in Ferguson, MO and the increased concern about law enforcement priorities and tactics, I wonder if this might be a good time for people to lobby for some limitations on the reach of LE and for common sense in prioritizing the focus of LE activities. I mean, why invest taxpayer money in preventing consenting adults from having sex, even if money (or rent or marriage licenses or dinner and a movie) is involved in the agreement.
Even though Detroit is amazingly (and hopefully permanently!) tolerant of strip club activities, the Detroit police periodically raid strip clubs, while wearing ski masks. Most of the time, they check for expired dance cards, outstanding arrest warrants and sometimes even give out a ticket for indecent exposure (WTF?). On very rare occasion, they find an underage dancer (I too find this unacceptable-- I'm OK with nearly anything between consenting adults for not underage or coerced activities). None of these "offenses" seem to present a major threat to public safety. I wonder if ACLU (known for taking on unpopular causes in the interest of protecting civil rights) or other civil/individual rights groups have a position on this?
I'm tempted to say the ('close enough' to a state) province of Ontario... but I doubt the selection would be much outside of GTA
1. Drugged up
2. Drunk
3. Mexico
4. Post stripper car wreck
Orlando = sucks (not in a good way).
Miami = Good.
Tampa = good.
Jacksonville = sucks.
You get the picture.
You've written about dating strippers, almost like it is some kind of a sport. If you're dating strippers then you should be getting earfuls of all the inside dope on your hometown clubs from across your own bedroom pillow. Really, if you're dating strippers, I don't know why you'd even be wanting to pay money for these "extras", except maybe just to flatter a girl and play along with her some.
Trixxi,
As always your posts shed much needed light into the darkness of confusion which pervades this discussion forum. Please, the more you can post the better.
No reason to mention club names, and no one should ever mention dancer names, but about so many subjects there is just so much confusion.
I want to return briefly and add to my discussion of the legal issues behind S.F.'s MBOT and the origins of Lap Dancing. It is always difficult for LE to enforce 647(B). There is nothing about sex that is illegal. There is nothing about used condoms which is illegal. There is nothing which would establish a crime except for this meeting of the minds which constituted the contract between two consenting adults.
So usually when 647(B) is enforced, LE is trampling on Due Process and other Constitutional protections. What they are betting on is that the bust will not be seriously contested. When it comes to the operators of strip clubs, they make it into a felony and just intimidate the operator into pleading guilty. In Santa Clara County they want to uphold their extreme view of 647(B), without ever having to put it before a jury.
So what is far more harmful than 647(B) are these local Adult Entertainment Ordinances. These are written to be inspectable. They are regulations which do not apply on the sidewalk outside a strip club, in a park, in a shopping mall, or anywhere except in a licensed Adult Entertainment Establishment. These regulations exist without there ever having been any proof that any law was ever broken. What it amounts to is just saying that since they don't like a particular type of business, they are making the decision that it does not enjoy 1st Amendment protection.
Now in the case of Jim and Artie Mitchell, it was never just about money, it was always about thumbing their nose at the authorities.
A critical day was when Jim Mitchell was a Film Studies Major at SFSU, on the day of a major protest against the War in Vietnam. He was on the top floor of a building looking down on the protesters.
Then he went home to the Pittsburg / Antioch area on the Delta. His working class friends did not like the "long hairs" who protested the war. They were up in arms about the riot they had just seen on television. But Jim was there to see the whole thing himself. He saw that it was not these long hairs who started the riot. It was started by guys wearing sun glasses and talking into walkie talkies who started shoving people towards the center from all sides, simultaneously. Once violence erupted, then the SFPD Tactical Squad stormed in and further escalated it.
So from their times with movies through the lap dancing era, Jim and Artie were always taunting the authorities. They didn't just want to get away with stuff, they wanted to get away with it out in the open.
They courted the news media, by inviting reporters up to their office suite, which was the second floor of MBOT. Dancers say they were being used as party favors. I'm sure this was true.
