At what point do PL-Dancer become John-Whore, and is that a bad thing?

I see nothing immoral about paying for physical pleasure.

I think its more complex than it seems. When he pays for sex is the obvious answer.

But I'd say when he forms any sort of attachment and keeping it is contingent on him paying for it.

Paying for sex isn't bad. What's bad is the exploitive nature of sex work. The myth of the happy hooker is just that. There's no escaping the dark underbelly of prostitution. Denying it is delusional.

I think a well adjusted trick is honest and doesn't sugar coat it. He's accountable.

This is the sort of navel-gazing internal debate that most often happens to a guy who is relatively new to strip clubs. I don't care.

"Paying for sex" covers a lot of territory. It is not automatically bad, but there are forms of paying for sex that are horrific.

It's the oldest profession 😇

Strip club; ponies; poker; hiking; golf; skiing all the same; all entertainment. I see little miss tiny dick talking about the exploitive nature of it - fuck off windbag.

It's sex work if it caters to the sexual and/or romantic needs of customer. Physical contact or lack thereof is irrelevant.

Sex is generally dangerous, because it often triggers emotions in unpredictable ways.

When it goes OTC?

So “John” and “whore” are pretty derogatory terms. So I guess it gets to that level depending on what social circle you’re in and what act is the line where something is considered derogatory.

Is it shameful to admit going to a club to stage tip? That’s the line. Otherwise it’s not.
Is it shameful to admit to getting a lapdance with no touch allowed? That’s the line. Otherwise it’s not.
Is it shameful to admit to getting a lapdance with two way contact? That’s the line. Otherwise it’s not.
Etc
Etc
All the way to…
Is it shameful to admit to getting full service sex work? That’s the line. Otherwise it’s not. (Tho for the most part, I don’t think anybody has avoided that last step being a taboo in some way. An individual can be at peace with his/her own actions. But as far as whatever society or social circle one is in…)

Personally what *I* consider whether something is “bad” or “good”: can you look at yourself in the mirror and feel at peace with yourself. Do you feel a need to sugar coat your actions somehow, and can you be honest with yourself at bare minimum about your actions, etc

Even if not honest with *others* for whatever reason, at least the self? (Though if one is in a situation that requires lots of sneaking, that will take a mental and emotional toll too, and not ideal)

It may sound like a ridiculous thing from me to say, but lots of dancers and customers both are full of shit about things that are small and shouldn’t even matter. That behavior stems from somewhere

Also bad: acts that have to do with crossing the boundaries (physical, emotional, psychological, financial) of others in some way. That is beyond the scope of this thread though.

@nice: “ lots of dancers and customers both are full of shit about things that are small and shouldn’t even matter”… can you give some examples you have come across?

Oooh boy.

So as far as customers, for example, pay attention to who I end up trolling the most on this site, and try to guess why. There are also some who I end up questioning certain things they may say but I might refrain from calling them out for whatever reason.

For dancers:

Money brags that have nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

Hating on extras, and taking the initiative to complain vs responding to someone ever, but suspiciously hanging out in clubs known for activities for extended periods of time.

Talking about making trips or something extended and alone with a customer but didn’t have sex (even if true, who freaking cares at that point)

Etc

Lap dance = whatever she feels like doing for the 10 or 20 or 25/song

Paying for sex from a sex worker = paying extra money for her to give an HJ, BJ, FS, or ZJ (ZJ -- come on, somebody here has seen Beerfest, right???)


Whether it's a bad thing depends on your own comfort level (I'm not comfortable paying for sex... I'd rather hook up with a girl who wants to do it), and / or whether it requires you to be dishonest with a significant other.

I think if you have to lie to or hide it from a wife or girlfriend, that's where the immorality comes from...not from a law or cultural "norm", but from an intentional breach of trust.


If you're single, or you have an arrangement with your s.o., I think two consenting adults should be able to make whatever agreement they want. As Johnny Lawrence would say, hashbrown legalize it.

Many people are bad at managing money, it's smug and nasty to be judgmental pr condescending towards them. Sex work is gig work, so unpredictable income stream. Sex workers tend to be younger, have had less time to build up savings. The main moral issue is dealing with sex workers having a financial crisis and feeling pressure to push their boundaries. If possible, get more of her services within her normal boundaries, don't see it as an opportunity to get extras she hasn't provided previously.

Concerns about "cheating" generally seem sadly superficial to me. If somebody honestly loves you, they should be concerned if you feel sexual frustrated. They shouldn't be focused on enforcing their property rights over you, or feeling that your frustration is a willful insult to their attractiveness.

If you think God cares if you follow some arbitrary set of rules, rather than whether you deal with others justly and compassionately, consider the logic of worshiping a God who is clearly an idiot.

No one involved in the same transaction as any better than the other(s) involved. Pretend otherwise if it makes you feel better.

Youre all sugar coating it.

You can't consent to an illegal act.

Taking advantage of someone desperate enough to sell themselves so you can use her as a cum dump isn't positive by any ethical standards.

You can't even own up to what you do.

@icee: “ You can't consent to an illegal act.” … I don’t follow your point here. I can consent to buying coke from the local coke dealer, and so can he. Buying and selling coke are illegal acts. Can you clarify what you mean?

