My dictionary defines "scam" as "a fraudulant scheme, especially for making money quickly." Do very many dancers routinely do that? Not in my experience. But I've know of several dancers who were victims of customer scams. In fact I'd venture to say that customers are as guilty as dancers when it comes to scamming in clubs. Yes ther are naive customers. But there are just as many and maybe more naive dancers.
I agree, no scam intended. She laid out the conditions of the bargain she was proposing, you declined. The fact that she tried to make it sound like the club's rules rather than her own is irrelevant. Now if she had said, for $20 per song you can touch me anywhere but under the thong, than objected once you got into the LD room, that's a rather common scam.
Chitownlawyer, I totally agree with your comments that if you feel you got your money's worth it wasn't a scam, regardless of the girl's intent. Once I went into a fairly high mileage club that I had been to before, so I knew what to expect. It's one of those places where the laps take place in small private rooms that are watched by "hidden" cameras, you pay the house in advnace for the room and then negotiate your deal with the girl separately. Anyway, this one time as soon as I went in, a girl I had never seen before grabs me by the arm and says, "Quick, lets go in back, no one is watching the cameras right now and if we hurry we can do whatever we want." I immediately thought "scam" but then went with her anyway out of curiousity, plus the girl was hot and I liked her eager attitude. Turned out not to be a scam at all, she really did break the rules big time. But even if she hadn't, I wouldn't have considered it a scam because I entered into the agreement with eyes wide open and there wasn't much money at risk. It was worth it to me just to see what would happen.
I also think there are a lot of cases where the girl thinks she's scammed a customer but he knew exactly what was happening and didn't care because he was enjoying himself. I don't consider that to be a scam either. Or if it is, the guy is just as guilty of scamming as is the girl - he's leading her on just as much as she is him. To me that's just common strip club behavior, where neither party is being entirely honest with the other. I'm convinced that for a lot of guys that's a main attraction of SC's..
I also distinguish between little scams like a girl promising more than she delivers for a $20 dance, which is probably pretty common but really hurts only the girl because word quickly spreads, vs. the big scams such as where a girl pretends to be in love with a customer and talks him out of $thousands, which I think is pretty rare. To me those are the only scams that are worthy of the name, the little ones are sometimes annoying but generally insignificant.
Shadowcat, I wouldn't consider the first case a scam either. She did tell you up front the price and what to expect. She gave some dishonest reasons for the deal, but she was clearly telling you what to expect (i.e. no contact). I can see that it verges on a scam, but I think you had the information you needed to make the right choice.
Chitown, As another scam free customer I think we need to look to basic economics. The price of a comodity in its most basic form is information. It is a way to communicate the need of desire for that said comodity, and the degree of the need or desire. Now certainly a butcher will not buy steaks retail, and a cabinetmaker doesn't usually go to Ikea for his furniture, so there is a sense that to some extent the price is set by the buyer, i.e. what the individual is willing to pay. In the macro sense it is the demand side of the equation, but let us return to the individual transaction. Women have breasts, so won't often pay $20 to grope a pair. I however will (lacking said breasts). I would assume many people would consider me a fool for paying for the access to a pair of breasts for groping, and hence consider me scammed. I however am happy with the arangement. To arrive at the basic definition of a scam I think we have to consider a scam as some hidden part of the transaction, or information that were it in the customers posession would affect the price. That information lacking the customer pays a price they would not otherwise pay. Now to a certain degree the scam must be in the eye of the beholder, i.e. only you can decide if you were willing to pay what you did for what you got, but there must be a god's eye view aspect to it also, since the customer may not always be in posession of the information that would have affected the price. I say if you don't feel scammed, you probably didn't get scammed, unless it turns out that one of those strippers you got a dance from used to be a man.
This whole thread is fascinating to me, because, as I have said on another thread, I have never been scammed by a dancer. I am sure I look like an easy mark in a club. I like to think that I have never been scammed because I have a realistic idea of the tranaction, and what is expected from each side. I cannot, however, discount the possibility that I am such a naive fish that I have been scammed without even being aware of it.