Based on what Jim and seen in NYC and on what was going on in Amsterdam, they built this DATY oriented facility. It would have been much like what is shown here in this Madonna video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snsTmi9N…
Customers would have their own little stall, with a window. They were to be offered a little sampling of DATY.
But when they first opened it, they had glass windows installed. They waited until after they were arrested and booked. Then the next day, out on bail with their cases pending, they removed the glass.
They always did it like this, starting very soft core, and then after they were arrested, ratcheting it up. They were always baiting and taunting the authorities. With movies and then the contact strip shows, they were each arrested and booked over 100 times.
They hired expert civil liberties lawyers, and they never dealt. They always had the newspapers on their side.
Now with these places people are talking about here as being lenient, it is a very different story. These are places where no one really cares what is going on, these are dives, there is a racial divide, or they are looking at is as out of state money coming in, or something. They do what they do, but they don't boast about it.
We are coming up on Sept, and the 9th is California's 1850 Admission Day. But there were actually 5 parts of this compromise package of legislation, like the admission of Texas. The most contentious would be the Fugitive Slave Act, effective everywhere, even in California.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Slave_Act…
Massachusetts led the way in opposing the enforcement of the act, by making its own laws prohibiting the use of any of its own facilities in the renditioning of suspected fugitive slaves. This led to many street and court house brawls in the decade which followed, and even one instance where a Deputy Federal Marshall was shot dead.
SJG
Dazed and Confused
www.tuscl.net/ms.php?ToUserID=304007&RID…
I think we do need to exert some discretion here and not make it too easy for people using text search engines, so I won't mention the place name. But I read what you are saying to Ranukam and it completely jives with what I can discern from many hundreds of miles away. I think some of it is just how many clubs there are. I noticed that 20 years ago when I was there for a conference and found that every bar I looked into as I walked through the downtown, had strippers.
So now today, given that there are so many clubs and that there must be so many dancers and that these clubs are competing with each other, the extreme mileage in these 'dives' comes a no surprise.
I think that city and its clubs must be lots of fun! More than anything else, I have the impression that the dancers themselves must have a great deal of control over it. As long as you only have to deal with the dancer, and the club management has not set up all sorts of ways to regulate it, there should be no problem. I hope to be able to visit that place soon and to establish some long term contacts.
The reason I mention this now, is to contrast it with some other situations I have seen, for example in San Francisco.
There is a type of strip club known as the Clip Joint. They are selling a fantasy, and selling it at a high price. The original example of this would be in some of the Go-Go Bars. There the women dance and waitresse. But you can also invite them to sit down and have a drink with you. These kinds of places can be fun, like at the Brass Rail in Sunnyvale, or like in would imagine it must have been like at Larry Flynt's original 8 clubs in Southern Ohio.
But the way some of these ran was different. You could invite the girl to sit down and have a drink at your table. But you could also pay hundreds of dollars and invite her to have a drink with you in the VIP Room. Now she would get some of that money, in order to get her to go along with this. People would pay that money because they believed that something was to be had for it. But in fact, having the drink with her in the VIP Room was no different from in the main room. Nothing was going to happen. Some people just came in there and wanted to be separated from their money.
While what is happening in San Francisco is not quite that blatant, I do feel that it is similar. What it comes down to is selling a fantasy, an open ended and expensive fantasy, and a management which had gone way to far in regulating the interactions between the dancers and the customers, in order to make money off of them.
And this gets to another even broader issue. There is a great deal of sexual dysfunction and sexual pain in our society. This is evident in the posts on this forum. Ideally what happens at a strip club could help to heal this. But sometimes this is not the case, as what happens at the strip club only serves to compound it. I see overwhelming evidence that this is happening just from reading this forum.
In John Hubner's book Bottom Feeders, about Jim and Artie Mitchell, he has countless dancer interviews. There was an original group of dancers who did the zero touching strip shows. Customers were not even allowed to get close to the stage, and so they got zero tips. They got paid a flat rate by the house.
Then finally Jim and Artie decided that they could go out into the house and sit on laps. So there would be no more pay, and there would be an access fee. This original group of dancers decided that the rate should be $1 per minute. This was to apply no matter how much mileage there was to be. It was always just $1 per minute. They knew that they could not try and negotiate fees, or that could result in legal trouble.