@drewcareypnw

I will play along and comment on your discussion.

The concept of selling/buying/paying-for sex is misunderstood.

An adult is paying another adult for his or her time and companionship.

Anything that happens between two consenting adults in privacy is nobody business. (Society, government, authorities, police, religious groups, other humans of any kind, etc etc etc)

Sex is always a reciprocal gift.

Remember nothing, and I mean NOTHING, in this capitalist society is ever free, you will pay one way or another.

When buying anything, just make sure you get what you pay for and are happy about the transaction.

If anyone is honest with them self , they’d admit if they aren’t part of the transaction it’s really none of their business and certain posters are just judgements shits, and should really shut the fuck up yes I’m talking to you Iceefag.

^ I still don't get why he spends so much time on here just to talk shit and pass judgment. Nothing better to do than troll strangers on the internet?

I think there are many good insights in the comments. I think NiceSpice makes several good points. This likely requires honest introspection, to see where your lines are.

I’m not judging others - just myself. I know I crossed my lines several times when I was a married, heavy drinking, filthy club goer. Fucking strippers ITC and OTC, and taking stupid risks without considering their impact on my life situation.

Icee said "You can't consent to an illegal act."

Yes, you can. That doesn't suddenly make the act legal, but if law enforcement becomes involved, then consent is a factor in the perpetrator's favor (not always but often). It depends on the illegal act. And with regard to vice-related crimes associated with sex work, consent is very often a critical factor.

Again, provable consent doesn't automatically make an illegal act legal, but it does move the needle in terms of enforcement and sentencing, if it comes to that.

But I know you care more about stirring shit than anything else, so proceed as usual.

"Taking advantage of someone desperate enough to sell themselves"

Icee, What an incredibly ironic thing for a pimp to say. I mean that's pretty much the job description of a pimp. Does this mean you're dropping the fake pimp persona? Can you drop the fake lawyer one as well?

At what point do grown ass men stop feeling the need to put simplistic labels upon people and their activities? Also at what point does a dancer stop being a dancer just because she cashes in on side opportunities?

Legally you can't consent to an illegal act. Which is why illicit activities aren't contractually binding. Ie you can't tell a judge you did nothing wrong coz you both consented to solicitation prostitution etc.

You're all butt hurt coz you don't want to admit to being criminals and nothing but tricks to these girls.

@icey: Last I checked, soliciting was a misdemeanor and pimping was a felony. Doesn’t that make us all criminals?

===> "You're all butt hurt coz you don't want to admit to being criminals and nothing but tricks to these girls."

You post the "trick" part like it's a bad thing. For me her leaving without drama is one the best parts of the interaction. 👍

Your denial is the problem. Just own up to it

drew, you can engage with a dancer, but without treating her as a prostitute. You can have sex with her and give her money, but without treating her as a prostitute.

Consider that you are approaching her because you want her to be your mistress.

SJG

Denial of what specifically? That we buy sex? That it's a misdemeanor crime?

That like people who get in fistfights, posses marijuana, shoplift, drive negligently, commit fish and hunting violations, publicly urinate, drive with a suspended license, and engage in disorderly conduct, we are breaking the law and might get a fine or a class?

I certainly don't deny any of that. It should be obvious to anyone who reads tuscl that many of us are buying sex in one way or another, depending on your definition. We even write detailed reviews and compare notes on the subject. So where is the denial?

I further question the premise that tusclers are "butt hurt" about being "nothing but a trick". I for one like being nothing but a trick to these girls, just as I don't pursue romantic relationships with my mechanic or my plumber. More broadly, I don't see a lot of other tusclers as obviously butt hurt. They seem for the most part to be seasoned purchasers of strippers' services (which may incude sex), and seem to have a pretty realistic and transactional attitude about it.

I wonder what you are driving at? Some sort of PL mea-culpa wherein we admit to buying sex from girls who don't love us? I think that's already obvious.

drewcareypnw said "I wonder what you are driving at?"

"Manufactured drama" is the phrase you're looking for.

"Denial of what specifically? That we buy sex? "

Whether it is a crime or not is not important. It would only be the most minor of crimes, like loitering or open alcohol container.

What is important is that you should not be buying sex from a woman at all, as that is insulting her. You can proceed with her and have sex with her and give her money without it being like you are buying sex.

You don't have to ever treat her like she is someone who sells sex.

SJG

Salt Peanuts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaN-Hbm1…

To go further with my point about stigma causing negative mental effects, and it’s stigma that makes one a “whore” or a “John”…

Look how effectively Icey can stir the pot, once again, with all his stuff about tricks. Including right here in this very thread.

In contrast, 48-cowboy is an account that likes to insult boomers pretty often. And that account hasn’t even placed in the top 40 ignored members on this site for whatever reason.

For whatever reason, people are more comfortable with being thought of as a “boomer” instead of a “trick”

Instead of asking when it becomes a John-Whore relationship, ask instead when it becomes a personal relationship. You can be giving her money in a personal relationship. Most of the time women are getting money or other social benefit from the guys they fuck.

SJG

I think Drew’s recent comment is a pretty good statement that fits many of us.

I agree with Ishmael’s recent comment as well.

