Is an expensive college worth it?

It's going to depend on the major / intended career path.

A computer engineer via MIT will have an advantage over a computer engineer from a state school.

An English major... not so much.

As a product of some elite schools, including names on this list here's my take:

1. The names do generate some awe. It's what economists call "signaling," they think "wow, Tom must be a really smart and capable guy if he went to Princeton!" It gets your foot in the door in many places.

However,

2. For most people, you're not learning different or better shit. Calculus is calculus, whether you're taking it at MIT or Cape Cod Community College. You might be surrounded by better and smarter people at the former, or have some opportunities for independent research under a top scholar, but only the brightest and most motivated 10% will take advantage of it. Even top schools have slackers and partiers.

3. Outside of academia or big law (where they're abnormally obsessed with names and GPA), the name advantage fades the further you get from graduation day. After a few years in the workforce, your prospective employer or grad school cares more about what you did in your last role. As you progress, soft skills and professional accomplishments matter more and more.

4. You don't become a "centi-millionaire" as an employee, you become one by starting your own business (or getting in on the ground floor) and growing it to the stars. These schools select on more than academics alone. Harvard has more perfect SAT scores and valedictorians alone than spots in the class. They select for drive and abnormal talent in one area ("spikiness") rather than just being all-around smart. If you showed business chops by starting your own thing in high school and having any kind of success, these schools will fawn over you. And many of these schools will consider your (or your family's) potential to give back once you've made it.

My guess is a lot of these "centi-millionaires" showed business ambition and talent even as teens.

My take on this is pretty simple, there are an awful lot of college graduates struggling just to pay off their student debt even into their middle age, and there are a lot of folks who elected to learn a trade living a nice middle class life. If you have an actual aptitude for a career that requires higher education get the best you can afford, but going into debt for a mediocre degree with uncertain prospects is counterproductive.

How many of the people that attend these schools start out with the proverbial "Golden Spoon" in their mouth. I'm sure many who get into these schools are legacy admissions following in their rich parents' footsteps. So many probably inherit a large some as well.

I'm sure it's not all but it's probably at least more than a few.

As for college in general, I think a top 10 is always going to be a great investment, anything below where you're not going to use what you directly learned (like STEM) is a waste of time and money.

Economics 101. When a good becomes common, its value drops. In the 50s, something like 5% of people went to college--even a decent college degree meant you could write your own ticket. Now at 35%, and more among the younger, they're common and have declined in value. That's why you see baristas with bachelor's degrees from respectable schools.

The "cancel student debt" movement misses the point. The problem is the gratuitous subsidies of higher education have driven college costs on hockey stick growth. As long as there's no price signal in the market, the bubble's going to grow and grow. We could forgive it all (at extreme cost to the country) and we're going to have another giant student debt problem in a decade.

We've also denigrated the trades. We push too many kids into college who have no business there. We're always going to need plumbers and electricians and construction workers. We should market these as honorable careers, not the last resort for people too stupid for college.

I don't think the education received at those schools is the main driver for success. There are a few factors that lead to the majority of the super rich being from those schools.

1) A lot of the people admitted to those schools come from families that are already successful and raise their children to excel.

2) The students that get admitted to those schools usually already have an incredible work ethic before college and that leads to success later in life.

3) The networking opportunities at those top schools is leaps and bounds above a lower tier school. That includes the other students, the faculty and the alumni you interact with who can be well positioned to help you build your career or even to partner up with on launching a company.

4) For certain careers (law/medical/engineering etc) the school you attend will determine what type of firm you get started at right out of school. While that first job doesn't guarantee success, it does give you a better paycheck and better networking than if you start out at a smaller firm and those can combine to help you start your own company.

In the end a lot of what makes someone successful goes beyond what they learn in school. Their own personal drive, networking and access to the funding to start their own company earlier in life goes a long way towards building huge amounts of wealth. The teenagers that possess those factors before college are more likely to be admitted to a top school than others. However, most of those people that are extremely successful after attending a top school would have been extremely successful no matter where they decided to go to school.

The colleges admit people who are upper 1% in IQ plus super ambitious. That explains their higher income, not the education in college.