They ended up getting a net pay over four times greater than what they had been getting, so they were very happy. They saw themselves as missionaries of a sort. Business travelers, much older than they, were coming from all areas of the country. They were people who had not benefited from the Sexual Revolution. So this experience of the pretty girl sitting on their lap ( with or without some sort of mileage occurring ) was a real eye opener. They weren't spending that much money. They were leaving blown away by how open these girls were able to be with strangers.
I also had an early lap sitting experience with a girl that I hope to write an article about, explaining how it effected me.
Likewise, these dives you write about, with the extreme mileage being largely in control of the girl, sound like tremendous fun.
Also, I find the Sunnyvale no touching bikini bars to be tremendous fun. There are lots of ways to engage in verbal flirting and sometimes even to get into very sexualized talk. These are still basically ordinary girls, and only a fool would not see that. The cost is modest, and no one is being harmed.
I have also partaken extensively in this underground table dancing circuit which operated in Mexican Bars. There, not so many rules are enforced. There is a great deal of touching, and it is all out in the main room. Also, in those venues, with most of the girls, OTC is most certainly available. But I still found it all to be tremendous fun, and a real eye opener. The Latinas are the best, just because of how open they are able to be with everybody. Interacting with them and trying to escalate just feels great.
But on this board what I am constantly hearing about is another form of club, the "extras" club, or the "LDK" club, where the costs are quite high, and guys often have very little communications with the dancers. I feel that this way of using strip clubs and these sorts of clubs themselves are promoting the very sorts of sexual dysfunction which so plagues are society.
On this board I have been flabbergasted by some of the things I have heard people trying to defend:
1. That dancers are compelled by club management to administer lap dances to patrons ( panties off dry humping 'till completion ) even if they don't want to.
2. That there is no reason to talk to dancers, as what happens in the LD booth will be the same anyway.
3. That even such a basic thing as a guy's marital status will not influence how a dancer perceives them.
To me there is something very seriously wrong with this "extras" model, and these sorts of views are evidence of that. Somehow these guys have gotten the idea that it is the dancer's job to get them off, and that this exchange should be their primary means of relating to dancers. They treat them as vending machines.
Now I can understand reasons why dancers might like this set up, because it puts them in control of the interaction, and so it makes it so much easier. But I still think there is something wrong about the guys who are going along with it.
I offer here as an example of my concern this S.F. Crazy Horse.
In terms of the eclecticism of its girl, Crazy Horse still is one of the best. But I for one would not want to spend money there.
Here I show you the floor plan. They have two sections of 6 booths each. You can click on them to see them expand. The booths in one of the sections are larger than in the other.
http://www.crazyhorse-sf.com/floorplan.h…
To me this looks like something someone has carefully designed for what it prevents.
And then on top of this, the money goes into counting machines. Of course this makes it possible for the house to take a deeper cut. And then probably the real reason they are doing this is as a peace treaty with the IRS. Both sides now are going to have to report the income.
So one guy was coming from somewhere to SF and wanted FS-ITC. Some posted that it could be had at Crazy Horse. I questioned this. The more it was discussed the more it sounded like just a rumor, and a very expensive open ended rumor, where maybe only 10% of the dancers would do it.
I would suspect that if someone was waving around lots of money, he would just be fixed up with someone for OTC.
But see where I am going with this, it still is just another means of promoting the idea that sex always has to cost money, that it is expensive, and that usually people just have to be frustrated, and that you aren't really going to be communicating with dancers. To me the Crazy Horse, as it operates today, does not sound like a fun place at all.
Whereas, these dives you talk about sound fun. I am also intrigued by what someone was describing as the early days of high and extreme mileage in Texas. Dancers would build 'forts' out of chairs and blankets, in order to create a private space. So then probably the management had nothing to do with this. The dancers could just do it their way. The dancers would be the ones keeping track of time. Probably it was really good!