Of course, that's an interesting existenitial question: If you have been party to a transaction in which someone else would say you were scammed, but you were personally quite happy with the deal, have you been scammed? Is a scam objective...or does it depend entirely on the mindset of the parties to the transaction?
I've got to not go to a forest so that I cannot hear some trees falling (or can I?).
shadowcat, The correlation might be that the ones that get enhanced have a more pro, or mercenary if you will attitude in general. After all, if you are willing to invest thousands and go under the knife you certainly probably see that as an investment you want to recoup. Just a thought.
Well, I know I'm being sarcastic (or ironic if anyone actually remembers the real definition of that word anymore). Typically the ambiguity lies with the reader who gets that or doesn't. Thanks for the tips, but I'm a little too old for playing head games even in real life, and I don't think it is particularly polite to do so whatever the circumstances. Since my local clubs don't do dances and I only get lapdances when traveling I prefer to stick with my method on those occasions.
AN: Here are a couple of tips for anyone who wants to try the "silent lap dance" experiment.
a) Don't be explicitly rude to the stripper, or if you must then try to do so in ambiguous manner that could be interpreted as a joke
b) This will work best if you are a regular who is known to like to talk to other strippers, and you try it on a stripper who you can see likes to talk to other customers. (Remember that strippers like any other type of girls are constantly gossiping: so the stripper you choose as the subject of your is going to wonder why you talk to other but not her.)
c) The hot the stripper is (or thinks she is) the better your results will be.
FONDL: You are right that it is bad business practices. But for alot of these girls control/power is more important than money, even though they, and Yoda, will try and tell you otherwise.
AN: You might think you are being sarcastic, but you ought to try "the silent thing" sometime. Some have even admitted, in what they thought was the confidence of their friends, how "hot" they find this.
I think what we're really talking about here isn't so much different views of strippers as it is different views of money. I've always found that people who place an inordinately high level of importance on money are people who either don't have much or who are extremely greedy. Let's face it, $100 is much more important to the guy who makes $10 an hour than it is to a guy who makes $100 an hour. I'd bet that the guys here who are most worried about scamming are at the low end of the economic ladder.
When my ATF got tired of dancing she went back to being a waitress. She always described waitressing as flirting for a living. Does that mean that when a waitress is nice to me she's scamming me too? Isn't she being extra nice to me so I'll give her a bigger tip, just like the stripper does? If so, I'd encourage her to keep it up. It works.
I think the reason most strippers don't scam is because it doesn't work, it's poor business practice. Most customers in strip clubs are regular strip club customers. They know who the scammers are and avoid them. The scams only work on newbies, and newbies aren't going to pay the bills.
davids, What, you actually lower yourself to talk to them?! I just give them a disdainful sneer. That's the best way to get a good dance out of them. Once they realize you know they are a lower form of life and will not sully yourself by treating them as humans, let alone your equal, they can concentrate on delivering a great dance. You know power turns them on.
Here's the worst scam. I go into a bar for a beer and there are naked women on a stage. Well I sit down at a table and a girl comes by and asks me what I want, I say a beer. She comes back with a beer and then wants me to pay for it! Not only that, but she actually expects me to give her money just for bringing the beer to me! I couldn't believe it. Next thing you know this naked girl up on the stage who I've been watching wants me to give HER money. The whole place was one big scam!
Here's another example that I just remembered. I was in a strip club and asked a girl how much a dance was, she said $20, I said let's go. As soon as we get into the LD room she asked for a tip, I said how much, she said the bigger the tip the better the dance. I said I don't tip in advance so she gave me an air dance, I paid the $20 and that was that. Later I met another girl at the bar, we talked for awhile then headed for the LD room. She never asked for a tip, gave good contact, and got lots of dances from me as a result and also got a nice tip. Meanwhile the first girl sat by herself for most of the evening. Her attempt to scam me backfired and cost her a lot of money. That's the only time I can remember that a girl tried to scam me in a club. If you're polite and mature it just doesn't happen very often.