Tetradon’s first post nailed most of this.

The biggest difference that I’ve observed among grads from elite schools vs. very good schools is the incredible drive or desire to create something that will be a real difference maker in their area of interest. Whereas perhaps 5% of very good but not elite school grads want to launch a business, a ton (33%?) of elite schools grads have that desire.

On the flip side, I know plenty of Harvard and Stanford grads whose careers are on a very unspectacular career path.

I see it sort of like wine.

A $20 bottle is much better than a jug of Carlo. Even the jug of Carlo is better than nothing. And a $200 bottle can be sublime or just pretty good, but it’s not proportional, not 10x better. People will be impressed by your $200 bottle though.

So with respect to your career… a state school is miles better than community college, but both are transformationally better than no college at all. An ivy (I went to the English version of “ivy”) is a lot more cost and hassle both on the way in and during your stay, and you will impress somebody at some point by dropping the name, including recruiters. But it’s not 10 times better for your career than the next level down.

^ Thanks, though @whodey raised a great point that grads of these top schools are more likely to have rich parents backstopping them in case their big ventures failed.

Musk, Bezos, Gates, Zuck weren't going to go hungry if their big ideas tanked.

it's all in the name.

Nope the school doesn't matter. What matters more is connections or being a token.

Generally being smart is a handicap in the US . No one wants to hire anyone they'll see as competition.

Hell no. Honestly most are paying for the college experience of partying and what not. There less expensive ways to achieve that.

Depends who pays for it. I bet alot of those kids have rich parents paying so why not.

People having a net worth over $100 million is not the level of earnings those studies are measured against. I'd rather know which schools produce the hottest strippers.

^^

it would have to be Stanford. I’ve seen some hot Stanford cheerleaders. Hell, I’m not sure if the other schools have cheerleaders

"On the flip side, I know plenty of Harvard and Stanford grads whose careers are on a very unspectacular career path."

Speaking from experience, high achievers are a sheltered bunch. Focused on academics and extracurriculars over social development, among other things. That means the undergrad years are going to be a rough time of self discovery. Many discover that they're sick of the academic high achiever life and spend their years smoking pot and partying and slacking. As an undergrad I grew painfully shy, not continuing on a fast track to a top med school or McKinsey or Goldman Sachs, but not living it up socially either.

Later, I had opportunities to get back on that track at an even higher level, but decided they weren't worth the 100 hours weeks, living in a city I hated, and dealing with asshole sociopaths. I have hobbies that I love and I go crazy when I can't partake. Some people are willing to give it all for the corner office. I am not.

Now, I'm on a solid unspectacular track, maximizing my mix of money, prestige, hobbies, and overall happiness in life. And looking with pity at the ones who made partner at Sullivan and Crowmell or Davis Polk who are raking it in but tremendously fucking miserable.

Yes I’ve seen some of both types. The hyper driven who endlessly burn themselves out in order to get ahead. They then get ahead but it’s never enough - title, respect and/or income, so they keep grinding away on the quest for the unattainable. A couple of hyper successful attorneys (litigators) that I know are loaded but miserable. Many of the very senior execs that I’ve interacted with at major publicly traded companies are narcissistic douche bags; the women just as insufferable as the men by the way.

Recently I’ve interacted with some unbelievably talented go getter, mid 30s, founders of companies. They are still on the rise and idealistic and riding a wave of VC infused growth and seemningly content - perhaps still just optimistic and hopeful that their concept will take off.

One other potential factor is that at "prestige" institutions, very few undergrads or even masters candidates will ever see the big name professors and in fact will be taught by graduate assistants.

At smaller colleges, students are a lot more likely to have the first team instructing them.

It's not that the school teaches anything different. I think it's more of a factor as to who becomes students at those schools.

1) You have to be really smart to get IN to one of those schools.
2). You very well may be from a family that is already wealthy before you attended those schools .

“It's not that the school teaches anything different”

Excellent point. When I got my MBA - again at a Big 10 state school, I would often research the text book for each class (I’m kind of a geek when it comes to stuff like that)

More times than not, the text was the same one being used at those schools listed. So, I was using the same text and problem sets in Operations Management that MIT and Stanford students were using but they would be graduating with significantly higher salaries.