This brings me to my last major issue, which I have been posting about in one form or another on many threads. I feel that with some of these highly structured places that FS-ITC does go on, but it is done in this "extras" format. That is, the dancer drives it, she is on top, literally, and there is no surrender.
Sure she can get herself off, but that is no big deal. She can cum more times in 30 min than I can in 24 hours. But unless there is surrender, it is still almost not even like sex.
And in fact, based on a posted narrative, I believe that some of these dancers don't even consider this extras form of FS to be sex.
So I think this is just compounding sexual dysfunction and frustration, as well as the cultural dynamics which cause this.
You have mentioned dives that sound great. No need to mention names. But just in general, when FS-ITC happens is there enough time, and is there enough space to make comfortable position changes so the guy can be expressive and lead it. This is how one gets the girl to open up, instead of staying dissociated. If I am to be with a girl for the first time, usually when it is time to bring it on home, I am going to want to put her on her back and make it real nice for her.
And then of course, will the girls engage in makeout sessions. More than anything, I feel that this is what lets them open up so that it can be real. Best if they do this DFKing in the main room and for modest tips, before going to the VIP Room and getting the larger lumped sum. If the two parties can get along with each other well enough to let this happen, then the probability of FS going off splendidly is very high.
These places can be fun, they can be life changing, and they can be sources of healing. I know that most of the dancers want it to be this way. It is just that when the management has found too many ways to control the interactions, then these places can actually be harmful, and I feel that on this board we are continually being treated to posting which demonstrates the effects of this. In my humble opinion, much of what is currently going on in San Francisco is an example of these sorts of frustration and harm inducing SC's.
SJG
Come Undone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLiVwpv…
Dazed and Confused (corrected link)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzZ6pyRG…
What you say about Louisville is interesting because that had been a place known for high "mileage", at least in the black clubs, as reported on blackstripclubs.net. Louisville was a nice mileage place and one got the sense that probably anything could be had. But, they also were passing these adult entertainment ordinances, making illegal things which would not be illegal anywhere else.
So what you are saying, given that you have recent reviews from Louisville, is encouraging. It gives one reason to hope for places like Memphis Tennessee, and Jackson Mississippi, which also were reported to have had great places, until they passed such laws. So maybe, at least in some places, maybe in the black places, no one is really interested in enforcing such laws.
SJG
Amy Winehouse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF-Ai1HD…
I'm not going to mention the location your are speaking of or the club, so as to not make it any easier than necessary for people using text search engines. Of the club you mentioned, I had seen accounts of it saying the bar tender could also do dances, "should the need arise". Sounded like she was very good at it as the people were most pleased.
I am glad to hear that the new regulations have not destroyed this.
But I will wonder though, you talk about "nutting in a dancer's mouth" and of the entire visit only taking 15min. Is the issue still coming down to pressure from law enforcement. Are they able to also do FS, and are they set up to offer it nicely? Or have they just figured that they had better keep it to these "extras". It is not that these are really that much different from a legal point of view, maybe it is just that LE knows that they have to compromise some.
This is indeed what seems to have happened at the San Francisco clubs. "Extras" are pretty much standard, but we are not clear how much FS exists. Someone was coming to SF and wanted FS-ITC. I found the information posted to be very unclear, almost more like rumors. The idea is that potentially anything is possible, if you have unlimited amounts of money. So maybe if you spent a great deal of money buttering up a dancer, or several dancers, and then had still more money, it might be possible. But still not clear.
I hope at the clubs you are going to that good FS-ITC is a reality, and not just an expensive fantasy.
You can read below about how I don't really go for this "extras" approach.
discussion of reversal of the "extras" approach, giving the dancer "blue balls" instead
https://www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=3…
San_Jose_Guy
strip-club-news.blogspot.com/
Cream RAH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIKfECOE…
The example I gave was just that, an example intended to illustrate the differences in clubs within the same city as a counter point to the implication put forth by some that cities tend towards homogeneity.
It wasn't intended to describe the *limits* of what's possible.
That'll kill your bandwidth!
You can get away with a lot in Philly too if you go to the right places.
