Letter to the strip clubs from a young black man

There seems to be a lot of threads going around about respect: respect to the dancers, respect to the customers, respect to ethnicities... After reading this, I felt bad for this guy. Hell, I'd rather have more guys like him in the club, then some of the dregs and assholes, I'd rather not drink near! But... we got to remember we're at a strip club, we're getting fucked up and paying girls to simulate sex! It's a pretty primitive atmosphere, and we're going to act like barbarians a little!

Hopefully, eventually, we can all put the gentleman back in gentleman's club. But I think it might take a while...

until then GL man!

Shame that you have to go through this crap. You must get tired of it. As a white dude who goes to a lot of black clubs (i.e. your inverse), I get sick of the snickers and somewhat strange looks when I walk through the door, but that's usually the worst that I get. Sounds like it's a lot tougher on your end.

rell. I am a 65 year old black man, a child of the segregated South, and I can understand many of the things you are talking about. However, I have found that sometimes whites, thinking they are well meaning, just try too hard and make clumsy mistakes. Do you know that black customers are advised of dance prices, but not whites? No customer should be sneered at like that. I just wonder if the question is asked of brothers only. We both know that some black dancers feel that white customers avoid them. They see a brother as instant money because we are supposed to understand and be sympathetic. Did the bartender send her over or did she make a beeline for you as soon as she saw you? If he sent her over, it could be an example of trying too hard. He knows her struggle and is only trying to help. Most whites do not know or care to know about the nasty little things they do to assign us to "our place" or "our kind." Most whites have no interaction with blacks as friends. This is also true for dancers and SC employees. A white dancer may put on some kind of "black act" as part her misguided effort to make you feel comfortable, relaxed and free with your money, not realizing that it is condescending.

I often wear a suit or a sport court in a SC, usually because I'm coming from somewhere else where that attire is expected. I once wore a navy blue hooded sweatshirt from Brooks Brothers, a gift from my son who worked there, and was told that I could not enter the club wearing it. It was all I had on above the waist so I asked the bouncer if I could enter topless. He let me in wearing the hoodie. At 60plus I knew I did not look like a gangsta, but all they saw was a black guy in a hoodie. No entry.

We can dress out of GQ, quote Shakespeare, earn a decent salary, provide for our families, attend church on a regular basis, serve in combat, contribute time and money to supporting and uplifting our communities and still we don't belong. You will still be seated in the SC in the booth next to the restroom.

And never underestimate how the backlash against Pres. Obama permeates many aspects of American life. Whites strongly deny that a backlash exists, but we know it, see it and feel it in everyday life. It's one thing to disagree with his policies. It's another thing to attack him personally at every turn.

Racism is still very real. We can never let our guard down.

to answer your question @superdude the dancers were always sent over by the bar tender.. this 1 club ive gone to 3 times and the bartenders have done it 3 times twice with the same girl.. and the black girls that work there are simply not my type i cant help that i went to high school where it was 84% white and understand that white people all of times do things and it comes off offensive but it was intended to be like that. ive somewhat delt with racism in the business world but in strip clubs i wasnt expecting it guessing green was the only color that mattered

i'm black too, rell. but i haven't experienced any of this, SO FAR. with that said, i've only been going to clubs since late 2009- early 2010. and i've only been to about 5 or 6 different clubs thus far, so who knows what will happen once more time has passed

once at my typos in my previous comments.. i ment to say alot of times do things that come off offensive but wasnt intended to be that way. i need to stop typing in the dark or proof read

rell. At different times the honest guys on this board have asked questions about racism in SCs and some have expressed their disappointment. Dancers have complained to. Issues: (1) is there a quota on the number of black dancers in a club; (2) why are there "black clubs;"(3) white dancers ignoring black customers; (4) dress codes enforced on black customers only;(5) steering black customers to the least desirable seats; (6) pat downs for weapons; (7) telling a group of black guys larger than three that the club has no space to seat them; (8) asking black customers, but not whites, for I.D. with the credit card. We could go on.

GoVikings -- Glad to see you haven't experienced any of this, but now that you are a little more aware of it, you may notice some things you haven't seen before. SuperDude -- As the sage veteran among us you have probably seen more of this than any of us and grew up in a time where racism was more prevalent. You speak wisely. I have experienced #3 many times, and #8, not in the strip club (I only use cash), but in a department store.

@rell. Let me add to your viewpoint.

1. If you dress poor, then the staff will think you are poor. Dress nice and I would bet that you will be treated differently at the door. If they don't, don't go back. There are a lot of clubs that would welcome a sharp dressed man.

When I find myself in a mostly black club, the token white girls always come over to sit with me because I am not black. No big deal. They are trying to make money like everybody else. If you don't like a particular dancer, just tell her no thanks.

Ok black dancer, I picked you because I like your body, stop putting your ass in my face for 90% of the dance. I want to see the rest of your beautiful body.

When I go to a Latina club, the token white girls come and sit with me because I am not brown enough. Ok, what's the problem. I came here to see some spanish girls. "Quiero una bailarina latina hermosa, no usted".

Latin girl, really it's ok to speak english or spanish, I think you are beautiful in any language. I know I am dressed in a dress shirt and tie, let me dress down, because the other guys are in their company work shirts and I want to try and fit in.

What? The latino manager didn't greet me. He probably is racist towards people he thinks are white. Or maybe he didn't have time to greet everyone and he left me out. Again, no big deal. I am here to think about all these beautiful dancers.

My advice is to go with the flow. Dress for the club, have a positive attitude. You will be surprised how many people can pick up your good or bad attitude Don't let discrimination real or perceived dictate your response. We have all been there at one time or another. Happy clubbing.

First of all, I am not black. Second of all, we are a couple. We have had clubs tell us pricing at the door as well. In fact, if it is our first time at a club, we prefer it. And we usually have been shown around. Clubs that don't do this are second rate in our book. Why must you assume that someone giving pricing is trying to keep you out? As always, the eye of the beholder is the lens through which actions are seen. Maybe it was not about race at all. In our experience, the ones making race an issue tend to be the African Amricans themselves.

I am sure this will generate name-calling and some negative comments. So, before you start, of my five best friends, three are White, one is African American and one is Latina.No I am not racially prejudiced. I worked in a warehouse as a member of the management team. I can tell you from firsthand experience that the caucasians were the least racially biased group in the warehouse.

And if any dancers working in these clubs shake their booty to the black guys, please show me your tits instead. Most dancers I see are not 10's and that is about the only time when I want to see a dancer shake her booty. Even then, I paid to see tits and that is what I want to see. I am not black but a number of dancers still shake their booty at me instead of showing their tits. I won't tip more than once or twice if I keep seeing that and I remember who did it. Save it for the black guy tipping extra to see that. I always like to see tits.

Pimps that operate out of strip clubs will often tell their girls not to talk or give dances to black guys.

In the club, it might not be so much as racism exists as it is the stereotypical perceptions of who has money. Some think Asians are loaded, or the old white guy, or the rapper looking dude, etc.