Just to clarify, in the two examples above I actually had very pleasant experiences with both girls which were well worth the little money that changed hands. Especially the first one described, which lasted over a year, until she switched jobs and no longer had any free time. Then I ended it. I should also point out that in both cases the initiative to establish the arrangements was mine, not theirs. Hard to get scammed when you suggest an arrangement and the other person accepts, but I guess there are people who consider any commercial transaction to be a scam unless they get more than they pay for. Personally I don't see a whole lot of difference between taking a girl out to dinner and blowing a bundle, vs. having her come to your apartment and giving her the money you save, but I guess some guys do. Seems to me that all relationships are based on two people filling each other's needs. So her biggest need is money, so what?
davids, sounds more like he was paying for sex. I dunno about you, but to me that sounds more like an up and up transaction than a scam. It isn't much of a scam when you pay what you are willing and get what you expect. I'm starting to get the impression that anything a stripper says or does other than profess true genuine undying love for you and become your real life girlfriend for absolutely no money in or out of the club constitutes a scam to you.
Yoda, I gree that it's not a scam if what you receive in return for your money is worth it to you, regardless of the girl's mindset.
My definition of a scam is when you pay for something in advance and then the person doesn't deliver on their promise. The only time that's ever happened to me was many years ago I hired a plumbing contractor to replace an oil tank, he took a deposit and disappeared. That's a scam.
Two other times more recently I had ongoing relationships with attractive young women that ended because of money. In one case I was helping the girl financially and she was showing gratitude by giving of her time, companionship and intimacy. She started to cut back on what she was giving so I did too. No scam involved because the time we spent together was worth it to me. The second girl and I had been semi-friends for several years and had spent a lot of time together, then she was between jobs and asked if she could borrow some money, I said no but I'd give it to her (knowing full well I'd never get it back anyway.) She took the money (it wasn't very much) and disappeared. Again no scam - the time we spent together was worth it to me. In fact I would have given her much more if she had stuck around but she wasn't too bright. Incidently, before some of you get all hot and bothered, I should point out that neither of these girls was a stripper.
Parodyman--> : It would seem to me that neither davidsor myself are victims of scamming. I spend money on dancers with complete realization that all I am getting in return is time spent. Davids doesn't appear to be spending any money on dancers at all.
If a dancer lies about needing the money, I don't consider that a scam. I consider that a LINE that the dancer is using to make you feel sorry for her and get you to spend your money on her. You can easily say no to that kind of line. Why a girl is dancing really does not matter to me.
A scam to me is being overcharged or services paid for but not delivered.
Davids: I know this is complicated but try to comprehend this. A dancer's job is not just to take her clothes off. Her job is to get you to like her and spend money on her. Every girl uses a different approach but EVERY girl is acting to some degree. If you want to apply your personal ethics to it that’s fine. I choose to apply mine and I have no problem with what goes on in a SC. I simply avoid the girls who cross over my ethical line. I know the game when I walk into the club and I expect to get hustled. I draw the line at girls who try and rip me off by miss-counting dances or promising ITC services that they don't deliver. Other than that, I spend a little time getting to know a girl and if I like her and like her dances I spend money on her. It doesn't really concern me that it's an act. Dancers are not perfect people. Neither are you or I. None of us are. You are over-thinking the whole SC experience. It's simple, mindless carnal entertainment and maybe some decent conversation. That's all it's meant to be.
Honestly, with all of the hang-ups you seem to have regarding dancers, I don't see how you could possibly have any fun in a strip club anyway. Just stay home.
Is it also "scamming" if they (dancers) do not know how to manage their income and get in a jam? I think most of them are not capable of managing their money and have to get more to pay their bills.
I do not think that they are all scamming. I think there are some that use that line to scam people, but I think a majority are telling the truth about their situation. They are in the situation of cannot pay rent, phone bill, mediacal bills, etc because they earn and spend without any money managment.
It is a service industry. I notice that some in the industry cannot manage money well because they get paid every day that they work. Most workers get a check every two weeks and it forces you to at least have some planning with your money.
Definition of a SCAM: "A mystical power that dancers seem to have over some of you. It takes the money right out of your grubby little hands without your free will ever coming into play."
(Must be nice to just gloss over your own stupidity and take no share of the blame.) But just who here is guilty of this? Yoda? davids? Hard to tell...
