A formula for converting civie women

It must be pretty shitty to ask for sex from someone in a desperate situation. I just can’t do it.

There are 3-ways to do well w/ civvies:

+ be way above avg in looks

+ have way above avg dick-size

+ have a well above avg wallet

I may need to move to Ethiopia

I don’t think I could proposition someone unless I had a pretty good idea they were open to it. You just don’t do that.

I'll gently point out that a lot of guys in here chat happily about how to spot financially strapped strippers and use their desperation to leverage OTC or ITC extras.

I'll admit that it feels extra predatory to pressure someone who is not in the sex industry at all into P4P. I'm no angel, but I'm not quite that horrible.

But, there really are only shades of grey between what Willy is suggesting and using financial leverage to get in the pants of a clean(ish) stripper.

Also, Willy, you put forth this "formula" like you've stumbled across the Rosetta stone. I'm pretty sure that leveraging financial vulnerability into sex has been around for a good long while...

In this particular instance the context is I go to a cheap massage parlor that is at least mostly a real massage place. I think though since the women work for tips and get barely any other wages they are open to more.

I'm curious on the specifics of the ethical issues people have.

I like the formula from The Shield, if you remember one of the greatest TV shows of all time.

You can turn out any woman. ANY Woman. You just need to find something she desperately wants. Give it to her freely. When she thinks she can't live without it, threaten to take it away.

I've never used it to turn a woman out, but it works for everything else.

That's what happens when you think you can't get sex any way other than P4P....

P4P is by nature taking advantage of a woman's plight... if she could do something else, she would. Whether she's a pro or semi pro. Its why hoes have no problem fucking tricks over, they hate them.


Getting a girl to hoe for you... that's another topic...

Ive never used a dancer's desperation against her. that's predatory imo. If a dancer wants to offer services on her own, im open to listening.

WILLYSGOTAWOMAN, you’ve left out the most important part of any brilliant system: you have to wear a cheap suit and claim you’re a chemical engineer! ;)

-->"Ive never used a dancer's desperation against her. that's predatory imo"

Don't you think the mere fact that she's in a strip club, to some extent reflects that she has few options?

-->"If a dancer wants to offer services on her own, im open to listening."

Now I'm confused -- don't you think a dancer who pro-actively "offers services" is likely far more desperate than a stripper who just considers offers?

I'm not picking on you rh. I actually think this is an area fraught with contradictions and hypocrisy -- I'm quite certain that if I examined my own views, there might be areas where I get all indignant about ethics, and others where others get indignant with me.

For myself, my very loose and probably contradictory thoughts:

- I have ideas on when I think it's ok and when it's not ok to proposition a civilian. In the sugaring world, this is actually a well-known activity they call "Freestyling". But I've never actually done it, maybe being a little conflicted

- As far as I'm concerned, strippers and sugarbabies are "in the game". I don't seek the exploit them, but am always looking for win-win. On the other hand, if I'm honest, what does the fact that I specifically go to the SC on the slowest days and times mean? And on SA, I've met girls from Stanford and Berkeley, these are elite women who just happen to be going to expensive schools and live in the most expensive area in the country, if they weren't "desperate", would they be meeting with me in the first place? My strategy is to acknowledge they're adults who have chosen to be in the game, I treat them fairly, and that's as far as I've gotten.

Subraman said "Don't you think the mere fact that she's in a strip club, to some extent reflects that she has few options?"

Sometimes, but not always. I've encountered dancers who left the business, but returned. When asked why, their answer amounted to "I didn't like working that hard for less money."

So... the option is there. It's just harder.

Ish, definitely true. In nearly all cases, there's the option of working for less (sometimes far less) money. Although if it's not a wage she can live on, is it really an option? Like I said, I don't know that it's worth getting too wrapped around that axle. She's an adult, she's chosen to be in the sex industry; I don't feel it's unethical to be part of the sex industry, I don't feel bad about looking for a good deal for myself, but I'm not looking to fuck anyone over.

All very true. But I do feel like a line is crossed when you're looking to leverage desperation into sex from someone who is not in the adult industry.

Honestly, I don't actively try to find / target strippers that are three months behind on rent. I ask for what I want. Either she's in or out.

I’m not getting the desperation the same way you guys are intending it, is there some problems you guys have with sex workers, that’s their inventory, if it’s stops selling then it might be desperation, this conversation is flawed on its entire premise.

^^^ I don't understand what you're asking. Not being facetious. Perhaps I'm a bit slow in the late afternoon...