I will probably get slammed for this post. How does an old white guy know if he is a racist or not? I know that I am a jolly red neck, but racist? - I don't have a clue. I grew up in white, rural Canada. The first people of colour that I ever encountered were Canadian aboriginals. During my career, I have been all over the world employing many people of colour - Arabs, south Asians, Philipinos, Chinese; but never have I had a single black employee. For some reason, I have never encountered a single black person in my industry (oil and gas exploration and production). The mere fact of uttering that last statement probably paints me as a racist.

I have visited one black SC during my time in this hobby - Arnies Idle Hour in Harvey, Illinois (south Chicago) last summer. That was the first time in my life that I had ever even had a conversation with a black woman, let alone all the other stuff we did in the VIP! That sounds unbelievable for a 62 year old white guy to admit but it is the truth. One of the dancers I met in Arnies was a very interesting woman. No education but the pure wisdom and happiness of a person completely at ease with herself and full of confidence in dealing with her part of the world.

This topic has caused me much thought. Thanks for posting your thoughts and experiences, rell; and all the replies from SuperDude, GoVikings. I would like to hang with you guys some time.

rh48hr- what you said is true. because honestly, before i read this thread... this had NEVER crossed my mind. i'm black, so i'm very aware of racism, but i NEVER thought people had to deal with this at a strip club, of ALL places. so now that i know this, i might be a bit more aware of things

rell- we are pretty much in the same age range too. i'm only a few years younger than you. i don't know if you're the type to speak up about things, but if i were you, i would. especially since it seems like this has happened to you multiple times.

well hold up everybody ..no where in my post did i say that these people are racist.. because i dont know that for a fact but you can tell theres a preconcived notion about a black man.. maybe its because of some previous customers @ pablo is isnt what you say alot of times is how you say it im still a young man but i can tell when the guy told me about the prices he was thinking they might be too steep.. at 1st it didnt bother me because all the clubs within a 20 mile radius has cheaper lap dance prices than this club but stuff started to add up in this club that said other wise and i dont dress poorly..i was just noticing that the was a older white guy at the club with a white tee and some torn up jeans and it was just fine im usualy at least always presentable when i go out even when i am dressed down

@govikings.. you have been lucky.. i started going to strip clubs when i was 17 and whats funny back when i was 17 i dressed like i was in a rap video i used to wear really baggin cloths and this chain it took 8 checks from working at the grocery store to save up and buy lol and i never gotten treated with any kind of racism.. i do however understand im a big guy.. im a advid power lifter... im 5'8 205 and about 15% body fat i can understand how i can look a little scary but then know im not the only guy thats walked into there club with big muscles

@go vikings.. i havent spoken up about it just yet what started this whole topic is that my high school friend is moving back into the area after proudly serving in the marines(yes hes white as most of my friends are) he wanted to hit the strip club with me next weekend and we were talking about places to go and the one of the clubs came up .. and i was explaining how i got treated the 3 times i went there and he was shocked and said hes never dealt with any of these problems going to those clubs .. so it got me thinking

Rell. You say that you were not talking about racism. Then what is the point of your posts? Nobody in this site cares what color you are. We like dancers of all kinds, we judge them by their bodies and attitudes, not by their color.

Our forum is to talk about clubs and dancers, the mileage we experience, how much sex we get or don't get, and other subjects of interest to the entire site. This is not a political soapbox.

If you have been treated poorly, I'm sorry. But you need to move on. We have all experienced the same thing. If a club treats you with disrespect, then don't go back. It's called the free enterprise system and it is what made this country the greatest on earth.

If you don't like the club do what a rational person should, walk with your dollars to a club that treats you the way you expect to be treated. Bullshit on all this "respect" crap, I am tired of hearing about it. People earn respect and no one is entitled to it except one's parents and to some degree the police, and any military person who serves our country. Quit bitching and moaning and be a man.

my point pablo of making this post is to point out simple things that clubs do.. and preconceptions .. this isnt to bitch or moan @polarman please dont get it confused this is to make things better for everybody exactly what this site is intended for.. no different from daisey made her atricle about stuff she doesnt want to hear from customers its all to enlighten .. im sure im not the only one that feels this way and looks as though that is the case, dont try to question my manhood because you didnt read with full understanding.this is a place of business and everybody should be treated with respect untill proven elsewise.. and thats my point.. dont prejudge.. no different when a bad review is written.. is that person bitching and moaning?? no he is simply giving his opinion of what he thought good or bad and im giving my opinion of what i see in SOME.. notice i didnt say ALL of these clubs from my perspective

hi farmerart,

This doesn't pertain to this topic per se, but your comment, "For some reason, I have never encountered a single black person in my industry (oil and gas exploration and production), warranted a response.

I majored in Geology at a large Big Ten University that, at the time, had one of the largest Geology departments in the US. In my 4 years at the school, I too NEVER encountered a black person who chose this as a major. I have no idea why not. There were black chemistry, physics, and pre-med majors, but not a single African American geo major out of the hundreds of undergraduate and graduate students I met during that time. Unfortunately, I graduated in the early 1980's when the industry was laying off geologists - there were stories of geologists in Houston pawning their Rolexes to pay their mortgages, so my career path led me to other areas. Sounds like things haven't changed much in 30 years.

I like this thread! It's made me question what sin is worse, greed, lust, or envy... racism. White dude's envious of black dudes because the notion they're more sexually attractive, and black dudes envious of white dudes because they controlled everything for five hundred freaking years! But things are slowly changing... it's just going to take longer in a strip club. Even if we all dress in suits, it's still catering to our most primitive caveman need - sex. I mean I have high romantic hopes of it being something more sophisticated than that, but it's not. Chicks want money, dudes want sex. Occasionally, I find a dancer who loves to dance and please men, and she'll be my ATMF*, but for the most part it's just a job. A job about sex.

also I'm a paper white white guy, mildly racist southerner, prefers brown women because they don't sunburn, and lives in a 90% black neighborhood because the cookouts are better.

A question for the older gentlemen, what was it like to be a black patron in a SC back in the 70s? It had to be worse right?? If it was better, good grief!! I haven't talk to any of my neighbors about my new hobby. Maybe I should, but if I brought a group of black dudes into a club and they were treated poorly, I'd regret it.

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hi rell,

As a white guy, I'll probably never experience what you have to go thru on a daily basis and feel for you. And I don't mean to diminish what you're saying, but we've all been ignored at clubs for one reason or another. I'm fat and over the years I've been passed by more times than I can count. It is painful when every guy in the club gets asked for a dance and you get ignored. Not every dancer does this, but some do. Now that I'm older, it's actually better. For some reason, the dancers think the old, fat guys are rich. LOL.

It's all about the perception of making MONEY. I was in the Flight Club, a real high end club near Detroit, one slow Saturday afternoon. Only a few guys in the club. I was totally ignored yet a black guy had a table full of the hottest dancers in the club at his side. He was wearing a suit and tie, drinking brandy, and smoking a cigar. The girls flocked to him, yet he never bought a single dance. You have to LOOK like you have bank,

And I'm not saying we're not a racist country. But it's gotta be getting better. This generation of dancers grew up watching rap videos and listening to R&B. They embrace the hip-hop culture. I go to mostly white clubs, but late at night, when groups of young black guys come into the club, the girls flock to them. They don't spend money, but the girls are all over them. Maybe you've just picked a bad club.