As for Nevada, aside from the brothels (and I am speaking specifically about Las Vegas), I have never gotten very far ITC and OTC those bitches want way too much money.....
What could be best about a strip club is that chance just to See, Want, and then to Have, right then and there, without letting the girl get out of your grip.
There are probably some places where there is a motel right there. I know of one probable and I have heard of another which could well be like that.
So it seems like there are several issues. 1st, these unconstitutional adult entertainment ordinances. These are very easy to enforce, and they kill everything.
Without these, then there are rules which come with having an alcoholic beverage license. These can also kill everything, so some clubs will just give up the alcohol. I like this myself, but I know that it does throttle the industry. Places that have lots of strip clubs, like Portland, do not have such rules.
So then beyond this it is just PC 647(B), and how much time and energy the authorities want to put into enforcing it. It is also a matter of who they arrest, dancers, customers, or the owner. In more politically progressive environments, they can only go after the owner, and this is much more difficult. But most of the time in most places they do go after dancers, and they bust them just on open solicitation.
So it really then is just what places have the authorities just decided to leave alone. Here on TUSCL there is not that much open discussion of this. There was some on blackstripclubs.net.
There is a new business model for this which I like. The membership club. They are copying the approach taken by swing clubs. Everyone must show ID and fill out a confidential form and pay a one time fee. Doing this exempts them from all laws pertaining to public nudity or sex acts. So really, anything could happen on stage, near the stage, or in the main room.
They loose the ability to sell alcohol, so they often let people bring their own.
Now they are not exempt from the Penal Code, but as a matter of practice it becomes impossible to enforce some laws in such situations.
I know of such places now in Northwest Indiana, in Northern New Jersey, and in Northern West Virginia and near Pittsburg. I bet they are fantastic! These are openly strip clubs, not masquerading as swingers clubs.
I do not know of any near me. But there was this famous place called Edge Water West in Oakland. It was supposedly a swingers club, but to me it looked like P4P. I do not actually know this though and people I have asked have denied it. Also, one Sunnyvale dancer told me that there were membership clubs. The only thing I could imagine that she might have been talking about would have been this Edgewater.
Oakland got the building torn down as part of a large re-development effort. Cities do this when they really want to get rid of a place.
I think this business model has real merits!
SJG
Heart, Stairway to Heaven
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf2O3OAQj…
The place I know of which has the most such places I forgot to mention, Prince George County Maryland
SJG
I think the reason is that since the place is basically anything goes, if you don't prohibit touching when the dancer is on stage, she won't do her set. She will just start climbing onto whoever sits at her stage, and then have them lift her clear of the stage.
So if they want it to have the aesthetics of a strip club, they do need to impose this one type of no touching rule. After she is done though, anything goes.
In black FS places this usually means she starts climbing onto laps and getting guys to make out with her. Known from numerous detailed reviews on blackstripclubs.net ( down now )
I think this membership club business model is very promising for extreme mileage SC's.
1. Dolled up hotties
2. Casual and non-committal fraternizing at low cost. Never have to give thumbs up or thumbs down on any of them. Not like "Lingerie Modeling", "Adult Entertainment", or "Massage Places". SC's are easy going and relaxed places for hanging out.
3. Front room make out session for sitting tips. Best way to get to know them. You can lead it with talk and action.
4. Without girl having to change clothes, take off shoes, or drive car, retreat to private space for escort grade session. House gets little or none of the money for this. Girl is in charge and girl keeps the time. Bouncers and drink servers better not interfere in any way.
We should be insisting upon this and getting this.
On stripper web they don't like SC DFKing. But when they talk about escorting, that is always a given.
SJG
Iron Butterfly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIVe-rZB…
D.C. is no touching. People say Virginia SC's are crumby. This probably means no mileage. Santa Clara County and San Mateo County have zero touching. Atlanta is known for air dances. And I find that San Francisco is lacking, since I want escort grade FS, not "extras", exemplified by a place like Crazy Horse.
So what sorts of legal restrictions are causing this, and then what do we do about this?