===> "But, there really are only shades of grey between what Willy is suggesting and using financial leverage to get in the pants of a clean(ish) stripper. "

As soon as I saw the original post it was obvious where this was going. 😉

Oh, and baloney. A girl who is already getting naked and rubbing on hard ons for rent money, along with running various hustles, is far removed from one who is simply working a vanilla job trying to make ends meet. The former is working in a sexualized environment and using her assets to turn guys on for money, while the latter is not. These are night and day and the stripper is far closer to that next step than some girl working in the local convenience store who would never dream of taking her clothes off for money.

Oh, and as far as the guys saying crap like "I would never seek out a dancer who is desperate blah blah blah", I call that the willful ignorance approach. For you it's perfectly OK if she agrees to sex because she's desperate as long as you don't know about it. You're the same types of guys who love eating a steak, but don't want to confront the reality that a cow had a bolt shot into its brain so that the steak could be put on your plate. 😉

@CMI if this is the business they’ve chosen, then the rest of this convo is a circle jerk, if they hadn’t chosen to be here but are coerced than by all means avoid but, that’s not the case most of the time here.

OP is this some kind of epiphany for you? Any sugar daddy site or strip club are largely full of economically desperate women (no they are not desperate for your cock). They were morally flexible enough to make that choice to solve their financial dilemma.

I disagree the majority would do it (for moral, religious, family or other personal reasons) but there are allot that do.

Second what RickDugan said regarding the obvious difference between strippers and women working vanilla jobs.

OP, it’s sounds like you’re saying that every woman would let some strange dude fuck her if she were poor enough.
I’m going to politely disagree.
There are many women that simply would not do that no matter how poor they are. Hell, there are women that despite being desperately poor (and having the body for it) won’t even dance, let alone turn to prostitution. I’m not saying anything about their character, because I have no issue with the women that will do that. I’m just saying by your logic, there is an economic point by which people will commit sex acts they don’t want to do in exchange for money. Like how poor would you have to be to fuck a nasty lady or suck a gay guy off? Does everyone have a price? I know no matter how poor I’ve been, there’s things I won’t do. I imagine many women feel the same.
My guess is if she hasn’t already signed up to strip or be an escort and is a civi-woman that you trying to get her to turn a trick for some cash isn’t going to end well.

One can argue most people do w/e job they do b/c "they have to" not b/c they want to (stripper or not) - one can argue 3/4 of people, perhaps even 9 out of 10; would prefer to not have to work or do the job they are currently doing.

As has been posted; some on here see a stripper going thru a tough-time as an opportunity for themselves - to each their own; we are not all wired the same - as for me if a stripper is going thru a tough time the first thought that comes to my mind is not "bingo I see an opening for me here" - I don't mind asking a dancer for what I want but I won't work her or look for w/e vulnerability I can spot in order to get something she's apprehensive and seemingly on the fence about at best if not having a really tough time w/ it - I'll inquire to see if there may be interest in her part but I won't try to push every button to try and convince her or lure her if she doesn't seem down with it.

w.r.t. civilians - yeah I would not propose P4P to any random chick I see (although I would if she seems "the type" per se but of course I'd try to be tactful about it) - that I can recall I've met at least 2 strippers in a civilian setting which after some initial chit-chat I just asked them if they were dancers and it just so happened they were and I eventually met-up w/ them in their club - likewise I've met some civilian chicks that were down for P4P - but of course it's always a crapshoot at best.

I think some guys have a bit of whitenight syndrome or of been whipped by women and are thus afraid of "crossing any line w/ a woman"- I'm def no player but in my life I've seen guys that are bold vs "Mr Proper" get way more pussy than "Mr Proper" - not saying there aren't lines that should not be crossed but there's something to be said for going for it vs being "Mr Nice".

Most of these chicks in the sex-biz (e.g. stripping) are not studying to become nuns - most have probably been sexually active from a young-age and most are hot enough where they will usually have a guy(s) they are fucking IRL but may act w/ RILs as if they are chaste virgins - i.e. many inexperienced RILs see it as some badge of honor that they never ask for sex from a CF they've spent $1000s on b/c their CF "really appreciates they being such gentlemen" - meanwhile she is fucking and sucking a dude(s) IRL and treating them to dinner and drugs w/ the $$$ the RIL gives her while the RIL is sitting at home alone w/ blueballs.

i.e. being a chivalrous whitenight is often just being an easy-mark; but there are also certain circumstances discretion is the better part of valor.

w.r.t. the OP - it comes across to me as him making a harmless statement - no need for anyone here of all places to get on some kinda pedestal and start calling anyone out - one can have a differing opinion but don't try to come across as some bastion of morality.

and there *is* merit to what the OP states - not all financially-challenged women will do P4P but one can argue most women that do P4P is due to financial-challenges; kinda stating the obvious but gives credence to the OP - Tijuana and the German FKKs would not be what they are if what the OP describes was not at play and likely the dominat factor.