I'm sure blacks still encounter racism and it can't be pleasant. Things have improved, however, and I think racism will be gone in a generation or two. When I was young, many whites were openly racist. Today, I never hear racist comments from other white people.

One of the great things about a forum is that no one can tell what you look like, but everyone can tell if you're an asshole.

rell, the fact that you are pretty young as far as clubbers go may be part of the issue too. Some strippers perceive guys under 35 or so to not have as much money as older guys. There are girls that don't want have anything to do with young guys and pretend they aren't even there.

People have all kinds of predjudices, and race is just one on a long list. I have seen guys without a limb (probably veterans from Iraq/Afghanistan) be ignored in clubs just because they were "different". I have known guys to be treated like less of man by women for just being below average height or dwarfs. Some strippers don't want to deal with obese guys. The list goes on and on.

I knew this threat would could get some people charged up! I'm going to break it down for some of you who may not understand.

I'm not old, but I'm not as young as rell or GoVikings. I have experienced racism overtly and covertly. From being called n----r and having someone say they wanted to burn a cross in my front yard. If you haven't walked in our shoes, you have no idea what our experiences have been. I have been in a department store when the lady in front of me used her credit card. She was not asked to show ID for her purchase. I was asked to show ID and I was next in line. I said nothing as I was young and didn't want to cause a scene. Now I would ask for a manager and point out the discrepancy.

What rell or SuperDude or GoVikings are talking about has to do with experiences they have dealt with based on what they have dealt with in the past. I don't think this has to do with racism as much as it has to do with ignorance of another's culture. The fact you have a friend(s) who are black or minority doesn't mean you understand what they have gone through.

My last girlfriend (who was white) couldn't understand my inherent distrust of the police (I have never been arrested, but have been harassed when I wasn't doing anything). She couldn't grasp that what I have seen and experienced, and what my parents, grandparents, relatives and friends had been through would not have an affect on my perceptions. She was ignorant of black history. If something happens once, you can blow it off as coincidence, when it becomes a pattern you give it credence.

Have you ever been the only person of your race working at a particular business? I 've had this at a few different jobs. At one job, the manager was racist and sexist, called me afro sheen and ogled all of the attractive female workers. Again, I was young and stupid, I just put up with it because I needed the job. Now, I would sue the business for harassment.

I am not trying to put down anyone here. I would love to monger with all of you if you come to Phoenix or if I come to your neck of the woods. I love all races and show respect to all races until they prove otherwise. Believe me, there are plenty of black people I want nothing to do with because of how they act. And I have received LD from every race I have encountered out there. There are some within all races who live up to the stereotypes and some who just don't know or understand. Don't judge how someone perceives something until you know what they have been through. I did not give my examples to garner sympathy, but to make a point. I didn't want to go on a rant, I am here to relay my SC experiences and gather intel for future SC jaunts. But, I felt it was necessary because I think anytime you have an opportunity to increase knowledge to bridge the gap in understanding between people of different races and cultures, I would be remiss if I did not do so.

Happy mongering to all!

There is still racism. At this point the dumbest most desperate 20% of white people are racist at most, at least in the 40 and under demographic. Next generation it will be 10%. Trust me, if you are white and racist, we know the truth. You're a failure at life, frustrated and want to blame your inadequacies on things beyond your control when they are not and this is all you've got.

But 80% of us are not racist. So don't attribute every perceived slight to racism. People are rude and inconsiderate to one another all the time. People are often randomly inconsistent for no good reason. Get too focused on race and you sabotage yourself.

BTW not even every clearly race motivated act is racism. A dancer trying to act like she thinks you want her to act is not racist, just confused. Preference isn't racism either - it's natural for people to want to be with people that they think are like them (race, culture, age, sex, interests) and that's not racism either and it even makes sense on a lot of levels even if taking it too far can lead to a very narrow life experience. Even the guy who chooses to tell you dance prices because you're black isn't really a "racist" if there are a lot of lower income black communities in the area.

To me racism is when you try to attribute superiority or inferiority on the basis of race (not the statistically valid guess that you might be low income in some areas, but rather the stubborn belief that if you are successful you must have gotten lucky or benefited from affirmative action) or when you take actions to harm someone on the basis of race like denying them services or employment. Racism is when you think of yourself as being on "team white" and want your team to win.

...or as Chris Rock so perfectly put it (paraphrased a little) "it's not right to say black people are making progress in America. It's condescending. What? My grandfather wasn't someone a white person should be willing to share a restaurant with but now we're better? No. That's Crazy. Better to say white people have gotten less crazy" :-)

Here's the problem that nobody is willing to admit. Most stereotypes have a grain of truth. A large portion of whites ARE racist towards blacks and other groups. Just like a large portion of blacks are racist against whites. And if you look at the crime data, for example, white males have about a 5% chance of being incarcerated over their lifetimes, compared to 25-30% for black males. The facts are that young black males are far more likely to be criminals than white males. Check the stats (search "crimes statistics", and you'll find lots of data). So if whites (including white cops) are leery of young black males, there's a reason. You may not like the reason, but there's a grain of data behind it. Unfortunately, many white folks take that WAY too far, and assume bad things about all black folks. That's just stupid.

Owners take heed - you are looking at roughly 10% of the population with a rising income gradient. Get someone who is well versed in black idioms and train your support staff and dancers. This will pay off well and result in a new tier of happy customers. Great letter.

I think the main problem is that many people get their opinion of the different races from what they see on TV. we are constantly bombarded with the tattooed, black thug athletes (ray lewis, michael vick, just about any NBA player) and their overly aggressive, in your face attitude. also, just watch the local news here in ATL and the first 10 stories are about which black shot, killed, robbed or assaulted which other black.

its really less about racism and more about treateing people right.. like said earlier by superdude i dont think they intentionaly do these things to be racist but its the fact that they dont understand.. thats why i made this.. yes i think everybody gets treated unfairly in some kind of way. it doesnt make it right .. my days working as a car salesman for bmw i learned many things but the #1 thing was.. dont discriminate because you never know. i remember some of my co workers to run and trip each other over the guy that comes to the dealership in a fancy suit and already drives a bmw,audi or benz.. and alot of times they wouldnt get the sale or if they do they have haggled them down so hard that there commission is little to nothing, but see some person that doesnt look like they can even afford a honda walks in and that ends up being the person who buys the car with everything in it and doesnt haggle and credit is A1 same thing should be in the strip club business you just never know. i understand all the preconcieved notions and stereotypes but to owners and dancers everybody is a good customer and a potential residual untill proven elsewise i see this has ruffled a few feathers even spotted some ignorance with some people as well

Sup guys I'm a white guy that is tatted up and thuged out I love big boobs but damn a big ass is nice!! : ))

It is very good to be an almost middle aged white guy normally dressed in a Brooks Brothers suit. ;)

Seriously though, it sucks that you have to go through that. I have to admit that I know many strippers who will not approach black guys, some just out of apprehension and others because they had bad experience with younger hip hop types. In NYC we get a fair amount of wannabe gangsters in some clubs, which in all fairness doesn't help the perception issues. However, a guy in your situation should be an ideal target for almost any girl and it really isn't fair.