I don’t take issue with Icee calling me a trick. If his use of trick means I’m a customer in a sex for cash transaction, he’s correct. If he’s attempting to demean me or using trick in a pejorative manner, I’m not hurt.

Some women turn to stripping because they are desperate for money. I've thought about whether taking advantage of that by buying lap dances from them is immoral. I've decided it's not. Almost everyone works a job because they need money and I don't see why stripping is in a different category. The alternative to working a job is going on welfare and having others be forced to support you. Unlike many people, I think that is more immoral than being a stripper. I've always admired strippers because they are willing to work and support themselves.

What is true for stripping would be true for any other type of sex work. It's common for people to think illegal=immoral but there is no reason to think that. To me, someone is engaged in an immoral act if they are using force or fraud to gain a benefit. Two adults engaging in consensual behavior is not immoral.

Yes, shouldn't use that kind of loaded language. It accomplishes nothing.

Personal I don't care for SD and SB either.

I just like Mistress and if necessary say Sex Worker.

And it never get into anything which could ever be interpreted as unlawful if you don't want it to.

SJG

On denial that they're anything more than tricks and engaging in something illegal that varies from a misdemeanor to a felony depending on the specifics....

Meanwhile pretending to uphold some kind of moral high ground and ethics in threads on here. It's stupid.

Icey, I think the reason DrewCarey started this thread is that he is trying to have a reasonable discussion. Using emotionally charged language shuts down that reasonable discussion.

Drew is not denying that there are legal lines which could be crossed. He is not trying to uphold any moral high ground either.

FWIW, in CA, Prostitution and Soliciting are low level misdemeanors. Being a Pimp is a little bit higher level, but it is still a misdemeanor. The way they get a felony out of it is by charging it as pandering.

But I think what Drew is trying to talk about is what are the actual moral issues, and he is not just trying to proclaim himself as being on some moral high ground.

SJG

@nice: I agree, whore / john is rather stark and could be read as pejorative. Your point made me to reflect on my choice or words, and I think I partly went for those out of a preference for stark vs sugar coated, e.g. I would never call a stripper providing extras a mistress: I've had a mistress, and the two are not remotely the same thing.

Additionally, I find ho/trick to be a bit hard to believe unless you're in a 1970's Iceberg Slim novel, and I find it particularly disingenuous coming from middle aged white men who picked up the terms listening to hip hop.

Sex Worker is a bit generic, and could describe someone on either side of the extras divide, whatever it is.

So, what are good terms for pl/stripper when extras come into the equation?

I do agree that words have meaning, and that meaning matters.

I think it depends on what kind of a relationship you want to have with her.

For me, if I am engaging with her, she is a potential mistress.

Extras is a term I have never gone along with. Makes no sense.

SJG

Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers - Caravan ( Full Album )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGJRJTOE…

In a fully free society, no interaction between people that does not involve coercion or deception is illegal.

@SJG it's sad to see you constantly making fool of yourself with you childish thinking. Like the Beatles said, money can't buy you love. Commercial sex mostly addresses the sexual urges of our lizard brains. The more sophisticated sex workers can simulate the coos and soft moans of sexual satisfaction. If we temporarily suspend disbelief, we can get limited satisfaction of the desire to give as well as get sexual pleasure. If we permanently suspend disbelief as you seem to, that is, become delusional, we become the type of PL who totally shits on a sex worker's day.

ilbbainl, I am not the one who is being a fool. I love being with women in high heels and makeup. I know that they dress and paint up to stimulate a response. And I know that they could not afford to do that unless they knew that they were going to be getting money.

I have no problem with the situation.

But now matter what they say or do, there is no reason I need to talk to them like I see them as selling sex or sexual services, or as people who can be bought with money.

Most women are getting money or other social advantage through the men they fuck. If you were to try and outlaw that you'd have to outlaw marriage.

SJG

@drewcarey. I know it’s mostly common now, to distinguish by labeling as FSSW (full service sex worker), instead of a regular SW. I’ve never heard a specific way to describe customers that doesn’t end up somewhat derogatory. The words that aren’t negative are general and is customer/client/sugar daddy/etc

Not sure why. I guess the customers are more interested in hiding their activities than lobby for destigmatization idk

@nice: FSSW that's a new one to me! I like it. thx

@sjg: "I think the reason DrewCarey started this thread is that he is trying to have a reasonable discussion. Using emotionally charged language... etc, etc."

Yes that is correct, and thank you.

I think being a boomer is a good thing, nicespice 🤠

Now to the topic at hand. Whore and John are just labels. They are met to derogatory so I refuse to use them or feel defined by them. In a strip club we are paying for sexual excitement if it’s the cover charge and drink to just sit and watch or it’s tipping the dancer hundreds of dollars for full service. I say don’t worry about it do what you are comfortable with as long as both parties are happy it’s a good thing.

Drew, you can just tell other people that she is your friend. To her you can say that you are taking care of her, or that you are looking after her, or that you are keeping her.

She might tell people that she is being kept, or that she is a kept woman.

I think this is common and well understood in Europe, and in Latin American, and in Asia too, probably anywhere except in the US. And the US seems to be the only country which is so serious about enforcing the prostitution law. It is our history with the Puritans and with Prohibition.

SJG

The prostitution law is always hard to enforce.