As to the morality of it - people will use whatever gifts they have - e.g. a big strong guy can use his body to make good $$$ being a professional athlete; etc - one can argue an attractive woman is doing the same.

To summarize:

- Strippers are in the game; they are adults and this is the decision they've made.

- I can't know exactly what situation a stripper is in. But I do know my own intentions: not to fuck anyone over. Although, like any consumer, I do put myself in situations where I can get good value.

Subra - I know some dancers are dancing bc they don't feel like they have other options. But I believe (or want to believe anyway) that most dancers are there bc they enjoy it and if they are offering extras it is b.c. they enjoy sex (hj/bj/fs) and if they can make some extra cash because if it great. That's why I say if they want to offer it im good with it. Not all dancers are good with extras.

If a dancer says I'm short on rent, or bills but has never been an extras dancer, I'm not going to use it as way to make them one.

That doesn't mean I won't ask about extras at other times, but I won't use their desperation for it.

Don't know if that makes any more sense.

"... If a dancer says I'm short on rent, or bills but has never been an extras dancer, I'm not going to use it as way to make them one ..."

In a nutshell how I feel

i have met many girls that strip because it can be good easy money.
likewise for sex. and some actually ENJOY IT!

my job i put up with because of the money. it started simple and became increasingly complex as time passed. there was definitely a moment that I came to think that I actually sold my soul for a paycheck.

^^^^ agreed, some really do like it, the sex, and just the attention too. Even if they don't do sex ITC, the girls like the OTC.

Great Girls!

SJG

===> "If a dancer says I'm short on rent, or bills but has never been an extras dancer, I'm not going to use it as way to make them one. "

I'm building a statue in your honor as we speak. It has angel wings, a halo, gleaming white armor and an outstretched sword with "In Defensionem Sui Pudoris" (Latin for "in defense of her chastity") engraved on the side. It's beautiful man. 😉

We'll have to agree to disagree. For me this is exactly when I hope I'll run into her. From a practical standpoint, it will be a far better use for her pussy than giving it away to the fucktard who isn't supporting the kid(s) that already sprang from it. From a weepy morality perspective, it sure beats having the lights shut off. And if she disagrees with this, then all she has to do is say no. I never hard sell, I just make it as easy as possible for her to say yes.

^ But again, I am posting this about girls who are already using their tits and their asses in a sexualized environment to earn a living. If they aren't impossibly naive, they should fully expect, given what they already do, that some guys want to take it one step further. Approaching a civilian girl far removed from that activity is an entirely different kettle of fish.

So in a nutshell, if she met me in a civilian setting seeking assistance, I'd bend over backwards to find her to an assistance program and, depending upon the circumstances, maybe even pull together a group of people to help her out. I'd consider it 's part of my community outreach obligation and the type of thing Mrs. Dugan and I are often involved with. But if she is using her tits and ass in a strip club setting to try to make my dick hard so my brain goes soft, then she's fair game in return.

I'm surprised this turned into an ethics lecture and I have some shit to say:

1) Save the six figure salary I don't like me job. The paycheck does help me deal with the stress and boredom though. So it goes in a capitalist society...

2) The only person I'm using this formula on has gone from dirt poor to owning her own car since she figured out giving a HJ at the end of a massage for select male customers improves her financial situation. I say good for her!

3) The shitty part of the formula I presented is that a person is financially desperate. Its just my perspective but I would much rather give a guy HJ (no I'm not gay) than wonder where my next meal is coming from. Sex Work beats poverty any day.

@Bavarian -

“It must be pretty shitty to ask for sex from someone in a desperate situation. I just can’t do it.”

I understand the sentiment and have sometimes felt the same way.

But I am a generous man. I am often among the first to step forward to help a woman in financial distress, especially if she looks hotter than molten iron, is practically naked, and encourages me to feel of her pussy while she rubs my cock and entices me with promises that “we can have so much more fun in the privacy of the VIP room.”

In such situations it can be very difficult to tell who is taking advantage of whom.

I'm more in agreement with rh48rh and Papi on this. Less so with Rick. I may post more later, but don't have the bandwidth for it right now.

I like the reverend's comment

a woman who isn't desperate won't be selling her body...