Now on the flip side, I will admit to being one of those guys who just does not like black girls. I pass them over almost every time - I'm just not attracted to most of them. Now I also know that a fair number of other white guys feel the same way. Is this racism? I don't know, but preferences are what they are. So I am not surprised that black girls naturally flock to black customers as they are generally better targets for them than white customers.

Anyway, thanks for the article and good luck as you work it out.

nice article rell

Rell--I think we have all learned something from the conversation sparked by your letter. We are all groping for answers, but in clubs prefer groping dancers. That's cool. People have different tastes and preferences, but should treat everyone with respect, even if they "are not my kind." I know I still have a tough time figuring out if the white person dissing me is just rude, bad mannered, clumsy or actually racist. (June 3, 2011, 3:30pm, Boston cabbie refused to take me from downtown to Roxbury. He was from India or Pakistan. Said the 10 minute drive would take too long as he only had 30 minutes left on his shift. I was wearing a business suit and escorting my ex-wife after our son's college graduation.) I live in a Detroit loft apartment building where the young black tenants blast music day and night, throw trash in the hallways and break in cars. I don't blame anyone, white or black, who wants to distance themselves from low-lifes of any background.

Despite these problems, we struggle, we learn, we keep trying. The continued growth of the U.S. depends, in part, on solving this problem. I continue to grope in and out of clubs.

I agree with 10 inches on the media playing a big part in the way we're looked at by others. And it doesn't help when people are close minded about others being any other way than how they're shown in media. You just hope in this day and age that people wouldn't be that way, and judge you before getting the chance to at least feel you out a little. Sometimes we're just not given a chance to be anything different in the minds of others. That goes for everyone regardless of race.

As far as racism goes, it's not just a one way street. And I can't say if it's race, my youth(22), or my comfortable relaxed attire, but I've been there plenty of times where girls walk right by me to the next guy, and ignore me like I have a contagious disease. I don't sweat it though, and the girls who do give me attention are usually pleasantly surprised by the tips I happily give them.

Oh yeah, fuck the managers, the pesky waiters, and the intrusive bird dogs. I avoid clubs when and where they're a problem.

Good article tell. I had a experience one time and it got me pretty heated. I was in one of the nude clubs in Phoenix with two of my college buddies. One of the my college friend wanted to have a dance with pretty attractive girl. He ask for a dance and she told him in a stone coldfacw and she said no. My friend said why and the dancer said I don't feel comfortable, thn she walked off. We both looked at each other and he said don't worry about but I did do something. I complained to the manger about it, the manager pretty much said sorry and gave free passes with free drinks. I never went back it still makes me a bit mad so there's my story

My point was, if you don't like the club don't go, find one you do like and go to it. The peolple that run the clubs only care about your money. Hell, most of them treat their most valuable assests, the dancers, like dirt.

Great thread, excellent points rell and Superdude and others. I am a white guy, proudly goofy and clumsy. I don't like the thug-attitudes by anybody, especially the wannabe suburban white hip-hoppers. I have always liked black music from James Brown to George Clinton to Sly Stone to Stevie Wonder. But I never tried to pass myself off as black, recognizing how ridiculous that would seem. This country has developed an outsized victim reaction, where a person of color raises the question of differential treatment and the white establishment goes completely berserk, shrieking about how they have been unfairly accused. How in the hell can Bill O'Reilly claim to the victim of anything? Or Rush Limbaugh? Did somebody steal one of his cigars? For these completely over-privileged clowns to complain about anything is mind-boggling. Yes, racism still exists, and these posters are telling the truth.

It is true that they can take their dollars and walk, but if most clubs offer the same prospects, the subtle resistance, the back-handed compliments, the condescension, the suspicious ways, then taking your money to another similar club doesn't really remedy the situation.

I need to say, that all things being equal, the black sisters have been better dancers for me over the years. And you can crank up theories and whatnot, but it is simply that they were better conversationalists, were a bit naughtier, were saucier, were more entertaining, and were better dancers and had better grace and body control. Were there some excellent white dancers? Yes. Were there some bad black dancers, some heifers, some horrible-attitude AA girls? Yes. But all-in-all, the black girls have been more fun and more memorable. The few times when I have walked out of a club going "whew, that was so very hot" were caused by some sisters. I have heard the expression "Once black, you never go back", but it is not just an empty boast. It is an acknowledgment that there is a rich and fertile backyard awaiting to be explored. To ignore it for whatever reason--fear, ignorance, taste, bias--is to not live life to the fullest. (Now, I don't think black males are too keen on me doing it, but seriously, no offense intended at all.)

I'm also black and have experienced some of the things in the original post. I tend to frequent the same places over and over so my face and hopefully the memory of me spending money and tipping well stays with the staff. When I go to new places I notice that I will can sit for an hour or more with no dancers stopping at my table, if they do they are usually black, hispanic, or the "thick" white girl. I frequent many clubs in IL/St Louis area which is fairly diverse so these issues seem to become less existent most of the time.

I'm going to be honest here, in the club I operate racism is a problem and it drives me nuts. It's a constant battle to get employees to treat evryone the same. The dancers seem to each have their preferences. There are a few that focus mainly on Black or Native American customers, most seem to flock to white men. Very few seem interested in Asians. The security seems to focus harder on the Black customers, even though IMO they aren't any more likely than other race to cause trouble. We have a strict dress code (no saggy pants, no backwards hats etc) but that is enforeced equally on all races. I can't really replace my staff because in this city I don't think I'd find replacements that were any better.

@ polarman you really think that this is just 1 place am talking about?? hell if it was just one place i would just say this PLACE is racist but ive been to strip clubs in about imma say 4 states and dc (since dc isnt a state) and will say not all exstablishments that cater to mostly white people do this .. far too many do and its something that i wanted to shed light on.. and every veteren sc goer will tell you its rare that you are 1 and done with a paticular sc unless the experience was just terible beyond belief.. its usly 2-3 times before i swear the place off until theres new management

looneylarry you got a pointthere.. theres a couple really good black strip clubs 5 miles from my condo with cheap laps nothing wrong with that but i really prefer mixed clubs and usualy the mainstay of clubs

I'm a black guy and have visited my local clubs with a few other members on this board, all of them white guys that are older than me. Luckily the management at the club I visit has not shown any racism towards customers as far as I've noticed. The floor guys and door guys have always been good and friendly. But I have experienced some of the things rell mentioned in his post, especially when visiting a new club. Not all the time, just random times. It's not as easy as @pabloantonio or @polarman think it is. @Polarman suggests taking your $ elsewhere. I agree if a club disrespects you as a person, regardless of who you are. But what if you live in a one club city like a few of the clubs I've visited were. You have to stop going to clubs because the only one in town mistreats you for being different? If you have to, you have to, but that shouldn't happen. And lets be serious @pablo, racism still occurs in all kinds of venues. To suggest that simply wearing a tux and flashing lots of money will get you fully respected by any club in America is ludicrous. Bottom line is some people have prejudices and racist thoughts, and that doesn't mean white people towards black people. Black people can be racist to other blacks, whites on asians, mexicans on blacks and everything in between. I know of some black girls at the clubs that told me they don't dance for black customers, and some white girls that prefer to hang with the black customers when they're there.