These restrictions come in three types as we have been talking about:
1. Adult Entertainment Rules
2. Alcohol Rules
3. PC-647(B)
Lets talk about #3 first, as it is the simplest. This is the moral justification for all of the other restrictions. It is all the basis of the more serious felony charges which they can apply. But 647(B) is almost impossible to enforce without trampling on constitutional protections of probable cause and privacy. When you have lots and lots of strip clubs, and lots of people involved, it just becomes impractical. I am convinced that this is what is happening in many places in the country now. There is no law against, sex, money, or condoms. To prove the crime one would have to party to a private conversation between two adults. This is just about impossible.
http://www.bernardbraylaw.com/practice-a…
So how about type #2, the alcohol rules. These of course are not that big of a deal, because a club can just drop the alcohol. But it does seem to hamstring the industry though. The places which have lots and lots of clubs, like Portland, Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta, do not operate under any special alcohol rules, like no nudity or touching. Getting the mileage and overall service level way up would be helped if we did not have these sorts of rules. Alcohol restrictions discourage people from opening new clubs and they do reduce some patronage.
So this takes us to type #1, the Adult Entertainment rules. What these amount to is using some criterion to place a business into this special category, and then making it subject to rules which don't apply in any other situation. Now of course this is a completely unconstitutional abridgement of free speech. The current state of affairs is the result of legal efforts conducted in the 60's and 70's to overturn an earlier generation of such laws. The new laws are just as unconstitutional, its just that no one is challenging them and the politics might not be right.
They say that in Tennessee the entire state is now under such laws.
So I spoke before about how to form membership clubs, and get around most all of this, except of course 647(B). But by making it a membership club it is basically LE proof. So this is one way.
This is being done in many places, and I do believe that especially in the black versions of this they do use the lap sitting and makeout approach.
But there is another way, the expendable club. That is, start an SC without spending any more money than necessary. Such a business has no resale value. It is not intended to be resold anyway.
This would be a lot like how store front AMPs and Apartment AMPs are operated in Santa Clara County. They don't cost much to set up, and they probably won't last long. Of course an AAMP does not even have any type of business license. It just has foam rubber beds.
You can read the attorney's page about how aggressive LE is. But people just keep opening them faster than LE can close them.
We see in many parts of the country, rural places, low income places, places along the major highways, where there are these SC's which sound like they are extreme mileage. One area much talked about is of course South Carolina.
So this is another way, no membership forms, nothing.
But, a problem is that these Adult Entertainment regulations also make it very hard to open new SC's. It is hard to find a spot not too close to schools or residential areas. This is the idea, to make it as hard as possible. I know of one opened in the Garden City unincorporated area in Santa Clara County. They couldn't find any place else. It did not last long.
This is why with the last three non-San Francisco closings that I know of, local government flexed it's muscles and got the buildings torn down. They want to eliminate all the possible locations.
Club Ante, Hip Hugger, and Edge Water West ( maybe not a strip club ).
I know from Google Street View and from Tuscl, that in many places strip clubs are being built into or added to Adult Book Stores. This again shows the effect of these Adult Entertainment rules, very few places available. So they need to use these already established sites.
So to make new ones, we have to look to places where they either don't have such rules, where no one is interested in enforcing such rules, or where courts or general consensus has admitted that these rules are unconstitutional.
The problem with not being able to open more clubs is evident in the San Francisco Bay Area, and even in San Francisco itself.
The highest mileage place, Market St. Cinema is gone. Then the next highest, New Century, is now owned by Deja Vu. MBOT was never known as an FS place.
Then we have Crazy Horse, where the interactions with the dancers are all so regulated, and the money goes into counting machines so the house can take a deeper cut and both sides pay taxes. That stinks. I don't really know what goes on there, but I suspect it is just "extras" after handing a big roll to a dancer. Not my cup of tea. By the time you can get anywhere with a dancer, you have already spent so much that it is almost not worth it. And as far as FS, who knows. But the fantasy keeps the money coming in.