And the interpretations on which LE feels it can enforce have changed vastly over the decades.

There is no real bright line test because it intersects with customs of marriage.

Most of the enforcement is always against the poor, immigrants, and minorities, and it is always extremely political.

https://www.bernardbraylaw.com/practice-…

SJG

There are terms. Prostitute snd customer. Hooker snd John. Whoremonger and whore. Hoe and trick.

If they sound pejorative is coz the interaction is pejorative.

Pretending it's anything other than what it is is delusional.

She's only fucking you coz you're paying her to.

You're making judgements about people and situations you know nothing of. And all Drew was doing was asking for reasonable discussion. He has never said that he has all the answers.

Icey, the one who is delusional is you. Real people do not fit into such nice neat and pejorative categories.

SJG

Herbie Hancock Maiden Voyage (Full Album)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6NRfitS…

^ you need to understand Iceefag has no positive life experience to draw from, so all he knows is sadness and misery,, and expects that’s the same all over its pathetic, but that’s Iceefag the most pathetic of losers.

If you pay a hooker for sex you're her customer. It's very simple.

As long as your relationship is contingent on you paying her that's what it is.

Yes, but you can fuck her and give her money without actually paying her for sex.

SJG

You can play with semantics...but....

It is not semantics. Most women are getting money or other social advantage through the guys they fuck.

They only have to make it straight money for sex if that is what the guy wants. It comes from him.

Usually new dancers in strip clubs are offended by P4P offers. But eventually they get tired of sitting home alone, so they learn to take it on the guy's terms. But this does not mean that this is what they want.

SJG

PBS Newshour
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wl2y4-sq…

@nice as you may have noticed, the TJ clubs always lead in the Top 40 rankings. The more broke chicks there are, the less sex workers change, and the more pressure they are under to provide services that involve the penis coming out of the pants. So PLs have a incentive to be pro-Republican, because that means more broke people in general, thus more broke chicks. But Republicans can't win without Bible-thumper votes. So PLs just have to hope that anti-sex-work laws will be symbolic, not strictly enforced. Liberals may support the Nordic model anyways. And their anti-poverty programs would push up the rates for commercial sexual services.

Sjg you're only lying to yourself

^^^^^ ilbbaicl, minor social programs will not be enough to restructure our economy. There will always be people on the margins. And there will always be prostitution. Some are more socially on the margins, rather than economically. And these tend to be the best, radicals.

Now true, this site and strip clubs do draw Republicans, but this is just because these are guys who believe that gender and race give them special privileges.

And it is not just the Republican Christian Right that wants to crack down on prostitution. It is also those who see themselves as moral up lifters, do gooders. They like to say that prostitution is "trafficking" and that sex workers are victims.

I nominate this thread of Drew's as one of TUSCL's best because it has drawn in people having at least 4 different POV's.

SJG

@ibai While I don’t doubt huge inequality, especially since it’s age skewed, contributes to sex work being more mainstream…I would hope it’s not the deciding factor to someone’s political views. ☹️

I don’t want to get caught up in a political flame war here, but I’ll just say that I blame the republican and democrat party equally. Nancy Pelosi isn’t exactly a good champion of the working class

^^^^^ I agree about Pelosi, and I can't stand Newsom at all.

SJG

I don't think lack of income is always the big driving factor in which women become FSSW either.

SJG

Of course needing money is the ultimate reason why women resort to prostitution.

The Republicans represent the part of the elite that see us as cattle. Biden and Pelosi represent the part of the elite that see us as dairy cows. It's better to get milked than be a steak dinner, when those are your choices.

@icee: "Meanwhile pretending to uphold some kind of moral high ground and ethics in threads on here. It's stupid."

This is interesting to me. This thread alone shows a variety of ethical positions. Obviously we don't all agree with one another all the time, but clearly there are ethical standards. Are you suggesting that whoremongers can have no ethics?

^ Icey knows more about anything than anyone. Just ask him.

I think whoremongers only lie to themselves when they sugarcoat their actions and their relationship with whores.

Snd it is very hypocritical to support conservative politics and social conservatism etc while paying hookers.

There are no winners in prostitution.

wrt sugarcoating I agree.

wrt social conservatism, I agree. It's still common, but you're right it's very hypocritical.

wrt conservative politics, I mostly disagree.

- gun nuts: don't care about SWs one way or the other
- free traders: probably the biggest single source of SW income, totally in line with their philosophy
- pro military: not sure about this, but everybody I know that was ever in the service over seas fucked about 10,000 SWs each
- bible thumpers: you're right, but see social conservatism above.
- Trumpers: if they do like daddy does, they are the biggest bunch of whoremongers in history.

Trump supporters conveniently ignore Sesta fosta

Icey, extreme financial need does not have to be there for a woman to go into sex work. A nice guy can just offer it to her. Maybe the first time she will refuse. But eventually she realizes that she is turning down guys she would otherwise be perfectly happy to go out with. So eventually she decides just to take it on the terms that they offer it. Its better than sitting home alone.

She does not need to have any unusual financial need, anything which goes beyond the needs of other people. All she wants is just to be able to pay her bills.

And sesta fosta is completely unconstitutional. It tries to strictly limit online hosts and hold them accountable for the words of other people whom they have no knowledge of or control over.