We're all on this forum as friends so if someone on here says he experiences something in some of his trips to the clubs, don't diminish his experience by saying it's in his head or is perceived. Just know that there is the possibility that those things happen and unless we're there we shouldn't judge a situation that we're reading about from a fellow hobbyist who is also on this forum to help and talk about what's in the clubs.

I am one of the older white guys that uscue13 mentioned. I am glad he didn't say MUCH older. LOl. a few months ago a black guy wrote a blistering review on the club we are refering to. Claiming that he was denied entry solely because he was black and even raved about a competing black club. I sent uscue13 a PM and asked him what his take on the review was. I think we both agreed that the reviewer was not telling the whole truth.

Keep the TUSCL brotherhood alive through comunications.

I agree with IrishLad. My father remembers overt racism, but he still had black acquaintances. I don’t remember racist practices at all and I had many opportunities to interact with blacks. My children have black friends, and my grandkids will likely have black friends as well.

I expect that by the time my great-grandkids are adults the only remnants of racism will be in a very few small segments of society.

My SC hobby hasn’t really changed my opinion regarding racism or my views toward blacks, but I must say I have had several OTC relationships with black women, and I am amazed at both the sensitivity and frankness they can exhibit. I understand why a white guy like myself might want to marry a black woman…and it’s not really about sex.

I don't doubt that the author of this post feels uncomfortable in some clubs, as sad as it is, I doubt our country will ever get over the issue of race, but as a white guy, I must admit that the one time I went to Cheetahs in detroit I wasn't exactly comfortable, that was a pretty much black dominated club and I really did not feel welcomed, same thing with Bada Bing in Lincoln Park, that club seems to be Black and Arabic dominated, and I just felt uneasy and that others were trying to intimidate me while there.

Thats what I like about big cities like Vegas and San Francisco, you don't have to worry about what race you are and what club you go into, they are full of all races.

Why can't we all just get along and enjoy the site of hot naked women :)

Is that you Rodney King? LOL!

I have enjoyed reading this thread, as I think it generated alot of interest. I also like the way Rell, GoVikings and others have handled some ignorant comments with alot of class.
I, too, am a mid 40s black man. I have seen and heard alot. I think 95% or more of the people are not "racist" as this means they look down on other races just because they are different... the "I love myself, hate any others" attitude. Only a very small % of any color is really racist, I fully believe that. I think what Rell and others are refering to is simply "ignorance" or the "I don't really know any better, but I'm gonna act this way based on what i see. I'm not gonna take time to understand this other person either cuz I dont care enough" attitude. Racism is horrible. Ignorance is kinda understandable, but it's still wrong... and f'n annoying! *The point: I've seen exactly what Rell is talking about and what he's been through. It might not sound like a big deal, but it can ruin a day or even a week. It sticks in your mind when someone does some ignorant s--t. It is important! And cudos to you guys for doing the most important thing, IMPROVING AWARENESS.

I am giving my opinion from over thiry years of going to hundreds of clubs in over 30 states, its you option to agree or not with me, but it does no good to complain about this. If you want to solve the problem quickly, go manage or start your own club. And yes I am sick of hearing so many people saying they were disrespected. Get over it, many of the people that claim that are losers who have done nothing to earn respect. My son works in the restaurant business and he says servers do not like certain groups of people because of how cheap they are with tips. That comes from employees who make $2.35/hr and survive on tips. Maybe you are being treated the way you are base on behavior of peers in the past. That is human nature than time and expeience can change. I just read the other day that the average IQ in this country is now 98, one of the lowest of any country in the world. The message is that there are millions of people barely above the retarded line in intelligence in this country and change is slow.

tigerfan brought up something that I have seen too. Last year, one of my favorite clubs instituted a strict dress code. No hats, no hoodies, no saggy bags. They also mandated to the dancers and the DJs to mostly eliminate R&B and rap. To me, this seemed like an attempt to limit the "undesirable" clientele. I kind of felt like this was racist. But white kids wear those kid of clothes too and it was the white girls who were dancing to the R&B - so the club can claim doing this was not at all racially motivated. As others have said, there is overt racism and covert racism, and it seems this legal, "covert" racism is even worse.

Your comment about dress and the BMW dealership reminds me a famous story. You are probably too young for this, but many years ago when Eric Dickerson was playing for the Indianapolis Colts, he came into the city's #1 BMW dealership dressed in sweats. The salesman, not recognizing him as a millionaire, star football player looked how he was dressed and basically told him he couldn't afford these cars and asked him to leave. Huge mistake.

the second part was addressed to rell, the Original Poster

polerman.. this is the lat time im going to respond to you because your ignorance far out wieghts your intel. do you hear yourself??.. if i dont like it manage my own club?.. i mean really? i want to enjoy hot dancers that manage them thats a complete conridiction to what people go to strip clubs or any other kind of business. nobody owns a resturant because they love to eat. im not complaining at your your missing the point.. im just pointing out some things that maybe some of these clubs dont realize.... you dont make change by not saying something and moving on.. whoever told you that was misguided.. you make schange by saying something.. in big companys such as verixon they pay people to read reviews on thier products look for the same complaints from customers and concerns..why do think business came up witht he customer concerns box?? according to you we should just move on stop bitching so there is no need to write anything

even worse your saying i should be treated some way because people people of my race and age group have done something??.. really?? thats even more redicolous.. now person to person i expect that but not from a business yes im young and im black.. and theres alot of young black men that cause alot of problems but does that meanthat i should accept being precieved that way? no if a old white man walks into a building should he accept that theres alot of old white men that sexualy harrass women on the job and when they go to the strip club is going to give women all thier money because of some other people?? i mean come on the more and more you say stuff polarman the more crazier it gets . i understand its your opinion. and this is mine.. im not complaining and im not bitching and if you didnt get that than gods speed to you

@ motorhead.. no i dont remember thats story about eric dickerson i was probly a child when that happend.. but im not suprised at all.. i just got a funny message from somebody telling me to dress a certain way , treat people with respect and you wont have these problems. if theres a dress code for the strip club and im within the dress code i shouldnt get anymore flak about it. its funny because baggy cloths arent even in style for the youth alot of these kids are wearing skinny jeans..they still sag thier pants but thats somehting i never did. ive always been a athlete football,baseball,basketball, saggin your pants just gets in the way of all of that so i always wore pants that will fit or at least had a belt on

rell, the thing about dress a certain way and act a certain way and you'll always be treated equal is funny to me as well. Sometimes people refuse to believe that things happen in the world that they don't see. My question to that very same reaction a few people on here talked about: if a woman is sexually assaulted, do you automatically say well it is because she dressed a certain way and had it coming? You mean to tell me all women that get sexually assaulted are victims because they dress provocatively or in a way that makes a man act crazy? No. I've seen news reports of elderly women getting assaulted, and I doubt their dress has anything to do with it. Sometimes - not every time - but sometimes the victim has done nothing wrong except be in a place where misfortune occurred. Now sexual assault and discrimination aren't equal in my book, but the lesson is the same. Every situation isn't as easy as "be what they want you to be and you won't have a problem". You can do everything right and still get mistreated

In my club the no saggy pants, no hats, no sports jersey thing isn't meant to keep out any race, it's meant to keep out gang banger wanna be's. We just try to make it uncomfortable for them. The second someone's pants hangs low I have a six foot five security guy correcting the problem. It makes those people feel like they're not wanted. We don't serve liquor, and we don't let the gang bangers in. That helps keep the place classy, and most of my customers come here because of that. If they want to get shot, they go to the saggy pants clubs, lol.

the funny thing about pants saggin which alot of these cats dont realize... its a jail term.. means your gay lol.. the guys that would sag thier pants means they have gotten done up the ass and was open for umm 'business" lol i learned that from my uncle who works on rikers island in new york shoot even if my pants didnt fit i found a belt lol

@tigerfan3 what do you mean those people?...lol.

on the saggy pants thing, just look up Fleece Johnson, he explains it all.