I want the black FS places where the girl will sit on your lap and get you to make out with her. I want this, so that I can get to know her and develop rapport with her, before handing over more money for FS in the back room. To get it this way we need to see more SC's opening, and being opened cheaply so that they don't need to last so long, and that there are so many of them that LE just gives up.
The main San Francisco clubs are all on land mark real estate and have world famous names. No one is going to take any chances with those, as they are already worth so much money. And the fantasy keeps the money coming in. I hear the same sorts of things about Magic City in Atlanta. They say that if you can spend $3k you can have whatever you want. Well that is so much money as to make the idea ridiculous. Maybe it is true, and maybe it happens some times. But so what. Mostly that is the sort of fantasy which keeps marks paying good money for nothing.
So we need more clubs, clubs opened cheaply.
Here they talk about an SF club I did not know about. I think though I may have been in their building once decades ago, when it was just a bar. At this place I suspect it may have been like these black dives.
But now it is closed, and San Francisco and the Bay Area are not going to be cheap places for anyone to open some new clubs to take its place.
I don't know if this place was ever listed on TUSCL.
Pink Diamonds:
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Te…
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7833447,…
Anyway, so besides the LE proof membership club, the basically disposable cheaply opened club is another approach which seems to work.
Threads:
is FS-ITC so good that it replaces escort sessions?
www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=30548
legal issues in raising SC service level
www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=30622
Blue Balls? rejecting the "extras" model and instead acting upon the dancer
www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=30705
DFKing, why wait for the VIP Room, do it in the main room
www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=30488
More than just test driving, getting her completely off script
www.tuscl.net/postread.php?PID=30505
SJG
Crazy Horse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw18eQxs…
Chaka Khan, Germany
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cpo0_snehY
We have heard of some recent busts in South Carolina. Probably these were based on open solicitation. Dancers probably were soliciting undercover cops. Of course these are the easiest busts for LE to make.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamala_Harris
When Kamala Harris took over as San Francisco DA, she had such busts made and the most FS establishment in San Francisco, Market St. Cinema. Again it was probably open solicitation. Today this establishment is gone.
When there is no fear of LE, then it will go this way, open solicitation. The dancers what to make money, the don't want to dilly dally.
But what about when it is not like this?
Well then there is no way to make the bust except for LE to be part of the discussion and that usually means entrapment. So again, it depends on the local politics and the court. If the news papers are on the side of the strip club, as they were for Jim and Artie, then any hint of entrapment will work badly for police. It makes it look like police are getting treated to strippers on the public dime. Usually this is so.
But then, why are they going after dancers instead of owners or customers. So in more progressive places they need to go after owners. This is harder, but this is what they tried to do with Jim and Artie. It failed.
But in Santa Clara County in the early 90's, someone tried to bring in SF style lap dancing. LE made trouble for the owner, but they prosecuted dancers. They were committed to their extreme view of 647(B), that it covers any kind of touching for tips. Never have the convinced a jury to see it this way.
The newspapers are more conservative, and most dancers are not willing to try to fight it. So they will just plead no contest and leave town, like for San Francisco.
So again, the local politics is very important. Making membership clubs, which are just about LE proof is one way. Another way is disposable strip clubs in places where no one really cares what happens and where they are not supposed to last very long.
Also, the black FS approach of lap sitting and making out, gets very good results, but it is not direct verbal solicitation.
I think we need to establish some categories of Strip Club FS quality, so that we can be more precise when we talk about such things, and so that we can finally get beyond the "extras" model of the dancer performing a service upon the customer, and get to escort grade sessions.
SJG
Jefferson Starship
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D2x2MWDt24
We don't really need more sex act acronyms. What we have inherited from RB is sufficient. What we need are some descriptors which categorize the external parameters of the encounter.