"the fact that customers need to be on their guard and these scams are very easy to thrawt does not change the fact that the strippers are still trying to scam people nevertheless."
You sure don't have much sense when it comes to reasoning about ethics do you?
Davids: You call it scamming I call it the reality of making a living as a stripper. Nobody forces you to buy a dance from a stripper just because she tells you that she has bills to pay. You can just send her away. You’re holding dancers responsible for the naiveté of some SC customers.
a) BS hard luck stories
b) strippers trying to make customers beleive that the customers are their friends or there is some kind of special relationship between the stripper and customer or there are romantic possibilities.
Now the fact that customers need to be on their guard and these scams are very easy to thrawt does not change the fact that the strippers are still trying to scam people nevertheless. Many are inept about it, and in my case it would backfire on them, but someone must be falling victim else they won't be trying it as continuously as they do.
Scam: A stripper who takes (or argues for) your money after telling you she'll do something that she deliberately doesn't do (i.e. "I'll lapdance 3 songs for $20", you give her $20, then she only does 2 songs.) Whether she pretends to be aware of the scam or not is insignificant....it's still a scam.
vs.
Rip Off: a stripper who performs something that you had hoped/expected more of. (i.e. "I'll lapdance 3 songs for $20", you give her $20, she does 3 songs and the DJ cuts them all really short.) She did what was paid for, but its financial value sucked.
FONDL - I have met many strippers who are great girls and don't scam customers. I think rip-offs are way more common. I've only been scammed a couple of times in many years.
However, strippers are in clubs to make money in a hustle environment. Customers go to clubs to spend money, sometimes carelessly. With those odds, I find it hard to believe that customers scam strippers with the same frequency.
That's like suggesting we scam used car salesmen with the same frequency. RIGHT.
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Sara
Chitownlawyer, I totally agree with your comments that if you feel you got your money's worth it wasn't a scam, regardless of the girl's intent. Once I went into a fairly high mileage club that I had been to before, so I knew what to expect. It's one of those places where the laps take place in small private rooms that are watched by "hidden" cameras, you pay the house in advnace for the room and then negotiate your deal with the girl separately. Anyway, this one time as soon as I went in, a girl I had never seen before grabs me by the arm and says, "Quick, lets go in back, no one is watching the cameras right now and if we hurry we can do whatever we want." I immediately thought "scam" but then went with her anyway out of curiousity, plus the girl was hot and I liked her eager attitude. Turned out not to be a scam at all, she really did break the rules big time. But even if she hadn't, I wouldn't have considered it a scam because I entered into the agreement with eyes wide open and there wasn't much money at risk. It was worth it to me just to see what would happen.
I also think there are a lot of cases where the girl thinks she's scammed a customer but he knew exactly what was happening and didn't care because he was enjoying himself. I don't consider that to be a scam either. Or if it is, the guy is just as guilty of scamming as is the girl - he's leading her on just as much as she is him. To me that's just common strip club behavior, where neither party is being entirely honest with the other. I'm convinced that for a lot of guys that's a main attraction of SC's..
I also distinguish between little scams like a girl promising more than she delivers for a $20 dance, which is probably pretty common but really hurts only the girl because word quickly spreads, vs. the big scams such as where a girl pretends to be in love with a customer and talks him out of $thousands, which I think is pretty rare. To me those are the only scams that are worthy of the name, the little ones are sometimes annoying but generally insignificant.
Of course, that's an interesting existenitial question: If you have been party to a transaction in which someone else would say you were scammed, but you were personally quite happy with the deal, have you been scammed? Is a scam objective...or does it depend entirely on the mindset of the parties to the transaction?
I've got to not go to a forest so that I cannot hear some trees falling (or can I?).
a) Don't be explicitly rude to the stripper, or if you must then try to do so in ambiguous manner that could be interpreted as a joke
b) This will work best if you are a regular who is known to like to talk to other strippers, and you try it on a stripper who you can see likes to talk to other customers. (Remember that strippers like any other type of girls are constantly gossiping: so the stripper you choose as the subject of your is going to wonder why you talk to other but not her.)
c) The hot the stripper is (or thinks she is) the better your results will be.