I finally feel that I can add something relevant to this fascinating thread. It has to do with the 'appearance' digression that the thread wandered into. I am a rich guy but about 99.9% of the time I do not dress the part. I am pretty much true to my rural blue collar roots but now when I go to restaurants, bars, or SCs I am usually packing a hefty wad. I have also acquired a taste for fine single malts and the premiers grands crus Bordeaux.

It is a matter of some smug pride to me to plunk down a pink (Canadian $1000 bill) when some snob bartender suggests I order a less expensive single malt. Almost nobody in the service industry knows about these large bills since they were withdrawn from circulation years ago. When the snobby bartender says he cannot provide change for such a large bill I get my revenge. "I have nothing smaller" I reply sweetly and then pull out the ultra-high income Amex card tossing it nonchalantly at the jerk.

This is juvenile on my part, I know. But it does show that even old wealthy white guys can be judged by appearance and not by their worth as a human being. I am not claiming that my experiences equate to the racist shit described here by the other posts.

I am also fat. I can relate to the baggy pants discussion.

Listen, there are plenty places that will treat you just as anyone else. If the place(s) you've been going don't do that, don't go back. If they don't want you there, for whatever the reason, just find a new place.

I'm not black & I have been in plenty places that I just didn't gel with the vibe. Also plenty places that were like home. If you aren't fitting in, just find a new place, man. No sense spending your time and money where you aren't wanted, you know?

David Maraniss, the author of "When Pride Still Mattered," a biography of Vince Lombardi, recounts the story of Coach Lomabardi's address to the Green Bay Chamber of Commerce. According to the author, Lombardi told the Chamber that he had heard stories about his black players not being served at some restaurants. He reminded the audience that all of his players were required to wear the team sport jacket, shirt and tie when visiting establishments in Green Bay and rude conduct would result in a suspension. Then he told the audience that if any Packer was refused service anywhere in town, he would declare all bars and restuarants in Green Bay off limits for his players. Suddenly, black players were accepted in all resturants in Green Bay, Wisconsin.

Tigerfan, in his honesty, knows that some of this still goes on and it goes on in strip clubs. For those who say, "go elsewhere," why should anyone have to go through the hassle of searching for a stripclub that will treat him with respect. Try doing that when you are hosting a client and trying to close a deal. That suggestion reminds me of the old days when black churches and newspapers used to print travel advisories listing safe restaurants, hotels and motels for black interstate tourists traveling interstate by car.

from the OP: "yes its true most black men prefer ass over tits, remember that and stop sticking your fake boobies out"

I find it interesting that most of the other points show you getting your knickers in a twist over club personnel playing to stereotypes, but when it comes down to the dance, you WANT them to play to a stereotype. Make up your mind.

motorhead, so you have tied a link between (1) dress and music genre and (2) race. And you have tied a link between (1) "undesirable clientele" and (2) race. And the club is the one that's racist?

Sounds to me that the club was trying to discourage a culture that (by your own admission) both black and white people participate in. Yet you turned it into a race issue. And the club is the one that's racist?

leeh i dont have to make up my mind if you have read my post with full understanding you would have seen that i wasnt getting kickers i was simply pointing things out.. yes while theres alot of stereotypes that arent true there are a few that are.. so now im indecisive because im not trying to twist every stereotype??.. what next im have to say i dont like fried chicken and watermelon because im to break a few stereotypes??

Mmmm, fried chicken. A trip to Popeye's for lunch might be indicated.

This is a very interesting topic indeed, like reil i have also noticed the things he mentioned in his OP, and i have been covertly discriminated against in a mostly or all white club, hell i was even denied entry into one club because of my so-called baggy clothing.

i dress in appropriate attire each time and i don't even bother going near a club unless i have some money to blow, my clothes are kinda baggy because i wear 4 and 5X clothes due to my hefty size so i don't need clothes that fit snugly around my body, but they don't sag and i keep myself well groomed and hygienically cleansed. but after all is said and done, i am still seen as another black man looking to cause trouble, i have went to 3 white clubs and have been treated the same way, dancers not approaching me but they constantly send their shot girls and waitress over to take my money and serve me shit that i don't really want to drink but... i take it and pay because i want to give the club a shot, and if i get no results then i cross that club off my list, you know its funny how some people think its so easy to just go elsewhere if i am not being treated fairly at one club but its not easy, i don't want to be prejudiced towards the white clubs because i want to have equal opportunity fun at all clubs no mater what the dominant race is there.

i am not a prejudice man, but i do have my limits and the way i see it, if i get racially profiled at anymore mostly or all white clubs then i will just stick to the all black clubs, like superdude i live in Detroit and since i have been to most of the clubs in the city, i decided to start branching out into the dearborn area with no luck and even a few 8 mile clubs again with no luck, inkster is on my list next(i think ill skip the flight club) if i have no luck a H8 or bogarts then i will not set foot in a white club ever again, that's just my take on the situation.

you know its funny how some people can easily say that "they didn't have that problem at that place" but if you are black or latino you know that racism is still there and its not going anywhere, and the sad part is that most of the parents don't even realize that they are teaching their kids to be racist without even knowing it, those parents dont realize that their kids are picking up on their habits, then those kids will become adults and repeat the cycle because they don't know any better.

yes i know i am black, yes i know that the media is making us look even worse, yes i know that you may have had a bad experience with other black people, but all i am asking is..... can i at least have some benefit of a doubt before you throw me into the same pit, but i guess that asking for too much huh?

When a dancer mentions to me, that she doesn't like customers of a certain race (whether it be Black, or Asian, or Whites, doesn't matter), her attitude is a definite turn-off for me. She can be stunningly beautiful, offering excellent services at a low price, we can "click" on all other levels, but if there's some kind of racial prejudice going on in her head, I just start to think of her as, I dunno, less desirable. Her sexiness just escapes, probably to the same place where all the extra calories go when you break a cookie in half before you eat it, or to the place where they store that extra hour between the beginning and end of daylight-savings time (isn't it stored in Green Sandwich Mean somehow?).

And I'd suggest to the thread as a whole, that the distinction between "low class" or "deliberately ghetto style" (or call it whatever you want), on the one hand, as opposed to dark-skinned people, on the other, is a good distinctio to keep in mind. Sometimes the two go together, and there can be statistical correlations that are reasonable to assume in certain circumstances; but generally they are independent of one another: just because someone is dark-skinned, he need not be dumb, uneducated, or criminal. Similarly, just because a club caters to people of darker skin colors or hires mostly dancers of darker skin colors, need not mean that the club play mindless pounding anti-police music, violently degrade females, and require a predominance of tramp clothing and hair-styles which get most of their effect from a lot of excess cheap but shiny plastic parts. It's not necessary.

ok, rell, so maybe I overstated by saying "knickers in a twist". But every one of your "negative" bullets is addressing a different stereotype that many club personnel play into, that you feel they should not (and I agree with you on all of it).