1. Need to grease other palms to avoid disturbance? ( severe abuse of power )
2. Able to make comfortable position changes in available space?
3. Can do MSOG, and have that nice in between time?
4. House getting excessive amount money out of it ( more than Motel 6, $60 per night, or say $30 for 1 hour )
5. Access to bathroom ( for anal )
6. Nice private suit with bathing facilities? ( shoot for moon, like TJ Hong Kong Bar )
7. Girls can go off clock somewhat during in between times, and work in lunar cycle binge mode instead of on solar hours of day? ( TJ Hong Kong Bar )
8. Girl can come and go during her work shift, walk out door with you in stripper shoes to car or motel. Have onsite motel. ( maybe two places I know of like this now )
9. Guarded covered 24 hr parking for girl's car. Even plug in electric shuttle to offsite parking area.
10. Women can live on site, even with children, as in brothels of past centuries and in religious orders. Have special school for children.
11. Girl is only time keeper. She can let it go over if she wants to, to make it come out good?
12. Open 24 / 7 so after girl has napped with a customer during in between times, she can get right back into action and still make her lunar cycle cash quota. She needs to sleep, eat, and bathe, so she should be able to do it with customer if she wants to. Shouldn't cost her lost income to do this. Girl should be sole decision maker in all situations.
13. Low cost front room make out session. This is the black FS club style. No better way for a guy and a girl to get to know each other. No better way to set up phenomenal FS session!
We should aim high on this. Most of the laws preventing this are not really enforceable in the face of wide spread defiance.
More people are posting threads talking about kissing. We should support this
I think we should be careful though about saying things which could cause trouble for any specific club.
There are people on TUSCL who must know more about front room kissing and all of these issues then they have been willing to talk about.
There are places like Lingerie Modeling and Adult Entertainment. Usually these will have a higher "service level" when it comes to FS than the local SC's. But these other approaches give up the free and noncommittal fraternization which an SC offers. For high voltage visuals and this noncommittal fraternizing and just hanging out, nothing will ever beat a strip club. So it is just the actual FS service level which should be raised.
I think about my own experiences, store front AMPs / AAMPs / local zero mileage talking SC's / Mexican Bar table dancer circuit / San Francisco mid level mileage.
When it was great it was always because it got turned into a girl friend audition. That is, the girl had additional motivations. She wanted me for OTC. She wanted me as a regular. She wanted me to take her home with me that night ( going to sleep with her head on my shoulder or just being as open about wanting this as she could be ). She wanted to set up a civilian relationship. She just wanted to make something happen and was very open about this.
Well the reason it gets like this is that one has learned to manipulate the selection process, to make the girl feel special, and to let her get to know me, and to get her off of her service script.
Strip Clubs are the best venues for this. So now we just need to get the FS service level up.
SJG
Santana ft Michelle Branch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKLnmMac…
Generally this is how it is going to be! Any rules they claim to have are not going to be founded on much. In Mexico they kiss the strippers all the time. TUSCLer's have affirmed that it is just like Jestrite50 says at lots and lots of places.
Kissing her, extensively, and in the front room, should be the litmus test for going into any back rooms with her. Keep it light and gentle at first and talk to her too. Court her. Then what can happen in the backroom can be just splendid.
In storefront AMPs, it depends on the place and the girl. In South Bay they wouldn't want kissing in the front room, because someone might walk in and see it. In San Francisco, they don't care as they don't fear LE.
In some places FS is only by special request, and likewise kissing is less. But in San Francisco FS is at the top of the menu and there is also a lot more kissing. Mostly it depends on how you orchestrate it before getting the girl into the session room, on how she perceives you. Try to make her into your girlfriend before you even get to the session room and before you pay the house fee. But also, find a girl you actually like. Don't engage with one unless you would be liking to be waking up in the mornings with her.
Does the FS typically offered in SC VIP Rooms equal what is being had in AMPs? Then does it equal the escort grade GFE-MSOG sessions being offered in AAMPs? Getting to yes on both questions should be our objective, not more talk about "high mileage" and "extras".
https://sites.google.com/site/sjgportal/
SJG
DP, Woman From Tokyo, live
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvTTsSys…
I still wish I would not have listened to them and went to a SC in Miami anyway! With many on here raving about Miami strip clubs it sounds like some locals are perpetuating a myth to some travelers. Glad to read that you like Miami strip clubs.