Trump went along with this just to support that portion of his base which is pro-censorship.

It was like Diane Feinstein and the Telecommunications Decency Act all over again, but on crank.

And Icey, you or I could see a girl out on the sidewalk, or in a strip club, one who just really gets to us. You or I could approach her and make something happen with her, which does include generosity, but which still is in no way treating her like a prostitute.

The main effect of LE in the picture is just to drive down the looks of the women and to suppress the sexy dressing and dolling up, until no one takes them seriously.

I am not talking about ever speaking to a woman in a manner which involves soliciting her or offering money for sex, or asking her to give a price quote. I am only talking about engaging with her when you have decided that you want to be waking up with her in the mornings.

SJG

https://jenniferfisherjewelry.com/collec…

Frampton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVCWaWFm…

By generosity you mean paying her for sex. That's the thing. The p4p dynamic makes it prostitution regardless of semantics

I mean showing a willingness to give her money, to pay her bills and expenses, and since she does not know you, buy demonstrating this generosity right off, like by handing her money.

And no, this does not make it fit the legal defn of prostitution, but that does not really make any difference either.

SJG

Jazz Messengers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3vpiTgG…

That's ridiculous. Giving her cash for sex or offering her money like that when you meet her is obvious solicitation.

You might say,

"
I like those high heels on you. I know you have expenses in coming here.
"

And then hand her $20. Handing women money in strip clubs is the norm.

On the sidewalk, handing her money would not be illegal, but you still might hold back a little and get her out of direct view from passers by first.

Remember, you've only approached her because you intend to be waking up with her in the mornings. And so you don't need to do this very often. Money is a show of care, concern, and of respect.

SJG

Jazz Messengers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3vpiTgG…

Jennifer Fischer
https://jenniferfisherjewelry.com/collec…

Do you actually do that?

Our streets are highly surveilled. But in strip clubs and AMPs yes. I would do it on the sidewalk if we had hotter looking girls.

SJG

Bus stop right near Recycled, my favorite book store.

In San Jose waiting for the bus while female is a crime. Cops always shaking then down, wanting their ID, searching their purses. I see it. Cops wait to see if they get on the bus. And the younger and nicer looking they are the worse the cops are. Coffee girls tell me about it too, how cops ask about what is in their purses item by item.

It sucks, it is unfair, and it is unconstitutional.

But this is what the obsession with eradicating prostitution has brought us. And in the suburbs it is worse.

SJG

Jazz Messengers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3vpiTgG…

Jennifer Fischer
https://jenniferfisherjewelry.com/collec…

Why would you be afraid to give her $20 and tell her she looks great and you know she has bills. It's legal.

And come on. There are attractive women everywhere


In a strip club you're tipping and paying for dances vip whatever because it's a business establishment and she's working.

Are they at a bus stop or the blade?

On the sidewalk in San Jose the only law is what the police say it is.

And no, we do not have attractive street hookers, very very rare. Last ones I have seen were years and years ago. Today they are all basically bag ladies. This is what the SJPD living only by its own rules has done. And it gets the mandate to do this because real estate prices are so inflated and residents photograph these women and post them on the neighborhood groups so that they will be watched continually.

Big problem in the economics of San Jose, not enough street hookers and the ones we have are not attractive at all.

Our re-development agency has always been tied to extreme law enforcement crack down tactics on street hookers.

This guy Ron Martinelli ran the hooker patrol in the early 80's. He and a police woman wrote this book. I listened to them on talk radio back then.
http://www.martinelliandassoc.com/founde…

The Stroll

He is a consultant now cause he teaches things a police officer could not. And you don't want to ever tangle with anyone like him. He claims to be an expert in "Gangs", and he testifies as such. All "gangs" means is minority youth.

And now he is attacking Black Lives Matter.
https://www.amazon.com/Truth-Behind-Matt…

SJG

Jennifer Fischer
https://jenniferfisherjewelry.com/collec…

Art Blakey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3vpiTgG…

I thought you were talking about women not hookers.... San Jose has a lot of attractive Mexican girls

Yes it does, but they are in bars and civvie night clubs. They and I get along well. But we are losing these bars already. And we are really lacking in strip clubs.

Things go well.

Remember, you don't need to often be approaching new women, not in your home town, because the one's you already know will more than keep you busy.

SJG

I have built relationships with many dancers over the years and I think a key point is this. If a lady is charging you a set fee for sex and she must be paid that is prostitution. But if there is no set fee and no expectation of payment then it becomes a friend's with benefits relationship. I have had several of these where we get together for mutual gratification and I help them with bills when they run low on cash but the don't ever ask me for money because they know I will take care of them best I can. Never once in my FWB relationship with a dancer have they asked me for money. I take care of their needs physically and emotionally as best I can.

^^^^ Awesome Insights, Thank You!


This Ronald Martinelli is former SJPD. He led the street prostitution crackdown in the early 80's which was in response to the Roy C. McLaren plan which was in support of the Re-Development Agency. Martinelli and a female officer wrote a book about this, "The Stroll".

Martinelli is one of the architects of the present state of martial law in San Jose where constitutional due process is suspended, where Waiting For The Bus While Female is a crime, and where residents photograph and monitor suspected street hookers and post about them on the Neighborhoods Groups in support of a hyper inflated real estate market.