"Don't stereotype me as a thug, just because I'm young and black" "Don't stereotype me as poor, just because I'm young and black" "Don't stereotype me as automatically being interested in the token black girl, just because I'm young and black" "Don't stereotype me as needing the white girl to 'act black', just because I'm young and black" "Don't stereotype me as unworthy of respect, just because I'm young and black" "Don't stereotype me as unsuccessful, just because I'm young and black"

But buried right in the middle of the list is (essentially):

"Please DO stereotype me as being more interested in ass than tits, just because I'm young and black"

It is, at best, bad business to play into ANY racial stereotype; and at worst, it's dead wrong. And frankly, I'm sure a lot of this crap goes on because of stupidity more than it does because of just plain ignorance (simply not knowing better). As Ron White says, "Ignorance can be fixed, but stupid is forever."

Yet you're encouraging club personnel to play into at least one stereotype. Perhaps my implication of indecision was wrong; but it is inconsistent.

no im not encouraging any stereotype..yes i agree with the stereotype of most black men are ass men.. (me being one)i do know a few black men that are tit guys but anyway to you it may seem inconsistant .. but my point wasnt to be consistant nor try to tear every stereotype down or affirm another stereotype i just took everything i see and honestly put it out there for me to sit there and worry about being consistant wouldnt be telling the whole truth .. i dont want to be stereotyped for liking ass i just want her to put her ass in my hands instead of her tits

"It is, at best, bad business to play into ANY racial stereotype; and at worst, it's dead wrong"

Absolute nonsense. Good business is to do what the customers want, 'cuz that's what makes money. If most black guys like girls with big butts, you hire girls with big butts. If the stereotype is generally true, you don't dismiss it just because you don't like it. For some reason many people assume stereotyping is always bad. Usually that's just ignorance. As I said before, the statistics show that 1 out of every 4 black males will be incarcerated in their lifetimes, and 1 out of 20 white males. Pick any stereotype, either positive or negative, and chances are you'll find there's some truth behind it.

"i dont want to be stereotyped for liking ass i just want her to put her ass in my hands instead of her tits "

And how is she supposed to come to that conclusion, short of you specifically telling her?

On a side note, I never got ass men of any color til I saw my ATATF. I would literally forget to breathe for a minute whenever I saw her ass, particularly in black lace. ;-)

jerikson, so what you're saying is that the club personnel should assume that rell is a poor, thug who's unworthy of respect, simply because of a statistic.

rell, I think we just found the club owner.

jerikson, stats say whatever you want them to say. 1 of every 4 black males will be incarcerated. I don't dispute this as fact. But I have a very large family on both parents sides and larger extended. Quickly I can think of over 50 men under the olive branch of both sets of grandparents. Of those 40, thankfully none have ever been incarcerated. You seem to suggest that due to the "truth behind" the stats and stereotypes that on average 10 of my family members should be treated as criminals when they go out just because they're black males and chances are 1 in 4 of them are up to no good.

I think at this point we should move this forum back to focusing on the girls and the clubs in our areas, but my goodness what you insinuated in your post is the exact same line of thinking that keeps racism alive.

uscue, you are taking what I say and making it something I never said, just to prove your bias. My only point is that facts are facts. I didn't make the statistics. I never extrapolated from the statistics and formed any conclusions. Nor did I insinuate anything. I never said anyone should be treated in any way. You ASSUMED I did. READ what I said. I merely said that if the facts show that 1 in 4 black males will be incarcerated, then nobody should be surprised if folks are more suspicious of black males. That's it. What's ignorant, by definition, is when people are ignorant of the facts. And it is ridiculous to say that mentioning factual statistics keeps racism alive. And to imply that anyone thinks that anyone in your family is somehow bad because of that statistic is equally ridiculous.

Personally, I think irrational bias against blacks (or anyone else) like what rell encountered is moronic. But not all bias is irrational.

FWIW, I'm a white guy, but I tend to prefer black clubs. I also prefer black dancers, and I don't feel uncomfortable in black clubs. But I do understand why folks might feel uncomfortable in those clubs in South Central LA. The crime rate is much higher there than other neighborhoods. That's a fact. Is it racist to say that? Does it keep racism alive?

Blacks are disproportionately represented in arrest, incarceration, and (consequently) in recidivism figures. Drug offenses and property crimes are primarily the reason, but it is not that blacks have more of a drug problem or are inherently more violent. It is mainly that low income folks engage in that kind of behavior, and blacks are disproportionately low income. For some reason we don't care that much about incarcerating white collar criminals (including those AIG peckers) or fat radio personalities that abuse Oxycontin, but we are going to throw the book at that street corner dealer. Our legal system provides minimal protections for criminal defendants who have little money, but if you are a fat radio personality you can hire the best criminal defense lawyer money can buy.

So to say that prison populations with large segments of black inmates justifies a club's aggressive attempts to "discourage" black customers misses the mark. Banning felons from entry might get a little closer, but past behavior does not guarantee future behavior and penalizes those guys that were unlucky enough to get caught and incarcerated. And fat radio personalities are still treated upon entry to the SC like rock stars. But they are still dicks.

Larry, those are some excellent points. I think what Larry is saying is that it's not really their fault, and they're not really "criminal" criminals, it's just what happens when you're low income. And I think he's also right that blacks are disproportionally unlucky for getting caught and incarcerated. And if they'd just go after Limbaugh and the bankers the numbers would be more equal.

Wow, I never thought of it that way.

In any case, to bring this back to some sort of strip club related topic, yesterday I went to a black club in LA. And I was completely ignored by all but one of the black dancers. The least attractive one. But the other dancers were paying attention to the black customers. And I felt for a moment like they were ignoring me because I'm white.

Well, until one of the best looking dancers came up to me and sat down and began stroking me in plain sight of the club, and then we went for a lap dance and she gave me a dance that blew my socks off.

Okay, bad example. Not sure what my point is. Guess I'm still recovering from the dance. :)

Man i don't think i've ever been to a club that told me the prices at the door when i was walking in, it would be better because usually I ask how much & what they do & the girls always act like your an undercover cop when you do that, they won't say how much everything is or what all they do. Then your left having to ask others who've been there before. I hate it when a girl says "just pay for a private dance & you'll see when we get back there", bullshit. I have been approached before by black girls before other girls. The bartenders didn't send them over, they did it on their own prolly assuming since I'm black i'd like her but I didn't, told her no thanks. I love asian girls so thats usually what I go for when i'm in any strip club. I think the deal with white and black IMO & experience is that white guys usually drop alot of cash in the strip club, brothers don't. The girls know this & it's why they speak to the white guys mostly unless you have spoken to a particular girl & shown that you are willing to drop some ends in the club that's how it is. As far as dress codes, from what I've seen minorities are usually better dressed than white guys in the club. Latino & black dudes usually come in wearing ironed brand new looking name brand clothing while white guys will routinely show up with raggedy jeans, faded shirts and year old sneakers. Now there are a few that dress nice, but the latter is outnumbered by the prior for sure. Bottom line is this: unless your a celebrity or pro-sport player, skin color doesn't matter, your not gonna walk into any strip club and have all the girls & the manager kissin your butt on the first few visits. It isn't until after you've been to a club a few times & dropped a few bucks that you get good customer service. I usually pick out 1 or 2 girls & stick to talking to just them for the duration of however long i'm gonna be visiting that club. Once you've established that, when you come in, the other girls know not to speak to you, when the manager see's you he usually greets his regulars & then he sends your regulars or regular to sit with you if she's not already busy. Sometimes, the bartender will comp you drinks. Like I started off though, this is my experience...