For those shedding a tear for the dancer who succumbs to an OTC offer when she is in need, do you think that your favorite dancer would shows similar restraint when the shoe is on the other foot? Do you think that she turns down money when she knows that it's coming from a lonely and needy guy who can't really afford to spend it?

I can tell you that my ATF and the runner up to that title were masters in cleaning out dumb needy shits. They were both beautiful, engaging, not extras girls and each was a shark when she smelled blood in the water.The former cleaned a guy out so good that he had to take on a second job to pay off his maxed out credit cards and the latter actually had a guy crying, sobbing "don't break up with me" when the day came that he couldn't pay her anymore.

The only reason I ever landed either OTC was because I was patient and waited for opportunity to present itself. It took months with each of them, but this was a club I liked to hang out in anyway so it was no big deal. But make no mistake, if I was as lonely and desperate as those two fucknuts and others they dealt with I'm sure, then they would have been fucking me in an entirely different way.

I'm not going to condemn all dancers for the actions of some. That is just like saying all people of a race or religion are bad because some of them did bad things. I choose not to live my life so cynically. That's me, I know not everyone will agree eith me and that's ok too.

Two comments:

#1 I’m sure money helps in an indirect manner when giving a female gifts or whatnot. But no, most females don’t want to feel like a prostitute.

For example, the friends from the first university I went to who (not outright, since their political views forces them to pretend to be more “open minded”) view my transition to a stripper as me making a bad choice in life. Despite that one of them is currently dating a dude in his 40s and he had to move in with her due to financial issues. One of them has casual sex with more than one guy as she pleases. Another one I think wants a relationship but keeps falling into one night stands instead, but not too sure the progression.

But anyways, I’m the one with issues who doesn’t respect my body. *shrug*

#2 I can’t speak for all dancers, but I can say for me personally, my conscience is pretty clean and I don’t consider myself a predator at all with customers.

I don’t ask and I don’t care how much any man makes. I don’t try to force any customer any type of substance to impair judgement. Nor do I engage in any kind of major deception past fudging personal information about myself or saying something that would “kill the fantasy” while dancing or chit chatting with him.

And when a customer starts getting into needy mode, I just flat out stop replying to him. I derive no satisfaction from “cleaning out” any man’s bank account.

Plus, every once in a while, a man will give me a lot more money than the situation called for, but he does it knowingly and willingly and I don’t really demand it. I make enough money even without those occasional moments of awesomeness to not feel the need to fuck anyone over and squeeze out a few more dollars.

===>"I'm not going to condemn all dancers for the actions of some. "

Who is condemning them for it? The girls in my story were no different than many dancers out there except that some dancers don't have the skills to pull off the hustles that they did. But skills or not It's a rare dancer who won't take down a score if she can.

There is probably no place you can go where "caveat emptor" holds greater meaning than in a strip club. It is what it is. There is nobody there to protect you from your own poor spending decisions - indeed they will actively induce you to make bad choices if they can. In turn, dancers quickly learn that there is a subset of club customers who will encourage them to do things they might not otherwise do. It's just the nature of the beast.

I agree 100% with Ataboy's comments. The OP makes it sound like every woman desperate for money will eventually be game for P4P. That's simply not true. Approaching a broke civie woman with that angle probably more than half the time will get you slapped or worse.

Approaching desperate, non extras strippers on the other hand I can see why that might be more successful.

—>“except that some dancers don't have the skills to pull off the hustles that they did.”

Possibly an ignorant question, but if they are so sly and slick with what they do, why in the hell were they bragging about fleecing one customer to another customer?

And not even in the sense of negotiating higher priced OTC services (“well since HE gave me $1500 for OTC then I expect the same from you”) but in the sense of actively bragging about a guy being put into an emotional state that some may consider consider...demasculating.

^ A different hustle for a different type of customer. They had me spending on them too, so it worked, albeit part of my spending was OTC.

But I also saw pieces of both happening in real time, so it wasn't in a vacuum. They each knew me well enough to know that I would find it funny. The runner-up even entertained me by showing me a string of texts that the weird dude sent.

rh484 your comment seems to be responding to something no one said

—>”^ A different hustle for a different type of customer.”

Makes sense. You seem to genuinely admire the antics, and I do believe there is a certain amount of like attracts like that can’t be (entirely) faked.

I was about to retort back that if they were such amazing hustlers, then they wouldn’t deal with a customer like you. But on the other hand, sometimes the value a customer can provide is very indirect. So perhaps you made them feel awesome about themselves, which in turn made it easier to get money off another gent.