Now he functions as a police consultant and he has taught courses on such things as Full Force Street Combat, and First Officer On the Scene Survival. He talks about things which a serving police officer could not.

We have this testimonial on his web site:

“Dr. Ron Martinelli is the police practices expert’s expert. He is uniquely experienced, articulate and understandable to judges and juries. He is very skilled, always dependable and consistently delivers the goods for his attorney clients.”

http://www.martinelliandassoc.com/founde…

He has testified as an expert on Gangs. And as it is used in the McLaren document, gangs just means racial minority youth.

He has testified as an expert on Cults. And this is simply a way of assigning criminal intents to activities which break no law.

Martinelli warrants renewed attention because he is promoting himself with a new book:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B095CZ…

SJPD did not conduct itself very well Summer 2020, and rumors about BLM and Antifa seem to have been a factor.

*******************************************************************



Louie Bellson & His Big Band 1983 Lew Soloff, Randy Brecker, Michael Brecker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWJFvJoR…

Frampton w/ Rob Arthur on his Nord 88
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5PgG4ak…

Frampton and Clapton, While My Guitar Gently Weeps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1ijcpo1…

GEORGE FEST - Norah Jones - SOMETHING @ Fonda 09-28-14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC42CJoB…

Led Zeppelin: Live on TV BYEN/Danmarks Radio [Full Performance]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-WSbMW7…

Jestrite50, thank you for that post.

What would you say about upfront generosity, like when you first meet the girl, like say in a strip club?

My view is that in some venues, like strip clubs, upfront generosity is expected. But this does not mean that you are paying her for sex. And it does not mean that you are as Icey talks about, violating the solicitation law. And besides, the law is not really what is important. What is important is that the girl you have selected comes to see that you have respectful and good intentions.

So as I see it you might best lead by handing her money. I talked about it being part of a compliment on her high heels. But that might not make sense for everyone.

You can get friendly with her, and continuing to feed her money, like front room dancing money will probably help. It isn't literally paying her for sex. It is just showing care, concern, respect, and good intentions.

Then things might progress to a Front Room Feel Up And Make Out Session, and then to the back room.

What I think got a reaction out of Icey was when I suggested that something like this would work out on the sidewalk with a Street Hooker.

Now some judgement would have to be used. San Jose operates under a state of martial law on the sidewalks.

San Francisco is usually not at all like that, and I have been approached by street hookers. Though I could have also approached them. Initial money, then backing myself up against the wall and intitating a preliminary makeout session would likely have worked.

It would have to be a girl I wanted to spend time with, and be generous with.

In those times I was not looking for that, and so I did not do anything like that, but I was very polite to them.

You don't always have to take things as they are offered. And you can give women money without asking for anything.

What say you Jestrite50?

SJG

Alice Coltrane & Carlos Santana - Illuminations [FULL ALBUM]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64OGEASK…

https://youtu.be/epbOHloSpZM

Women realize what a man's intention is when he offers her money with the expectation of sex in return. Anyways lie to yourselves all you want

^ Here we have a post from a moron who supposedly is in the hospital getting treatment for some vague ailment, what a fuckn waste of oxygen

Icey, Women are getting money from men all the time. They don't mind it.


Jestrite50

To me it seems like when you are first meeting the girl, the most important thing is to show your good will and respect, and to get the girl shifted from trying to hustle you, to following your lead.

So pressing money into her hand as soon as she is within arms reach is obvious.

You want to have ways of conveying money to her without making it look like you are trying to buy something or low bid anything.

So for me, complimenting her on her high heels is an obvious one. I can say something once, but I can't go beyond that. I do want her to be in high heels when she is with me. And she will be with me outside, and regularly, very soon.

And the important thing about her high heels is that they cost her money. So it isn't like I am trying to buy any kind of service from her, or trying to low bid anything.

I got this idea from an AMP girl. I skipped out at lunch time and went into a new AMP. Very rare, a Vietnamese AMP girl who was a little big chubby. She was very pretty and nicely painted up.

So I paid the house fee and things began, and soon we were doing a lot of DFKing. Then I just said something because I liked her strapped on high heels, and I was taking her dress off of her.

She asked me, "Will you buy me those shoes?"

What a perfect question. So of course I told her yes, and in effect I did buy them for her.

It makes perfect sense for someone who likes to keep women in high heels. It shows care, concern and respect, and it opens a third way, that is not asking for anything for free, but nor is it paying her for sex.

So you invent ways to convey money to her, and you get her to follow your lead and to not hustle you.

Never tried this with a sidewalk hooker, but in lots of situations in San Francisco I think it would have worked just fine. I'd of backed myself up against the wall and began our preliminary makeout session as we got to know each other and as I demonstrating generosity, and then we'd be wearing out a mattress and waking up in the morning together.

SJG

Doesn't seem like they could do this live. Need to have a backing track, otherwise Paul McCartney would be playing bass and piano at the same time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfSQkZuI…

MonaLisa Twins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCprklY9…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKRle7mg…

^^^^ They do alright leaving the keyboard out.