Have fun!
Your friend,
David S.
When my ATF got tired of dancing she went back to being a waitress. She always described waitressing as flirting for a living. Does that mean that when a waitress is nice to me she's scamming me too? Isn't she being extra nice to me so I'll give her a bigger tip, just like the stripper does? If so, I'd encourage her to keep it up. It works.
I think the reason most strippers don't scam is because it doesn't work, it's poor business practice. Most customers in strip clubs are regular strip club customers. They know who the scammers are and avoid them. The scams only work on newbies, and newbies aren't going to pay the bills.
Davids, you criticize everyone's experience, but what about your's? Do you have any or is it just your imagination?
You have been scammed and you don't even know it.
No wonder you think scamming is so unlikely if you willing to justify all the abusive you've been handed like you do.
You really need to work on your self-esteem issues there, buddy.
My definition of a scam is when you pay for something in advance and then the person doesn't deliver on their promise. The only time that's ever happened to me was many years ago I hired a plumbing contractor to replace an oil tank, he took a deposit and disappeared. That's a scam.
Two other times more recently I had ongoing relationships with attractive young women that ended because of money. In one case I was helping the girl financially and she was showing gratitude by giving of her time, companionship and intimacy. She started to cut back on what she was giving so I did too. No scam involved because the time we spent together was worth it to me. The second girl and I had been semi-friends for several years and had spent a lot of time together, then she was between jobs and asked if she could borrow some money, I said no but I'd give it to her (knowing full well I'd never get it back anyway.) She took the money (it wasn't very much) and disappeared. Again no scam - the time we spent together was worth it to me. In fact I would have given her much more if she had stuck around but she wasn't too bright. Incidently, before some of you get all hot and bothered, I should point out that neither of these girls was a stripper.
Anyone else care to add some specific examples?
A scam to me is being overcharged or services paid for but not delivered.
Honestly, with all of the hang-ups you seem to have regarding dancers, I don't see how you could possibly have any fun in a strip club anyway. Just stay home.
I do not think that they are all scamming. I think there are some that use that line to scam people, but I think a majority are telling the truth about their situation. They are in the situation of cannot pay rent, phone bill, mediacal bills, etc because they earn and spend without any money managment.
It is a service industry. I notice that some in the industry cannot manage money well because they get paid every day that they work. Most workers get a check every two weeks and it forces you to at least have some planning with your money.
(Must be nice to just gloss over your own stupidity and take no share of the blame.) But just who here is guilty of this? Yoda? davids? Hard to tell...
"the fact that customers need to be on their guard and these scams are very easy to thrawt does not change the fact that the strippers are still trying to scam people nevertheless."
You sure don't have much sense when it comes to reasoning about ethics do you?
a) BS hard luck stories
b) strippers trying to make customers beleive that the customers are their friends or there is some kind of special relationship between the stripper and customer or there are romantic possibilities.
Now the fact that customers need to be on their guard and these scams are very easy to thrawt does not change the fact that the strippers are still trying to scam people nevertheless. Many are inept about it, and in my case it would backfire on them, but someone must be falling victim else they won't be trying it as continuously as they do.
Scam: A stripper who takes (or argues for) your money after telling you she'll do something that she deliberately doesn't do (i.e. "I'll lapdance 3 songs for $20", you give her $20, then she only does 2 songs.) Whether she pretends to be aware of the scam or not is insignificant....it's still a scam.
vs.
Rip Off: a stripper who performs something that you had hoped/expected more of. (i.e. "I'll lapdance 3 songs for $20", you give her $20, she does 3 songs and the DJ cuts them all really short.) She did what was paid for, but its financial value sucked.
FONDL - I have met many strippers who are great girls and don't scam customers. I think rip-offs are way more common. I've only been scammed a couple of times in many years.
However, strippers are in clubs to make money in a hustle environment. Customers go to clubs to spend money, sometimes carelessly. With those odds, I find it hard to believe that customers scam strippers with the same frequency.
That's like suggesting we scam used car salesmen with the same frequency. RIGHT.