I think it's valid that, as you get further into your career, school degrees matter less and less. People will look at your experience more than anything else.

Though I will say that many of the schools mentioned at the top of this post have very active alumni networking programs that are fostered by the university itself. I know people who have landed interviews and jobs using alumni contacts.

It's one of those things that shouldn't matter, but often does anyway.

Ha I have to laugh at this. The “VP” of my home owners association is a stay at home mom, but at EVERY SINGLE MEETING she reminds everyone that she and her husband are both Harvard grads. He is an economics professor.

Ha! Yep, gotta love the people who frequently announce where they went to school. It’s one thing if the person is a recent grad and trying to leverage it to accelerate credibility. But this can also backfire if your colleagues frown upon that sort of buffoonery.

It’s a whole different level of ‘who the fuck cares’ if the person is over 35 and it is progressively more ridiculous as one ages.

I believe a degree from one of the schools listed is largely worth the money. It will give the graduate a true advantage in their career.

I base that on the graduate having drive and desire to excel in their career. However, it requires drive and desire to be accepted to one of those schools, so it likely is already present in the student.

If affording one of those schools requires one to get deeply indebted - it might not be fully worthwhile. That type of burden might cause a person to make questionable choices as they move through their career.

Graduates of Harvard and other Ivy League schools make more money than graduates of state universities. However, not everyone starts out at the same place in life. Ivy League graduates mostly have parents who are wealthy and can afford to send them to Harvard or Yale. The children of the rich not only can go to college without incurring crippling debt but also their parents have contacts in business and professions that will help them to get good jobs on graduation. It also helps you in starting a new business if your parents can lend you $1 or $2 million.

Go look up Rhodes Scholars. It may shock you what schools have several recipients, and which ones have very few, or even none.

Joining consporatorial societies such as Bohemian Grove, Skull and Bones, the Illuminati, etc, are the only means to elite power (the 0.001%). Then you have to do something illegal or immoral like attend a Satanic molestation ritual so they have a hold over you and know you can't quit or spill the beans.

I'm not sure why this thread ended up on TUSCL, but the longer it goes on the more it's going to read like FOMO and sour grapes. For my take on things, I'm pretty sure I've tagged some strippers that are just as hot as the ones the Ivy Leaguers can pull.

Billionaire's neither go to strip club, nor post here. Their standard is way higher into models etc. Even they won't post a question like big 10 school worth it? The answer is yes. If you are smart enough to use the big 10 tag.

WE grew up in the projects. Four kids in my family. All have degrees and 3 of us have at least one advanced degree. One of us went to Harvard business school, the only ivy leaguer. Guess which of the 4 lives on the water in North Palm Beach and flies their own plane.

"Billionaire's neither go to strip club, nor post here."

Champphilly, I try not go rude here, but men are men. Rich dudes like a quick and dirty fuck as much as the rest of us. But the smarter ones send a runner lol.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/10/…

^ Yeah, I was about to post about Kraft.

Anyone can wind up successful if they work hard, have some cleverness / smarts, and get an education somewhere and somehow (plus a smidgen of luck). But, going to a prestigious school can be a leg up, particularly early in a career.

It can also be an anchor, because it's not cheap.

Oh douches like champphily make is so obvious they’re trolling.


Wallanon is exactly right. Robert Kraft was getting handjobs from 50 year old Asian women that even Cashman would probably turn down. You don’t think he had the money to get 4 top tier hookers anytime he wants? Why is he going to a strip mall AMP? Discretion and quickness, not any different than the PL coming in after him that makes 45k a year who works at Home Depot.

And for the people saying what school you go to doesn’t matter, you’ve obviously never been to a higher tier job interview. If you’re in an interview and you have a business degree from Ohio U and not Chicago U you’re going to get dinged. Yeah if you’re interviewing to the manager of a beach for Enterprice Rent A Car isn’t not going to matter. If you’re in an interview for an upper management position for a Fortune 500 company it does.

@motorhead

I will play along and comment on your discussion.

Q: Is an expensive college worth it?

A: NO

“Students who acquire large debts putting themselves through school are unlikely to think about changing society.