Which is definitely an effective thing. There is one patron who is a regular at one club who is of the “I dont tip or buy dances but I’ll buy you a drink” variety but is darn good about keeping dancers locked at his table for a while. And flattery was how I believe he succeeded.

He did the same with me at one point, with saying how awesome of a hustler I was for a new girl (I lied about how long I had been working as a dancer) among other things. I stopped bothering to sit at his table anymore after that but other girls seemed to enjoy hanging out there just fine. I guess if nothing else to get buzzed.

...Which back on topic, effective use of flattery (which I’m guessing is what is it that is working in Dugan’s ATF cases,but I could be wrong) is also a good skill to cultivate if the goal is getting women, whether stripper or civie.

why such a distinction about sex? Any other line of work s person who needs money and refuses to work is lazy or a fool.

===> "I was about to retort back that if they were such amazing hustlers, then they wouldn’t deal with a customer like you. But on the other hand, sometimes the value a customer can provide is very indirect. So perhaps you made them feel awesome about themselves, which in turn made it easier to get money off another gent. "

You know what they say about assuming. It makes and ass out of you and...well...you. 😉

Do you really think that girls sit with me over and over, visit after visit, without getting paid? If I find a girl entertaining barside, she'll earn something for her efforts and nice stage tips to boot. Maybe not what she'd earn by stacking dances, but definitely more than she'd earn doing nothing in the DR during a quiet spell. The drinks are just a bonus.

I may be charming and handsome (lol), but even so do you really think that a drink buying piece of furniture would have all of the OTC stories that I do? Sheesh nice. 😀

->“but definitely more than she'd earn doing nothing in the DR during a quiet spell. The drinks are just a bonus.”

...Which is exactly what I’m doing right now. But I wouldn’t say it’s doing “nothing” persay. I get to either read kindle books or play phone games or scroll through social media. 😁

But no, I’m not claiming the charms are related to you being club furniture. (Perhaps only Juice has that privilege) It’s about dealing with these amazing and hot hustlers who would nonetheless accept a lowball OTC offer. Unless of course there was bullshit in your story somewhere but I am choosing to believe there’s not.

^ Damned nice, first I'm club furniture and now I'm an OTC lowballer? Remember that old adage about assuming? 😀

If she seems desperate and not into it I am not participating. It has to be mutually beneficial on multiple levals for me or I am not interested. Maybe that's my problem - a PL with a conscious.

It may reduce my odds but I am OK with that.

“...I’m club furniture and...I’m an OTC lowballer...”

Just thought I’d be brilliant and fix it for you rickdugan. ;)

But don’t sell yourself short. Your cheap suits also make you a fashion icon. In fact, I even found your photo on a fashion website:

https://www.halloweencostumes.com/mens-l…

Aww c’mon I thought I was paying a compliment. Who doesn’t want to think of himself as somebody who has a certain ability to make somebody feel good about herself?

Oh sure, I used the term “lowball” but take that in context since most here would have a different definition than I do. You included.
https://www.tuscl.net/discussion.php?id=…

BUT on the other hand, the kind of hard hustle dancers who would run romance hustles on customers and think it’s entirely fair for a customer to get second job on her behalf, I’m ~assuming~ would be more likely to agree with my definition of lowball—or perhaps say that the number should be even higher.

🤓

Nice, you sound an awful lot like someone who doesn't have a grounded sense of the value of money, nor of the need some girls have to clear a certain amount of it.

I guess some girls don't have the luxury of dancing part time for giggles and, when the club is slow, shrugging it off and playing games in the DR. These girls have kids to support, family overseas who they send money to, other people they support (aging parents, deadbeat SOs), etc. They also may need to find extra lump sums for events like Christmas, kids' birthdays, unexpected car repairs, etc.

For some of those girls, a few hundred for a short stop on the way home suddenly doesn't sound so bad when the club is quiet, especially from a guy who already gave them cash and booze ITC.

It's weird how the troll accounts om here always write about this stuff like they read about it in a book. Just sayin. 😉

I think some of you feel very guilty because there's a very clear pattern in your posts, they're basically all about justifying soliciting hookers by any means necessary.

Who is behind the nicespice troll account?

Call me a delusional narcissistic nut job (and you will) but when I am having sex with somebody I am under the impression that this is the most magical moment in that persons life up to that point. They should be honored, no?

RickDugan Said,

"Nice, you sound an awful lot like someone who doesn't have a grounded sense of the value of money, nor of the need some girls have to clear a certain amount of it."

Wow! Nicespice has no idea of the value of a dollar because she is not a rob? Or is not interested in fleecing cuztomers?

Hmmmm