I think the piano bass makes a big difference. But you only have it in this studio version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu2pVPWG…

This guy has got synth piano bass, it just isn't very high in the mix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oX2FSv4…

Ray Manzarek Robby Krieger @ Arena Moscow, Moscow Russia - June 30th, 2012
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZyM1k2d…

The Doors with Eddie Vedder - 1993 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Induction and Performance( My Favorite Things)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IJsPzUJ…

It's about the dynamics of the monetary exchange and what its contingent on

And as I am explaining it, it is just a show of generosity and respect. Her high heels shoes do cost her money. She has expenses to be in the strip club, or out on the sidewalk.

SJG

Posting on a message board is not sleep.

SLEEP!

"At what point do PL-Dancer become John-Whore"

Preferably as soon as possible.

===> "The more broke chicks there are, the less sex workers change, and the more pressure they are under to provide services that involve the penis coming out of the pants. So PLs have a incentive to be pro-Republican, because that means more broke people in general, thus more broke chicks."

You do realize tat countries with far left socialist/communist systems are some of the world's biggest sources of sex workers, no? Shit who knows how many Happy Endings are delivered each day in the United States by Cuban strippers/prostitutes and AMP girls from N. Korea and China. Republicans empower people while left leaning policies ultimately enslave them.

Rick you don't need to look at it that way when interacting with the women. You don't need to reduce them to just mechanical service providers.

SJG

Sjg I think you really do care about the girls and see it as more so to you that's your interpretation. But itsbfar from yhe norm

Thanks ICEY.

What is the name of the drug they gave you? Is it anti-viral, anti-histamine, or immuno suppressant?

Watch out for allergic reactions. These would be far more dangerous than COVID. If there are signs you must stop the medication at once.

SLEEP!

SJG

MonaLisa Twins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCprklY9…

@rd not even AOC wants to turn the US into China or North Korea. But anyways, it's unreasonable to expect you to even vaguely comprehend reality, given that decades of heavy drinking have left with you with few functioning brain cells.

Sjg azithromycin it's an antibiotic but is used for covid. Some steroids. Hearts meds. It's like 15 meds in all.

^ Azithromycin (along with HCQ and zinc) is the Trump cocktail. Get Paxlovid, molnupiravir, Veklury, and/or antibodies.

Personally, I've somehow always preferred the British term punter to john.

He's full of shit no reputable hospital is giving him a Z-Pac for either Covid or what ever heart ailment he is claiming, why do you guys pay a scintilla of attention to this prevaricator.

^ Because he's using Republican medicine.

^ Not even Trump used that shit when he was hospitalized as Walter Reed last year.
None of the big name Republicans got any of that shit either, they got anti-virals and mono-clonal antibodies.

I'm on diltiazem azithromycin enoxaparin budedonide ipratropium prednisone and a saline solution . I was on more before. It's not republican medicine. I don't care what it is as long as it helps.

^^^ I choose to believe you meant "barstool".

Actually, I misread that completely. Don't mind me. Low-grade stroke in progress apparently...

The good news is that I won't post from the "hospital."

If azithromycin is an anti-biotic, then it probably is not anti-viral. They might be giving it to you in case of a secondary infection.

https://www.drugs.com/azithromycin.html

They might be concerned about pneumonia.

Hope you are doing okay now.

And the best remedy remains sleep, until you know that you are well.

SJG

Jennifer Fischer
https://jenniferfisherjewelry.com/collec…

I think you’re telling me that I should stop paying theses girls after I have sex with them.

Dugan would like that!

diltiazem azithromycin enoxaparin budedonide ipratropium prednisone

I have never heard of anyone being on so many pharmaceuticals.

azithromycin anti-biotic

Diltiazem is used to treat high blood pressure and to control angina (chest pain). Diltiazem is in a class of medications called calcium-channel blockers. It works by relaxing the blood vessels so the heart does not have to pump as hard. It also increases the supply of blood and oxygen to the heart.

Enoxaparin is an anticoagulant that helps prevent the formation of blood clots.


Enoxaparin is used to treat or prevent a type of blood clot called deep vein thrombosis (DVT), which can lead to blood clots in the lungs (pulmonary embolism). A DVT can occur after certain types of surgery, or in people who are bed-ridden due to a prolonged illness.

Enoxaparin is also used to prevent blood vessel complications in people with certain types of angina (chest pain) or heart attack.

Budesonide is used to treat Crohn's disease (a condition in which the body attacks the lining of the digestive tract, causing pain, diarrhea, weight loss, and fever). Budesonide is in a class of medications called corticosteroids. It works by decreasing inflammation (swelling) in the digestive tract of people who have Crohn's disease.

Ipratropium oral inhalation is used to prevent wheezing, shortness of breath, coughing, and chest tightness in people with chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD; a group of diseases that affect the lungs and airways) such as chronic bronchitis (swelling of the air passages that lead to the lungs) and emphysema (damage to the air sacs in the lungs). Ipratropium is in a class of medications called bronchodilators. It works by relaxing and opening the air passages to the lungs to make breathing easier.