What does this say, if anything? detnews.com

"What does this say, if anything?"

Well, if you're implying that just because a bunch of shootings occurred, then it had to have been done by african-americans, I think that the kind of stuff that keeps racism alive. All you have to do is look at the Census numbers for Detroit, and you'll see that the percentage of blacks in the population is only, let's see...um, 81%.

Oh. Okay, so maybe all the shootings were done by blacks. But as looneylarry said, it's not their fault. That's just what happens when you're poor. And as he mentioned, they're just unlucky that everyone is focusing on shootings by blacks, when there are probably worse numbers of shootings going on right now in white cities that nobody is paying any attention to. Heck, they really should be sending the Detroit police after Limbaugh and the bankers.

No, I don't think that random shootings keep racism alive, but rampant ignorance does. These are not musings I have pulled straight from my ass, but based on findings from social science. I must have offended somebody who wants to defend fat radio personalities and white collar criminals. Sorry about that, those guys have such difficult lives as it is.

Let me break it down some more for some of you. Poor people commit more property crimes and violent crimes and have a greater chance to be are involved in illicit drug activity. When you don't have money and your life is miserable, you often seek escape through drugs, and you will get weapons to protect yourself. If blacks are disproportionately poor, then they will have disproportionately higher rates of crime and drug use. So if there are violent crimes in an inner city, we shouldn't be surprised if blacks are involved. And if there is rural crime we shouldn't be surprised if some white trailer trash trying to support their meth habit is involved. It is odd that some crackers want to point to black crime as the reason we should discriminate against blacks, but the fact is that most black crime is perpetrated against other blacks because that's where they live. So whites are concerned about black crime only enough to use it as an excuse to discriminate against them, but not enough to care to do anything about it. It is better to lock them up and warehouse those criminals.

I never said that these criminals were absolved of any responsibility for their crimes. Our criminal code is full of offenses to address drug crimes, gun crimes, violent crimes, and property crimes. Our incarceration rates are some of the highest of any developed nation. Don't even get me started on the death penalty--how do we have such high murder rates when we are one of the last countries still imposing the death penalty? I thought THAT was supposed to be a deterrent.

And I'll type this slowly so that jerikson can understand it: We have prosecuted these crimes to such an extent that a vast swath of the black male population has been put behind bars. Yet there is still more violence. And it is not because blacks have something amiss in their character or their genes. Blacks shooting blacks in a parking lot did not cause the current recession, but the recession has made their lives and ours much worse. No one has gone to jail for the massive criminal wrongdoing that crippled our economy. We don't seem to care if a fat radio personality explains it all away by blaming it on a black president or if he abused prescription drugs. We don't even seem to care if the vast gulf between the rich and the poor in this country continues to widen. But we have gotten very good at jailing street thugs, so that should take care of it.

Larry, baby, no need to get your shorts in a bunch. I think we're getting way off the point of the thread. I merely said that, based on crime statistics, folks shouldn't be surprised if some people are more leery of young black males. You then went into a bit of a rant with what seemed to be excuses WHY black males make up such a large portion of the incarceration statistics, and totally unrelated complaints about Limbaugh and the bankers, and now you're trying to explain why society is so screwed up.

If you want to argue the WHY's of it all, go right ahead. It doesn't change things. Facts are facts. People will continue to be leery of young black males, and the facts, to some extent, tend to support it. Doesn't make it right, doesn't mean anyone supports irrational racism.

You can get upset at me, you can blame whomever you want, but to the extent you deflect blame for the incarceration rates to anyone but the ones responsible, you're going to get some flack.

Meh. Yes, facts are facts. So I think that I will cast a suspicious eye on anybody riding a motorcycle, since biker clubs have had their share of illegality. And I'll watch closely any of those dirty, filthy immigrants since they tend to be criminals. And those Moslems, we have all seen what they can do. And I'll be sure to keep the authorities on speed dial when I'm following an elderly driver, since it is a known fact that older people can't drive worth a shit. And everybody knows that every stripper is a ROB and deserves whatever they get. And I am placing the blame for my treatment of all these people squarely on them, since they are the responsible parties.

Umm, Larry, I'm sure all that makes sense to you somehow, but honestly, between you and me, you're sounding a bit looney.

Hey, wait a minute...isn't that??....

Sigh. Un-freaking-believable. I used satire to show how your line of thinking is crazy. And I am talking to you, jerikson, since at this point I am assuming that no one else is following this thresd. I could try to break it down even more, but I don't want to use a crayon to connect three dots. To cite prison statistics to justify discrimination at the SC is using skewed numbers to rationalize an abhorrent practice. And it doesn't make it any better to say that "I don't justify it myself, but we can't change what the rest of the world does." And has it occurred to anyone that a fine, upstanding, law-abiding black male could go into a strip club and soon develop a chip on his shoulder based on how he is (mistakenly) treated? I'm done with this thread and I'm done with imbeciles.

LARRY !!! NO, DON'T GO !!! Awwww, come on. I thought we were bestest buddies.

Okay, if you're gonna be that way, then I'll leave you with my best bit of wisdom. Just for you, cuz you're my buddy. Here it is...

"What keeps racism alive is when folks see it everywhere, even where it doesn't exist."

Pretty good, huh? Now come on, you gotta be impressed with that one.

I'm gonna miss you, buddy....

I know this an old thread, but something caught my eye on the internet and I felt like it deserved a comment. (and I know this is "somewhat" off topic, but....)

Poll Question on the MSN homepage:

"Who do you think is the most influential African-American between the ages of 25 & 45?" The choices included, Jay-Z, John Legend, Tyler Perry, and Soledad O'Brien. (I thought she was white/Latino).

For real? I'm white but I'm old enough to remember the Civil Rights Movement of the 60's. The influential leaders of that era were Ralph Abernathy, Andrew Young, Julian Bond, Stokley Carmichael, and of course Dr. King.

They couldn't come up with better choices than Jay-Z and Tyler Perry? I'm surprised they didn't put Nas and 50 Cent on the list.

I don't know, maybe if they had a poll question of young, influential white Americans, the list would Snooki, Seth Rogen, and Justin Timberlake. So maybe I'm overreacting.

IMO, 1 in 4 black males statistically will be incarcerated, as opposed to 1 in 20 white males, not because of poverty-related crimes, but because of POLICE RACISM! More black men are arrested serve time because the police are MUCH more likely to bother a black man standing on a street corner than a white man doing the exact same thing. These statistics are skewed not because blacks commit more crimes than whites, it's because policemen are prejudiced, along with the entire justice system.

wow i remember this