When you trap people in a system of debt they can't afford the time to think.

Tuition fee increases are a disciplinary technique, and by the time students graduate, they are not only loaded with debt, but have also internalized the disciplinarian culture.

This makes them efficient components of the
consumer economy.”

~ Avram Noam Chomsky - American Linguist
~ Born December 7, 1928 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, U.S.

^ There’s a few Hamburger U dropouts posting here

Selection criteria is a big part of the equation. The fact that a candidate got in to an ivy generally shows intellect and drive. Hiring managers use this when deciding who to interview. Of course once you are in the interview, you can still fuck it up regardless of pedigree.

I agree largely with Tetradon. To answer the question, yes, it does matter where you went to school. For the last several years, I have been part of the hiring committee, we need engineers, data/computer/information scientists, financial specialists/accounting types for our consulting practice. So for starters, a grad will have to have marketable skill, preferably engineering and comp sci. For Big 10 schools, we largely look at UofI and Purdue, and maybe Michigan. We compete more for Stanford, Cal Tech, UofCal, MIT, than say Uchicago or Northwestern. For Ivy we look at more Cornell and Princeton than Yale and Harvard. For grads with Liberal Arts degrees, you better show something great on your resume and damn well show some aptitude on the various rounds of interviews to make it in here. We do take plenty of laterals, but 5 years solid (10 preferred) work experience to make associate, but unless you know someone who works here as a reference, a school like e.g. Indiana State will likely ding the potential lateral out of the hiring process.

As for centi-millionaires, one thing that gets bandied about around work here is that millionaires -- not centi- -- are often self-made and something like 3-5% are millionaires from inheritance. The drive to create and move/innovate business is the key to consulting and is something that is largely pushed and highly rewarded. To get to the centi level, from what I see, you have to own your own business(es). These people are largely from the schools mentioned in the OP. They need labor or other like minds to pull of their business plan. I agree "learning" from college is somewhat overrated, but the connections one can make to realize these opportunities is one of the largest reasons to go to such a college in the first place.

Does it matter & is it worth it are two different questions. And there are a shit ton of things to factor in, more than I care to type, probably more than I understand. At my company, it matters. It being worth it depends on your perspective in life and your personal situation.

For a kid with money who can pay for it without working a full time job and taking on lots of debt, it's almost certainly worth it. For a kid who'd have to do both and wouldn't be able to get the full benefit of the academic and social opportunities afforded at those schools, it's almost certainly not. For those in the middle, it's harder to say.

45k a year working at home depot. Must be a good paying depot by you lol

A lot of of in depth, well thought out answers

Although I shouldn’t be surprised because we TUSCLers are a very smart bunch!

I only posted because as I said, wealth is really concentrated from a small number of schools and the article pointed it out - I didn’t expect so many replies

"I didn’t expect so many replies"

It's probably a sore spot given how status conscious so many TUSCLers seem to be. Probably would've been more appropriate for the political forum, but whatever I've responded to it multiple times. Most of the frequent board posters don't seem to care if threads are off topic anyway.

I personally think degrees are overrated unless specialized skills are required that exceed what can be learned while working, but that's easier to say when you have one. My school wasn't anything special, but my education gave me more time to piss around and enough income to play with beautiful toys so I've got no complaints.

The problem that's out there is schools and teachers aren't upfront enough about what the value of higher education is. If students aren't coming from families where college degrees bettered their lives, without that perspective they can set themselves up for a lifetime of struggle because the financial commitments all hit upfront.

This isn't an invitation for the peevish to start whinging about loan forgiveness again, we already sat through that for months, but the first thing that needs to be understood about success is that all the hard work in the world doesn't mean anything if it never meets opportunity. Kinda like those dudes out there that keep asking about why they can't get laid by strippers after walking into a club with money.

“The secret of great fortunes without apparent cause is a crime that has been forgotten, because it was properly carried out.”

~ Honore de Balzac

45k a year working at home depot. Must be a good paying depot by you lol

“Assistant manager” maybe??? Lol

Talent + Motivation + (access = Industry College Alum) = Success

Or, on the flip side....Don't be dull and lazy and dont hang with losers.