Prednisone is used alone or with other medications to treat the symptoms of low corticosteroid levels (lack of certain substances that are usually produced by the body and are needed for normal body functioning). Prednisone is also used to treat other conditions in patients with normal corticosteroid levels. These conditions include certain types of arthritis; severe allergic reactions; multiple sclerosis (a disease in which the nerves do not function properly); lupus (a disease in which the body attacks many of its own organs); and certain conditions that affect the lungs, skin, eyes, kidneys blood, thyroid, stomach, and intestines. Prednisone is also sometimes used to treat the symptoms of certain types of cancer. Prednisone is in a class of medications called corticosteroids. It works to treat patients with low levels of corticosteroids by replacing steroids that are normally produced naturally by the body. It works to treat other conditions by reducing swelling and redness and by changing the way the immune system works.

Take care of yourself ICEY. The only real cure for COVID is still sleep.

Are you out of the hospital now?

SJG

Weather Report - Live at Montreux (1976) [Remastered] (really good!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfvfXA2S…

^ Icey's real problem isn't COVID, it's called Severe Attention-Seeking Disorder.

^^^^^ Tetradon, that sounds like the reason you post.

SJG

Weather Report - Live at Montreux (1976) [Remastered]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfvfXA2S…

^ If I wanted attention, I would say more controversial shit, troll people with a better reputation here than Icey, post dramatic personal stories, and insult all forms of P4P.

If I wanted attention, which I could care less about, I'm doing it way the fuck wrong.

You're trying to make it look like you are not an attention whore.

It isn't working.

SJG

Weather Report - Live at Montreux (1976) [Remastered]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfvfXA2S…

^ You're trying to make it look like your opinion of me matters.

It isn't working.

Tetradon, you are not very convincing.

SJG

Let's see if anyone else thinks so. No one here cares about your opinion of much of anything.

^^^^ And I know you are looking in the mirror and speaking to yourself.

SJG

Weather Report - Live at Montreux (1976) [Remastered]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfvfXA2S…

The "I know you are, but what am I?" defense
Original. Cogent. Reasoned.

You can think of better stuff than that to post.

SJG

Weather Report - Live at Montreux (1976) [Remastered]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfvfXA2S…

You don't require, or deserve, much thought from me.

Just about 1000 meaningless bickering posts.

SJG

Weather Report - Live at Montreux (1976) [Remastered]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfvfXA2S…

Half of which, by definition, come from you and all your threats which you'll never back up.

Your quest to make this board intellectual is tilting at windmills, kind of like your org.

Now unfollowing my own post...

You are mistaken on all counts.

SJG

You become trick and hoe at the moment you exchange cash for sexual gratification of any kind.

It's not bad in and of itself. But the dynamics of the interaction define whether it's good or bad. Are you taking advantage of a desperate woman? Are you being coercive? Is she trafficked? Are you cheating on your SO? Do you project negative views onto her? Eo you feel you are paying for. Service or act like you own her? Your views on women. Do you misunderstand the nature of the relations? Those are the questions to ask yourself.

Well, the relationship becomes what you both want it to be. Money is part of life, so it is part of most things. But this does not necessarily mean it is bad.

SJG

Sjg give it a rest. You can act as delusional as you want but all you've ever described on this site is paying for gfes

No Eltriste that is not so. I have always advocated selecting the girl you want and treating her in a 100% civilian way.

What comes of that depends upon you and she.

Never act like money buys her, motivates her, or like she sells sex or sexual services or is a prostitute.

SJG

You know to pay her and you know she would not be there if you didn't pay. You don't act like it's a gfe but are fully aware that it is

No it is not a GFE if you are open and honest with her and never act like money buys her. I learned this from my very first experiences in strip clubs.

She is there to get money and she uses it to pay her bills. So generosity is a show of respect

SJG

X - Beyond and Back (HQ) Live 1980
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVICRYqZ…

Yeah that's a gfe

Drew isnt hand on boob part of a lapdance? How can that be relevant to the question of drawing the line between lapdance and sex work

The concept of "paying" for sex is one of the biggest tricks overweight and/or ugly women have played on us. If you think about it dating and marriage is just the same. You are paying a woman with your time and/or money in hopes of retribution. Its just in marriage/dating you have a lower chance of winning.

This whole need for labels is ludicrous. Like it's that much more noble for a girl to do what's necessary to give you a boner than it is for her to finish the job. The shit that people rationalize as OK vs. not OK in this business wouldn't make a lick of difference in the views that many outsiders have of this thing.

NJBalla unless you date or marry a woman as rich as you or richer. And if you look good you may get lots of sex for free. But yes, its better to spend on a lapdance than spend on a date or give free money! Many times marriage simply is a long term escorting agreement where you don’t even have freedom to exit as you please without big losses.

I stand by the posts I made 4 months ago on this needlessly bumped thread.

SJG is a useless retard.

I didn't read this super long thread but I hope we all came to the agreement that hookers are awesome?

Also sex is one of the only things I can think of that costs more money when you buy wholesale than retail

A lap dance is different from sucking a dick. It's not a stretch to rationalize that difference


Also human relations aren't based on monetary exchanges. If your relationships are you're doing it wrong

Yeah Eltriste there was this one member here that tried to use money to get his coke junkie stripper whore just to talk to "him". "He" offered her $5K to do it and she declined. That's so wrong! Amirite, my niggette? 🤭🤡

This is a troll-bumped thread.