World events, business, etc.

T, I think you'll find that human nature is pretty much the same everywhere, leaders will alsmot always do everything they can to profit themselves and think they're above the law. And that's true whether you're talking about politicians, businessmen, or leaders of any other type of organization. People who ascend to the top have huge egos and think they're special, if they didn't think that way they wouldn't have the overwhelming desire that it takes to get to the top. That's my theory of what's wrong with organizations - the qualities it takes to get to the top are very different from the qualities it takes to do a good job once you get there. And very few people posess both sets of qualities. The result is that almost everyone at a high level in any organization is incompetent and thinks they're infallible, which is a very dangerous combination.

Ther's not much the US can do to improve working wages in Mexico. NAFTA hurt a lot of the smaller businesses, much like WalMart's stores have done to mom and pop stores across the country. Contracts (or so I've heard) were awarded to large companies in Mexico, which helped create jobs but the competition also made income profits for smaller businesses unfeasible.

By turning a blind eye to illegal immigration and the accompanying crime and necessary increase in social assistance programs, San Diego becomes a less desirable place to live, in my opinion. I'm considering another country to move to if I tire of the decreased quality of life here as America becomes more of a third world country with criminal politicians becoming wealthy off of their unethical contracts and business deals with other greedy country leaders. New Zealand and Australia are potential destinations. -T

"Enacted laws are meant to be enforced, so enforce them." Except that an awful lot of laws are unenforcable. Take speed limits as an obvious example. Most laws depend on a high level of voluntary compliance, without which they are unenforcable.

FONDL; How do you figure host country citizenry is at fault for "immigration problem". I agree that many immigrants that enter legally, and enroll in citizenship classes do so with good intentions. As T-water points out, illegal immigration is the problem. Enacted laws are meant to be enforced, so enforce them. If illegal immigrants have to be sent back multiple times, send 'em back. If a neighbors dog comes over & poops on your yard, are you going to turn your "electric barrier" off just because it takes multiple zaps on a slow learning dog? Or, are you gonna sigh in resignation and let neighbors dog, and other dogs poop in your yard? T-water also raises interesting point on depressed wages. Its about supply & demand, but having minimum acceptable standards plays a role too. Consumers want lower prices, Businesses want increased profits(lower operating costs but 1 method of achieving profit goal). Do corporations "adequately" pass lower costs to consumers, or further pad key officer bonuses, which contributes to gross(er) wealth disparity. That could cover an entire post, so I'm off computer to devote more time to exercise&health.

There is also the problem that those in power in Mexico don't want to reform their economy to allow greater economic opportunity because they think that it would mean giving up their position and power. Mexico has used the US as a pressure release valve against revolution for years and we've winked and allowed it both to gain from the cheap labor and to keep our southern neighbor relatively stable.

T, I agree with you in principle, but I don't think what you're suggesting is possible. Our borders are so long and mostly located in such remote areas that I don't think it's economically feasible to secure them, the cost would be outrageous. So we're stuck with millions of illegals whether we want them or not. Kicking them out doesn't work, they just return. The question is how do we handle them? Should we put them in our already-overcrowded jails? Seems to me that the only workable solution in the long run is to help Mexico's economy to become strong enough that there are opportunities there for their own citizens. But our unions and farmers oppose any further lowering of trade barriers. It's a very complicated issue and there is no easy answer.

Actually, the immigration situation is something that should be considered carefully. In the last 20 years Mexico's population from has nearly doubled from approx 50 million to 100 million and will likely double again in the next 20 years.

Saving a few dollars by hiring illegals does nothing great for this country. It doesn't save money in the long run to short change workers, some benefits and pay which they eventually get anyways at tax payers expense (free medical, free schooling, and a lack of contribution to the tax base). Many of our service and technical jobs are already being out-sourced. If $10 an hour isn't enough to get American citizens working the pay should be increased to $12 or something reasonable, rather than outsourcing r jobs in our states to illegals. Immigration should be allowed, but in a controlled and legal way. Bush's short-sighted, greedy, "let's use these people for 3 to 6 years in his guest worker program" is silly. What are the future generations of American kids going to do for work?

The United States is a desirable destination and we should control, as much as possible, who enters and breeds in our country. Getting cheap labor now is more expensive in the longrun and encourages dishonesty and disrespect for our laws. It will become more violent and desperate in the future as Mexico mistreats it's citizens while the rich get wealthier. The guest worker program is a sham; people are not going to leave after 3 to 6 years. Decisions should be made now about registering people who live here and granting amnesty and/or deporting criminal illegals. Just one person's opinion.

Minnow, I agree with your point (2) and I think most immigrants who plan to stay here do come with that attitude. Unfortunately there are influential groups in this country who encourage them to keep their native language and customs and who lobby for us to change to accomodate them. Which guarantees them permanent second-class status. I think in most cases it's our own citizens who are casuing this problem, not the immigrants. And I think that's probably true in other countries as well.

p-man&h-fan: My point isn't that all immigrants should leave but that 1) Immigrants shouldn't come over to dis or trash host country 2) Immigrants should come prepared and willing to adapt to host country's customs, not the other way around. Swim with the fish, don't expect the fish to float you.

Once we get rid of immigrants who would be the be the next targeted group? Secularlists, gays, people under five feet? There will always be boogeymen that people hafta maintain an irrational fear of. Wake up

I'm not sure about this immigrants leaving will solve all of the country's ills theory.

You are an eloquent one, aren't you, minnow? (Probably most of those immigrants you complain about can write more clearly than you can.)

OK T-water, promised response to various subjects raised in original French fires post. I'll stick w. IMMIGRATION on this one. Yes, porous borders are a problem, but so is the way we deal with immigrants once inside country. 1st, a word to "Le Chef Imigre" ex BF,& current Palestinian neighbors: If they hate their host country so much, they should exercise a right they've had all along, namely, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE! GTF Outta Here!! If enough immigrants didn't come, or left, companies( or govts, ACMB) just might see fit to improve wages & conditions. Immigrants are a significant source of cheap labor, here & Europe. At the very least, having fewer malcontents ard. would alleviate $$drain on public resources. Not to demonize them, but present condition of the "idea" of immigrants not having to learn English language, and being catered to vs being fully assimilated US Citizen is unacceptable. This isn't entirely immigrants "fault" as there are indeed some economic forces & interests that want to keep 'em ignorant( eg, non fluent in English) and more or less "content" with their station in life. Ultimately, must ask if we want a common united country or a segmented, divided one. Last time I looked, General John Shalikashvili(Prussian immigrant, former JCS Chair), and Gov. Ahh-nuld(if you don't know this guys background, go back in the closet) spoke English during press conf. If you want to swim with the fish, you gotta learn how to swim.. I'm out.

Bumped duplicate thread, my intended reply lengthy&gotta run now/minnow

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